I don't get it..I'm never GOING to get it...

[youthere]

Just got off the phone with my sister. I hadn't talked to her in awhile, and since I had a fight with my mom yesterday I was looking to vent.
Anyway, in chatting with my sister I asked if she was having a big get together. She mentioned her daughters were coming and I asked if my nephew was going to make it and she launched into a twenty minute diatribe about how as long as he was playing around with that "gay" crap he didn't need to bother showing up...blah blah blah. Her son (my nephew) is 25 and came out to the family almost a year ago. His partner is his best buddy from high school.
Now the funny part is, that my nephew and his partner have been to my sister's house for holidays and get togethers before..
Three years ago they were both there for Christmas..Two years ago they were there for Christmas..hell LAST year they were there for Christmas..this year..they aren't welcome. The only thing that has changed is that now we know for a FACT that they are intimate..rather than merely SUSPECT. No one was really shocked when he came out. We all kind of "knew" he was gay. So why was it okay and they were welcomed when we "kind of knew" and it's not okay now that we know for sure?
My nephew and his partner are the exact same people that we have known and loved for the last (in my nephew's case) 25 years, they haven't changed..
I've been trying to understand or make sense of why all of a sudden some in my family just "can't be around them" anymore. Because they are gay? They've been around those two before and they were gay then.
My nephew is still the same sweet, thoughtful kid with the most adorable dimples and the same gorgeous curly hair. His best friend (and partner) is the same funny and kind guy with the great smile who plays a mean guitar. They are the same kids who stole the Schnapps in 10th grade and got drunk behind the school. They are the same kids who played basketball together (all staters I might add). They are the same kids who painted my mom's house and they are the same kids we helped move into their first college apartment. And they were gay then.
To be fair,most of my family could care less and things haven't changed a bit since my nephew confirmed their suspicions..my nephew's coming out was kind of a "What you're gay? That's nice..pass the gravy" moment. But there's my sister and her hateful rant. There's my brother who now shifts uncomfortably around the same kid he used to shoot hoops and go fishing with. He can't even look him in the eye. And of course there are the scattered few ultra religious in the tribe who are teribly sad these two young men will spend eternity in hell.
Maybe I'm naive..but I just can't seem to get my mind around it. Sigh.

[some guy]

1. that's very sad

I don't understand it either.

Hey, maybe you could invite your nephew and his partner to your house for Christmas, since your Mom isn't going tobe making the trek.

:hug: for you

:hug: for your nephew

:hug: for your nephew's SO.

:hi:

[youthere]

52. thanks some guy..

I can always use a few of those.
:hug:

[Deja Q]

2. Forgive my perception, but this reads as one-sided.

Meaning, is the fella in question more "militant" since coming out? If there is one thing that freaks people more than nervous people, it's militant people.

[swimboy]

3. Your response is too upsetting.

[Deja Q]

27. I apologize.

Sorry to have upset you. I think it's clear at this point what a stupid idiot I am. (see posts 23 and 25 for more.) :shrug:

And to think I posted my copy thread about "brain surgery" as a half-joke. Seems it should be in utter seriousness.

Still, the more I say things the more I learn about myself. And others.

BTW: I sent you a PM. (but it doesn't have anything new to say than what's been said out here.)

[sniffa]

6. weLL, that wouLd justify it

hey, at Least the kid isn't being spit on for being gay.

[Deja Q]

34. Spit on? Only spit on? That's nothing.

My dear sniffa, I could tell you some things that happened to me that would put the OP to shame. (my life may be a complex, convoluted piece, but I wouldn't wish my life on others - even if it meant they as a result understood the hurdles I have to face.)

I'm used to the uncomfortable part.

I got used to the name calling and other forms of taunting. Still happens to this day. To most GLBT people (though I have more than being B to go against me...)

I eventually got used to the bullying; because I took it when others said "go beat on him, he doesn't fight back". By now those non-constructive animals are rotting in jail where they ought to be.

I still haven't gotten used to (or forgotten or forgave) the "practical jokes", some of which included semen.

Anything else you want to know? I could (and should) write a book. I don't think I could beat what happened to Dave Pelzer, but I know what happened to me would also make the NYT #1 Best Seller list because people love reading about these things as much as they love gawking at automobile accidents.


I'm sorry the guy's family doesn't like him. That happens to most GLBT people. All I can say is that people need to find friends and stick with them and ditch the bastards who do nothing but hurt. Or am I wrong in that too?

