How rude is it to be an adult and let your offspring roam freely?

[Deja Q]

Such as using those shoes with the built-in roller skates to injur itself strike up a lawsuit with, letting the 10 year old child ride on the front of the cart instead of in the toddler seat by mommy where it clearly belongs, to let it freely stand close to the customer ahead of it who is using a credit card, or to spank it really hard when it opens the 'emergency door' in the back of the store, forgetting to teach it that not to do that in the first place is the better route...

[LoZoccolo]

1. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuhOj2dQTrk

[Deja Q]

3. Is that Rush Limbaugh's voice?

:popcorn:

[Madrone]

14. LOL

:D

[Redstone]

2. Oh, stop fucking complaining, would you? My son has Heelys, and he really

likes them. You would have liked them if they were around when you were a kid. I would have, too.

Just relax. Life's a lot more fun if you don't object to everything you see...OK?

I'm telling you this as a friend.

Redstone

[Deja Q]

5. Hmmm

I recall a child wearing heelys. They ought to make a training pair because she nearly tripped.

Forgive me for having a stuck up my rear, but I don't like seeing children hurt, nor do I like to see other people being hurt because of an accident that never needed to happen.

I would not have liked them as a kid. I never got the hang of roller skates (Aspies are known for not having the finest motor coordination skills...) and bike riding had its moments too. A useful mode of travel, and even after falling down I'd get back up and continue to my destination, unaware of all the people staring at me with blood dripping off my chin... :)

I don't think my dislike of those "shoes" is irrational. Maybe borderline because I haven't seen a kid hurt itself or anybody else yet. OTOH, I live in a boom town; a mcmansionville. A place where defensive driving is mandatory as nobody else bothers to concentrate on the road... (I swear, Woodbury will end up being as disgusting as Minneapolis... I know some people who work there and, as pedestrians, they have nearly been killed and the cops side with the drivers... :eyes: )

[Redstone]

7. Yeah, but jeez, dude, you come across as being anti-fun sometimes. And I say that

as a friend as well.

The more relaxed you are, the less you object to things, the more enjoyable life is.

Trust me on this; I've been on both sides of the equation.

Redstone

[LeftyMom]

4. Kids are still learning how to behave.

They make mistakes, their parents correct them. Sometimes those mistakes happen around strangers, in crowded public places.

The parent already knows the public misbehavior is a problem, singling the parent out makes it harder for them to respond in a quiet, rational way that will keep the problem from happening again.

The bottom line: You have no kids. You have no idea how to raise kids. Mind your own business.

[Deja Q]

6. I used to be a kid. I know how I was raised.

And kids today are getting away with antics I'd (or others would) have been spanked to death for.

Most kids of today would be shocked to know of "the paddle" (or other tools teachers used on kids of previous generations). Tools that wouldn't be allowed today.

I use that term loosely, as it's easy to misuse a tool.

BTW: if the parent does not tell the kid to step back, then what? I tell them to and let the parent piss on me?

[LeftyMom]

9. We know better about a lot of the things that were normal when we were growing up.

We know that fear-based discipline stops working as soon as we turn our backs, and is utterly useless when we don't outsize them anymore.

We were all kids once. It doesn't qualify us to be parents anymore than having taken a plane makes us pilots.

[Redstone]

11. Yes. Yes. See my reply just below.

Redstone

[Redstone]

10. Yes, the kids would be shocked to know of "the paddle." Because that's child abuse.

Let's see: if you hit another adult, you get arrested. Assault and battery, and all that.

But it's OK to hit a kid, just because the kid is smaller than you?

Justify that, please.

Redstone

[WhollyHeretic]

15. I've never understood it

we're trying to teach kids not to be violent by doing violence to them?
:scratching head:

My son has never once been hit and he is a very considerate child. Not saying he isn't stubborn sometimes, he is my son after all :), but he's almost always thoughtful of others.

My nephew used to have problems in public when he was younger. It was a combination of issues, including his father leaving, I don't think a "paddling" would have helped. He is a very nice and happy boy now though.

[aquaman]

18. Damn,

Well said Redstone.

[Left Is Write]

37. If a child (or anyone else) is crowding your personal space -

it's perfectly acceptable to say, "Excuse me, please. I need a bit more room."

[bleedingheart]

8. can't say it any better

I took my 10 and 8 year old to Williamsburg this weekend, people complimented me on how well they behaved...however it took years of training.

