Help - I need to move to the middle of nowhere

[Coyote_Bandit]

Small acreage, small house. Surrounding area is rural and sparsely populated. Most mom and pop stores have been forced out of business by the big box stores already. There is no real need there for services related to any of my past work experiences (insurance, investments, law). There are already folks there providing those services and the small, mostly low income population likely cannot support additional professionals in these areas.

Any idea how to make money if I were to do this?

Not expecting to get filthy rich - just want to be able to survive. I have allergies to environmental and chemical pollutants and over the past several years they have worsened. A lot. Yesterday was another ozone day here. We've had 13 exceedences this summer and many other days that had dirty air. It's been miserable. I do not expect it to improve a lot in the near future.

Assume that whatever venture I undertake will be entirely new to me. Assume I will have some available capital and no significant debt. Also, assume it will be a solo venture. Whatever goods or services I offer can be made available either locally or to an outside market.

Ideas?

Please?

[progmom]

1. is there something in your field that you could do remotely?

Working from home is becoming more commonplace.

[Coyote_Bandit]

3. I wouldn't know what that would be

I worked in reinsurance and insurance management for a period of time. The company I worked with was forced out of business (but not into receivership or liquidation) through no fault of their own. And I was involved in some extended multi million dollar reinsurance litigation (subpoenaed as a witness but not named as a party in any case). I've not been able to work in the insurance industry since and that was some 15 years ago. There are already more than enough insurance agents selling various kinds of policies in the area.

I worked in investment management. There are brokers in the area and banks that offer investment and trust services. There is very little turnover in these positions - and few positions. Most of the banks are smaller and offer these services without earning high profits (this is mostly due to the expense involved in offering the services without having a large volume of customers and is unrelated to the fees charged) and so are not expanding these services. Wealth is leaving the area as older generations pass and their inheritances go to children who usually live in metropolitan areas. There is also the problem of the large multi-national private banks who draw customers from these areas when the smaller local banks might otherwise serve them. I've not worked in banking outside of investment management. I'm forty something and not likely to find a salaried position in banking or investment management. I also view that as being a service which will have less demand as assets continue to be transferred to population centers and as the economy continues to worsen.

I have a law degree and could sit for the bar exam in that particular state. It has been 20 years since I graduated from law school. I have never worked in a law office or practiced law. I am unacquainted with any attorney licensed in that state and so lack any kind of mentor or adviser. Many rural sparsely populated counties in the mid-west have only 3 resident attorneys - usually they each maintain a private practice and one will fill the role of judge, while the other two fill the role of prosecutor and defender. Many rural counties simply cannot support more attorneys. There are few businesses that have any frequent need for legal services and poor folks don't hire attorneys unless they just absolutely have to. It is hard to break into that circle because those three attorneys are usually well established and well known in their communities. It is harder still if you are a female in the Bible Belt - or if you are an outsider and do not already have established ties in the community. Legal practice can be fairly expensive to establish and maintain. As a rural practitioner without ready access to an established law library you would have a higher than average expenditure to establish a library. Then you would have annual expenses to maintain that library, pay professional dues, earn continuing legal education, and pay malpractice insurance coverage. Add to that the expense of maintaining and furnishing an office and hiring somebody capable of simultaneously filling the role of secretary, receptionist and paralegal. Honestly, I cannot think of a better way to lose money than to move to the middle of nowhere and try to establish a legal practice.

Not trying to be a wet blanket. I just honestly do not see how anything I have done can transfer to a rural setting. I am not married to any career or job I have ever had. I am more than willing to consider alternatives, learn new skills, and take calculated risks. And I am not limiting my options to stereotypical white collar work options.

[mad-mommy]

10. Hi....

I'm sure there has to be something you can do with your law degree...work out of your home as others have posted. people in rural areas need help with estates, wills, sale and purhcase of property, a few things I can think of. Would you consider that?

[Coyote_Bandit]

13. There really isn't enough demand for that

Consider that there is a low population density, low earnings, and in most cases already at least three resident attorneys who maintain a private practice in addition to filling the roles of judge, prosecutor and defender. Most folks only get divorced once or twice in a lifetime if ever. Most only go through estate planning or draft a will once or twice during a lifetime. When family income is less than $35,000 annually most folks do not buy and sell property more than a few times during their lifetime - and many who do do not require the services of an attorney. Most folks do not require the services of personal injury attorneys - and if they do it is usually a once in a lifetime event. Most folks do not ever face serious criminal charges. A lot of folks are injured on the job but many never seek legal advice for a number of reasons - not the least of which is fear that retalitory actions will be taken and they will lose thier job.