[AlCzervik]

8. the op said they were the same as they always were except now they were out.

why jump to "Militant"?

[youthere]

10. No he isn't "militant" at all..

In fact my nephew and his partner aren't any different at all. All they did was come out. They haven't changed their behavior one bit.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

21. "They haven't changed" was not clear enough, OK?

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

26. See posts 23 and 25. Especially 25.

At least one person openly asked if I had a learning disability.

[Deja Q]

23. I could say I got a bad review at my job...

I would tell you my side of the story.

But I wouldn't tell you my boss's or personality style.

This is not much different.


And thank you much for asking - you're very thoughtful. I have been diagnosed with a PDD (otherwise known as a 'learning disability'...). More than one, actually, but one stands out more for me than others.

And, BTW, I am bisexual albeit gay learning, but bisexual nonetheless and that's all I have to say about that for the moment. I've been down the same road he has, and when I came out I had been militant for some time. And that's all I've got to say for the issue for now (this goes to the other folks who responded to me as well.)

Maybe I was wrong and people are flipped out because they know he's gay. I sure as hell know that sentiment. And maybe he never was militant, in which case I openly and profusely apologize assumed he may have been. I just wanted to ask for clarification from you if he had become more militant since coming out. Some GLBT folks will do that. (and if you want to talk about stereotypes, I know plenty... please don't get me started.)

Be sick of whatever you want. At least you're allowing me a chance to explain myself.

[youthere]

32. It's okay HT..I see what you are getting at..

and it IS one sided..this is totally my perception. I don't see my nephew any differently than I did the day before I found out. Maybe others in the family have another perception (well obviously!). Perhaps they are more sensitve or are reading things into their behavior that they didn't before..I don't know what the heck is going on in their minds.
The religious folks in the family didn't surprise me at all with their behavior. My brother I think will be cool with it in time. My sister really surprised me.



:hug:

[Deja Q]

35. Likewise

:hug:

And, again, I truly do apologize - I did not see the sentence reading he hadn't changed. That does make a world of difference.

I hope the family changes for the better.

Many families do over time, but others don't - and that is tragic.

Even Cheney's must have if he's accepting his daughter's situation. Maybe the religious folks need to look at their role model again and see that if Dick can change, so can they.


I also want to thank you for taking the time to read my followup posts. :hug: I'm not deliberately being evil.

[youthere]

40. well of course I think you're evil..

that's why I adore you!
:evilgrin:

[cboy4]

38. Well, if you have a learning disability that you're cognoscente of,

then you should be far more cautious about the kinds of questions you ask and the kinds of statements you make.

If you say you're bisexual, than you should be extraordinarily cautious about the words you use and the stereotypes you project.

You should know better.

The homophobes value people like you who provide them ammo to further their hate.

I can't think of any militant gays and lesbians.

If someone blew up the church of a person like "Mr. God Hates Fags" Fred Phelps and injured a bunch of people....sure, that could be considered militant.

But what else is classified as militant action?

Regardless of whether you have a learning disability or not, I feel using that "militant" term when referring to gay people is reckless and irresponsible.

[swimboy]

49. These are really excellent points to make cboy

and I appreciate the way in which you've made them.

Militant might just be a word for "uppity" or "self-confident" or even merely "unrepentant". When I came out my parents were upset, not because I was militant, but because they expected me to be repentant and accept the "help" they offered (counseling) and I told them I didn't need help or to be "cured". They just didn't understand but after a while we worked it out--on my terms.

There's a long history of blaming minorities for not being accepted by the people in charge.

[Deja Q]

58. Mostly because my counselor told me. Food for thought,

as a previous counselor once called me "militant" too. And (at the time) he was as gay as I was vocal about equal rights.


I know I strike ire in some at times - but I too have reasons for saying things; most brought about by my interactions in life and my input is as valid as anybody else's. Maybe I wouldn't be hated by some around here if they bothered to listen why I feel the way I do at times? We talk about understanding, but those who are harder to understand...

And maybe I wouldn't be hated if I wasn't so jaded in some of my responses. That's the least I can do.

[LaurenG]

67. Oh Nevermind!

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

75. Ask my ex-counselor for clarification on 'militant'. Even gay folks would be shocked... I was...

By the way, he is gay (want his telephone #?) and called me "militant" for nothing less than having a bunch of bumper stickers on my car, all of which pertaining - in positive affirmations - GLBT equality.

