Vegetarians - If you "don't eat anything with a face"

[KFC]

Are oysters, clams, even worms fair game?

Just asking. I have full respect for vegetarians and vegans.

[billyskank]

1. What does having a face have to do with it?

Who said that? :shrug:

[bertha katzenengel]

7. "No food with a face." I've heard that forever. If it has a face, it's

a sentient being. Veg*s won't eat sentient beings.

[BarenakedLady]

9. Exactly.

:shrug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. No. They're animals and thus not vegetarian.

"Don't eat anything with a face" is just a figure of speech, not an actual definition of what a vegetarian can and can't eat.

[johnnie]

3. Ummm

[yewberry]

4. Nah.

I'm not really a fan of the cutesy definitions. They just lead to misunderstandings.

Recently, someone tried to use the "veg*ns don't eat anything with a mother" characterization as a way to claim that we're hypocrites for eating mushrooms or yeast or some darned thing.

I think it's better to just stick with real definitions. Less confusing.

[YankeyMCC]

5. Face? I don't anything with a foot

j/k

I'm a nasty omnivore. :)

[VeggieTart]

6. I like to be even clearer:

I don't eat any members of the animal kingdom. Yeast is a member of the fungi kingdom, so don't get on my ass about eating bread.

[ashling]

12. Milk, eggs?

then those items don't bother you? just asking

[VeggieTart]

71. Yes, they bother me very much

Both milk and eggs are products of reproductive slavery. Cows are kept pregnant almost constantly. A cow must be pregnant to start producing milk. The calves are taken away from their mothers within hours of birth, sometimes a day or two. The females eventually join mom on the dairy line; the males usually end up as veal calves, and that's a whole other issue I do NOT want to get into now. Let's just say that when I found out about the dairy-veal connection, I stopped eating dairy. When production declines, typically around four years of age (the typical lifespan, I have heard, is 20), the cows are turned into hamburger.

Cows are given hormones to increase milk production and constant milking causes udder infections. There is, to quote Woody Harrelson, blood and pus in your milk. Besides, we don't need milk after infancy.

Now, eggs. Once upon a time, chickens were bred for both eggs and flesh until some evil genius found a way to create two strains, one for "broilers" and one for "eggs." So when eggs from layer hens hatch, the first thing done is determine the sex of the chick. Since male chicks don't lay eggs, they are killed at birth, usually by being tossed in the garbage where they suffocate. Female chicks have their beaks seared, and are crammed six, seven, and eight, to a tiny cage where they live their entire lives unable to even spread a wing.

I recommend you go to www.cok.net to find out more about eggs.

[AwakeAtLast]

78. That's how factory farms do it

My family's farm and the surrounding community do not do these things. Which is why I have a hard time buying eggs and milk out of that community. Fresh eggs from chickens allowed to run are very good, and so is the actual meat. Free range cattle are much better, too.

I sincerely think there would be less infighting about the meat issue if farms produced the healthy way. :( Unfortunately I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

My sister is vegetarian, too, but when she travels home she will eat a little of the local meat because it is so good and fresh. Just my .$02!

:hi:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. I'm not against meat produced that way but...your sister is NOT a

vegetarian. Vegetarians do not consume animal flesh, regardless of how it is raised.

She should stop claiming herself to be a vegetarian, if she's consuming animal flesh. It does a serious disservice to REAL vegetarians.

[Rhiannon12866]

85. Welcome to DU, VeggieTart!

It's great to have you with us! We can always use informed vegetarians here...:toast:

Rhiannon:hi:

[flvegan]

8. Fair game?

Uh, no. It's an expression.

"Game" is a funny choice of words.

[Robeson]

19. Hey flvegan...like the new avatar!...

...I think it suits you...;-)

[flvegan]

37. Thanks!

I'm liking it more and more each time I see it.

[Ellen Forradalom]

10. How can anyone who professes this

have oral sex in good conscience?

[driver8]

24. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a face staring back at me

during oral sex...

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. !

:spray:

[asthmaticeog]

81. I think in this case

the only real prohibition would be against swallowing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Quoting Deadeye Dick, "She don't eat meat but she sure like the bone."

[LeftyMom]

11. Are they capable of feeling pain? Probably. Are they animals? For sure.

Not food.

Being vegan is easy, really. Did the thing or something in it come from an animal? Yes? It's not for me. Tested on animals? Not for me. Sometimes I think it's harder for vegetarians, the lines are a bit more fuzzy.

edited for typo

[pokerfan]

13. Can vegetarians drink beer?

cause if not, I don't want to be one.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

14. Yes, they can.

Some brands are produced with an ingredient derived from fish, so those aren't vegetarian, but the vast majority of beers are vegetarian, along with liquor & wine.