Assume there are 4,000 families residing in the county. Assume each family will reqire some legal service every 10 years (that is a fairly generous assumption by the time you account for the young and old who often require no services at all). That means that 400 families in the county will need legal services during a given year. Assume that those clients are equallly divided among 4 attorneys. Each attorney will have 100 clients during the year. Assume that the average fee earned and **collected** from each client is $500. That results in gross earnings of $50,000. Now reduce that sum for required profewssional dues, required continuing legal education (and the required travel to participate in such programs), malpractice insurance, maintance of library and research materials required to offer services, office maintance, supplies, and any necessary secretarial or other professional services (investigators, online data access or research capabilities). Now pay your taxes. It doesn't take long to figure out that you are taking on substantial personal responsibility and risk while earning comparatively little compensation. Now adjust for the fact that you are an outsider without established ties within the community, without a reputation there as an attorney, and without a court appointment as judge, prosecutor or public defender. For reasons stated in an earlier post I really cannot think of a better way to lose money than to move to the middle of nowhere and begin a law practice.

Consider the following population statistics on Izard county in Arkansas:

"As of the census of 2000, there were 13,249 people, 5,440 households, and 3,769 families residing in the county. The population density was 9/km² (23/mi²). There were 6,591 housing units at an average density of 4/km² (11/mi²). The racial makeup of the county was 96.41% White, 1.44% Black or African American, 0.63% Native American, 0.11% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.26% from other races, and 1.13% from two or more races. 1.00% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

There were 5,440 households out of which 25.50% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 58.70% were married couples living together, 7.50% had a female householder with no husband present, and 30.70% were non-families. 27.80% of all households were made up of individuals and 15.10% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.30 and the average family size was 2.78.

In the county the population was spread out with 20.90% under the age of 18, 7.10% from 18 to 24, 25.00% from 25 to 44, 25.80% from 45 to 64, and 21.10% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 43 years. For every 100 females there were 102.90 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 100.90 males.

The median income for a household in the county was $25,670, and the median income for a family was $32,313. Males had a median income of $22,389 versus $18,450 for females. The per capita income for the county was $14,397. About 13.60% of families and 17.20% of the population were below the poverty line, including 22.40% of those under age 18 and 13.70% of those age 65 or over."

Data is from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izard_County,_Arkansas

Ths is not at all uncommon for rural counties. You will find similar data for
McDonald county Missouri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_County,_Missouri
Kingman country, Kansas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingman_County%2C_Kansas
Nowata county, Oklahoma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowata_County%2C_Oklahoma
Haskell county, Oklahoma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell_County,_Oklahoma
Lee county, Arkansas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_County%2C_Arkansas
Maries county, Missouri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maries_County%2C_Missouri
Bledsoe county, Tennessee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bledsoe_County%2C_Tennessee
DeKalb county, Tennessee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeKalb_County%2C_Tennessee
Perry county, Tennessee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_County%2C_Tennessee

[One_Life_To_Give]

2. Why would you need money?

Live up in the back woods and you won't have any use for it. Ya can live off the land, and trade for what you need on those years when you head into town for a bit.

[Coyote_Bandit]

5. Why

should anyone else generate chemical and environmental pollutants? As they say, the right to make a fist ends when that fist impacts a nose. Really, no pollution - no problem.

[graywarrior]

4. I'm probably leaving my apartment in the White Mountains

to head to southern NH for a job. $525 a month includes heat and hot water. Smack in the middle of mountains, bears, moose. One supermarket and a super wal-mart ready to open in Feb.

[Coyote_Bandit]

6. Mountains could be tempting

So could Maine. Wal-Mart? Not so much.

[graywarrior]

7. I'm in NH.

Wal-mart is the ONLY store here.

[Coyote_Bandit]

11. I am SO sorry

I grew up in Northwest Arkansas. I've observed many horror stories.

Very pretty leatherwork on your website by the way.

[LSK]

8. I thought about moving to Southern Colorado

I could sell my townhouse and buy a house there outright. My only financial needs would be food and utility bills.

Maybe in a few years....

[SteppingRazor]

9. As far as how to make money...

you could do like a huge percentage of the rural population ddoes and get government work -- go postal!

[Coyote_Bandit]

14. Not a bad idea n/t

[xchrom]

12. iowa -- it's a depopulating state.

except for desmoines and around grand rapids.