That was up to 3 years ago.

Thank you for asking. At least you asked. Some people just put me on 'ignore' without bothering to ask, much less anything else. A pity...

[foreigncorrespondent]

65. ROFLMAO

And, BTW, I am bisexual albeit gay learning, but bisexual nonetheless

What will it be next week? :shrug:

[Deja Q]

76. The Kinsey scale. Ever hear of it? Obviously not.

ROFLMAO all you want. Your blindness is showing.

Google it and see for yourself. Some sites include tests to determine how far you are on the scale (from wholly hetero to bi to wholly homo with degrees of bisexuality inbetween.) I refuse to waste any time for you, given your current laugh-off attitude.

Next week I'll ask what the definition of... never mind. I qualify more than many...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. what exactly is a militant person?

an armed and dangerous gay person?

[youthere]

17. well if you've ever had a dishtowel snapping fight with my nephew..

you'd know he can be pretty dangerous! LOL. Two years ago our whole family got together at Easter and he and I were on cleanup. Let me tell you OUCH! I had a welt for three days.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. lol.

[Bluebear]

19. 'My nephew is still the same sweet, thoughtful kid' = militant?

Hokay.

[Deja Q]

25. I wholly and utterly apologize.

I did not read that part and, yes, I am diagnosed with learning disabilities. Would anybody like some proof? I have no qualms getting it from anybody. Sheesh, needing proof of something everywhere I go... (doesn't that sound familiar...)

[Bluebear]

28. Oh I would never ask for proof of something like that

You said it read onesided, I took you at your word that you had read it, and now I will take you at your word re: learning disabilities.

[Deja Q]

31. I had been one-sided in my response too.

I didn't realize it at first.

And like I told the person who had diagnosed me, I did mention certain problems I have.

[Bluebear]

33. No matter

back to the story at hand, what a horrible thing to do to this kid :(

[Deja Q]

59. Very true. I do feel sorry for him.

But his kid will find supporters and grow stronger for the experience.

I'm lucky. My situation is reversed. (Don't ask, it's a long tedious story that the people who ought to read it have already put me on 'ignore' for it and they are not worth my time anymore.)

[otherlander]

63. It was a question.

[Bluebear]

64. ?? What was a question?

[rbnyc]

60. Good Lord.

EDIT: read replies. nevermind.

[swimboy]

4. A lot of us have experienced something similar

and the scary thing about coming out is you can never be 100% sure of a person's reaction and you can't take the words back once uttered. You go on ahead and live and take what comes and hope for eventual healing.

I'm sorry your sister feels justified feeling the way she does and I'm so glad you and others in your family still treasure this young man and his partner. I'm sure they value your support more than you know.

[youthere]

12. I'd say the majority of the family didn't even skip a beat about it..

or if they did, they are good at hiding it!

[youthere]

22. I guess maybe part of it is denial on my sister's part..

I think as long as he never said that he was gay, she could pretend he wasn't. I don't know what personal hangups she's dealing with. I never would have thought my sister would have a problem with it but maybe it's different when it's your child. I just can't comprehend why all of a sudden there's this dramatic shift in the family because he told us. It's not that I think I'm so special or so accepting or have this unique wisdom that no one else does..it just really doesn't make sense to me.

[China_cat]

54. You might try asking her if she'd rather he was

a republican.

[youthere]

69. ANYTHING BUT THAT!

Oh the shame! The shame!

[cwydro]

5. I might not have read your post too well...

but is this your sister's son? Or another sibling's son?

It is sad, nevertheless.

[youthere]

13. Yes it's my sister's son..

she has three children..two girls and a boy.

[cboy4]

7. I just want to cry after reading about the responses of your

sister and brother. :cry:

I'm heartbroken. I really am having to hold back the tears.

[youthere]

16. You know the weird part is that my brother and my sister..

each criticize each other for the way they've handled it (not to their face of course.)

I swear I have the most mixed up family in the world.

[cboy4]

29. Hey, who doesn't have the most mixed up family in the

world?!?! lol

But hey, you have relatives who seemingly accept him and his partner, so you're immensely lucky to have them around.....even if your brother and sister aren't on board....yet.

Keep trying to convince them.....I try to believe there's always hope! :)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

9. So your sister had no reaction last year?

That really is weird...