[pokerfan]

15. Because yeast doesn't have a face?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

16. Not only doesn't it have a face, but it's not an animal.

It's related to fungus.

[pokerfan]

17. It's not a vegetable either

i.e. belonging to the plant kingdom. It's something in between.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. Plants, yeast, fungus are all fair game for vegetarians.

They're not animals, or an animal-derived food product. In fact, yeast and fungus are even further down on the evolutionary scale.

[pokerfan]

20. OK, I think I understand

It's not so much about restricting ones self to a single kingdom, Plantae.

It's about abstaining from the Animalia kingdom.

If the other two (Fungi and Protista) are fair game, why is it called vegetarianism? It's just so confusing. :)

I'm mostly just having fun with these questions. I think that too much meat is obviously bad. I know vegetarians who are vegetarian for health reasons and others who do it for moral/ethical reasons.

But this is the first time I've ever wondered about those little yeasty beasties who must die so that I can have my beer. I wonder if any vegetarians or vegans abstain from the yeast cycle.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. The only reason a vegetarian/vegan would abstain from yeast would

be due to an allergy or a medical condition. Some people actually can't eat products containing yeast.

According to Online Etymology Dictionary:

vegetarian
1839, irregular formation from vegetable (n.) + -arian, as in agrarian, etc. "The general use of the word appears to have been largely due to the formation of the Vegetarian Society in Ramsgate in 1847."

I didn't look it up just because of you. After you said that, I actually wondered myself why it's called vegetarianism.

[pokerfan]

22. And in 1839, fungi were no doubt considered plants

[billyskank]

25. Actually you have to be careful

I heard that, in Britain at least, many beers have something in them that comes from a cow, and I don't mean milk.

[seemunkee]

26. clarification agents

Usually in beer they don't use gelatin but isinglass which comes from fish. Polyclar is a synthetic that is being used more often and home brewers use Irish moss a lot which is an algae

[LeftyMom]

27. That's right

Isinglass is fish bladders and pretty commonly used to filter beer, especially cask conditioned beer. Other animal products such as dairy and honey sometimes make it into beer, but that's the big one.

[seemunkee]

30. What dairy is used in beer?

In a milk stout or a cream ale there will be lactose sugar. Lactose is a non-fermentable sugar so it adds sweetness to the beer without increasing the alcohol
Is that what you are referring to? or is there something else I'm not familiar with.

[LeftyMom]

31. Lactose=dairy

Being both dairy allergic and vegan, I definitely wouldn't want anything that has any dairy derivatives in it. I don't know if there are other dairy products used in beer, it would not surprise me, but I'm not a big beer drinker so I'm no expert on the subject. There was a thread a few months ago about the vegness of beer, but I'm having a hard time finding it.

[tigereye]

32. what is the view about eating honey?

it's a natural product that the insects create, albeit for their own uses.

[LeftyMom]

34. For vegans it's not acceptable, because it's an animal product

Inherent in veganism is the idea that we should not exploit animals for any purpose.

The more practical argument against honey is that it exists because bees need it, and when replaced with inferior nourishment (which, unlike honey, does spoil) fewer bees in the hive will survive the winter. Additionally, the harvesting of honey from bee boxes will almost always result in some bees being crushed, as they are packed so tightly into the boxes. Those bee bodies can wind up in the harvested honey, and while the bigger bits are undoubtedly filtered out some bee guts probably remain, so there's a good argument that honey isn't properly vegetarian, though generally if one looks that deeply into things they're vegan anyhow.

[tigereye]

44. but what if it were done in a mindful way?

I suspect that there are people who do it in a way that is the least harmful and perhaps respectful of the bees life cycle.


Hmmm, where do your beliefs coincide with those of Jains?

[LeftyMom]

51. Nah, I'm vegan. I don't believe in gentler exploitation.

Even if it was done in such a way as to minimize harm to the bees, it's still promoting the idea that humans need animal products, an idea that causes a great deal of harm to the earth, our animal brethren and human health.

I'm cool using agave nectar instead, it's rather honey-like and comes from a plant instead. Brown rice sryup and maple syrup can work as substitues for honey in some applications as well.

[tigereye]

72. I suspect that in the past, early humans made different choices

about their diets and certainly made use of what was avialable to them. Certainly some of them may have felt that they were in partnership with the animals to some extent, and that there was a mutual benefit that led to domestication, in some sense. Also, American Indians and many other cultures felt that their killing and use of animals for food was ameliorated by their spiritual practices of showing respect (in their view) to the creatures that they had used. I'm not an anthropologist, but I suspect there has been a lot written about this relationship.

