Another question for the collective grammar powers...

[Connonym]

When speaking of people, is it correct to say "A girl that knows what she wants" or "A girl who ..."? Does it matter?

[yewberry]

1. I think they're both correct.

It does seem strange.

(Odd corollary: when speaking of animals, use "that" when the animal is anonymous, but use "who" when you know its name.)

[Connonym]

2. It's irrational but

it really bugs me when people use "that" instead of "who" in reference to a person. Like nails on a chalkboard to me.

[yewberry]

6. Sounds funny, but they're both correct. (Citation)

I can't lay my hands on Strunk & White, but here is a link that addresses the question.

(I have the same reaction to who/whom misuse--it IS like nails on a chalkboard!)

[Connonym]

8. Excellent link, thank you!

I'm chagrined that I don't know the proper use of who/whom. That is about to change. TY!

[Hosnon]

10. Who/Whom is still tricky for me...I need a better grasp of

subject/object placement/use before I can master it. (I have a good grasp but it isn't automatic enough to translate over for who/whom yet.)

I'm working on the grammar thing though...

[pink-o]

13. Here's my pneumonic device for that...

"Whom" is the object pronoun, right? Well, so is "him". They both end in "m". So whenever you're not sure, substitute "him" for "whom". Sometimes you have to rearrange the order of words from question to statement, but it works better than telling yourself that "whom" is the object of a verb or a preposition.

Back in the day, elementary school students learned to diagram a sentence and pick out the parts of speech. It's kinda like learning music theory--you don't necessarily need it to play these days, but it makes things a whole lot easier!

[Hosnon]

14. I saw this technique on PBS recently...it's what I've been using ever since.

I would like to master the underlying concept though:).

Thanks!

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. The underlying concept derives from the Germanic accusative case

In German, articles take the accusative if their nouns are the direct object of transitive verbs; pronouns and adjectives function similarly. This results in an ending change for some articles and pronouns, specifically masculine changes from -er to -em. Moreover, the object of specific prepositions take the accusative (others take the dative) - this is why the who-whom transformation remains tied in most cases to prepositions in English (To whom, etc.). In German word order, these changes in ending are often crucial in determining meaning. In English word order, the change from who to whom is non-functional for determining meaning, which is why few people follow the rule, and fewer care. The rule itself is a non-functional holdover resulting from linguistic evolution. It literally does nothing, linguistically speaking; it conveys no information about syntax or meaning that is not already conveyed by context.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. You mean MNEMONIC, yes?

Pneumonic wouldn't apply, unless your mnemonic device requires some rather curious notions about mind-body connectivity, or a weird breathing exercise.

Like I say below, "there's always someone, somewhere, with a big nose, who knows...and who'll trip you up and laugh when you fall..."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. named after the goddess of Memory, Mnemosyne, n/t

[pink-o]

28. Yeah, unless my brains were in my lungs!!!

...obviously, they were in a different body part when I wrote that out, wouldn't you say???

[Left Is Write]

24. Think of it in terms of he/him.

If he is appropriate, use who.

If him is appropriate, use whom.

[Cruzan]

3. Who

Thought you were going to ask something tricky like that/which.

[Left Is Write]

4. It's who.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. It's "who"...

and if the person is the object rather than subject of the sentence it's "to/of/with/for whom".

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. As anything, it only matters if the audience cares about it

Most audiences wouldn't give a flying fuck whether you used that or who in such cases (and they would be right: your meaning is clear). But, as The Smiths were fond of telling us, "there's always someone, somewhere, with a big nose, WHO knows..." In other words, some asshole will circle your THAT with a red marker, and scribble "WHO?" next to it, and put it on the bulletin board near the coffee machine so everyone can laugh their asses off at your lack of education. That man is me. Just kidding. But not really.

It's "who" for a girl, "that" for a dog, and fuck all for your Aunt Mabel.

[Hosnon]

9. I am always part of the audience:) And I'm beginning to care more and more. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Why?

:shrug:

[Hosnon]

12. Dunno...something of a hobby I guess.

The most basic purpose of language (transfer of information) is usually accomplished regardless of proper grammar usage. However, I am beginning to desire to use it well if I am going to use it.