I wonder if she's upset because they now feel free to express their affection for each other in front of the family...
I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be openly affectionate. But I imagine that, for someone who tends to cling to homophobic values, hearing your son say he's gay is easy to handle compared to actually observing his love for his partner.

Is there any chance you could invite your nephew and his partner to share the holidays with you? At least it would give them a sense of family until your sister stops being a doodoo-head.

:hug::hug::hug:

[youthere]

15. She didn't really have much of a reaction when he came out..

She's just kind of acted like this was just a phase or something I guess...you know like something he would "lose interest in". I imagine she's begining to realize that he really IS gay and that isn't likely to change.
The weird part is that at times she acts like she's okay with it, and other times..this. Since coming out my nephew and his partner don't behave any different, at least to me..they live in Wisconsin and I live in Iowa so I don't get to see him that often, I only get to talk to him on the phone once or twice a week. I don't know if they are openly affectionate around my sister or not.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

30. Many people have a hard time accepting change...

especially when change involves something they've had drilled into their heads as being "immoral" or "unnatural".

Of course, being untrue to yourself and denying the person you were created to be is what is really immoral and unnatural. Are you close enough to your sister to have a talk with her about it? Certainly there's nothing wrong with expressing your concern for your nephew...

It's too bad that they live so far away. It sounds like you all really need each other now. :hug:

[youthere]

37. I don't know that my sister would talk to me about it..

I don't have anything to lose by trying though.
After her rant this morning I was so surprised that I didn't really know what to say. Of course after I got off the phone with her I thought of a million perfect things to respond.
When she said he wasn't allowed there until he stopped messing with the "gay" crap (what is gay crap anyway?) I just said "Well he can come here! I haven't seen him in ages!" which kind of got her off the tangent (somewhat) but I really missed an opportunity.
Fortunately my nephew's SO's family is really good to them both..other than a real bitchy aunt no one visits anyway..but that's another story.

If anyone would have lost their mind about this, I would have thought it would be my mother. We were raised in a pretty religious home (ms lutherans) but my mother has just tripped along merrily.

[China_cat]

56. When my niece came out to the family

everybody tried to keep it secret from her maternal grandmother...who is a strict Calvinist member of the Dutch reformed church. They were afraid that it would cause a heart attack or stroke if she was told.

Until one day my sister-in-law had heard her mother going on and on and on about the homosexuals and how they were taking over the country (Holland, not the US) and my sil finally couldn't stand all the nastiness any more and blurted out that her youngest daughter was gay and living in a committed relationship with the young woman she had brought home for Sinterklaas last year.

Instead of dropping dead, the woman said 'C? Homosexual? Oh' and has never said another unkind word about gays. Sometimes the ones you are so sure of are the ones that surprise you the most.

[Kajsa]

72. You might want to remind her,

in a kind way of course,
that;

He is her son
She is his mother

He is the same son she has loved since his birth.

It sounds elementary, but people do lose sight of the
big picture when they go off on an emotional tangent.

I attended a MS Lutheran school for short period of time.
They were very strict in fact too strict for my parents who
were raised as Swedish Lutherans. (In the US, the ELCA)

I'm very glad to hear your mother is open and accepting
of your nephew, as are many of your relatives.

As others posted here, it's a great idea to invite your nephew
and his SO over to spend some time together during the holidays.

Good luck with your sister.

:hug:

[youthere]

74. I think I might dig out some of his baby pictures...

and have my daughter put together a little scrapbook for her (I have no talent with that stuff by daughter does). Maybe that would help her remember that he's still the same wonderful son he's always been.

[ghostsofgiants]

20. That's horrible.

While reading the post though, the idea that came into my head is that maybe your sister doesn't believe he was gay before? So since he came out, she took that as a switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality?

I dunno, I don't get homophobes either, but maybe that would explain the difference in behaviour?

In any event, whatever the reason, that's just sad that she would act that way.

[youthere]

24. I know...

like I said upthread, I never would have imagined my sister would have a problem with it. She's always been pretty easy going and open. I suppose for some it's a different story when it's your own child.
When he came out she just really didn't react much. She doesn't talk much about him when I talk to her on the phone, so I was pretty surprised by her this morning..and just dumbfounded.
Maybe she was in denial..I dunno'.
I do have faith that she will come around...I have to.