I guess I don't really see why the use of some animal products is exploitation ( I tend to think of prostitution and lack of labor unions as exploitation), particularly in the sense of some animals having been domesticated or bred for this very purpose. ( you could say that chickens, for example, might be used for eggs in exchange for care and housing) I have friends who keep chickens (which they use for eggs, but not for meat) There are various breeds who roam around the property and are well cared for. Obviously it isn't a balanced relationship, but....


Hmmm, maybe the question I am asking here is what function should animals have in our society and what should our relationship with them be? Should they never have any human use, other than that of companionship, or living in the wild? Granted that the social construct of animals existing primarily for our use is one of very long standing.
However, I always think of Doris Lessing's Canopus in Argos series when I have these types of conversations, since she was looking at the complexity of how we decide which creature in a heirarchy has merit ( i.e., humans enslaved by creatures from elsewhere and seen as "animals.")

just thinking aloud....:)

[LeftyMom]

74. My feeling is that using animals for thier flesh and tissues is inherently

exploitative. After all, we'd never keep human women continually pregnant and lactating to harvest thier milk or breed them to have menses (the closest human analog to the expulsion of an unfertilized egg, in terms of discomfort and mineral loss) at many times thier natural rate if doing so served some purpose. The idea that these animals are bred for these purposes is really no excuse, because what it really means is that they're deformed and diseased for human convenience. The modern dairy cow can't suckle her calf without damage to her udder (he'll be taken away for beef or veal production before he gets the chance anyhow) and is constantly plauged by mastitis (an extrordinarily painful infection of the breast,) the modern laying hen has bone loss and deformity from her frequency of egg laying, the modern chicken raised for meat grows flesh faster than his heart and skeleton can keep up. The humane response is not to keep these animals in better conditions, it's not to breed them into bodies as cruel as any cage.

Did my ancestors feel differently or have little choice in the matter? Undoubtedly. However in modern society, few people face that situation. I have the opportunity to make choices driven by ethics, rather than mere survival. I take that opportunity seriously.

[flvegan]

35. Many beekeepers also kill off their hives each year

which, in addition to what LeftyMom said, is another reason why it's vegetarian, but not vegan.

[LeftyMom]

38. I was hoping you'd chime in

:*

[tigereye]

40. but if they didn't, would it still be acceptable to you folks?

just curious. Or would "found" honey be okay to eat?


I suspect that not all beekeepers do this.

[flvegan]

46. Not all do, no

and there are some very responsible beekeepers/honeyfarmers that do quite well by their insects. As for "you folks" meaning vegan (me) and not vegetarian (as the OP depicts), no, it's not okay to eat. It's an animal product, it's not needed by the human body, and is largely detrimental to the animals that produce it.

As for "found honey" I think that sticking my hand into a beehive would not only hurt/kill some insects (not my style) but would also prove quite stupid and quite painful, which also isn't my style...usually.

Vegetarians are mostly non-eaters of animal flesh, specifically. "By-products" or products produced by animals (such as honey) are usually okay, by definition.

[tigereye]

60. do you see an insect as an animal

even though it is not, technically, or is it the sense of respect for all life-forms?

Hence my question about Jains, below.

I was being somewhat facetious about the "found" aspect, but there are some groups who make this distinction when it comes to wood products, jade, ivory, etc.

[flvegan]

63. No

I see an insect as an insect, but an insect has no less importance than any other "creature" (outside of parasitic or other potential harming critters).

There's a big difference between "found" honey and raised/harvested. I can see the distinction. My brother jokes with me about the leather seats in his Lexus. He says that they're made from "naturally felled cows" which makes me laugh (he teases me about my vegan-ity).

As for the Jains, I think that those beliefs are a few steps even ahead of veganism in many cases. Some won't eat root vegetables. However, the overall belief of nonviolence is pretty much dead (pun intended) on. Additionaly, the Jains, as I understand it, don't believe in any form of harm for any reason. Personally, if you perform some home invasion at my house and start shotgunning my animals, you're getting harmonized to the tune of .45 Black Talons.

[tigereye]

73. ah, well the spiritual aspect of it makes sense

when we talk about the Jains. They actually wear masks so that no insects will be harmed and will not step on bugs, etc. (can't remember if I already said that, it's been a long day.)


As the Catholic Church sometimes says (when it makes sense), one needs to have a "seamless" garment when one looks at what violence actually is....

