Time for rethink on the clitoris (BBC)

[eppur_se_muova]

For two millennia it was a "little hill" - the meaning of kleitoris, its root word in Greek.

But an Australian urologist, Dr Helen O'Connell, has revealed that the clitoris is shaped more like a mountain than a hill.

Her work is forcing a re-write of anatomy books and a rethink among medical professionals.
***
"The sex industry has known about this for some time," said Fiona Patten from the Eros Association, Australia's adult retail and entertainment industry body.

"You only have to look at the adult products on the market to see that they are not designed to find some tiny button at the top of the vagina.
***
more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5013866.stm

Whether you have one or whether you don't, enjoy reading about it. The anatomical diagram does not much help the article, FWIW.

[nosmokes]

1. i bet the read count goes through the roof for this post. ;)

thanks for the article.

[butterfly77]

2. I was working on the computer the other day and...

as I was scrolling back and forth I began to look at the mouse and thought who decided to design it like a vagina with a clitoris...

[A-Schwarzenegger]

3. "the clitoris is shaped more like a mountain than a hill"

Seems like they should have gotten this straightened out a long time ago.

[maxsolomon]

4. who doesn't know it connects through to the G spot?

mrs. solomon sure does!

:evilgrin:

[GirlinContempt]

6. huh?

[idgiehkt]

12. has the G-spot ever been anatomically documented?

I'm really confused about this topic. This article seems to suggest that what was referred to as the 'G-spot' is really a part of the clitoris, which is much larger than previously thought.

[pokerfan]

86. How can this be a scientific mystery?

It's right under our noses. Well closer for some than for others.

Wiki is no help. Words like "once believed" and "now reported to be." Is it somehow moving? And with no forwarding address? How rude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_spot

I once read that was somehow related to the base of the clitoris. With the urethra in between. Pressure on the G spot applies pressure to the base of the clitoris.

Hell if I know. What do the owners of these things say?

[BlueIris]

49. I knew, I knew, I knew!!!

One of the most "missed" facts about it, in my experience.

[Sparkly]

5. Isn't it mostly a matter of semantics

and labeling; which parts are called part of what? Or am I wrong?

Seems like it's an argument designed to make what's called the clitoris larger. (The old "size mattering" question.) :shrug:

[idgiehkt]

10. here's the argument

"If you lift the skin off the vagina on the side walls, you get the bulbs of the clitoris - triangular, crescental masses of erectile tissue."

The idea had been that the clitoris is more than just its glans - the "little hill" but Dr O'Connell discovered the mistake 17 years ago.

Frustrated that she kept failing a medical exam, she went back to the anatomy books for answers. She discovered they were wrong.

"They left it out," she said. "It boils down to rivalry between the sexes: the idea that one sex is sexual and the other reproductive.

"The truth is that both are sexual and both are reproductive."

[Sparkly]

13. I still don't get it.

:dunce:

Seems like a difference in labeling to me. Aren't both sexes sexual and reproductive anyway?

[idgiehkt]

18. lol

I think the gist of the problem is that the medical textbooks' anatomical diagrams are grossly innaccurate as far as I can gather from reading this, which is a big deal. I guess we'd have to have a picture of the incorrectly labeled diagrams to really understand just how erroneous the labelings are; we are spoiled in the west but all we have to do is look to the east to understand how this could have come about through cultural assumptions that men are much more sexual than women, etc, i.e.; the doctors beliefs about the female anatomy were shaped by what they believed, instead of what lay before them, which is unscientific, to say the least.

[tigereye]

54. are you saying that it's structural underpinnings

are much larger than previous acknowledged?

Or that the structure itself is much proportionately larger than previously thought?




(haven't read the article yet, she said lazily.)

[idgiehkt]

70. this post shows the diagram

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=5992523&mesg_id=5992566

[Phillycat]

7. IBTL

[myrna minx]

8. LOL!

http://www.amazon.com/Englishman-Went-Came-Down-Mountain/dp/6305428557

[idgiehkt]

9. "The clitoris rivals the penis in size."

"The vaginal wall is, in fact, the clitoris," said Dr O'Connell, who is based in Melbourne.

Dayam. I suddenly have developed an attitude.

:rofl:

[miss_american_pie]

11. OMG

Does this mean we all have to start having that blood flow-intelligent thought problem now? ;)

[idgiehkt]

14. maybe we can scratch ourselves and spit in public too...

:shrug:

(and...um...I don't know about you, but I already have that 'arousal surplus=intelligence deficit' problem :blush: )

[Sparkly]

15. Ever had "blue ovaries?" nt

[idgiehkt]

20. all the time

lol.

[miss_american_pie]

16. ROFL

I admit to nothing. Nothing.

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. And all this time I thought

that was a satellite photo of the Persian Gulf. :shrug:

[Twillig]

99. Sales of Ferrari's and Pick-up trucks should pick up.

[RetroLounge]

17. Duh, I've know this for years

my secret is out...

:evilgrin:

RL

[undeterred]

19. The clitoris was "discovered" in the 17th century

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f05/web1/na.html

Nobody knows when the penis was "discovered".

[Sparkly]

21. The penis was discovered in 1970....

... as I recall...

[RetroLounge]

22. ...

:rofl:

RL

[Anarcho-Socialist]

62. Yes, it was discovered by Sir Geoffrey Sinjin-Penis D.Sc.

Fellow at the Royal Anatomical Society.

[pitohui]

64. not long after sexual intercourse was discovered in 1963 i suppose

:-)

[idgiehkt]

71. rofl

:roflmao:

[idgiehkt]

23. sigh...

it just slays me

"In ancient Greece and Renaissance Europe, mainstream society considered women as lesser or deformed men; contemporary understandings of female genitalia supported this conception. The ancient Greek physician Claudius Galen argued that women and men had differently located, but essentially equivalent genitalia. As the more perfect sex, men had sufficient body heat to allow genital protrusion, while weaker women's genitilia remained hidden from view. Galen's idea of equivalent anatomy persisted until the discovery of the clitoris in the seventieth century, when two Italian anatomists..."


always with the Greek and Roman bullshit... :puke: What is that, a few thousand years or so...And human history spans how long?

Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago.<25>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapien

I don't know how many times some jerk-off scientist claims to have re-discovered the clitoris, and I wish they'd be done with pretending to 'discover' stuff in general...God, was it discovered that time by some guy named Gustav Clitoris or something?

I know I discovered mine sometime when I was in the single digits, and I never looked back. :)

[undeterred]

24. two Italian guys looking at dead women: Gabriel Fallopius and Renauldus Columbus

And the one guy gets his name on our tubes for the rest of history. There was already a famous Columbus, so I guess he got the short end of the dick, I mean stick.

[idgiehkt]

26. rofl

:rofl:

whatta buncha dorks. :eyes:

That whole perspective seems so twisted to me.

[undeterred]

28. Can you imagine what kind of lovers men were to women?

Ignorant.

[Sparkly]

29. After centuries of "discoveries," that hasn't entirely changed, in all cases... nt

[raccoon]

91. I second that. nt

[idgiehkt]

33. depending on the culture.

I know that there have been women throughout history in these sex-hating cultures that still managed to 'put it down on em' pretty good, regardless of the restrictions. And in a lot of them sex was a sacrament. It's just crazy to think about the history of the human race as far as sex goes but one thing I know for sure is that it's a total lie that humans,and women in particular, started out sexually repressed and got more liberated. If anything, the reverse is true historically.

[myrna minx]

27. Have you read the Anatomist?

http://www.amazon.com/Anatomist-Federico-Andahazi/dp/0385491336

I picked it up, because the author was heralded as the next Umberto Eco. I thought the book was ok, but I found it somewhat unsatisfying.

[undeterred]

31. No, but I did a bit of study in the history of science

Its interesting how the use of the corpse (which people objected to) really made the study of anatomy (and therefore scientific medicine) possible... amazing how many other things were affected by that knowledge too.

[InternalDialogue]

51. Just imagine.

We might be drinking rich, Fallopian coffee, were it not for a couple centuries and some matter of fortune.

:think:

[myrna minx]

25. LOL! Gustav Clitoris!

I just sprayed my coffee. :spray: I'm going to work "him" into my everyday lexicon. :hi:

[Sparkly]

30. Reminds me of the SNL skit about "Colonel Angus." nt

[undeterred]

32. He doesn't come around here.

:hide:

[Fuzz]

41. When I've overstayed my welcome, just tap me on the head

and I'll kindly take my leave.

[undeterred]

42. ...

:party:

[NewWaveChick1981]

35. It took all these scientists, doctors, and other professionals HOW LONG to realize this?

:rofl: Damn, I could have saved them a lot of trouble and educated them myself. :rofl:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

60. I know -- I've been saying this for years

[NewWaveChick1981]

87. Amazing what women could teach scientists, huh?

:hi:

[LostinVA]

89. Tell me about it

Every woman I've told about this has laughed and been like, "So? What else is new?"

[In_The_Wind]

36. Damn! I'm glad we finally have a proper description!

:evilgrin: I wonder if it'll help.

[undeterred]

38. Drawing an arrow in magic marker sometimes helps.

:evilfrown:

[In_The_Wind]

39. I tried a tattoo.

:shrug:



maybe X should mark the spot

[sarge43]

57. A flashing neon sign sometimes works n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

40. i read something similar to this a few years ago

The point being that the clitoris is not just a bump; it is basically large and Y shaped, but the erective tissue isn't apparent, being part of the sides of the vagina.


This is NOT a really new idea.

[CTyankee]

52. I think throughout the ages a lot of women have

come to know this through experience.

Sorry about the pun.

[UncleSepp]

43. Important stuff for urogenital surgery

There has been a problem with urogenital surgery and the preservation of women's sexual function. The assumption was that the functional part of the clitoris was the glans, the part you can usually see. With a better understanding of the structure of the clitoris, a woman's sexual function can be better preserved after surgery.

[idgiehkt]

44. yes, I think that was the whole point.

:rofl:

but I don't think anyone is focuing on that, lol.

[UncleSepp]

75. Yeah, the focus seems to be on "Let's find a way to make this stupid"

:crazy:

[Sparkly]

47. Ohhhhhh......!!

:dunce:

[idgiehkt]

48. yep

that's in the last paragraph of that article, on that doctor. She's a urologist.

[Orsino]

45. Making a mountain out of a molehill.

It's a little late for a redesign, anyway.

[Oeditpus Rex]

46. 'What's wrong with a kiss, boy?

Why not start with a nice kiss? You don't have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at the gate! Give her a kiss!"

[idgiehkt]

50. this should be taught to men in school

I just want to repeat it even though I know it's a joke:


"You don't have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at the gate."

Guys, please keep this in mind when performing oral sex. That is all.

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. Oh, there's more

"Suck the nipple, sir."

"Good. Good, Richards."

"Stroking the thighs, sir."

"Yes, I suppose so."

"Oooh, sir. Biting the neck."

"Good. Nibbling the ear, kneading the buttocks, and so on and so forth. So there are all these possibilities before we stampede towards the clitoris, Watson."

[idgiehkt]

55. very good points

but when guys get down there and get ready to go to town they need to kind to work their way up to the bull-eye...there are tons of nerve endings there and it is sensitive. They really should teach courses on that. Hell, I would, I could probably use the extra money.

[CBHagman]

68. Reminds me of the line from the movie "La Buche."

And I'm paraphrasing.

Milla (Charlotte Gainsbourg) describing her first lover: "He made love like a soccer player -- straight for the goal and no hands." :rofl:

It sounds better in French.

[kath]

76. I LURVE that scene in "Meaning of Life"! Thanks for posting it, Oedipus.

[Book Lover]

56. OK. As the editor for two undergrad anatomy textbooks, I have to say

that I have found an interesting factoid. I have every major US undergrad anatomy textbook in my office right now, and looking through them, I see that the clitoris is labeled only in the illustrations (in the illos, it is shown as a structure that does not extend any further back/up than the pubis symphysis bone); in all cadaver photos, the clitoris is not labeled at all. Nor is it easy to determine from the cadaver photos where the clitoral structure is, as it is surrounded by fatty tissue. Plus, the act of preserving a corpse for dissection does alter the tissue somewhat, so that adds to the difficulty in finding the structure in the photos themselves.

[idgiehkt]

58. DU is an amazing place.

Someone needs to bring this to Skinner's attention. I mean, whoda thunk we'd have verification for a thread like this, right here in the lil ol lounge.

:rofl:

[undeterred]

59. Today we proved we can discuss sex intelligently

without descending into debauchery.

Here's to Gustav of Clitoris! :toast:

[idgiehkt]

72. I love

intelligence and debauchery equally though. They fit together like a hand in a glove...or a ________ in a _______.

:toast:

[Ouabache]

61. I am a non-medical, non-physiologist but couldn't this be proven

conclusively with some MRI studies? Doesn't an MRI slice and dice physiology in such a way that same structures throughout any given cross-section could be positively identified?

[Book Lover]

65. Indeed

I fully plan on discussing this with our authors and my boss. This could be a great hook for our edition in ... certain markets... :-)

[undeterred]

66. MRI doesn't use contrast

Its not easy to distinguish soft tissue structures on an MRI. I would imagine it looks the same as surrounding planes of tissue.

[UncleSepp]

79. Yes it does, but it isnt necessary for imaging the clitoris

"Most imaging modalities use injectable contrast, or dyes, for certain procedures. MRI is no different. What is different is the type of contrast we use, how it works and why we use it. "

http://health.howstuffworks.com/mri8.htm

"MRI is probably the most sensitive method of showing soft tissue abnormalities..."

http://www.roboradiology.com/mri-soft-tissues.htm

Purpose
We determined the magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) characteristics of normal clitoral anatomy.


Materials and Methods
A series of MRI studies of 10 healthy, nulliparous volunteers with no prior surgery and normal pelvic examination was studied and the key characteristics of clitoral anatomy were determined. A range of different magnetic resonance sequences was used without any contrast agent.


Results
The axial plane best revealed the clitoral body and its proximal continuation as the paired crura. The glans was seen more caudal than the body of the clitoris. The bulbs of the clitoris had the same signal as the rest of the clitoris in the axial plane and they related consistently to the other erectile structures. The bulbs, body and crura formed an erectile tissue cluster, namely the clitoris. In turn, the clitoris partially surrounded the urethra and vagina, forming a consistently observed tissue complex. Midline sagittal section revealed the shape of the body, although in this plane the rest of the clitoris was poorly displayed. The coronal plane revealed the relationship between the clitoral body and labia. The axial section cephalad to the clitoral body best revealed the vascular component of the neurovascular bundle to the clitoris. The fat saturation sequence particularly highlighted clitoral anatomy in healthy, premenopausal, nulliparous women.


Conclusions
Normal clitoral anatomy has been clearly demonstrated using noncontrast pelvic MRI.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15879834

HTH :hi:

[undeterred]

80. Wow. I hope they don't start using MRI at the airport.

:blush:

[UncleSepp]

82. LOL Me too!

I have enough trouble in the airport as is ;-)

[idgiehkt]

73. I think they mentioned MRI in the article

but it's been a while since I read it and I forgot what it said about it.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

63. Damn, I can't find the link

Just kidding :D

[idgiehkt]

77. a little to the left

no...up a little

there

no...back to the right and down just a tad

no...

[LostinVA]

90. hehehehe

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

67. I think this thread is on a slippery slope, my friends.

But maybe not a mountain,

maybe a stalactite.

or a stalagmite.

Depending on who's on top.

:)

[undeterred]

74. Well lubricated slopes are slippery.

I'm just sayin' :shrug:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

69. I certainly rethink it every time it nears my

tounge.

[KitchenWitch]

78. Hmm, to lock or not to lock!

:evilgrin:

[tinfoil tiaras]

81. This thread has more views than the Rachael Ray EVOO flame war

you little perverted DUers!! :) :rofl: :rofl:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

85. Who are you calling "preverts"?

You introduced EVOO to a clitoris thread, like it's some kind of personal lubricant.

hmmm. EVOO. tasty.

:blush:

[tinfoil tiaras]

92. LOL!!

:rofl:


You see what I mean now...EVOO. :P

[Elidor]

83. .

[BlueStorm]

84. This is really confusing... n/t

[chknltl]

88. Everything I need to know I learned here in the big ol' DU

It used to be I had to go out to the bars to learn about this stuff!

[Yavin4]

93. The Only Way To Resolve This Is Through Practice, Practice, and More Practice

Interrupted by a brief snack or two, and then more practice, practice, practice.

[LostinVA]

97. You forgot staying hydrated n/t

[Connonym]

94. The interest in this thread

says to me that we do need a place to discuss sexual topics in a serious manner. Let's face it, we find the subject fascinating and there's a lot to talk about. Couldn't there be an 18 and older folder where we could discuss mature topics and if we did get a bit immature about them sometimes would it really be that bad?

[NewWaveChick1981]

95. I think that is a most excellent suggestion.

:thumbsup: :hi: I'd be there in a flash!

[LostinVA]

98. I wish there was some way to do that, too

In a public forum, there unfortunately probably isn't.

[havocmom]

96. Has Shirley Valentine weighed in on this issue yet?

:evilgrin:

[Avalux]

100. Locking.

We tried to keep this thread open, but the conversation has digressed. Thanks for your understanding.