[cwydro]

36. Well, it certainly seems that the rest of your family

is setting a good example. Who knows what demons she may have unspoken...perhaps she feels "guilty", some people do, silly as it may seem to us. Or she may be just worried about him and it is coming out this way. I know my mom thought for YEARS that it was just a phase. She still thinks my sister is in a phase, lol.

Maybe you can get her to open up to you and just listen to her non-judgementally.

[youthere]

39. I just can't seem to grasp why this is an issue..

I don't think my sister is horrible or anything..I can't empathize with her struggle because I just don't comprehend it. It's as if she's speaking in a foreign language or something.I wish I could crawl inside her brain sometimes.

[cwydro]

41. Well, I know my mother really struggled with it

not because she had a problem with gayness per se, but because she felt life would be "so much harder" and she of course, wants her children to be happy. That might be part of it...or who knows...some people are embarrassed, or so I hear. She may not even know what bothers her. Maybe you could put her in touch with a parents group. I do think the example the rest of you are setting will also do a lot of good. I hope she comes around.

[youthere]

42. Maybe that's what my sister is feeling..

I don't know. Maybe she's worried about the people in my family that are "against" it (as though it were a vote referendum). The thing is, that other than my sister and brother, there is no relative "of consequence" that has a problem with it. We have the typical fundie branch of the family and the jerks and sophmoric asshole cousins, aunts and uncles etc.. but we don't see that part of the family anyway on a regular basis anyway, and I doubt if my nephew gives them much thought.
Maybe she just needed to vent and now she can start to come to terms with it. She's been pretty quiet since he came out.
At any rate I know that I'm going to work at being there for her more. Maybe with (like you said) some good old fashioned non-judgemental listening she'll make it over the hump.

[idgiehkt]

43. if this hasn't already been said

it's possible she thought it was just a phase. It's also possible SHE has changed. I went through this with my own family; initially when I came out they were relatively okay with it but since then they have become more and more fundie and conservative (my siblings as well) and they are not as accepting. That's why I when I revised my label or whatever, from lesbian to bi-sexual, I never told them. The last few people I've had crushes on have been males, but I never mention it to them.
Sis may be becoming more conservative or something.

[youthere]

47. I think as long as he never actually said the words..

she could pretend he wasn't gay. But he did..and she can't. So now she has to deal with it.

[bleedingheart]

44. It may be the "mourning period"

that is what I called it when my brother came out...

everyone knew he was gay....but when it was unspoken..there was still a chance that he wasn't.

Then he came out....

My mother never rejected him, but she mourned the idea that his life would be harder and that there would be no "norman rockwell" thanksgiving with everyone with their opposite sex spouse and loads of grandchildren....

She then got out of the "mourning period"...and was fine.

The only problem now is that my brother was always an asshole and in fact we have much preferred his partners to him...I actually cried when his last partner left him...but then again his behavior was the reason the guy left him...

[youthere]

45. It could be that..

I really hope that is what it is because that tells me she will eventually come out of it (no pun intended) and I can support her in that.
I suppose there's that part of her that always imagined him finding some nice girl to settle down with.
But he has a partner that is a wonderful person and really cares for him.He treats my nephew with decency and respect. What more could a mother ask for?

[NewWaveChick1981]

46. That is sort of reminiscent of when my brother was forcibly outed by my mother.

:cry: She found letters of his while snooping, and she confronted him with them. He was in his mid-20s. I'm three years older than he is, and my sister is a year and a half older than he is. My mother was extremely upset and called both my sister and me when she found out, and both of us had the, "Yeah? So?" reaction. She expected us to be devastated, and my sister and I were not surprised. It did NOT make me or my sister love our brother any less. He was still the same guy he'd been all along.

Mom took my brother to a psychiatrist to try to "cure" him, and he went but told the doctor he was gay and there was no way anyone could change him. The doctor agreed and thought it was ridiculous for Mom to think otherwise. She tried everything she could to un-gay my brother, including outing him in front of other family members. Nobody was shocked and nobody loved him any less. :) Mom eventually accepted it and now doesn't make an issue about his gayness.

I hope your nephew and his partner get through this OK. I also hope your sister can accept it. :hug:

[youthere]

48. I hope so too NWC..thanks...

when the boys came out, they went to my nephew's partner's family first, because they knew his family would be okay with it..they weren't sure about ours, and were happily relieved that no one really made an issue..at least at the time.
He's a terrific guy and this is so unfair that he should be treated like this.
:hug:

[hunter]

50. I'm still flying my rainbow flag.

:hug:

[youthere]

51. aww..you rock hunter.