Just a personal preference.

[pink-o]

15. Yeah, but that asshole could be your boss one day...

...or the dude/chick in HR who's reading your resume for the dream job you'd crawl across broken glass to have--and one grammatical error could be his/her decision between you and the other person.

I'm sorry to contribute to the language snobbery--but with the dumbing-down of America in full swing, pretty soon there's gonna be a huge class divide between the literate and the illiterate. Also, to speak English properly is to have confidence in your ability to express your thoughts--ergo, more people listen to you. And there are many times when writing and spelling English properly really influences how people perceive you. (Such as the above example.)


As far as I care, people can speak to their friends with the slang-iest lingo they fancy. Much of our language has evolved from people using it improperly, or playing on words, or putting together sentences which sound cool rather than correct. But there will come a time when it's essential to know the difference, if you ever want to get taken seriously.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. Do you often merely restate people's points in long monologues?

Just curious.

[pink-o]

17. Sorry, I didn't read thru your entire post...

I thought you were saying English grammar isn't important as long as one perceives your point.

Long monologues? I guess it takes one to know one!

[Lex]

18. Yours was much clearer.

nt

[pink-o]

20. Ha Ha..

I deserved that. I'm pretty verbose.

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. Yeah, and one could come out and play shit at random on a guitar

and get across the idea that one wanted to communicate something musical. And people - even Americans - WOULD care about that.

How we use language, and whether we use it correctly or sloppily and slapdash, is important - just as important as whether a guitarist comes on stage and plays the correct notes in the correct order, or just hits shit at random and calls it a day.

Sadly, Americans don't give a shit if a speaker or a writer (or the American him/herself) comes out and just hits shit at random. You are totally right on that point, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

"Wha, well, what the hell matter is it if'n I stills gets my point acossed?"

The issue isn't so much about whether one gets one's point across, it's whether one gets it across accurately - and then, after one has achieved doing so accurately, about whether one does it just good enough or if one strives for the realm of poetically beautiful.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. One can get a point across accurately without holding to the King's English

It does often happen that grammatical "error" leads to confusion. But it is far more common that grammatical "error" leads to a loss of credibility for the speaker or writer. That is a political effect of language, not a problem of meaning. It also has to do with expectations, as was brilliantly demonstrated by Joseph Williams in his classic essay "The Phenomenology of Error" (College Composition and Communication, 32 (1981): 152-68). Go read it and see if you feel the same way afterwards.

For my money, plenty of people who use "less-than-standard" grammar are not only articulate, but also elegant and eloquent in their speech and writing. Consider the following lyrics from Mos Def, for instance. The song is absolutely shot through with deviations from the "standard English," and yet is more meaningful and eloquent than a hundred "perfectly" written reports on racism in America (hell, from the misuse of punctuation on these boards alone, I would say only a small minority have the slightest clue about standard English, and yet meaning happens everyday, amazingly...:eyes:):

Booka-booka-booka-booka-booka-booka
Ha hah
You know the deal
It's just me dog
Beats by Su-Primo for all of my people, negroes and latinos
and even the gringos
Yo, check it

One for Charlie Hustle, two for Steady Rock
Three for the fourth comin live future shock
It's five dimensions, six senses
Seven firmaments of heaven to hell
8 Million Stories to tell
Nine planets faithfully keep in orbit
with the probable tenth, the universe expands length
The body of my text posess extra strength
Power-liftin powerless up, out of this, towerin inferno
My ink so hot it burn through the journal
I'm blacker than midnight on Broadway and Myrtle
Hip-Hop past all your tall social hurdles
like the nationwide projects, prison-industry complex
Working class poor better keep your alarm set
Streets too loud to ever hear freedom ring
Say evacuate your sleep, it's dangerous to dream
for cha-ching cats get {{they}} CHA-POW, {{you}} dead now
Killin fields need blood to graze the cash cow
{{It's a numbers game}}, but shit don't add up somehow
Like I got, sixteen to thirty-two bars to rock it
but only 15% of profits, ever see my pockets like
sixty-nine billion in the last twenty years
spent on national defense but folks still live in fear like
nearly half of America's largest cities is one-quarter black
That's why they gave Ricky Ross all the crack
Sixteen ounces to a pound, twenty more to a ki
A five minute sentence hearing and you're no longer free
40% of Americans own a cell phone
so they can hear, everything that you say when you ain't home
I guess, Michael Jackson was right, "You Are Not Alone"
Rock your hardhat black cause you in the Terrordome
full of hard niggaz, large niggaz, dice tumblers
Young teens in prison greens facin life numbers
Crack mothers, crack babies and AIDS patients
Young bloods can't spell but they could rock you in PlayStation
This new math is whippin motherfuckers ass
You wanna know how to rhyme you better learn how to add
It's mathematics