[Coyote_Bandit]

15. Most areas that are not urban centers are de-populating

The migration of folks from farms and rural areas to the cities has been one of the biggest and most significant changes ever experienced in our country.

Really, how do you live in a rual area and earn a livlihood these days? Not easily. And usually not by relying on your community to buy your goods or services.

There are some beautiful places in Iowa. I'm a bit partial to the Spirit Lake area.

[xchrom]

24. iowa really can be a great place.

it will take being inventive and searching the more creative side of yourself -- not that that means you're going to be a hippie artist.

just whatever really good idea you can come up with.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. Real Estate Appraising.

It's what I do for a living...it is good income. One only needs to be ethical. Banks have a very hard time finding appraisers (who mostly tend to live in bigger cities and towns) to go to those areas.

[Coyote_Bandit]

19. That sounds interesting

and like something I could enjoy.

How do you learn it?

[spinbaby]

17. How far in the middle of nowhere?

I'm in the middle of nowhere because my husband works in coal, but a 20-mile commute brings me to the edge of somewhere. And once you get to somewhere, you can find a job. The commute sucks.

[Coyote_Bandit]

21. I don't have a particular place in mind

I am somewhat flexible in that regard. But I am definitely looking at getting away from population centers that have lots of traffic and pollution. I have aging parents and being in close proximity to help with their care is something of a concern since I have only one sibling. With that in mind I have mostly focused on Missouri and Arkansas. Kansas and Oklahoma are also options though not preferable for a variety of reasons. Once you get away from the population centers in these states you are mostly looking at small towns and rural areas. Even Jefferson CIty, the capital of Missouri has a population of less than 40,000.

I grew up in a rural area. It was 17 miles to the nearest small town and school. So I am already familiar with the long commute. That town had a population of less than 10,000 at the time. But at that time there were lots of tradesmen and small businesses. Not so now. Everyone works for mega mart or some other big box store. Most all the agriculture is gone. Even if you opened your own little store you would be hard pressed to compete with mega mart and internet sales. Local diners are forced to compete with national chain resturants. Offering a service is probably preferable to trying to sell goods.

I lived in Dallas very briefly several years ago and had nearly constant health problems related to the pollution. I was recruited to a position in Tulsa and have had far fewer problems related to the pollution. But pollution and ozone in particular are getting worse here and my allergy problems are increasing. As I mentioned in an earlier post we have had 13 ozone exceedences here this summer and several other days that had high ozone levels. The refineries don't help.

Location of a particular area relative to other large metropolitan areas is important. Environmental and chemical pollutants that are blow in are just as bad as hose generated at home. So wind currents and upper level patterns are just as relevant as population levels. About four or five years ago I spent a week in Sedona Arizona and several days at the Grand Canyon. I had ot problems ther at all until the final day at the Canyon when the wind patterns shifted and it was covered by a visible layer of smog that had blown in from Los Angeles.

[ElboRuum]

18. I have no idea...

Tell me, do you have any skills (other than the ones you've mentioned) or hobbies that could be transformed into a business venture?

[Coyote_Bandit]

22. I'm sure I probably do

I've done some desktop publishing (mostly using PageMaker and CorelDraw software packages). It was enjoyable but it wasn't exactly lucrative and technology has changed a lot since then. It would be like starting all over again. I generally have good writing and persuasive skills. I have a high functioning math related learning disability. I lack the attention to detail required for some things like tax law and complex estate planning. I am not a computer genius - but I can use one fairly competently. I am partially sighted in one eye. A few years back I developed an inner ear problem that caused some hearing impairment and intermittent balance problems. Before that I was a reasonably competent amateur musician. I like to cook. Like a lot of Americans I could stand to lose a few pounds. Before tearing the tendons and ligaments in my ankle I was offered an athletic scholarship. That was over 25 years ago. I have some training in finance and business administration. I have had the experience of supervising offices and outside contractors in multiple states. I grew up in a rural area. I can garden (flowers and vegetables). I know how to take care of cows and chickens and how to run a dairy. I know how to put up hay. I know how to can and preserve food. I am an expert in the perverted teachings of fundie religious kooks (and they make me very angry). I have done some legal work with start up non-profits. I live in organized chaos and feel trapped by rigid schedules. I am more of an introvert than an extrovert. It is easier for me to focus on the big picture - and then the details inside it. I am more of an idea person than a people person - although I do enjoy the challenge of persuading people. I'm not very mechanical. I try to be rational and analytical and to think things through. I couldn't try to sell you something that I personally wouldn't buy. I think that people watching is entertaining. Because of that and because I like to try to understand different viewpoints I can comfortably talk to most people about a wide variety of subjects. I like animals. I like to travel. Aside from what I have already mentioned I am in good health. I like to read. I can be stubborn and persistent. I don't have good job references - or bad ones either for that matter. All but 2 of my previous employers have gone out of business. One of those is a multi-national that will only verify position and dates of employment. The other has had significant management and personnel changes. Most of my experience, education and skills are suited for stereotypical conservative business ventures. I'm not and the industries that typically might hire somebody like me are mostly located in larger metropolitan areas. Suggestions?

