Is it bad that I yelled at the Salvation Army bell ringer?

[LaraMN]

I was walking into a store and he hollered, "Merry Christmas," and I hollered back (sounding a bit more irritated than I meant to) "Happy HOLIDAYS!"

The Salvation Army wants the city of Duluth to provide a large chunk of funding for a center they're building there. I'm not happy about our tax dollars being diverted to the construction of a building with a cross and other religious symbols slapped on it, so I'm not giving any money to that particular charity, this year. It's just made me even more angry about the assuptions people make about others' religious beliefs, or lack thereof. The bell ringer probably thought I was psycho.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Grinch.

Why do you hate Amerika?

:P

[billyskank]

2. Um, don't they provide like food and shelter to the poor?

Does the fact that they happen to be Christians make their helping the poor illegitimate? :shrug:

I'm sorry Lara, but I can't help but think he would be justified in thinking you were an asshole.

[Mad_Dem_X]

5. I agree

I can't take offense at someone who is wishing me well.

[billyskank]

6. Indeed

if somebody says to me "merry Christmas," I can't take that any way other than "it's Christmas and I wish you a merry time."

The fact that Christmas isn't a holiday in my calendar is not an issue to me. It's an expression of goodwill and for that I am grateful.

[cwydro]

62. I think that is a little much

to yell at the bell ringer. They are volunteers in my town...usually elderly.

Sounds like the season is getting to ya, huh?

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Yes, they do. But they're also homophobic.

Ever since I discovered that, I've given them a wide berth. One of the biggest reasons I shop at Target is that they don't allow soliciting of any kind.

[Hugin]

9. They're not hurting for money either...

How many Billions did the McD's lady leave them?

[billyskank]

10. I am getting really fucking fried with this place

Tell you what, I'll just fuck off and keep myself to myself. Jesus fucking Christ.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. ?

What do you mean? Did I offend you? I certainly didn't mean to.

[Mad_Dem_X]

17. I feel your pain, Billy

Why it's so hard for someone to just say "thank you" and walk away is beyond me. :shrug:

[RetroLounge]

20. and why take a post on DU so damn personally?

Why someone can't "ignore thread" and walk away is beyond me... :shrug:

RL

[Mad_Dem_X]

86. ???

Sorry for wanting to take part in the discussion. I shall slink away quietly now...:shrug:

[Puglover]

72. self delete no point.

[AlienAvatar]

74. Is it bad that I beat up the Salvation Army bell ringer? eom

[liberalhistorian]

131. Ya know, there are days when I

sure feel that way myself!

[LA lady]

18. Didn't Target give them a HUGE donation?

In an apology for not letting them solicit?

[Midlodemocrat]

21. I don't know. But I know they don't allow the bell ringers, or any

kind of soliciting. I think it was more about the soliciting than their policies, frankly, but here we get all kinds of soliciting in front of stores, firemen, vets, girl scouts, boy scouts. I'm not a big fan of it because I almost never have any cash on me, so I feel guilty.

I should probably start carrying some ones in my glovebox just in case.

[Hugin]

23. I don't know, but, 'The Office of Faith Based Initiatives' sure has.

When asked, I say 'I gave through my taxes'.

[Q3JR4]

38. I haven't donated

anything to them in many years. Since, like you, I found out they were very homophobic. Quite frankly I ain't going to do so in the future.

I do have to say, however, that hearing someone yell "merry christmas" isn't going to offend me that much, but I do see where you're coming from. If they were actively pushing their religious beliefs down my throat here I probably would have done the same thing just to make them aware that there are people in the world who don't think like they do.

[noonwitch]

69. I understand your reasons for not donating, but they do a lot of good, too

In Detroit, they run a drug treatment program that will admit anyone-those without insurance, those who have been in every other program in town and been kicked out, etc. They take the "lost causes" that everyone else in town has given up on. I respect this, as a social worker. I also have never heard of anyone being turned away for assistance from them because that person was gay.

They also have a shelter for abused and neglected kids that all the kids love and usually want to return to it after having been at other placements.

The SA also doesn't pay their people huge salaries, and most of the money donated to them goes directly to help others.

So, I do see why you don't want to give them money, because they won't hire gay people. But they do a lot of good, too.

[Midlodemocrat]

70. I know that they do a lot of good, but I'm committed to gaining

equal rights for the GLBT community. I fear that we have 'thrown them under the bus' in a misguided quest for the greater good.

This year truly opened my eyes to the pain that goes along with not having equal rights and I am going to work to change that.

I couldn't call myself a Christian if I didn't at least try.

[Bridget Burke]

101. The Salvation Army's hiring practices discriminate against gays.

Which is a damn shame, since they've done much good over the years.

But the volunteer bell ringers don't set policy.

[LaraMN]

12. They do, and that's why I've supported them, in the past,

but I have a hard time donating, knowing they're pressuring our local government for funding for something that, while it does good, also furthers a specific religious agenda. Those of us who are non-religious are hearing more and more that we should "shut up" about our desire to preserve the idea of the separation of church and state, and it pisses me off.

[billyskank]

14. Well you do what you think best

[MrCoffee]

16. but, is that the bellringer's fault?

i mean, if you don't want to donate to them, that's perfectly understandable, and you have completely valid reasons for not donating.

but the bellringer's just a guy on the sidewalk, you know?

[LaraMN]

22. But that's sort of like (and obviously this is a more appalling scenario)

someone standing on the corner collecting money for some fund raiser (even a positively-motivated one)through Fred Phelps' church. I feel like the bell ringer is an extension of the church or organization, in serving their efforts. And NO I am NOT equating the Salvation Army with the Phelps crazies.

[MrCoffee]

27. so let me ask you this...

(i'm really not trying to pick a fight, i promise!)

are all US federal employees complicit in the war in iraq? do you hold your mailman responsible for the administration's fuck-ups?

personally, i take offense at the high muckety-mucks who set the oranizational policy. kind of like the poor bastard who has to answer the phone at the customer-service number when some corporation screws the pooch and you have to call and vent. it's not that specific guy's fault.

i dunno. i'm certain that you don't have any specific animosity toward the bellringer individually. i'd imagine that they get quite a few frazzled responses from people.

:hug:

[LaraMN]

41. Hmm. I certainly wouldn't ascribe to the federal employee scenario,

but I think it seems like a much more direct act of support for the organization and it's activities, to be a volunteer rather than a federal employee in a branch of service unrelated to the military. My issues with the SA are broad (ie: the homophobic issue), but also local (their actions in my own area are upsetting to me). Someone working for the SA locally feels like an endorsement of their actions in our area. I know it's not the bellringer's fault, but I feel like he's soliciting for a group that does good, of course, but does some pretty shitty things, as well. I don't think I'm entirely verbalizing this the way I mean to.

[MrCoffee]

44. for the record, i absolutley agree with you on the SA as a group

my only point was that maybe taking it out on the bellringer (i'm not saying you totally went off on him or anything) was misplaced.

that's all. i agree on the SA, and i don't donate to them either.

[LaraMN]

51. Well, if it makes you feel better, I didn't scream it at him, or anything.

I think I probably just sounded crabby.:D

[MrCoffee]

54. lol, like 99% of the other shoppers?

happy holidays to you and yours!

[tigereye]

82. a lot of those bell ringers are often folk who are helpe by the SA

so maybe a phone call to the organization might have more effect.

I understand your reaction though, Lara, that's how I tend to react when I see anyone who is trying to sell me the Tribune Review ( a very rightwing paper here owned by RM Scaife). I have had to stop and think about my ranting reaction to the poor folks who are just trying to pay their bills selling his rightwing rag. I would often ask em, "do you know who Scaife is" and get little or no reaction.

I think the bellringer will live, though. ;)

[China_cat]

30. Who is getting PAID for ringing that bell.

[MrCoffee]

35. really? i thought they were either volunteers or recipients of aid

they're on the payroll?

[China_cat]

43. Yep. The staffing agency up the road does the screening

and the hires for them. Pays $8.00/hr plus a bonus if you bring in x amount of dollars (last time I checked it was $1000/day). You work 10 hr days and can count yourself lucky if you get lunch or potty breaks.

[MrCoffee]

46. wow, i had no idea.

[cwydro]

66. They are volunteers in my town.

Usually elderly folks or sometimes town "leader" types (who no doubt would know better than to say somthing like Merry Christmas, lol.)

[youthere]

109. They are volunteers around here too..

Usually boy scout troops or Lion's Club Members.

[FedUpWithIt All]

37. Often they are those who have been helped by the agency. n/t

[Crazy Dave]

33. Yep. And he's a person with better intentions than....

....the majority of self-centered Americans who would rather camp out and fight people in freezing temperatures to get the new Playstation 3 than the very small few who volunteer to stand out in the freezing weather to help those less fortunate. Plus, LaraMN's city government would get a much better return on any investment they make that benefits the less fortunate than what's typical, spending tax payer's money to benefit their wealthy corporate buddies who helped get them elected.

[LostinVA]

Exactly Lara, especially the "shut up" part

Including on DU, and even in this thread.

I wouldn't want my tax money to go to a group that I KNOW truly hates me, and wants to take away any and all rights I have -- to literally criminalize my very existence, my life. THAT'S why I pointedly ignore the bell ringers. It's not their fault, but they are the public face of this incredible discrimination that is often supported by tax dollars. I don't care about the "Merry Christmas" from clerks, grocery baggers, the elderly lady I held the door open for yesterday. I KNOW how they mean it. But, the hell with the Salvation Army. The good they do after disasters is unfortunately more than negated by their very, very Unchristlike teachings and policies -- and, they've lobbied GWB directly to make these bigoted policies into the law of our land.

For the record, Midlo is a practicing Christian of a well-known, mainstream denomination. The difference between her and many others, though, is that she truly understand, embraces, and lives Christ's teachings. She has my highest respect and admiration. Do you people slamming her even KNOW about her offer to match donations?

on edit: And, the government should be aiding the poor and disaster victims. This nation has enough money to do it, if the politicians gave a good damn.

[Midlodemocrat]

48. Thank you for your kind words, LostinVA

I appreciate them more than you know. :hug:

[LostinVA]

60. I mean them, Midlo

I was raised Catholic, and my mother also understands what the teachings of Jesus are about. You, my mom, and others give me hope.



:pals:

[LaraMN]

50. Thank You!

You get *exactly* what I feel about it.

And YES, Midlo is amazing, as are a number of other Christians that I know, who make the religion seem far more honorable and admirable than many do. They can wish me a "Merry Christmas," any day, and I'll happily reciprocate.

[ThomCat]

39. Being christian doesn't make them "illegitimate."

But refusing to help non-christians, and making it a requirement that you submit to preaching to get help means that some people may put their charity money elsewhere.
:shrug:

Charity that comes with strings attached is still charity, and it's a good thing. But it would be nice if charity didn't come with strings attached. As a non-christian I would prefer that my charity donations go to help people, not convert them.

[skygazer]

57. Well, I will say that I have been helped by the SA

And there was never any question about whether I was christian or not (I would have told them the truth - I am not). There was no preaching, there were no leaflets, there was no pressure in any sense. I went to them one year because I heard they would help with Christmas gifts for people who couldn't afford them. I went hat in hand, ashamed because I couldn't afford to buy my three kids anything. They had a room full of new toys and clothing and I was able to choose several gifts for each child. It was so very appreciated.

I have no idea if that was an exception or the norm, nor do I know anything about the whole homophobia aspect that's been mentioned. But my one experience with them was positive and without any religious pressure or attempts at conversion.

[cwydro]

67. Me too.

After a bad hurricane here, they were in the neighborhoods before the Red Cross was, before anyone was. And they were in neighborhoods that one certainly would not imagine the SA would approve of. They did not ask me or my neighbors any questions as to sexual orientation, nor did they attempt to convert anyone. No leaflets nothing. Just good hot food, which for those of us who had no electricity for almost a month, was a blessing. They brought us ice also, in sweltering Florida heat when we had no fans; many of us had lost cars and had no transportation. I am sorry to hear about their homophobic ways, but I always throw a buck or two their way. I will never forget how they helped me and those with much less than me; no strings attached.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. I volunteered for a Salvation Army program in Portland

that served street youth. It provided a hot dinner seven nights a week, a drop-in center, showers, clothing, job placement, a tutoring program to prepare kids for their GEDs, and mediating between youth and their parents.

First of all, it was most decidedly NOT homophobic. When I was in volunteer orientation, they told us flat out that if we were homophobic, we should leave right away because about 1/3 of the kids served were gay or lesbian and had been rejected by their families of origin. During the four years I volunteered there, I never saw a staff member--and that included not only community members like me but outright "officers" (i.e. clergy) of the Salvation Army--treat the kids, gay or straight, with anything but respect. (They enforced rules against bringing in booze, drugs, or weapons; fighting, or talking about drugs or sex in the center, but the rules were applied equally to gay and straight teens.)

Second, although religious services were available on Sunday mornings, no one was EVER required to attend.

I was impressed with the program, and later on, when the city of Portland decided to reorganize its services for street youth, on the grounds that the current setup was helping kids stay on the streets (although most of them had nowhere else to go), the Salvation Army lost its contract. When I ran into some of its former clients on the street in later years, they said that the new providers didn't have their act together as well as the Salvation Army did.

I DO put money in the kettles when I can. The Salvation Army works with populations that no one else is interested in helping, which is a lot more than I can say for some of the people who disparage them.

[cwydro]

84. The manager of the SA thrift store here in KW

was an out lesbian and her SO worked there too. She worked there more than 10 years and left of her own accord. So...I guess their policies must vary somewhat.

[LeftyMom]

75. They have a long history of discrimination against non-Christian employees and GLBT people.

Personally, I'd rather give my cash to groups that don't discriminate.

I wouldn't yell at the bell ringer either, but I do think they are simply too annoying to live.

[liberalhistorian]

129. Exactly, they do a TON of good work

for people all year 'round, and are the last resort for a good many people written off by the rest of society, which is a truly Christian endeavor. To discount their work just because you don't agree with them or like their politics is usually what we slam freepers for.

[Hugin]

3. Yes.

You should've yelled, "JOY TO THE WORLD!" back at 'em.

[Auggie]

4. She's just there to ring the bell.

[MissMillie]

7. bell ringer thinks you're a freeper

yikes!

[SteppingRazor]

11. Dude ... I thought us fighting a "War on Christmas" was a joke

:shrug:

Kidding aside, the Salvation Army's a Christian organization. so you kind of have to expect them to say "Merry Christmas."

I'm in agreement with the other posters. I can't be insulted when someone says "Merry Christmas." It's the intent of the words that matters.

[LaraMN]

15. Really, it's the actions of their group locally that have sensitized me to their expressions.

I have little problem with people saying "Merry Christmas" to me, but knowing the agenda this organization has pushed on our local government, it feels like proselytization, coming from them.

[Oeditpus Rex]

116. The organization didn't wish you a merry Christmas

Some guy did.

[RetroLounge]

19. You might have been a tad bit more irritated than needed

The bell ringers are just the foot soldiers. Most of them HAVE to do that as part of their being given help from SA.

But seeing as how they (the organization) are trying to jam their brand of religion down our throats at the public's expense, and seeing how they are just a wee bit Homophobic, they don't get squat from me anymore...

:hi:

RL

[LaraMN]

24. This was not a person getting help, I suspect.

I saw him packing his stuff into his car when I left, and he had a VERY spendy vehicle (and was dressed a heck of a lot nicer than I can afford to). I'm pretty sure that he owns a business in the area.

[RetroLounge]

52. Ah. Got it...

:hi:

RL

[LaraMN]

53. Had that been the case, I probably would have felt much differently.

:hi:

[Tyo]

25. Personally, I just ignore them

But I can understand where you're coming from. Organizations like the Salvation Army and the Boy Scouts are private and/or religious when they want to discriminate but they are all public and/or secular when they are looking for funding or perks especially from the government. It's really annoying.

There are lots of other organizations, often smaller and local, that do good work and need bucks and don't feel the need to exclude people like me, i.e. gays and atheists. I contribute to those.

[LaraMN]

29. Exactly! I'm certainly in favor of extending people some tolerance,

but the way this organization has behaved locally has really put me on the defensive.

[LostinVA]

45. Good point about them being "public" when it helps them

Hypocrisy wasn't a quality Jesus Christ either lived by nor taught.

[LSK]

26. Bill O'Reilly is going to do a whole show on you!!!

:rofl:

[miss_american_pie]

28. Eh, at the grocery this morning

the guy gave each of my boys chocolate bars. Which means he gave *me* two chocolate bars.

And since they aren't old enough to equate "mommy writing a check" with giving to charity, I gave them each a dollar to put in the kettle. :shrug:

[Whoa_Nelly]

31. Print these out for next time

and then you can say "Happy Holidays" over and over again :evilgrin:

http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/kettlevoucher.pdf

[Hugin]

40. I gave through 'The Office of Faith Based Initiatives'...

Thanks for the vouchers.

[Whoa_Nelly]

42. Did you read the vouchers?

...just wondering.... The vouchers aren't really money at all, and are a promise to donate when Salvation Army stops their anti-gay discrimination. (like that will ever happen!)

[Hugin]

49. Yes I did...

I was merely adding a line to be used when pressed for a donation.

BTW... Any money the SA gets through the "OFBI" is our tax dollars. Whether we like it or not.

[GalleryGod]

32. Yup.

[FedUpWithIt All]

34. I give the kids a few dollars each to put into the tin.

The people are often extremely gracious. I know first hand that the Salvation Army does a LOT of good. It doesn't bother ne for them to say Merry Christmas any more than it would bother me for someone to call out Happy Hanukkah. I simply respond in turn with a similar greeting, smile, they smile back and everyone feels good.

And feeling good is something that is in too short supply in our world.

[Avalux]

36. I think you were too harsh (sorry).

If you don't want to deal with the bell ringers, don't pay any attention to them. Try to understand they're out there doing something that may help others, whether you agree with the basis for it or not. :hi:

[johnnie]

47. If I would have been there...

I would have thought you made yourself look ridiculous. The Salvation Army is a Christian organization and that's what they do. Not to sound like a prick, but you made no point by hollering back "Happy HOLIDAYS" except helping to prove the whack-job right's meme about the "war on Christmas".

[LaraMN]

55. Yes, but they're also a homophobic group, and locally,

they're trying to wrest control of our tax dollars for a building with a giant cross on the front of it (hence my disgruntlement).

[johnnie]

58. Then don't throw money into their bucket

I'm not saying your opinion should be any different, I'm just commenting on your reaction. I seriously doubt that the bell ringer knew (or anyone standing around for that matter) that you said what you said because the Salvation Army is a homophobic group. Chances are, they probably thought "oh shit, another one of *those* people that Hannity talks about".

That saying, I do respect your opinion on the group.

[bullwinkle428]

56. I guess I'm kind of a spineless weenie, because I was greeted

by a Dad with his two little girls ringing the bell in front of the grocery store last weekend that wished me a Merry Christmas as well. I thought it was very sweet that the little girls were out there, and I offered them the same greeting and put a dollar in the kettle...it's hard for me to find fault with the volunteers that are simply donating their time to help generate charitable contributions. I want to try to differentiate between those and the offcials running the organization, who are responsible for some the ridiculous decisions/policies/ attitudes...

[liberalhistorian]

59. Ummm..........actually, yeah, it is bad.

He's out there volunteering his time in the cold to try to make Christmas a little better for those who desperately need it, which, to me, is a major part of what Christmas is really all about, and it really wasn't necessary to yell at him like that. If you felt that strongly about it, you could have just smiled and said "Happy Holidays" in a normal voice.

I agree with you about the funding of the building and assumption of religious beliefs, but please remember that the Salvation Army does a TON of good for people ALL year 'round and not just at Christmas. A lot of the people they serve would have nowhere else to go and no one else who would give a damn about them. Many branches work with the court system to provide probation and rehabilitation services (without the religious component), and their homeless shelters and food pantrys often save a lot of people, including children and families, from going hungry or freezing to death in the streets.

[Mad_Dem_X]

88. THANK YOU!

If you don't believe in God or Christmas or whatever, fine, just walk past them. Don't make a big stink out of someone wishing you a nice holiday. It's not worth it!

[Richardo]

61. You're in Dulut'?

I've got relatives in Dulut'.

[LaraMN]

64. Near Duluth, yep.

:hi:

[jobycom]

63. Meh. Worse things have happened. It's Christmas, people are supposed to be

stressed.

I appreciate the Salvation Army's work, and forgive them their sins, but in a world where we are so assaulted with the Christian message and made to feel inferior and abnormal if we don't believe it, now and then it's hard not to snap. You probably snapped at the wrong person, though. Smile a little nicer at the next bell ringer, maybe drop some cash in the box of a local charity you do like... The world will go on.

Just my HO.

[lizziegrace]

65. Yes.

I volunteer for organizations I believe in. I'm sure the bellringer does the same. Just because beliefs don't match others doesn't justify yelling at someone.

[Rosemary2205]

71. OK scrooge.

Listen, if it gets to the point you are yelling at complete strangers then maybe it's time to, like, switch to decaf? :shrug:

[some guy]

73. it's just a darn shame

you didn't go to the store yesterday when you were in a tongue-kissing mood :P

:hi:

I am sad to have to say, I think you were a bit harsh; after all the guy has to stand there ringing that damn bell for hours at a time. :crazy: Those bells irritate me in less than three seconds, I can't imagine having to be right there with it for hours at a time.

:hug: :*

[San Diego]

76. I berated one earlier this year.

I asked why I should give my hard-earned money to an organization that lobbied the Bush Administration to allow it to continue to discriminate against gays and lesbians yet still receive Federal 'faith-based' funding.

This was outside of a grocery store in the gay area of town.

The guy was speechless. He just stared at me.

[Zavulon]

77. Yes and no.

I completely agree with Billyskank's first posts in this thread. If a Jewish person wished me a happy Hannukah, for instance, I wouldn't bother to "correct" him at all or imply that he was wrong to extend good wishes in accordance with his own religion. He wasn't trying to convert you to Christianity, for pete's sake.

However, I get so annoyed that those loud bells are being rung in my ears that I don't have the sympathy for the SA ringers as much as I would if they weren't staging a coup on my hearing with those fucking bells. Ergo, although I think you were in the wrong, I wouldn't hold it against you. In fact, I'm sorry you didn't have a pie ready to fire into his face.

A few years back Target banned the SA from having those ringers in front of their stores. That year, I did any and all X-Mas shopping I could reasonably get done right there at Target. It was heaven not having those fucking bells pounding away at my eardrums, and I wanted to thank Target with my business. My stance doesn't have anything to do with religion at all (I'm agnostic and still appreciate wishes of "Merry Christmas"); I just feel that if you're going to hit me up for money you need to be polite about it, not overbearing in your attempt to make my eardrums pop like kernels of fucking corn.

[Hugin]

78. Don't fret it Lara at least you acknowledged the ringer's presence...

Unlike the 99.9% percent of people who avert their gaze and spinelessly skitter by.

[Tyo]

83. I ignore them, but I don't "spinelessly skitter by"

And I think it's best that I ignore them rather than stopping to share with them what I think of their bigoted hypocritical organization. I mean it's not the fault of the poor bell-ringer.

So I just walk by and if they seem to be directing a merry christmas at me I smile at them and maybe say merry christmas back otherwise I just pretend they don't exist.

[AlwaysQuestion]

79. A vote for the Sally Ann

I'm an atheist and I give to the Salvation Army every year. Dollar for dollar, I think they do a great deal of good. So, yes I champion them--at least in our community. As for the religious bit, what the hell, they're the least offensive to me.

As for your outburst, you should be made to go to your room to hang your head in the corner perchance to calmn down and reflect upon your immaturity and propensity for rudeness. Naughty Lara, naughty Lara.

[jarab]

80. Wish I could give them more ....

and feel guilty when passing a bucket up.
They're not perfect by any means, but show me a charity that is. Even Second Harvest had to go through a vetting process to be THE one for DU.
And, I'd never chastise their low-paid workers, as I wouldn't take my frustations out on the fast food boy/girl-at-the-window. If it's worth getting my ire up, it's worth going to the top with complaints/actions.
jmo
...O...

[enigmatic]

81. yes

Very.

[SacredCow]

85. I've grown weary of this whole anti- "Christmas" thing....

I just can't understand why anyone would want to condition themselves to be offended by this. And I say condition because this just wasn't an issue 10 years ago. Frankly, I've got plenty of other things to worry about.

[LostinVA]

93. I personally am not the least bit "anti-Christmas"

I don't consider myself a Christian anymore, but I love Christmas.

What I am is anti-bigotry and discrimination, wrapped up in a nice "family values" package.

I do give some money to religious charitable organizations, but ones that embrace all people.

[SacredCow]

112. I didn't intend to imply that anyone was "anti-Christmas"...

as in some kind of jaded Ebeneezer Scrooge. I'm talking about people who for no real reason demonize the WORD "Christmas." It seems silly and a waste of time to me. I feel the same way about gay "marriage." As a gay man, of course I'd like to see some kind of legally binding union, but I don't give a flip WHAT it's called....

[Courtesy Flush]

105. I feel that way about the flag

Just because the flag wavers make a mockery of it does not mean that the flag doesn't stand for what it ought to.

Sadly, those who avoid displaying the flag are often those who adhere to its true meaning the most.

[pdx_prog]

87. I really don't get you people sometimes...

For a group of people that are supposedly intelligent, tolerant and compassionate you are the biggest lot of whining, judgemental assholes I have ever seen.

Give me a fucking break.

I volunteer ringing the bell every year along with my Boy Scout Troop (Yes, Boy Scout Troop where I am a Scoutmaster).

So what if he said Merry Christmas....Do you think he purposely said that to piss you off? We say "Happy Holiday's" to people and open the door for them. We instruct the boys to say "happy holidays" to be tolerant of people's beliefs (Hmmm...doesn't sound like the biggoted, homophobic organization that you all seem to know so much about does it?)All of the people that ring the bells are volunteers that are giving up there time to help someone else. That's a lot more than I have seen evidenced by any of you people here.

We help people out constantly.....that's what we do, that's what we teach. We help with no questions asked. We don't care (and neither does the SA) if you are gay, Bi, straight, woman, man or a mix of everything rolled into one. We help people who are in need. We collect food for the food banks, collect clothing for the homeless and anything else we can do.

You all need to take a long look in the fucking mirror and ask yourself who you have helped out lately other than yourselves. Quit your fucking whining and go out there and do something to make change happen instead of bitching about it.

Sorry, rant over...

[LostinVA]

90. Who are "you people"?

ON edit: And, I suggest you look at the DU charity drives going on now, AND find out the charitable donations and volunteerism of EVERY DUer before you go off on some totally uneducated rant.

[pdx_prog]

102. don't try to put words in my mouth

You don't want me to criticize because a lot of people here are giving and helping, but a lot of people here are criticizing the SA for helping just because they don't believe in the same things?

We should be happy that there are organizations that do this and support them whatever their beliefs as an organization are.

[WhollyHeretic]

136. Would you feel the same way if they were racist instead of homophobic?

[Midlodemocrat]

92. Seriously? Can't you read?

Check out Skinner's donation post and then come back here and tell me I don't help out.

And, you might want to check out the global mission statement of the Salvation Army. They're pretty much against everything dems are for. Just sayin'.

That doesn't negate the good that some branches do, but I'm not giving them another dime until they retract their homophobic mission statement.

[pdx_prog]

96. You mean this one?

The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church.

Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.




These are not evil people.....their goal is not to piss anyone off. THEY HELP PEOPLE. They actually help a LOT of people. Bottom line.

I support any organization that helps people. I don't care what their beliefs are. Do you really think they would withold aid to someone because they are gay or straight or Jewish or athiest?

[LostinVA]

97. You don't care what their beliefs are?

Oh boy.

I bet money you're not gay, or "gay friendly" like Midlo, because if you were, you never would have spoken those words.

[pdx_prog]

106. I really have no idea what you are talking about....

and you would definitely lose that bet my friend.

If an organization refused to help anyone who wasn't straight or wasn't Christian (or wasn't gay or athiest or green or blue)then it would be a totally different story, But they help lots of people of all faiths and beliefs all over the world.

I'm not thrilled that the SA touts itself as Christian but I for one will not refuse to help them because of it.

[cwydro]

108. See my post upthread

the SA here does hire gays, so I have no idea where all this is coming from. They offer help to people regardless of sexual orientation. The manager of the thrift store here for ten years is a gay OUT woman and her SO worked there too.

[ThomCat]

114. They're goal is to use help people AND convert people.

It's that second part that causes the conflict. They use their clout to advocate for very reactionary and un-progressive policy.

[skygazer]

117. I would like to see some documentation of this

Also some documentation of the supposed bias against gays. I have nothing but my own experience to go one but when I approached the SA for help, there was NO questioning whatsoever about my religious beliefs (or my sexual orientation for that matter or my marital status or anything other than my need).

Please show me proof that they try to "convert" people because I've not seen it.

[WhollyHeretic]

118. How about the freakin' backroom deal that tried to cut with Bush that would allow them to get

federal money but discriminate against gays in their hiring practices.

[skygazer]

120. Link?

I keep seeing stuff like this but no link. Also, this doesn't address the other posters allegation that one has to submit to "conversion" to get help.

I'm not defending anyone who is homophobic - I'm simply stating that in my experience, the SA was one of the only organizations that opened their doors unconditionally for me and I have not heard of these other allegations. I'm asking for info so don't get all shrill with me.

[WhollyHeretic]

122. Oh, I'll get right on that

:eyes:
Look it up yourself. I know the story is true, it was a huge fucking story, it happened right after Bush took office.

[skygazer]

134. You know, you act like I just called you a liar or something

I didn't nor was I rude to you. I explained that I wasn't aware of something and asked for further information. And I wasn't even asking you originally - I asked someone else who responded snidely himself.

Why is it that so many people around here get so fucking nasty when someone asks them for clarification? I'm not attacking you nor am I defending anyone - I'm asking for information and you act like it's some kind of personal attack. I really don't get it.

Happy fucking holidays.

[ThomCat]

133. See my post a few down from here.

[S n o w b a l l]

135. When you've had personal experience

...you feel differently. You can't help but to support them and see the good they're doing. If they were discriminating in the help they were offering, I could understand.

My uncle was a hard core alcoholic, could never keep a job or a place to live. He was living on the streets or sleezy motel rooms. My mother used to drive around looking for him and often would find him laying behind motels and various other places passed out drunk.

The SA took him in, gave him a place to stay and a job. He now owns a home, has a job & a wife and is living a normal life. They literally saved his life. And they did not try and convert him or even ask about his faith.

They help all people...bottom line. And because of the favor they did for our family, I will support them and always put dollars in the pot.

[cwydro]

119. Yep, and as I keep saying

they certainly hire gays in my town.

[ThomCat]

126. If you haven't seen the proof you haven't looked.

They fought for, and won, the right to hire and fire people based on their religion even when they are using government money. They are a religious organization with a religious purpose, so they are allowed to require religious faith.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/16103prs20040224.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4945299

They are writing Spreading the Christian Gospel into their job descriptions.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_16_40/ai_113855514

Basic information about the Salvation Army, including their Evangelical Mission.
Its mission is:
1. to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ
2. to meet human needs in His name without discrimination

It is famous for:
1. Its evangelistic work
2. Its social work
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/salvationarmy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/salvationarmy_1.shtml

"Although we are a denomination of the holiness movement, we have a ministry that is unique among the body of churches, the body of Christ in America," said Gaither, 62, national commander of the Salvation Army.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/CB05ECAB715F4C738625722A00055EC2?OpenDocument

[Tyo]

104. So being tolerant means smiling and taking my money

But excluding me? "You people" have an interesting definition of tolerance.

Mods, please don't shut this down. This is way too much fun.

[ThomCat]

111. There are some awesome rants here at DU

but that wasn't one of them. Look who turns out to be the whining judgmental asshole. :eyes:

Go ahead, pat yourself on the back a bit harder for volunteering your time. It doesn't seem like you're done yet.

I've done as much community service as you or more. So have many of the people here, but we don't do it through organizations that officially push bigotry. Just because you can ignore the bigotry of the boy scouts and SA doesn't mean anyone else should, or that anyone should get grief from you for making that choice not to support bigoted organizations.

Have fun with your volunteer work, but don't throw it in anyone's face. That kind thing gives all volunteers a bad name.

[Tyo]

113. Exactly.

End of rant:mad:

[pdx_prog]

130. I'm not throwing anything in anyones face....

We all help in our own ways. As far as bigotry in the Boy Scouts or the SA I have never seen it. I am just trying to point out that these aren't the evil organizations that a lot of people on here suggest they are. The good they do far outway the bad (or the conceived bad).

[spoony]

121. Too often many people here seek to be offended.

The OP is a perfect example. Their work is all negated by the crime of being religious, so they deserve to be yelled at, berated, have propaganda shoved in their kettles, etc.

Now they're all atitter about your post, I mean how dare you belong to the worst organisation ever, the boy scouts! You're not pure! You're not allowed to vote for Democrats anymore! ;)

[WhollyHeretic]

125. So I guess it doesn't matter to you that they're homophobic?

Would it matter to you if they were racist? sexist? anything?

[spoony]

128. They are not perfect, they are not evil either.

Both the boy scouts and the SA do good work. I will not EVER piss on them for their efforts. Are they perfect? No. Neither is the party. Neither is life. Neither are the companies many work for. Neither are the goods we buy. Seeking utter purity will leave you alone and broke and unable to make any progress at all.

I'll take a little over nothing any day.

[WhollyHeretic]

132. If it was racism instead of homophobia would you still support them?

[cwydro]

127. well said

and some of these easiy offended people smoke. Wonder if they look into Phillip Morris and its contributions.

I personally have never seen the SA discriminate against gays; I have only seen them help out in my community. I judge by what I see, not what someone tells me to believe.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. NO......maybe if you had said "FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKER'

it would have been mean..but you werent mean

and seperation of church and state should exist

and if we were really a kind country and took care of our homeless and hungry ..then we wouldnt have to be so dependent on private charities

[Mad_Dem_X]

91. So they can't say "Merry Christmas" and expect a response?

I totally do not understand this. At all. If you have issues with the organization, okay, but don't snap at the bell ringer because he/she said "Merry Christmas." :crazy:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. he got a response..she said happy holidays.

[cwydro]

95. Seem to be some people who

are wrapped a little tight this "holiday" season. Sheesh.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. its not just one set of people...dear god...one would think Lara killed someone

[cwydro]

110. Hey, she did ask

and I don't see anyone doing anything other than answering her. The more inflammatory responses are more about the SA itself rather than Lara.

[spoony]

124. You'd think the SA had too. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

98. Too bad you didn't have some acid.

A nice face full of acid would have shut that evil mother fucker up for good. :sarcasm:

[johnnie]

103. Hell yeah!

I used to throw acid on the little old ladies that asked me to help them cross the street. Shut 'em right up.
















It's a joke people, maybe a bad joke, but a joke non-the-less. :)

[Patiod]

99. "Merry Christmas" to a stranger just shows a parochial mindset

Merry Christmas to your neighbor Mrs Perelli, the Methodists on the next block, the guy with the priest's collar or the lady ahead of you in line who is wearing a Santa Claus sweater - that's great. You know what they're celebrating - go for it.

But to assume that a total stranger shares who is putting out no signs at all about their religion tells me 1) you live in a tiny, isolated place where you assume EVERYONE is the same religion or 2) you live in the big wide world with the rest of us, but haven't had a lot of exposure to people of other faiths.

[ThomCat]

115. Well said.

:)

[spoony]

123. On your bike.

Merry Christmas is a well-wishing, therefore I doubt many of you have to worry about hearing it since you do such a great job of being antisocial twazzers.

[Quantess]

100. Next time, say "IT'S NOT CHRISTMAS!.......

...It's December 21st."
;)

[Moderator]

137. Locking.

Unfortunately, civility has gone out the window in this thread; no point in allowing it to continue.