Chorus: scratched by DJ Premier (repeat 2X)

"The Mighty Mos Def.."
"It's simple mathematics" -> Fat Joe
"Check it out!"
"I revolve around science.."
"What are we talking about here?"

.. "Do your math" -> Erykah Badu (2X) ..
.. "One.. t-t-two.. three, four" -> James Brown ..
.. "What are we talking about here?" ..


Yo, it's one universal law but two sides to every story
Three strikes and you be in for life, mandatory
Four MC's murdered in the last four years
I ain't tryin to be the fifth one, the millenium is here
Yo it's 6 Million Ways to Die, from the seven deadly thrills
Eight year olds gettin found with {{.9 mils}}
It's 10 P.M., where your seeds at? What's the deal
He on the hill puffin krill to keep they belly filled
Light in the ass with heavy steel, sights on the pretty shit in life
Young soldiers tryin to earn they next stripe
When the average minimum wage is $5.15
You best believe you gotta find a new grind to get cream
The white unemployment rate, is nearly more than triple for black
so frontliners got they gun in your back
Bubblin crack, jewel theft and robbery to combat poverty
and end up in the global jail economy
Stiffer stipulations attached to each sentence
Budget cutbacks but increased police presence
And even if you get out of prison still livin
join the other five million under state supervision
This is business, no faces -- just lines and statistics
from your phone, your zip code, to S-S-I digits
The system break man, child, and women into figures
Two columns for who is, and who ain't niggaz
Numbers is hard to feel and they never have feelings
but you push too hard, even numbers got limits
Why did one straw break the camel's back? Here's the secret:
the million other straws underneath it - it's all mathematics

[Left Is Write]

23. Breaking language rules can be good.

I have more respect for those who know the rules before they break them than those who simply can't be bothered to find out. Good writers often break language rules, but they know exactly what they're doing when they do.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. It's not a matter of respect, as far as I'm concerned

It's a matter of effective discourse. Plenty of people don't know the language rules, and don't care, and manage to speak eloquently and effectively within their discourse communities. Consider an African American teenager in Baltimore (I just watched the season finale of The Wire, so it's on my mind). He was never taught standard English with any effectiveness, or if he was, it may have little bearing on his life, since his speech community doesn't use standard English. Within his own speech community, he is able to manipulate symbols effectively, express himself in diverse ways, accomplish things in the world with language, think coherently about his situation and his world, reason about the world, etc. All the good things we do with language. He constantly breaks the rules of standard English in both speech and writing, and probably has little understanding of those rules since they are so foreign to his discourse community (he can probably mock them semi-effectively, or at least more effectively than so-called speakers of standard English can mock African American Vernacular English).

Two points to make:

1) He is fluent in the language of his speech community, which, contrary to the absurd and false belief of many racists, is perfectly coherent and has its own set of rules (many of these rules are broken by white folks pretending to speak AAVE for the purpose of ridicule).

2) Things would certainly go better for our young man if he could "play the scales," or operate fluently in both standard and African American vernacular English.

That said, I have no less respect for his remarkable capacity to use his own language forms effectively, simply because he doesn't know the supposed standard English "rules" he is breaking. He probably breaks even the "simplest" standard English rules - like subject-verb agreement ("She know where to go.") unconsciously. Of course, when he does so, he is following the grammatical rule in AAVE, but let's leave that aside. So he doesn't know he's breaking the rule. So what?

So back off genius
I don't need you to correct my broken English
- Ice Cube

Used to speak the King's English
But caught a rash on my lips
So now my chat just like dis
- Mos Def