[flvegan]

76. Again, that's just my take on it.

It's in no way universal. Many veg folk wouldn't consider owning a gun. Some believe in the death penalty. Some abhor violence, yet will burn a building down. Personally, I own 3 guns, don't believe in the death penalty and think fire is best used for warmth and cooking, not destroying.

[pokerfan]

82. An insect isn't an animal? WTF?

"do you see an insect as an animal even though it is not, technically..."

[Deja Q]

23. Uh-oh.

[BrotherBuzz]

80. Animal or vegetable?

LOL- Hypnotoad, I was about to post these, when I saw your funny veggie "anthropomorphisms".

[mark414]

28. i'm a level 5 vegan

i don't eat anything with a shadow

[datasuspect]

29. i don't eat at all

i exchange long synthetic protein strands with a bioreplicator.

i am the most virtuous of all.

[Deja Q]

33. You synthetic protein killer you!

:P

[Taverner]

39. What about protozoa?

Weren't they, at least at some time, considered animals?

[flvegan]

41. They're single-cell critters

and therefore appropriate for all but the Level 17 Vegannites.

[Taverner]

55. Oooh...Level 17..is that kind of like OT III???

:P

[LeftyMom]

57. It's got to be cheaper.

Rumor has it that's when you find out that Ingrid Newkirk sculpted the world out of tofu. :D I don't know yet, but I think I could tickle it out of flvegan if I got my hands on him.

[matcom]

42. so I guess Peeps are out then?

[yewberry]

43. Peeps are out.

They're made with gelatin, sir.

(But I do make smiley faces on my pancakes and devour them without guilt!)

[LeftyMom]

45. Murderer!

:rofl:

[yewberry]

48. Caught!!

Oh, hiding my head in shame...my horrible secret has been discovered!

[matcom]

47. Gelatin has a FACE??

[flvegan]

50. It used to.

Like hot dogs, it's made from the otherwise, uh, "unusable" parts of critters (cows in this case).

[yewberry]

52. If you use a special mold, sure.

Also in Peep form.

You can have mine, if you want.

[flvegan]

49. What about a Jack-O-Lantern? HUH?! HUUUUHHH!!1???/

It's a pumpkin...quite vegan/vegetarian, yet...it has a face.

[matcom]

53. WAIT A DAMNED MINUTE HERE!

i see NO FACE!! not Jesus, not the Virgin Mary, not a face to be seen!

so this is ok right?



:hide:

[flvegan]

54. Very true

Enjoy eating that picture of a steak.

You have to turn it 30 degrees to the left to see Jesus (in the marbling).

[yewberry]

56. You have to squint

and turn it sideways, but I definitely see Jimmy Durante there, clear as day.

However, that does bear a much stronger resemblance to boys' underpants.

[LeftyMom]

59. "However, that does bear a much stronger resemblance to boys' underpants."

Mark Foley, is that you? :wow:

[martymar64]

77. I spy a Rib Eye!!!!

The king of steaks, in my carnivorous opinion!

[qnr]

58. OK, now that the serious answers are out of the way, may I ask, as a

"depraved DUmmie Democrap", how this impacts oral sex?

[LeftyMom]

61. Oral sex= very, very, very vegan. If it wasn't, I think most of us would

defect and start our own thing. We'd be vegerific or something. Like vegans, but with more B12. :D

[qnr]

62. ah.. that's good to hear :) n/t

[flvegan]

64. Vegans taste better too.

Seriously...there was a study done. Science and shit.

[LeftyMom]

69. it's in my sexuality book.

Okay, it just says "vegetarians" but we're cooler than them, damn it. :D

[KFC]

65. So you are saying that puds don't have a face?

I'll have to check.

[LeftyMom]

70. None I've ever seen

::checks human sexuality text::

A few wearing turtlenecks (can't blame 'em, it's windy and cold today) but no faces.

[matcom]

66. so then you DO eat Tacos?

oh hell. now i'm all confused and shit

[qnr]

68. well sure -- anyway, confusion is my friend n/t

[qnr]

67. self-delete (ah, the hazards of using My Posts to quickly jump to a reply)

:)

[calico1]

75. Anything that is considered a

"creature" is off limits, whether it's a pig or a clam. Doesn't matter. Not to true vegetarians or vegans.

[Rhiannon12866]

84. Vegetarians don't eat seafood.

Some eat dairy or eggs, but not seafood. They consider it to be meat, since fish and shellfish are living creatures. Vegans don't eat dairy or eggs. I rarely eat meat, but never completely gave up seafood, so I'm not a real vegetarian.