My thoughts on random homophobic jokes etc

[La Lioness Priyanka]

so my gf works in a heterosexual male dominated field...they build musical instruments and her coworkers often tease her about her gender non-conformity or about being gay.

now i don't think these people are truly homophobic. they support gay rights...when she was attacked by a crazy driver for being gay, they were very supportive of her...they probably are fine with gay marriage too..


however this sort of constant joke making and teasing gets to her (and if it happened to me it would get to me too)..we live in a world where gay people are often taking flak for one thing or the other...when liberals pile on with the teasing and the mocking it just adds another "hostile" environment to an already hostile world.


ps: in addition if anyone has been keeping up with my DUnkin donut lady stories...she said i appeared in a Bengali newspaper a week ago with lisa in an article about how Bengali's are losing their culture/morality.

[idgiehkt]

1. I just don't like being pushed into anyone's shadow side

I think that is what they are doing with your S.O., I think that is what people do with my sexuality, I think it's what giggly, immature straight men do when they address topics (badly) that reference male homosexuality/transvestitism, whatever.

So, to those so afflicted:
I am not part of your psyche that you have to constantly make cracks about and remind me of what I am every second of the day because you can't reconcile your repulsion from/attraction to it. Whether you find it titillating or disgusting, it's a part of YOU that you have to address. Leave me the fuck alone and let me live. I am not one of your issues, or one of your secret forbidden fantasies. I am a person. I have the same needs and want the same things as anyone else. If you have to keep referencing my sexuality over and over as a symptom of some kind of masturbatory tourettes syndrome, they YOU have a problem you need to deal with and reconcile within yourself. If you do it in my direction, and I tell you it is offensive, wake the fuck up and listen. Don't tell me I'm crazy, or hyper-sensitive, or on a crusade. You're a liberal, remember? This shouldn't be such a hard concept to grasp.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. i doubt all of a sudden we are hypersensitive..i think some issues are sensitive

and should be dealt with sensitivity

[idgiehkt]

4. amazing, isn't it.

I don't know if I've ever seen so many gay people in agreement on something here, lol. Yet, still, not making a dent.

[some guy]

3. nice post. n/t

[Sapphocrat]

8. I like this part, a LOT:

"...you have to constantly make cracks about and remind me of what I am every second of the day because you can't reconcile your repulsion from/attraction to it."

Well said. :thumbsup:

[WhollyHeretic]

10. I think you nailed it

:thumbsup:

[jmm]

5. I’ve noticed that often

people who support progressive causes mistakenly think that their liberal politics make them more worldly than they really are so they’ll crack jokes and make comments not even thinking that they of all people could be offensive. Then of course when you call them on it they’ll frequently become defensive instead of examining themselves.

This summer I went with some friends from work to get pierced. A rumor had been circulating about one of them that she is lesbian. Our next day back to work somebody pointed to my piercings and asked if this meant I switched teams. I told him not to worry about my team because he wasn’t in my league. A long argument ensued but the gist of it is that apparently he doesn’t have a problem with “those people” so it’s alright for him to tell jokes at the expense of others but I apparently can’t respond in a manner which might offend him.

[idgiehkt]

7. right. I believe I am not racist/sexist/homophobic, therefore it must be true

If you confront me with evidence this might not be the case, well that just means something is wrong with you, like, you are one of those militants or something.

:rofl:

[ThomCat]

30. It seems that you've got it.

:)

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. Or maybe it means

we've still got a few things to learn — about others and about ourselves.

[idgiehkt]

46. learning is

well, learning...not turning around and tellling the other guy he's nuts.

[petronius]

17. Right - it seems sometimes that some people think that if they say the right things

then they don't actually have to do the right things. It's the same principle as all those young republicans who think that if they mouth the slogans about national service it's the same thing as actually serving...

(However, I agree with you that a lot of it is probably unconscious - people just naturally assume that the bigot/idiot is that other guy.)

[Sapphocrat]

41. Another bingo.

"Then of course when you call them on it they’ll frequently become defensive instead of examining themselves."

Yep. Yep, yep, yep!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. absolutely...her conservative coworker would NEVER say these things

mostly because he knows there is a line. and he knows he is not allowed to cross it..

[Redstone]

6. Those guys are only jealous because they can't get a girlfriend as pretty as you are

for themselves. So they resent her.

Truth.

Redstone

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. actually they have said that to her too...

she has pics of me at her desk...and they say its too distracting...

[rustydog]

9. I'm having a bit of a quandry where I work because we've

hired an "outed lesbian" (shit, I'm probably blowing this all to hell) and, at first, the guys did not know how to act. Now, I believe they have proven thay do not know how to act because of refrences to oral sex, how great they are with women and gay barbs. I'm to the point of pulling each one aside and telling them to knock it off because they are dangerously close to violating state laws. The new employee is great, a hard worker, she just laughs off the statements, but the laughter does not reach her eyes. I think she has the stuff to out-shine these predjudiced a-holes and I won't want to lose her.

I am not sure if I should ask her how the conversational tone affects her or just going right at the offenders and telling them to shut up or face human respources.

[ThomCat]

19. It's good that you're thinking about it seriously.

It might be good to do both. Talk to her about it so that she known that you know it's an issue. And at the same time, warn them that they're walking on thin ice.

[idgiehkt]

23. references to oral sex?

That falls under sexual harrassment...forget GLBT, forget gay issues. I wonder if she's documenting this stuff as it happens. The term is lesbian, you might be meaning 'out lesbian' but you better shut your guys up and get your papers in order to make sure you can show that they've been disciplined for each infraction according to company policy. They are not okay with her sexuality and they have to keep referencing it...autistics have things they do that are referred to as "stims" which are repetitive behaviors that calm their over-stimulated nervous system, I think this is kind of the same behavior that a certain kind of man displays around gays. They are either turned on by it in the case of women or repulsed by it in the case of men, but in either case it comes out of their mouth over and over when they need to shut up about it. I really hope you don't get sued, I guess. I sure wouldn't approach her about it, you might give her more ammo if you are referring to her as an 'outed lesbian', all people involved with the exception of her need sensitivity training.

Here you go:
Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.
http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sexual_harassment.html

This is federal law, title 7 of the 1964 civil rights act.

[jonnyblitz]

11. the ASSHOLES this is geared towards won't be receptive

to this sort of thing unfortunately. apparently they donated to the cause once or have a relative who is gay and think they are entitled to mock without being called on it. they aren't worth the effort. their IGNORANCE is there for everybody to see and read. they can go get fucked.

[bridgit]

12. i don't find that's entirely true, but an indicator perhaps; of a caccoon...

-like, insulated thought systemic

dear friends of ours are gay, super-gay; hubby worked in the same environ with one friend along with a room filled with some gay though in keeping with the demographic nationwide, mostly hetero folk of what seemed like every nationality (an Indian woman ran the liaison between clients & sample designers & programmers on a major HIV/AIDS study who was herself L, dealing with hubby a 'hetero', though neither of them less than professional, or at a loss for proper things to discuss) though of them some were rather strictly so regarding their sexual orientation point being everyone is not universally accepted further point being,

our friend made quite a sport of placing his gay-ness into the faces of anyone & everyone without discrimination it would seem (still does, some things never change) in that his lifestyle has been enabled by his family his entire life; in that process he would intone & opine with a great specificity as to his fantasies regarding gay sex with his partner & other men, sometimes up & into the air of the room as i say, filled with other people trying to make a living,

hubby was keyed by someone internally, that his seminars on the subject were not being digested properly by certain segments of the work environs demographic, so he called him off duty at home & tried to explain the matter to him as he, our friend, was a supervisor and we didn't much care to see him fall into some disciplinary mode...

...our friend became externally livid! and was mightily, righteously incensed he could not speak his mind as he so desires and wanted to know the names of whomever it was said these things

:wow:

hubby explained he was not about to drag others in just that he wanted him to be aware..."the rabbit has bunny ears", he was later our friend, in time, released without 'prejudice' but it is folly...

for heteros to presume that g&l's have no feelings & only frolic through leafy dells filled with lavender flowers; it is folly for g&l's to presume that everything is easy for heteros & only they can 'do each other' over the checkout @ Safeway without being arrested...that dog won't hunt either

i refuse to believe; that it is folly to believe; that we are all human beings, i had done AIDS counseling in LA for years, made many friends i cried deeply over when they passed as well, it's all too sad this human coil,

but there are still places 'the boys' cannot take me to i.e. certain leather bars, because they have signs on the door that read quite clearly: No Fish Allowed!!!

go figure :shrug:

[Gormy Cuss]

13. On the Dunkin Donuts lady, I'm sorry. That is just so sad.

How can one live in NYC and not understand that America has a different culture, one where a lesbian Bengali can feel free to live as she is?

On homophobic jokes, anyone can make a mistake and step over the line without mean-spiritedness. Once your friends make it clear that the "joke" is not funny, it's time to shut up and think about it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. I have some extremely poignant comments on this subject

and will make them as soon as I'm no longer scared shitless to do so.

:scared:

[bicentennial_baby]

15. Don't be scared....

I'm sure you can't be as bad as some of the shit i've seen here tonight....

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Seriously — I am

I have been for quite some time.

There's just way too much room for misinterpretation, or for me to put something in not quite the right way, and I'm just not willing to risk that — especially to risk friendships.

[bicentennial_baby]

18. If you're really that worried...

PM it to me....I'm a pretty good judge of what will offend and alienate, hehe...Seriously...And I won't hold it against you, promise. Dialogue is good. :)

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. Well...

I don't have it all organized in my head yet, but I'll give it a shot.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

47. Hey...

you can always feel free to PM me with questions, too. I know that you genuinely want to "get it" and I'll discuss stuff with you without attacking you.

[ThomCat]

21. You nailed this so well! Even our friends stab us in the back

and use us as comedy material, and then refuse to accept that it's insensitive at best and offensive at worst.
x(

[LeftyMom]

22. Those aren't friends dear. They may not be enemies, but behavior like that certainly isn't friendly.

A real friend would value your input enough to listen to concerns and really put some thought into a disagreement even if in the end they still didn't agree. :hug:

[ThomCat]

24. Personal friends? No, you're right.

But politically, we need them as friends. We can't stand alone.

The abolitionist movement had a lot of racists in it but they were just a bit less racist than the people they were fighting. There are plenty of sexist men who support women's rights but they (we?) are generally a bit less sexist than the men who don't support women's rights.

Less of a bigot doesn't mean not a bigot. :(

:hug:

[LeftyMom]

25. I'm not saying to tell them to fuck off and get their own cause. I'm just saying to watch your back

around such people, figuratively, and to remember that their loyalty is a mile wide and an inch deep.

[ThomCat]

26. "a mile wide and an inch deep."

I'm stealing that. :)

[LeftyMom]

27. It's hardly mine, so go for it.

How did the lentil loaf go?

[ThomCat]

29. I didn't get to make it.on Thanksgiving

because I got basically kicked out of the kitchen. x(

I was able to make the gravy though, which was awesome. And I just poured that over some canned mock duck. It came out amazingly well.

I made the lentil loaf on Saturday though, it got raves. Though I don't think I did such a good job of it the first time.

[LeftyMom]

31. It's finicky.

It tastes great no matter what, but getting it to loaf up and be cohesive is a bit of a bitch.

That gravy is something else, isn't it?

[ThomCat]

34. Oh hell yes. And I tend to be good with sauces.

So I was confident with that.

[Sapphocrat]

42. "Comedy material."

I used to think we were stuck about where "Amos 'n' Andy" were in the early 1950s. Then I thought, no, we're breaking through, even if we're just Dihann Carroll as "Julia," around 1968. But now I realize we're just Stepin Fetchit, circa 1935.

And taken about as seriously.

[Schema Thing]

28. Joking about any minority issue is always a fine line, isn't it.

A person who has a wicked sense of humor, who truly "gets over", say, racism, will find racial humor, if it has any true wit, quite funny.

Sometimes I find myself laughing at something, and within seconds wanting to kick the ass of the guy standing next to me, because I realize that we are laughing at the same thing for completely polarized reasons.

[bridgit]

35. Paula Poundstone had a cool little riff in her stand-up, her brother...

Bosco, had burned the family house down, so she asked him after the fire dept left & what was left of the house was still smoking,

"Bosco, why'd you do it? Why'd you torch the house?"

"Because it was laughing at me." Bosco replied.

"But Bosco, the house wasn't laughing at you; it was laughing with you."

[ruiner4u]

38. Oh thats Judy Tenuta

the fashion plate saint...

[bridgit]

39. oh i like Judy just fine, but i heard that come out of Paula's mouth...

either way http://www.judytenuta.com/index2.html :rofl:

[ruiner4u]

45. please dont make me google...

long story short.. years ago I dated a guy and lifted his judy tenuta tape... Its her, not paula...

[bridgit]

48. then we heard what we heard...

i dated a guy that WAS a stand-up comic :cry:

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. You're correct bridgit. If Judy said it, she stole it from Paula.

My brother did Second City in Chicago and got to know Paula -pre 90's fame-...that was a standard for her.

[johnnie]

33. I apoligize if I ever crossed the line

Sometimes I use some of the humor when I do that "today in history" thing, but I don't mean it as mocking or anything mean. But if I have gone too far, I apologize for that.

[mainegreen]

36. Its best not to make jokes of any group. Except the Germans.

The Germans are an excellent butt of any joke.

[Ariana Celeste]

37. ...

:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

40. It all piles up, no matter how thick some people's skin is.

I live in a red state and I have pretty thick skin. Most things do not bother me that much, but when it goes on day after day over an extended period of time, it starts to get old and it wears me down.

I do wish more people would *try* to understand that it's not about us being "sensitive" or "militant." It's about drowning in a sea of bullshit ridicule day after day since before the election this year. I don't know what has gotten into some people here. This place isn't what it used to be and some people on here have really disappointed me.

My mouse is wearing out from scrolling back up to the top to double check exactly which board I am reading lately. :eyes:

[Sapphocrat]

43. Your thin can be as thick as a rhino's...

...but that doesn't mean you ever lose your humanity.

I wish I could say the same for everyone.

[JackBeck]

44. Back when I did the bartender thing I used to tell really bad heterosexual jokes.

And I felt dirty and guilty as a liberal. But these jokes got laughs. And I would never dare to share them around here.

My whole creed is to just "one up them". Outsmart those who are trying to suppress you through humor or outright bigotry.

It seems that she works in a pretty open and welcoming environment. So if these barbs are lobbed at her, develop a come back. Say something that will make their weenies shrivel up into their scrotum sac. Make them wince.

[terrya]

49. I'm getting so sick of the alleged attempts of "humor" around here.

We're ordinary people...like the hetero folks here. We go to our jobs, we pay taxes, we deal with the stresses and problems of the everyday world...just like you. We're just as progressive, just as committed, passionate Democrats as the rest of you. And...we're getting just fucking tired of being insulted with these sophmoric homophobic "jokes" around here. I see it here...and goddammit, do NOT tell me to "lighten up", because that's even more insulting and condescending.

How many times does it need to be said? Hetero people have family members, friends, co-workers who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered. I can't believe that those hetero people would knowingly insult a family member or friend or co-worker. It's so, so....sad.

[NMDemDist2]

60. hi terry

remember when we were mods together and the chit was hitting the fan over "bitch"??

we had some pretty passionate descussions about feminist language and homophobic language

we've come a long way but the road's still long

i want to thank you and aliengirl and a couple others for educating me on GLBT issues and now find the only flamewars I get into are over the GLBT civil rights issues and (more rarely) the sexist stereotyping

i've got your back on this one again and while i rarely visit the Lounge, last night was really something

glad i'm not a mod on this round :banghead:

:hi:

so thanks again to DU for an education on how easily we hide bigotry in the guise of "jokes"

[madrchsod]

52. what you are describing is against the law

but enforcement is another thing is`t it...personally i`m offended by any sexually based jokes. call me old fashioned i just don`t think they are all that funny

[underpants]

53. Okay here's my take on this

First of all when two hetero guys (or girls) tease each other about being gay that are just talking shit that's it. Often, in my case anyway, it points to the stupidity of homophobia or at least that is how it is meant from me.

Now I am not saying "relax" or "be grateful" but we do live in a time when this can be brought up in conversation either as a joke or at least as a topic to discuss, this is a good thing. We, yes WE, have done a good job of opening people's minds about this and as with the rest of the progressive movement in time society will come around to our way of thinking.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. heres my take: you are wrong

i dont presume to know your sexual orientation or how gender deviant you are. but for those of us who gender deviant or not-heterosexual, even in NYC, life is tough. and they more "deviant" from the norm you are, the worse it is.

so i look very much like a girl, and get a lot less flak for being gay (unless of course i am clearly with another girl). my butches get threatened ALL THE FUCKING TIME. some boy comes around and decided he can run her over with his motherfucking truck. somebody else threatens to beat her because she doesnt deserve a woman as fine as me...blah blah


we still dont have ENDA passed. the DADT is still in place. gay marriage is voted down in almost all states where it was on the ballot.


how can you tell me homophobia can be funny?

how can you tell me that these jokes that mirror those of the right wing are funny?

[underpants]

56. How the fuck can an opinion or an intention be wrong?

Good GOD!