One father of children a bit younger told me..."your kids really play nice..." and seemed stupified that such a thing could happen...I told him it takes a lot of work but is worth it.

I felt nothing but empathy for those folk with toddlers and babies that you just can't control..you just guide them and coddle them...

[LeftyMom]

12. LeftyKid was one of those toddlers you couldn't take anywhere.

There were two big issues. One is that he was very easily overstimulated, and crowds, noise and bright light set him off. Needless to say, we tried very hard to avoid taking him on all but the shortest shopping trips. The other was that he wasn't very verbal. He had a huge vocabulary for his age and his receptive language was fine, but when distressed he had a difficult time communicating with words, which would increase his frustration and eventually he'd hit, scream or bite if nothing could be done to diffuse his frustration in the mean time.

He outgrew the language difficulty and most of the overstimulation issue (it's still a problem when he's tired) but in the mean time, learning how to parent him in harmony with his needs rather than making a battle out of things he couldn't control was a lifesaver for the whole family.

Now people tell me what a well bahaved kid he is almost anytime we go someplace.

[Redstone]

13. My kids are well-behaved too. But it didn't take "the paddle," as the OP seems to think

is necessary. I'll say it again: If you hit another adult, you get arrested. So why is it that you can get away with hitting kids, just because they're smaller than you?

I really hope that your "years of training" your kids did not include hitting them. Because if it did, all that taught them was fear.

Redstone

[bleedingheart]

21. Oh no...I am not a hitter

I am a "remove from the scene", "time out"..."let's have a talk" kind of parent.

I also knew where it was okay to take my kids...

[Deja Q]

24. Fear of what?

I respect my parents, I do not (always) fear them. Now that I'm thinking about it, you have a point. But the flip side is, I'm less likely to do wrong; fear of retaliation. It's a series of trade-offs. And for the children who do not get punishment and grow up to do worse things, maybe they could have used some discipline? (And how many parents know what the "middle of the road" is? I think mine did.)

Mind you, some say I have no life. Maybe because so many people hit me in my life I'm too afraid to go out? (The few DUers who've seen me in person could probably have guessed there's something different and timid about me...)

The difference is, my parents made sure (9 times out of 10) that I knew why I was being spanked. Everyone else beat the shit out of me just for their enjoyment. And with so many people letting that happen as "boys will be boys", a disgusting mindset that's far worse today than it was in 1980, I have every right to express my point of view too. I'll apologize for the extreme nature of it and that I didn't wander into expositional tangents as there are greater issues afoot...

I will say, regarding schools, kids of the 1950s were hit with a ruler when they did wrong. I know people who talk of stories about how chewing gum or having a shoelace undone was worthy of being slapped on the wrist. Now compare to what's going on today (wearing rock concert shirts with explitive-ridden slogans, for example) and wince. (that was my context for that part of my OP.)

[otherlander]

30. "Boys will be boys"...

It is disgusting, isn't it? "They're just children, they don't know any better..." Don't they realize? Don't they realize what that does to the other children? Kids wind up having issues for the rest of their lives because that shit is allowed to go on. Or they just can't take it anymore, no one else is going to end it, so they end it with a gun like the Columbine students, or they just go up onto the catwalk with a rope.

The thing about Columbine that I just can't understand is this. People feel sorry for kids who are being bullied, but then if they get bullied too much, to the point where they snap, who feels sorry for them then? Then they're just murderers, apparently, no need to feel any sympathy, no lesson learned by the school, nothing done to help the others who may be facing the same cruelty, and the same growing darkness within them that may drive them to do god knows what.

[cwydro]

39. That is a very good post.

Sad, that it has gotten this way in this country.

[China_cat]

26. A neighbor of mine was once ranting about

how the only way to instill 'respect' in a kid was to beat it into him. Then he said that he had had little 'respect' until he joined the Navy. I asked him how many times he got beat while in the service. Indignant sputter was the answer....'they never beat me, they wouldn't have been allowed', etc. "well", says I, "you just said that the ONLY way to instill respect is to beat it into a kid. You were still a kid by your own admission when you joined the Navy so they must have beaten you for you to learn it".

You can imagine the look on his face.

[Deja Q]

27. Physical beating or emotional berating?

Both are effective means of subjugation. :)

[China_cat]

32. He was a great advocate of physical beating

for kids and dogs.

[Ptah]

16. A 10 year old is not a toddler.

A child is not an 'it'

[Redstone]

17. Damn. A lot of truth in a few words, right there. Well-said.

Redstone

[amitten]

19. That's right...a child is a person. The problem these days is that

too many people think a child is a deity to be all but worshiped, and certainly never disciplined.

Hence the unending supply of badly-behaved young'uns...

And it's sad, because it's really the parent's fault, but people just end up disliking the kid.

[Deja Q]

23. Thank you.

A well spoken, moderated response.

Though I'll admit my OP was so extreme it was begging for the extreme from the opposite side of the spectrum.

And, yes, it is up to the parents to discipline their children, teach them safety, and give them appropriate punishment when they do wrong. The person who hit his/her child so you could hear her/him ("it" takes fewer characters to spell out than the entire politically correct version) scream from the other side of the store is imposing another form of extremism too.

Would anyone here smack their kid so forcefully for opening the emergency exit door? (okay, for this one I was in the opposite end of the store, but that kid was crying LOUDLY and for some time.)

[Deja Q]

22. A 10 year old should not act like a toddler.

And you're right, the use of "it" is grossly wrong.

I know I would not make a good parent. Some people are wise enough to know they are foolish.

What bothers me is the lack of "Why can't parents get babysitters" responses and the greater societal concerns here. At what point does "let children be children" stop being allowed as an excuse?

[kedrys]

20. Disclaimer: I don't have kids

but little ones walking up to my booth and staring me down while I'm trying to eat is rude. Ruder still is their parents acting all wounded when I try to send said kids back to whence they came.

[Deja Q]

25. Exactly.

To have told the ~12 year old girl in my personal space (and I'm talkin' about 6 inches here) to kindly step back because I'm entering my PIN number, her mum (who was a fair distance back) would probably have gotten all haughty on me too because it's her child and not mine therefore I had no right to say anything at all. (so why wasn't mum noticing her daughter was crowding? Or was it mum's way of trying to get me to shoo along, which sounds bizarre but I put nothing past people these days.) Or worse, but that goes into irrelevant tangents.

[FedUpWithIt All]

34. I am the mom of three

and i somewhat agree with you. We were in a line yesterday. My daughter was absentmindedly wandering closer to the person cashing out in front of us. I told her to step back and wait our turn. She did. SIMPLE.

On the other hand i have had children walk up and grab the items i was purchasing, question me about my choice and asking why i wanted to buy it. With mom standing a few feet away. I usually look up at the parent when these things happen waiting for them to "get it". Usually they don't and i end up dealing with their children. In this case a quick answer and a smile.

It is not the children's fault.

Another time, there were a group of 3 kids, about 14 or so. Again a mother right behind them. The girl was flipping up bottom of her short skirt and flashing the boy in the group her ass. My children looked at me, i looked at mom, mom did nothing but stare off, so i said, "Look my children are standing here, i do not want them to think that the way your behavior is appropriate. Could you please stop until we leave." The four people looked at me in shock for the remainder of the time that we were present. As i walked out the cashier thanked me, loudly.

It is not simply these types of things. I know kid who screams and hits this mother when he does not get what he wants. He is 6. Cries of "I hate you" ring out and the mom ends up....buying the requested item. In every single store we go to the process continues and he leaves with a new toy. Not a chance in hell. Since very early on when my kids would raise a ruckus (assuming it was not pain, illness or the like) in a store we would leave our items and walk out of the store. We would sit in the car, me in complete silence, until they calmed down. i would then explain that if it happened again we would be leaving and ask them if they were calm enough to head back in. When they did, we did. If not we went home. In restaurants we would walk to the bathroom, follow the same process and return to a calmer meal. Each one of my daughters tried these things maybe once or twice and we did not have the problem again.

When my oldest daughter was four, we went on a vacation with another woman and her two children. All of the kids were given a toy ball. The other two kids wanted the same color, pink. So we did a blind pick for fairness. When the balls were picked, my daughter ended up with a blue ball. The girl who got the pink ball began crying that she no longer wanted pink. She wanted blue. Her mother ASKED MY FOUR YR OLD to give over the blue ball. My daughter did. I took her aside and told her that for her generosity i would buy her a treat when we returned home from our vacation. This type of thing happened the entire time.