[ElboRuum]

23. Well...

I guess if you're looking to get hired by someone else, my question to you would be does it have to be the middle of "nowhere" or can it be a suburban or subrural town? Say something with a slightly larger population, say 50,000-100,000? I don't know if you'll have a great deal of any luck finding work commensurate with your skills in an out of the way place. In a large town or small city you might be able to find a happy medium of work opportunities and better environmental conditions.

Fortunately, if you are looking into the small product or service business, the ubiquity of the internet and door-to-door shipping makes it unnecessary to actually be where your customers or clients are to do business.

Then again, if you have any land, maybe a farm is for you, even if subsistence is really all you're looking, where you essentially provide for yourself: gardening, canning, the aforementioned cows, chickens, dairy. Maybe you produce a little more for sale to others to get cash. Granted I don't know how feasible any of this is. I'm no farmer.

Better question: what would you LIKE to do?

[Coyote_Bandit]

26. Hmmmmm

I would LIKE to write persuasive social and political commentary. Not novels or poetry or how to succeed in business books or children's books or whatever else. I realize that the odds are against me doing so and consistently earning enough money to be self-sustaining from my efforts. I do have several ideas and am actively shopping them to reputable literary agents. No takers thus far.

Most farmers take on several hundred thousand of dollars in debt just to begin their operations. Before they even start they need a sizable chunk of land that has water and offers some shelter and the ability to graze, a bunch of livestock, fences, barns with some feed and hay stocked, fuel, tools, tractors, mowers, rakes, balers, trailers, trucks, etc. Given the corporate nature of competition within the agriculture industry, the situation with global warming and climate change and developing diseases such as mad cow that is not a risk I wish to take. There are farmers on both sides of my family for several generations back. At the age of 35 my brother who had farmed all his life decided to sell the farm which had been in the family for three generations. He liked the work and was experienced and good at it. I wouldn't mind some free range chickens, a pond stocked with fish and a large garden. It is the difference between being a "gentleman farmer" and having a business.

I would consider a metropolitan area of 50,000 to 100,000 provided it was not in a location where it frequently had pollution from other larger metropolitan areas blow through. Depending on wind currents even the Grand Canyon can sometimes be blanketed by smog from Los Angeles. I have been actively seeking work in several areas about this size for quite some time. Positions that utilize my skills and background do not open up frequently. Most employers do not want to hire someone who is overqualified. And overqualified candidates are often thought to be easily employable - elsewhere.

[huskerlaw]

20. Look into small law firms

in out of the way places. I'm thinking rural "cities" like Kearney or Scottsbluff Nebraska. Many of these little firms, which are already established, have difficulty convincing new attorneys to move out into the boonies...and thereby could really use someone like you.

Meanwhile, you could live 10-15 minutes outside of the town and be in the middle of nowhere, yet be close enough to buy groceries, etc.

Plus, Nebraska's bar exam is WAY easy. ;)

[Coyote_Bandit]

25. Does the Nebraska Bar reciprocate?

I have maintained my Oklahoma license and met all my continuing education requirements - even though I have never practiced.

An easy bar exam? I expected more of Nebraska. I basically walked in and took the Oklahoma bar exam without any preparation at all. But I studied all the multi-state subjects thoroughly. Did well enough that I was able to transfer that portion of the test to another state.

I'll check into this. Thanks!

[Nikia]

27. You seem to assume a lot about rural areas

I have lived mostly in Ohio and Wisconsin. In these areas, there are many micropolitain areas and densely populated rual areas. In many of these areas, not everyone is poor. Although there may not be a lot of rich or upper middle class people, there are many median income people and lower housing costs. I assure you that the rural counties that I have lived in have dozens of lawyers and insurance agencies and banks. There may also be oppurtunities to buy small businesses in these areas. I don't know what sort of pollutants you are senitive too. Many of these towns do have some manufacturing facilities and all have some pollution from farm chemicals.