I understand all that but my point was (I will post it AGAIN) that this is simply talking shit between two straight guys.

Never mind this isn't worth it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. We talk out of both sides of our mouths...

We say that we're not homophobic and that it's a good thing that we can joke about it because we "care"... And most of us are probably not homophobic, but we crack the jokes anyway.

...and then we turn around and tell our fellow citizens to "wait their turn" that now isn't the right time to "push for this"...that it's not important enough to risk an election over...

...and then we turn around and crack another joke. And this is a bad, sad thing. I am only sorry that it took me longer than it should have to realize that. That I was basically asking people who are very good friends to be okay with something that I wouldn't be okay with if it were directed at me.

[LostinVA]

59. Thank you, MrsG

And, thank you for your avatar.

[ScreamingMeemie]

62. Thank you.

for putting up with this and sticking around. :yourock:

[LostinVA]

58. Oh yes, Massa

We gays are so happy to be getting the crumbs from your table, instead of the scraps from your garbage, like our gay forefathers and mothers. How dare I ask for an actual place at the table.

I'm sorry for being such a disrespectful lesbian and not letting you frame our rights and what offends us.

Please, give me yet ANOTHER fucking kick in the teeth.

[ThomCat]

61. You might not intend disrespect

but that kind of stuff is insensitive at best, and disrespectful at worst. Some people might not be offended, but clearly many of us are.

And any straight person who insists on telling US what is homophobic and what isn't needs to take a step back and really think about what they're saying. Because that just compounds the problem.

[underpants]

63. You know what? You are right

I was thinking about this just the other day but in terms of racism and I came to the conclusion/decision that it is best and the safest thing to do to let those who have been on the receiving end tell you what it is when you aren't sure.

Now the troubling part here is that I didn't say "Wait your turn" as stated in a post above in fact I tried to counter that directly but I don't have time to state it in every possible way.

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. If the "wait your turn" is in re to my post, you missed my point.

Telling people to be okay with something, reassuring people that we still care, and then directly contradicting that is what I am talking about... :( There is no way to state it.

I never said you did say wait your turn. But, by saying it's a good thing we can joke about this...while not pushing very hard for the end of discrimination IS speaking through action...or inaction.

[underpants]

68. No I didn't you are wrong

I specifically was referring to that specific part of your post and the point that it made. I didn't comment on the rest of your post as evident by the fact that I didn't comment on it. I get your points all of them I just didn't comment on all of them only the "wait your turn" part.

Do you get my point? Is there some other way that would help you get my point other than your reading the words I am posting? Please inform me if there is and maybe we can make some arrangements to better facilitate your needs but until then we appear to be stuck with you not understanding the words in front of your face.

[NewJeffCT]

64. When Comedy Central had a roast of William Shatner early this year...

it seemed like half the jokes were aimed at recently out of the closet George Takei (Sulu)

Now, I could see a few jokes tossed at Sulu, since he was a key part of the show and his coming out was fairly recent... but, it seemed almost like a Shatner & Takei roast, and it bothered me that they focused on him so much.

If they had found out Takei had a black relative in his past, would they have made black jokes? Somehow I don't think so.

[snooper2]

66. I don't hear many refrences at my work about gay people per say..

But I do hear statements like this.....example, a couple days ago we were outside smoking and developer friend co-worker says as yellow Ford Focus drives by...

"That car is gay..."

I'm not sure how a gay person would feel about that. But referencing objects as being gay is something I hear a lot of.

[MissMillie]

67. the saddest part is

that if she speaks up, she'll be labelled not only as a lesbian, but she'll be considered "over-sensitive" or worse, "hyper-sensitive".

:hug: to you both.

It's a cold, cold world, and people are lucky when they can find someone to love and someone to love them (and even luckier when that's the same person! lol) I don't know why everyone has to get so hung-up on the details.

[crim son]

69. Wow. I think I'm starting to understand this for the first time.

If an African American man calls his brother a "nigga" it's okay. If I call him a nigga, I'm a racist asshole. If a lesbian and a straight woman joke around about "catching the gay" it's okay. If I use the same catchy phrase but with a straight DUer, I'm a homophobic asshole.

I'm serious. I suddenly get this. And for the sake of peace with all my brothers and sisters, I'm changing my ways. You see, I don't use these terms, but I forgive people who do. No longer.

[buddhamama]

70. Locking...

I am putting this fire out before it becomes a full blown raging inferno.

Sincerely,
buddhamama- DU Mod