The thing that bothers me the most is that my kids are often trying very hard to behave often in the midst of other kids running wild. We went out to eat with friends. The children with us were crawling under the table, doing spins in the aisle (nearly knocking over the waitress) throwing food and writing on the table with crayons. Mine were sitting coloring. When the food came one of my friend's children took one bite and started screaming that he wanted ice cream. He was 5 at the time. My friend had the waitress take away his plate of food and got him an ice cream sundae. We have a rule. If your too full to eat a decent amount of food, your too full for dessert. I serve them very little, they have the option of going back for more food. They can opt out of eating the very little first serving but if they do they pass on dessert. So while this boy was eating ice cream in front of the girls they quietly ate their dinner.

I guess the reason for my frustration is that it is never the easiest option for my kids to behave. They have watched how loose it is for others. They don't vent at me. In fact my fourteen yr old THANKS ME for doing things the way i did. But i had two options. Let them do what other kids do, or stick to it and hope they understand one day. I am raising these girls to be women. If i don't teach them to be respectful, courteous and generous where are they supposed to learn it? I understand letting children be children. But i also know that all through life there is a time and a place for everything. My children at home are very different than they are in public. I think it is important to learn these dynamics now. I hope their life will be rewarded for it.

Sorry for my not so little rant. :crazy:

[tigereye]

40. kudos to you, fed-up

it's much easier for some parents to just let their kids run riot, but abdicating responsibility for their kid's behavior is the worst possible thing to do.

:thumbsup:

teach kids to act right, in a gentle, firm and fair way, and they will.

[BuddhaGirl]

28. child-free here

I had something similar happen...child in next booth over SAT on the space between our booths and stared at us as we ate. I stared back, child was not fazed. I asked her to go back to her booth and her mom overheard and shot me a NASTY look, which I returned.

F*ck that crap. I'm all for saying something directly to the kid when the parents aren't doing their job!

[skygazer]

29. Well, I do have kids so I feel qualified to speak on this

It always amazes me the way people leap to the defense of situations they were not in because someone is complaining about the behavior of kids. And how they feel that people who don't have kids have no right to complain because "they don't know what it's like."

There are plenty of kids out there whose behavior is appalling and whose parents do nothing about it. No, I'm not talking about spanking - I never spanked any of my kids. But they bloody well behaved in a grocery store or I quietly scooped them up and removed them.

Now I work in a grocery store and I see kids all day long. Most of them are pretty well behaved and have parents who seem responsible and who keep an eye on them. Then there are the others.

I've got no problem with "heelies" or whatever they're called, in an appropriate setting. I don't see a crowded grocery store as appropriate. I've seen kids inadvertantly run into other customers - sure, they don't mean to but that doesn't change the fact that it could be an elderly person or someone they hurt. They can knock stuff down. It's just not a good place for it.

I've seen carts tip over because kids were hanging off the front or sides. On one occasion, this happened - the 4 or 5 year old climbed on the side, the cart went over, the baby in the seat screamed bloody murder and the mother simply picked the whole rig up, the older kid climbed back on the side and off they went again. :wtf:

I've seen parents who let Junior push the cart when Junior is far too young to do so and the inevitable result is that they run into others, or block the way or knock over displays (had that happen the other day - crashed right into a stack of wine boxes, broken bottles everywhere. "Oh, dear," says Mom, "she accidentally hit it." Maybe if you weren't letting a 5 year old push the cart the day before Thanksgiving when there are 3 million other people in the store, she wouldn't have hit it).

I've seen two women stop to chat for about a half hour right in the way while the 4 kids they had between them simply ran amuck, poking holes in the meat packages, running along the aisle tapping wine bottles on the shelf, trying to climb on a display (when that happened, I coldly asked one of the women, "Is this yours? I suggest you watch it." She was offended - so was I).

People do their kids no favors when they ignore poor behavior. They simply raise a person that no one is going to like very much who thinks they're entitled to anything they want.

[otherlander]

31. I pretty much agree with you.

I think most people could agree with what you just said, but they're arguing from the extremes.

[Kali]

38. I'm with you.

I have kids, and I never hesitate to discipline other peoples' kids in public (or at my house!) if the parents aren't going to do it!

[RetroLounge]

33. What were you doing in Olive Garden

:shrug:

RL

[GirlinContempt]

35. I don't know any 10 year olds who can fit in those cart seats.

[Left Is Write]

36. HT - please don't use the word "it" to refer to children. Please.

I do let one of my offspring roam freely, but she's an adult too, and there's not much I can do about it. ;)

[flvegan]

41. So long as the 10 year olds all smoke outside

I don't care.

I kid, I kid.