:hug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Well, then, arrange a non-bigots-only get-together.

And have a blast. Then send pics of all the fun you had to your sister.

That's what I'd do, at least.

[youthere]

55. That could be a helluva good time!

[Ariana Celeste]

57. I wonder...

if maybe some of her friends, or religious family, or someone has been giving her a hard time about your nephew, and it's getting to her- possibly causing her to act out against him? I don't know you or her at all, so I may be way off base, but it just seems such an odd 180.

Anyways that is very sad for your nephew, and I hope he has a loving place to spend the holidays. Atthe very least he has his SO and that's important. :hug: I know you're having a tough time, too.

[youthere]

61. It's so hard to tell..

heck..I grew up with her and never knew what was going to set her off.
All I can do, I guess, is be good to my neph and his partner and be there for my sis whatever this crap is that she's going through. Sigh.
:hug:

[seemunkee]

62. You can't choose your family

and sometimes that is unfortunate.
I'd call him and chat just to let him know there's some family that cares for him and his SO.

[youthere]

71. I talked to him last night..

and he's fine. Well, not really fine..he's just understanding I guess. He thinks she'll come around in time (I think she will..at least I hope so). They are going to his partner's parent's for Christmas.

[NC_Nurse]

66. Sounds like a bad year all around for your family....

wonder what's going on beneath all the weird messages....

I'd certainly reach out to your nephew and give him my support. Maybe he knows what the bug up your sister's ass is? :shrug:

Sounds like a good year to circle the wagons on your own family and keep the family weirdness to a minimum. We've had some Christmases where I just
pulled out of the family BS because the it was getting too thick and I didn't want any "collateral damage" to happen to my kids. If your nephew is in a good place
maybe he can join your family for the holidays... unless you think this will cause a feud with your sister...Sheesh!

This time of year can be really hard when the family has unspoken (and in this case spoken) unresolved crap going on. I'm sorry this year has been that way for you.
:hug:

[youthere]

70. You bring up a good point..

I think we've reached the family weirdness quota this month. This is just MY side of the family too..my husband's side has plenty of their own drama happening, but fortunately we've managed to stay out of that!
I think given the fact I'm currently in a snit with my own mother I'm being ultra hypersensitive to parental "coldness". I did call him last night and talked to him for awhile. I didn't tell him all the horrible things she said (because that would just serve no purpose)we just made small talk for awhile and eventually the conversation did turn to how "things were going with the family". He told me he's not welcome for Christmas and I said "Yeah, I talked to your mom today and she kind of let loose." He's hurt by it, but he's more concerned about making sure his mom has the support she needs, and was worried that I might be angry with her. He said "She's having a rough time and needs you guys so much."
I invited them to my place for Christmas but they are going to his partner's parent's house. He said they will come down for NY's or shortly after.
I feel better having talked to him. He's hurt by her, but he's not destroyed by any means and feels like he's got plenty of support in the family.
I did get "some skinny" though, that no one else in the family knows yet..they just put an offer on a house, and it's about an hour closer than where they are now.

[MissMillie]

68. you can't get your head around it because it's not logical

your sister is not behaving according to a logical thought process, she's acting emotionally.

:hug: I'm sorry that you have these divisions in your family. We have it a little in mine too (My brother and his wife and kids are fine w/ my gay siblings (and their partners) except for when it comes to them being in HIS home :shrug:). My one sister, after the big fight where this all came out has pretty much written him off. They do speak, but she will not hug him, and has said to me, more than once, "I've lost my brother. He's dead to me now."

Jimmy Carter wrote a great book about how fundamentalists have twisted "moral values". Amazon has it here.

Maybe it would make a great Christmas present for your sister.

[youthere]

73. That's absolutely it..

and you just said (so eloquently I might add) why this upsets me so. I WANT to understand but it doesn't make any sense to me. She isn't behaving logically. Thanks for the tip on the book..I'll look into it. I think it would make a good Christmas gift for her.

I'm so sorry about the drama with your family too. It's so sad. Family is supposed to stick together and love unconditionally. Writing off a family member is such a painful thing.

Edit to add a :hug: ...how could I forget that?

:hug: for your sis too.

[Deja Q]

77. Excellent book. I bought and gave copies to a lot of people last year for Xmas...

:thumbsup: