Circumcision--your thoughts?

[Lyric]

Full disclosure--our son is circumsized. My reasons were complex and not entirely suited for discussion here. But I've heard a lot from people who are completely opposed to the practice, and I've read a lot of their arguments, many of which make sense to me. Now there is supposedly research showing that circumcized men are less likely to contract HIV during heterosexual intercourse (the main mode of transmission in Africa). I don't know the details, but I'm guessing that it's because circumsized penises don't the the "mucous membrane" texture of the glans that intact penises have, and it's easier for a virus to enter the body through mucous membrane tissue? (I could be wrong here--this is just a guess)

What are your thoughts on the issue? And if there is shown to be a definite link between circumcision and reduction of HIV transmission via hetero intercourse--does that change the nature of the issue, considering the massive impact the disease is having on the largely-uncircumsized population of Africa?

[Squatch]

1. Heavy topic for the lounge, dontcha think?

[Lyric]

3. Yes, possibly.

I see a lot of "heavy topics" here from time to time, and I rarely venture out of this space (which is why I posted it here, I guess). But if the Mods want to move it, I'll understand.

[Squatch]

6. Nah...I was just looking for the punchline after your OP...

[BarenakedLady]

2. Hot topic

:popcorn:

My son is intact. I did my research. I will not debate this topic however.

:)

[Lyric]

5. I understand.

I wasn't really looking for a debate, so much as a discussion in light of the news I'm hearing about the research in Africa. I'm not even sure if the "research" being referenced in the news is something significant or not. I thought perhaps someone else here would have heard something more.

For the record, I have no intention of "debating" it either. I question nobody's choice, and I'm not defending or explaining my own (as I mentioned in the OP).

[musiclawyer]

116. Unless they took into account hygeine practices

I don't think the African study means jack here.

[Richardo]

4. I'm always amazed that it's women who start this debate.

I don't remember a man ever initiating a discussion on the subject.

Ironic, in a way.

[billyskank]

9. Men generally don't start discussions about penises

People might think we are (heaven forbid) homosexual :o

;)

[Richardo]

10. "Live and let live" is our motto

:toast:

[Bunny]

20. You know, I think you're on to something here!

Why *is* it that women worry more about this than men? :shrug:

FWIW, if either of my girls had been boys, they would have been circumsized. Their fathers wanted it done, and I would have gone along with it, but nature settled the issue in her own way so we never had to deal with it.

But what do I know - I didn't breastfeed my girls, either! Perhaps I'm just an awful parent? ;)

[billyskank]

52. Certainly it seems by the evidence of this thread

that the only people who care deeply about this issue are mostly women.

[petronius]

143. Perhaps women bring it up because it's more of a child-raising issue

than a men's issue? After all, it's a decision that is made shortly after birth, at a point when the sex of the child doesn't really doesn't matter in terms of how involved each parent should be...

[hedgehog]

153. Maybe because it's the women who end up having to keep the

little boy clean during the first few years? I just didn't think it was a good idea to have someone else handling my sons' penises that way; especially their mother.

[MrCoffee]

7. i have a month old son, and i thought i'd researched this thoroughly

but this is the first i've heard anything about HIV transmission.

[billyskank]

61. Me too

I'd never heard it before. In the UK only Jewish and Muslim people have their sons circumcised, nobody else does it. I'd like to know why a circumcised penis affords greater protection against HIV. Can't see it being as good as a sheath, though.

[Fleshdancer]

8. When I was preggers I left the decision up to my husband....

we ended up with a girl so fortunately it wasn't an issue but the more I read about it and seriously think about it, the more I'm inclined to say no. My husband does worry about the social issue of raising a boy in America uncircumcised (locker room crap, dating, etc) because feeling embarrassed about your own genitalia we assume would be such a horrible feeling and we all know that growing up sucks enough without any added reasons for ridicule.

At the end of the day though, I'm somewhat happy about the fact that I don't have to personally deal with the issue.

[ironflange]

11. My son once asked me why he was and I wasn't

I said, "It makes me more aerodynamic." He was about four, and looked a little puzzled, but he didn't buy it.

[Hugin]

12. So... We in America are supposed to circumcise so kids don't get HIV in Africa?

:shrug:

I've seen very little support for circumcision.

[Lyric]

46. To be fair:

If this research data proves valid, it will be just as relevant for American males as it is for African males. If circumcision proves effective at reducing the rate of transmission during vaginal/oral sex, it will do so just as effectively here as it does over there.

However, I'd like to see more than just the typical MSM "recent research has shown" spiel in order to feel like this is legit. I want to know who did the research, how it was performed, and what the numbers were.

[Hugin]

58. From my point below...

Condom use and proper hygiene are far more effective as a means of preventing HIV.

The fundies have been pushing circumcision for religious reasons for years...

Putting these two facts together sounds my BS klaxon.

Is someone trying to justify circumcision and not more effective disease control measures?

If so, why?

(Aside... I appreciate your question and I'm trying not to participate in any flames.)

[Lyric]

68. I agree--here's a link to the article I was reading

NIH backs circumcision in HIV fight

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16184582/

Circumcising adult men is an effective way to limit transmission of the virus that causes AIDS. The National Institutes of Health announced today that two clinical trials in Africa have been stopped because an independent monitoring board determined the treatment was so effective that it would be unethical to continue the experiment.

[billyskank]

74. Aha

I think I spot what's going on. Anything to stop people using johnnies, right?

[Hugin]

103. Sure seems to sum it up...

The NIH here in the U.S. is currently overrun by fundies.

They have a real problem with those damned librul biased *facts*.

It gets in the way of their agenda.

[billyskank]

106. I can maybe take a stab at parsing that sentence

"An independent monitoring board determined the treatment was so effective that it would be unethical to continue the experiment."

Let us say that "so effective" does not have to mean "very effective," even though that is obviously implied. Nevertheless, if the treatment was in fact found to be very ineffective, then it would be unethical to cut anybody else's penis for no advantage, I think. And the sentence is still true, if completely misleading.

[Hugin]

83. I find it really really hard to believe it's that effective...

"The National Institutes of Health announced today that two clinical trials in Africa have been stopped because an independent monitoring board determined the treatment was so effective that it would be unethical to continue the experiment."

It's difficult to 'decode' this sentence.

[Tyo]

13. I'm quite fond of my foreskin.

Of course if it had been taken away shortly after birth I probably wouldn't miss it. I do think that it's a decision for the owner of the foreskin in question, not for the parents. I would assume that circumcisions can be performed at any age, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Phillycat]

14. Much more painful if done later.

[Tyo]

23. Figured it might be

Still rather have the option then having the decision made without my input.

[Phillycat]

15. If I had a son, I would do it.

Mostly because I think they look odd uncircumsized. And I've had enough discussions with my female friends to know that is a fairly popular opinion.

[Tyo]

27. That's only because you're not used to it

Asians and Europeans think circumcised penises look odd, even mutilated. I think you need a better reason to remove your son's foreskin than you simply don't like the look of it.

[Phillycat]

29. Well, my son would most likely live in the U.S., not Asia or Europe.

And I'm pretty sure most guys are sensitive about their penises (penii?) being seen as "normal" and "acceptable" both in the locker room and with a girl. That's a good enough reason for me. :shrug:

[Tyo]

32. Well I'm a guy whose "intact" and I've never had a problem

I'm not worried about whether or not I turn girls on so that's not an issue for me but I've always found that in the locker room the circumcision thing is a matter of only mild interest, if at all. I certainly wasn't the only one un-cut. Also I understand that fewer and fewer parents are opting for circumcison these days, so what's considered 'normal' would appear to be changing.

If your husband decided it would be a good idea to have a little "cosmetic" surgery done on your newborn daughters genitals just because he didn't like they way they looked would you go along with it?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Well, lucky fucking you.

Not everyone has had your experience. I am circumcized, but my brother was not. He endured a LOT of outright torture over the issue.

[Phillycat]

37. Well, he says he's not worried about turning girls on.

So, I guess he wouldn't care as much as a regular hetero guy. :shrug: Sorry your brother had to go through that - his experience is exactly why I would get my son circumcized.

[Tyo]

60. Lucky fucking me??

Jeeze, please forgive me for escaping the pain and suffering that uncircumcised guys are apparently required to endure in this country. I feel so bad now that no one made my life miserable in the locker room. Could be a generational difference or maybe I just grew up in a little more diverse part of the country than you and your brother did.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

87. The point is, don't act like your experience speaks for everyone.

You certainly act as if you do.

[Tyo]

112. That's good advice

I don't see where I said that my experience applied to everyone, although it did apply more or less to everyone I knew. I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you though :-)

This is getting a little too intense for me. Take out those scalpels carve away. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm glad my folks didn't have the foreskin hang-up that is obviously so prevalent out there.

[Puglover]

97. Sorry but where are you from?

Dogpatch?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

108. Not even close.

Worcester, MA

[Puglover]

110. Just checking.

I grew up in the 50's and 60's in the vast wilderness of Iowa and have no recollection of anyone in gym class having problem because they were uncut.

[Phillycat]

35. As stated below, there is no comparison between female genital

mutilation and circumcision. That is a completely specious argument.

Anyway, I will most likely marry a circumcized guy, so we will have circumsized sons. It only makes sense. :shrug:

[BarenakedLady]

41. Actually now a days the rate for keeping males intact has grown

I don't have the figures (60/40 or something?) So I imagine by the time my son is in a locker room situation (he is 6) that it will no longer be the issue it was back in the day.

[BarenakedLady]

38. Not all women feel that way.

Granted, I do not have much experience in that regard. However, I find natural to be much more appealing. And I've heard from women married to intact men (who have been with both intact and circ'd men), who swear that the sex is better. I'll just have to take their word for that, though. :)

[Phillycat]

47. Oh, I'm sure you're right.

As I said in my post, it's a "fairly" popular opinion to prefer circ'd penii. I'm sure there are millions of women out there who like them uncirc'd. That's why it's nice that there are so many penii to go around. :D

[Madrone]

152. Only women that don't stop for a second to think about the fact that

such a statement is about the most assholish thing that could come out of someone's mouth. I mean REALLY. Can you imagine the uproar around here if some man said smaller natural breasts funny and should be surgically altered to match their idea of asthetics? Or a man discussing how a woman's natural vagina is ugly and unacceptable without being altered to suit their vision of attractive?

Seriously - this kind of bullshit blows my MIND.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[ghostsofgiants]

16. The fewer sharp objects down there, the happier I am.

[Hugin]

17. Heartily seconded.

nt.

[philosophie_en_rose]

18. Some thoughts.

1) It is a choice that parents will have to decide for themselves. It should be done with anesthetic, however.

2) It is in no way like female circumcision. Female "circumcision" would scraping the entire penis off layer by layer with broken glass and then sewing the urethra shut.

[trof]

19. My obstetrician friend's advice:

Let the son look like the father.
:shrug:

There was also some talk about uncircumcised men and a higher risk of cervical cancer in women, but I don't know whether that turned out to be bogus or not.

[Richardo]

21. That's about the best advice I've heard on the matter.

[trof]

30. He's a pretty smart guy, and much loved by his patients.

When he announced his retirement a few years ago, hundreds of his former patients came in to have their pictures made with him and their kids he'd delivered.
Some of the 'kids' were in their 20s.

[BarenakedLady]

44. Funny I got totally different advice

Except it was from my pediatrician. Maybe because he is Polish? I don't know. He gave me some great articles on the matter when I was pregnant. My son does not look like his father. This has never been an issue. I don't think that as my son gets older, he will be all that interested in comparing his willy with his dad's. :shrug:

[trof]

72. I guess it varies with families and comfort levels.

I didn't grow up with a dad, and our only child is a daughter, so I don't have any comparison to draw on.
Sometimes Jack showers with his dad.
I think mom and dad try to be fairly open about nudity amongst the three of them so that 'nekkid' isn't 'dirty', at least not yet.

I guess my friend's point was that it makes for less confusion in little minds about 'why daddy and I look different'. Having to try and explain at an early age who is and who isn't circumcised and why.

He also said there are virtually no health reasons, pro or con, for the baby. It's done painlessly. He had a little scab for a few days, but it didn't seem to bother him.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richardo]

24. No it isn't.

On edit: :eyes:

[Phillycat]

25. Oh, for heaven's sake.

No it isn't.

[Puglover]

92. Sez Jane.

May not be abuse per se but it took a choice from me that I wish I could have made myself.

[Phillycat]

94. Really?

I have honestly never heard another man say that. You feel like you missed out on something? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually curious.

[Puglover]

102. Do I spend hours a day obsessing about it?

Of course not. Do I wish I had not been snipped. Yep. That's how I was born and unless there was a problem with the foreskin why do it? Because (and I'm not attacking you here) in you and your girlfriends opinions it "looks better"?
I think alot of men don't say anything because again, they didn't have a choice.

And on edit: I have never gauged the validity of my feelings based on what most men think.
:)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

26. Bullshit.

[LeftyMom]

28. Well, I'm convinced by that well-researched argument.

/me phones the pediatrician immediately

:eyes:

[Richardo]

31. See #19 - better squeal on that guy, too.

He's only a doctor - what does HE know?

[LeftyMom]

39. He's an OBSTETRICIAN, not a urologist.

And if he's retired now, one who was probably trained on this issue many decades ago when most doctors didn't even ask before they cut up a kid's penis (and often did any adult male in the OR while he was under for something else.)

Long story short, he probably knows nothing more about penises than a reasonably well informed patient. Especially if he's making the "look like daddy" argument, because that is the most retarded bit of folk wisdom ever. We don't dye a kid's hair or put color contacts in to make them look like Daddy. I have a friend who is an amputee. He and another friend of mine were trying to have a baby and if they had a boy they wanted it cut so it'd look like him. Being a rather blunt person, I asked if the arm would be a separate surgery. He was pissed off at me for a bit, then he realized it is the same thing. The kid's not going to look just like Dad no matter what. The argument there is really about justifying Dad's mutilation by continuing it to another generation. Not circumcising a son means admitting it's a bad idea and that (here's where this becomes problematic, men are emotionally invested in their dicks) his own penis is imperfect.

[MissMillie]

43. When I had my son, it was OBs doing the procedure

Not that my kid is, because he isn't, but it's not the urologist who performs these procedures, at least it wasn't 19 years ago.

[LeftyMom]

56. I know OBs often do it. Peds too, but they aren't experts.

If for some reason my kid a congenital deformity or something that required circumcision (I can't think of any other reason I'd permit it) I'd want somebody who 1. Was up to date in their information 2. Was a specialist.

Getting a circumcision done by an OB makes about as much sense as getting a kid's tonsils out by a podiatrist. Hospitals just prefer to do it that way because OBs are plentiful and already on the L&D ward.

[likesmountains 52]

70. I have worked OB/Nursery for 30 years and have never seen an OB

do a circumcision...and while I won't join in the battle of right or wrong I can tell you that the babies get a nerve block before the procedure and 99% of them spend the 10-20 minutes it takes to do the procedure happily sucking on a pacifier and not crying..

[LeftyMom]

75. That's not the norm though

Last stats I saw over half of all US neonatal circumcisions were done without pain control and most of those that did use some had only EMLA cream.

[Richardo]

104. She just said 99%. How is that not the norm?

[LeftyMom]

115. Because most babies aren't born in her hospital?

:shrug:

[Richardo]

49. That's fine for you and yours. Butt out of everybody else's decision.

You sound a lot like the anti-abortion crowd.

[LeftyMom]

59. It's not "everybody else's" decision.

The decision belongs to the owner of the penis, when they come of age.

[Richardo]

96. In your family.

[sundog]

124. it's a foreskin not a choice!

[billyskank]

127. sundog!!

:bounce:

[Richardo]

137. .

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[slj0101]

50. Is that "emotionally invested in their dicks" thing documented?

I don't remember seeing that in the JAMA. :shrug:

[Richardo]

51. Yeah, that's not a generalization or stereotyping or anything.

[sundog]

151. i think it's in the bible

[northzax]

55. again, seems to be a much bigger issue with women

than with men. Why is that?

[LeftyMom]

64. 1. We're programed to protect our kids

2. Not having dicks ourselves, we can question and re-evaluate the issue without having to cope with the idea that our bodies have been harmed.

[northzax]

101. ah right

cause men are not interested in protecting their kids at all.

and if women get to be the arbitrars of male genitalia, does this mean men can be the arbitrars of women's? of course not.

[LeftyMom]

109. No, but mothers are generally the ultimate decision makers when it comes to kids.

:shrug:

[northzax]

122. not to be cold or anything

but perhaps you need to find a better man, one that wants to be an equal partner in making decisions about kids?

[Phillycat]

126. Well, that was uncalled-for. nt

[northzax]

132. not at all

I took it as an insult to men. If the poster really thinks that women are the final decision makers for children, then I am sorry that this has been her experience. Because it certainly hasn't been mine.

let's summarize the position here:

1: mothers care more for their children and protect them more
2: mothers make the final decisions about their children.

not much to say for fathers, is there?

[Phillycat]

139. No, I agree with you in principle.

But you made it personal. If you had stated, "I think fathers should be just as involved with their children as mothers are", that would be one thing, a statement that I agree with. But you were personal toward Leftymom, which, since you don't know her specific situation, I thought was uncalled-for. :shrug: Besides, I believe Leftymom has been a single mother for most of her child's life, so it makes sense she would feel that way.

[LeftyMom]

145. Did you miss the word "generally"?

But fuck yes, mothers make the final decisions! Why? Because we have uteruses and breasts. Dad could take off within five minutes of conception if he wanted to and biology demands that we be there for the duration. Even the decision to bear a child or not ultimately lies with mom. As a social matter, we generally are more involved in child care tasks. Parents should do their best to resolve conflict about child-rearing matters, but ultimately the decision lies with Mom in most families.

[LeftyMom]

141. Oh my.

1. My child's father was involved in the decision to leave his genitals unaltered. He said the final decision was mine, but luckily there was no debate on the matter.

2. I'd never think of reproducing with somebody in favor of genital mutilation. It's not an acceptable practice and I won't have my child subject to it.

3. I don't need a better man. You, however, could use some manners for even suggesting it. That's not something to say to a stranger.

[northzax]

146. personally, I would never consider

with someone who thinks that my five thousand year old religious tradition is not an acceptable practice. you call it mutilation, I call it a symbol of my covenant with my god and my ancestors, some of whom have been killed due to being circumsized.

But hey, what do us jews know about anything? it's a Christian country, after all.

[LeftyMom]

150. What if your child grows up to be an atheist or convert to another religion?

Is it really fair to mark your faith on his flesh?

[Richardo]

105. Just like men can make objective decisions about abortions, right?

Since they are not invested in the uteruses.

[LeftyMom]

111. Really not analogous at all.

The uterus isn't a visible reminder of femaleness and adulthood. The closest analogy in terms of the emotional relationship between men and their penises, I would argue, is women and their breasts.

[asthmaticeog]

57. And what's YOUR medical specialty?

:eyes:

[Phillycat]

66. ..

:thumbsup:

[LeftyMom]

67. I've done more reading on this issue than most doctors.

I just finished a bunch more for my human sexuality class that finished yesterday. I certainly know enough to have an informed opinion.

[asthmaticeog]

69. Ooooh, you've had a CLASS!

Sorry, professor, my mistake.

Look, I'm opposed to circumcision too, but I make no pretense of having all the answers.

[LeftyMom]

79. As I said, I've read a great deal of literature about the subject.

I'm not saying I know everything there is to know, but I know more than enough to have an opinion based in fact and to have that opinion respected.

[asthmaticeog]

82. Lots of people who've read just as much disagree with us.

That is all.

[northzax]

99. ok, citations, please

peer reviewed only. I want good hard science.

I'll even get the ball rolling:

Maden, C. et al. "History of Circumcision, Medical Conditions, and Sexual Activity and Risk of Penile Cancer" Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 85, No. 1, 19-24, January 6, 1993. and I quote: "Results: Relative to men circumcised at birth, the risk for penile cancer was 3.2 times greater among men who were never circumcised and 3.0 times greater among men who were circumcised after the neonatal period."

your turn.

[LeftyMom]

107. Sure, what do you want to know?

:shrug:

BMJ 1995;311:1471 (2 December)

Falling incidence of penis cancer in an uncircumcised population (Denmark 1943-90)

"With phimosis and penis cancer as two central issues, neonatal circumcision has been the subject of considerable debate for more than a century.2 3 The virtual absence of penis cancer in populations prescribing neonatal circumcision has been a crucial argument in this discussion.1 However, only 511 out of approximately 478000 Danish boys aged 0-14 years were circumcised in 1986 (National Board of Health, personal communication), corresponding to a cumulative national circumcision rate of around 1.6% by the age of 15 years. Thus, the declining incidence of penis cancer in Denmark cannot reasonably be attributed to an increased practice of neonatal circumcision."

[northzax]

119. eh, even Fleiss is simply contrary

interstingly enough, Frisch et al basically pins the higher risk of penile cancer on unmarried males, but then fails to point out that marriage rates for males have declined since WWII in far proportion to the penile cancer rate. makes me skeptical.

Frisch, on the other hand says that infection from the HPV virus is a likely risk factor, and then points out that that circumsized men are more likely to be infected with HPV, but less likely (for whatever reason) to develop penile cancer. which is precisely why this debate is carried out in the letters section of BMJ, not the peer reviewed section.

interstingly enough, the American Academy of Pediatrics (who would, of course, know a wee bit about children) mentions that there is literature supporting circumcision, but not enough to mandate it. it is, in their opinion, a personal decision.

doesn't sound like AAP thinks it is child abuse, huh? (full disclosure, I am cut, as my father, grandfather, etc have been for centuries, it is a sign of our covenant with God.)

[LeftyMom]

135. The AAP almost never tells people what they don't want to hear.

Compare the wording of their breastfeeding policy with that of the WHO for example, the AAP policy is very weak and mealymouthed by comparison.

The penile cancer argument is a bit of a silly one, in my opinion, both because it's quite rare and because it's a slow-growing cancer and generally occurs in men so old that other causes fell them before it poses any real threat to their health. The HIV argument has the potential to be more compelling, or at least it would in a society where condoms were not readily available but sterile surgery was. I just can't think where that set of circumstances would occur.

[northzax]

144. this is mealymouthed?

"# Exclusive breastfeeding for approximately the first six months and support for breastfeeding for the first year and beyond as long as mutually desired by mother and child.
# Mother and infant should sleep in proximity to each other to facilitate breastfeeding;
# Self-examination of mother's breasts for lumps is recommended throughout lactation, not just after weaning;
# Support efforts of parents and the courts to ensure continuation of breastfeeding in cases of separation, custody and visitation;
# Pediatricians should counsel adoptive mothers on the benefits of induced lactation through hormonal therapy or mechanical stimulation.
# Recognize and work with cultural diversity in breastfeeding practices
# A pediatrician or other knowledgeable and experienced health care professional should evaluate a newborn breastfed infant at 3 to 5 days of age and again at 2 to 3 weeks of age to be sure the infant is feeding and growing well."

and, of course, WHO publications are targeted at Southern States, where children are less likely to get decent medical care or food once breastfeeding stops.

[LeftyMom]

148. Compared to the WHO, absolutely.

For example, the WHO advises breastfeeding for at least two years, and has much more to say about the formula industry and against marketing of breastmilk substitutes to mothers capable of lactation.

[northzax]

154. so we should go with the WHO situation?

of course, I guess that means that women shouldn't work during the first 24 months, at least not full time and out of the house.

There is no epidemilogical data in the US that says breastfeeding past 6 months has any significant physical benefits. At that point it becomes a personal choice of the mother. Which is how it should be. You want to go to formula at 6 months? your call. you want to breastfeed until 36 months? again, your call. it doesn't really matter, in the developed world. Personal choice is the best indicator here.

remember the WHO's audience. it's not you, it's your counterpart in Kenya.

[Hugin]

117. Yeah, I think I read in the same article the total incidence of penile cancer is very low to begin..

with.

So, a 3.2 percent increase in like zero cases... Is like ZERO.

[northzax]

120. to be clear

it's not a 3.2 percent increase, it is a 320 percent increase.

[billyskank]

121. Indeed

and just to be completely clear, if we are talking about an incidence of (say) 0.1%, then a 320 percent increase is only 0.32%.

Which I think was the original point. Beware of anybody brandishing stastics.

[northzax]

128. 1 in a 100,000, technically

according to the report cited by LeftyMom above. and that is well above the 1 in a million chance that risk-analysis of toxins and carcinogens undertakes. if somethings has a 1 in 100,000 chance of getting you sick, it is regulated.

PCBs, for instance, that we spend hundreds of millions of dollars taking out of polluted soils, have a 1 in 500,000 cancer incidence rate at the doses most superfund sites have present. and yet we sue the pants of Dow for exposing us to cancer.

[Hugin]

123. So, 320 times ZERO is still ZERO.

From the article you cite.

"Penile cancer is one of the rarest cancers"

http://www.circumstitions.com/Cancer.html

[northzax]

138. actually

320% of 1 in 1437 (according to that exact same site) is a bit higher than zero.

[Hugin]

147. Compared to the estimated 3,000,000,000 males on earth... it's still ZERO.

I'm thinking there are much more urgent public health issues facing the world than
circumcising 3 Billion (with a 'B') men on the off chance it *might* reduce the incidence
of penile cancer in around 1,400 of them.

[northzax]

149. who said anything about mandating it?

pretty much nobody. It's a parental choice, there is data to support both sides. So make your own choice. what's the problem?

[Hugin]

155. I haven't seen any data supporting it...

Or at least any *SIGNIFICANT* data supporting the barbaric practice.

That's my point.

[trof]

118. That's quite a scenario you've constructed there.

A bit heavy on the 'probablys' though.
How long have you known my friend?
I don't think he ever mentioned you.

I bet in real life you're probably a scenery design and construction professional?
:-)

[Madrone]

136. Thank GOD for some sense.

:applause:

[Hugin]

33. Not to mention Condom use and Proper Hygiene are more effective...

at preventing the spread of HIV.

[LeftyMom]

42. And studies in Europe have found intact men are more likely to use condoms reliably and correctly

Probably because they are less bothered by the loss of when a condom is on than circumcised men who are missing many millions of nerve endings and have desensitization caused by keratinization on the glans.

[Hugin]

77. Most cold and flu virii enter through the nose... Chop off everyone's nose.

Same logic as this inane argument.

[LeftyMom]

84. It's just a bit of extra skin.

We could sell it for cosmetics testing or wrinkle cream. Who are you to deny old women with bags under their eyes? Having a nose means you hate old women!

http://www.nbc10.com/health/1808693/detail.html

[Hugin]

95. Oh, HO! Great find!

Could this REALLY be the driver behind the foreskin/circumcision debate?

*tsk*

Just when I thought people couldn't be more crude they start stealing the foreskins off our children.

[slj0101]

36. I love eating at the Olive Garden.

[Richardo]

40. .

:rofl:

[youthere]

133. I use cornflakes to fry my chicken! AND I feed feral cats!

[billyskank]

45. It was only a matter of time

A flame war about penises. My life is now complete. :D

[BarenakedLady]

53. I said I was going to stay out of it

Ooops. I am done now....

:)

[billyskank]

54. You're still on the brink

you haven't fully committed yourself yet! :rofl:

[BarenakedLady]

62. I would never flame anyone

for choices different than my own. However, there is soooo much bad advice and incorrect myths out there still in this country. I know people are getting more educated on the matter, hopefully the doctors too (:eyes:) so perhaps it will soon be that being circ'd is no longer the norm. :shrug:

[PVnRT]

63. A cockfight, if you will

n/t

[billyskank]

65. Indeed

:7

[trof]

73. I'll drink to that.

It's a little early, but what the hell.
:toast:
;-)

[billyskank]

76. It shows great potential

This could be another day in DU Lounge infamy. :D

[youthere]

131. Now be specific...Not penises..FORESKINS.

I think most of the lounge is fairly neutral when it comes to the actual penis.

[billyskank]

134. Same ball park

:hide:

[uppityperson]

48. It all depends.

1. Like father like son. So why cut a piece off a baby just because his parent had it done? If parent had an amputated toe, should they do this to baby also?

2. To look like other kids. I know of people both adults and kids both circumcised and not. There is a wide variation and worrying about looking like the neighbors seems silly since measuring your worthiness to fit in by look seems petty (all sorts of puns there).

3. Anesthesia vs child abuse. As a nurse I have assisted in several circumcisions by a few different doctors. General anesthesia has its risks, as does even local anesthesia. But please ask for it as some use us, some don't. I have participated in both types and yes, it really really hurts and the little babies scream. Theory is that they are too young to remember so the pain doesn't matter. I call BS on that. Inhumane whether or not they remember. However, all anesthesia has risks also (risk of permanent anesthesia which would be nasty too).

4. Cleanliness. Used to be doctors would say "pull baby's foreskin back to clean under it" which would lead to foreskin tearing from penis leading to oozing to scabbing to more problems. Now advice is to clean what you can and don't force it. Foreskin will eventually seperate.

Cervical cancer/HIV tranmission also, IMO come from mostly not cleaning well enough as an adult. Yes, it is possible to transfer viruses, but the risk seems small enough with good hygeine.

[Guava Jelly]

71. I am for it ..and am circumcised

I think uncircumcised wooohoo's look funny.
But thats just me
Not like i had any say in the matter

[billyskank]

78. Let's just clear one thing up

ALL "woohoos" look funny. ;)

[trof]

80. Damn, man. You are on a ROLL!

:rofl:

[Guava Jelly]

85. I have a pretty woohoo though

:rofl:

[miss_american_pie]

86. Oh they do not

And what did yours ever do to you that you should insult it that way? ;)

[billyskank]

89. Mine

gets me into lots of trouble. ;)

[miss_american_pie]

91. So that's her name?

:hide:

[billyskank]

93. ...

:spank:

Nope. It actually serves no function, yet still manages to exercise a disproportionate influence on my intelligence. x(

[miss_american_pie]

98. It has to be that way

or you'd be too smart for us. :hug:

[billyskank]

100. .

:hug:

:*

[RetroLounge]

140. I think Miss Pie just likes to hear us talk

about our whoo hoos...

(Cut, in case you're wondering)

RL

[billyskank]

142. Oh

then for the record, uncut.

[Puglover]

113. No offense but I think

it's funny when grown men call penises "wooohoo's" :)

[jpgray]

81. I think cut ones look pretty!

:bounce:

Seriously though, nobody affected by this (i.e. males) really gives a damn either way.

[Shine]

88. My thoughts are it's a personal decision and not one up for debate.

We chose not to circumcise our son, btw....even though his father is. It's never been an issue and around here, in our county, it runs about 50-50, so he hasn't experienced any locker-room traumas, nor do I expect him to.

[montanto]

90. pass the popcorn n/t

[youthere]

114. When I was in college..

I paid my way through by working as a home health aid (kind of like a nurses aid but you go to the people's house and help them get dressed and bathe and go to the bathroom etc). I worked nights because it wasn't real demanding (as the patients normally slept) and gave me time to study. I worked for this one gentlemen who had terminal cancer. In the mornings I'd help him wash and get dressed and I remember that he was uncircumcised (in fact, it was the first uncut "one" I had ever seen) and as he would wash himself (he preferred to take care of his own 'private area') he would say irritably "If you ever have a son fer' christ sakes get him circumcised!" (well, he was kind of cranky anyway).
Anyway..when it came time to make the decision for my son I remembered that and I guess that's why I had him circumcised, besides the fact his dad is circumcised too.
From everything I had heard/read at the time, there really wasn't any medical reason to circumcise it was just more for "looks" (and I suppose religious reasons for some people).

[Deja Q]

125. Sock it to me!

Oops, "Chop it off me!"

:rofl:

Okay, they already did some 34 years ago...

For general hygiene reasons, I believe was why it was common practice in the 1970s.

Trouble is, and from a clinical standpoint only, disease helps control populations. Free disease and population will grow uncontrolled. It is a universal fact.

Education is the key.

Not to sound like Bush or anything, but no one method is sufficient. People will do it whenever they want (unless they're not deemed worthy in which case they end up working with computers for a living), so whatever it takes to allow them to keep doing what they do without consequences is fine by me.

Unfortunately, economy and sexuality are disturbingly similar. Uncontrolled sex is like using credit cards with no restraint. And how many of us are told to not blow our credit without any form of help?

[billyskank]

129. Hey! I work with computers for a living and...

...uh, never mind... :hide:

[trof]

130. Woo Hoo! "Deleted message"! oktoberain SCORES!

Way to go!
I KNEW ya had in in ya!
;-)

[buddhamama]

156. Locking...

The thread is a flamefest.

I am locking.

Sincerely,
buddhamama- DU Mod