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. I am speaking of the rural areas I know

in Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma primarily. Although the same could certainly be said for rural areas I am familiar with in Louisiana (even before Katrina) and Tennessee. I've known a lot of people who lived in these areas during my lifetime. Most all of them left in order to be able to earn a livelihood.

In an earlier post I linked to the demographics on Izard county Arkansas. 13,249 people. 3,769 families. Household median income of $25,670. Per capita income of $14,397. 17.20% of the population is below the poverty line. HHS Poverty Guidelines for the year 2000 (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/00poverty.htm) show that a single individual was living in poverty if they had income of less than $8,350. 17.2% of the population or 2,279 people out of the total population of 13,249 were poor. When you account for that the median per capita income of the remaining population of 10,970 people becomes $15,653. The national poverty rate in 2000 was 11.3% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States) while in Izard county it was 17.2% - some 52% higher than the national rate. Now consider that the average poverty rate in Appalachia in 2000 was 13.6% (http://www.arc.gov/index.do?nodeId=2855).


If I look at towns in Izard county I find the following (all data is from Wikipedia):

Calico Rock (anyone familiar with the writings of John Grisham should recognize this town)
991 people, 428 households, and 264 families
median income for a household was $23,200
per capita income of $14,305.
26.2% of the population were below the poverty line

Franklin
184 people, 80 households, and 52 families
median income for a household was $19,750
per capita income was $13,434
19.6% of the population were below the poverty line

Guion
90 people, 37 households, and 26 families
median income for a household was $16,875
per capita income was $11,264
14.6% of the population living below the poverty line

Melbourne
1,673 people, 736 households, and 448 families
median income for a household was $22,757
per capita income was $13,110
18.4% of the population were below the poverty line

Oxford
642 people, 263 households, and 184 families
median income for a household was $22,313
per capita income was $10,778
22.9% of the population were below the poverty line

Pineville
246 people, 100 households, and 72 families
median income for a household was $25,000
per capita income was $10,339
22.7% of the population were below the poverty line

Mount Pleasant
401 people, 166 households, and 113 families
median income for a household was $21,875
per capita income was $11,014
21.5% of the population were below the poverty line

Horseshoe Bend (this is a retirement area)
2,278 people, 1,142 households, and 725 families
24.3% of the households had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older
median age was 63 years (compared to 43 for the county as a whole)
median income for a household was $26,714
per capita income was $18,987
10.8% of the population were below the poverty line
total monthly government expenditures including salaries for 20 full time employees is $32,951 which includes ***NO*** regular judicial or legal expenditures (http://www.city-data.com/city/Horseshoe-Bend-Arkansas.html)
The nearest city with a population of 50,000 or more is 77 miles away something which suggests these characteristics are not unique to this small county
The nearest city with a population of 200,000 or more is about 150 miles away
Little Rock is about 100 miles away - the Little Rock metropolitan area consists of 4 counties and has a population of about 600,000
This graph shows the distribution of household income in Horseshoe Bend



Sorry, but the area I am describing is a whole lot more like the poverty stricken area of Appalachia than the rural areas you describe in Ohio and Wisconsin. It is not unique. This is what you find more often than not when you leave the metropolitan areas in Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma.

[Richard Steele]

28. Well, if you have a law degree...

Then that's experience to build on.

Might you be able to move within commuting distance
of a decent Law Library? That plus an internet connection
could turn you a Freelance Legal Research Firm, inc.™
And you could sell your self as being much more qualified
than an average research assistant- that would be a plus.

I don't know what laws/licenses would cover that
sort of thing; is it a viable idea?

[Coyote_Bandit]

31. Licensed attorneys are liable

for the legal research they provide. They cannot offer legal advice in jurisdictions where they are not licensed. Malpractice insurance would still be required/advised. In most cases access to a decent law library means proximity to a university law library. Sometimes the district court in the county seat will maintain a small library that usually is limited to statutes, case reporters for that particular district. They typically do not maintain case reporters for other districts or form books. They are not always updated. If you are going to offer reliable research services then you really need to build your own library and maintain it, or have access to a university law library, or pay a small fortune to access electronic law libraries. Most attorneys either do their own research or have a low wage clerk do it for them. Some of the larger law firms have begun offshoring legal research.

[mad-mommy]

30. hey there...

i know I wasn't helpful, but did you come up with any ideas?