Need insights from veterans

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

My husband has been working with a National Guardsman who has been called up to go to Iraq. In talking to him one day, my husband noted that Bush was AWOL from his unit. The Guardsman said, "That's ok. He was a pilot." My husband said, "But Gore went to Viet Nam." The Guardsman said, "But he was in the Quartermaster Corps, and they don't do anything."

My brother was in Viet Nam in the Quartermaster Corps, and won either a Bronze or Silver Star (I forget which). You don't win this type of medal for "doing nothing." I was so mad I wanted to chew this guy out, but my husband said just to let the thing drop, so I did. Now the guy is waiting to be shipped overseas.

Here's my question for vets out there: when this Guardsman gets to Iraq and is in the combat zone, do you think he will change his tune? Will he still think George the AWOL pilot is wonderful? Will he decide that maybe anyone in a combat zone is a heck of a lot braver than someone who shirks their duty stateside?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Who knows and this man

(I am assuming I know) may be preparing himself mentally for this

As is I was a medic (not the US Military) and many thought we did
nothing.

By the way Gore was not a QM, but a reporter... for Stars and Stripes and had to go into the field, and HE VOLUNTEERED to do such.

But he may change his tune soon after he remembers how to DUCK

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. thanks for the information

I didn't think Gore was QM but wasn't sure what branch he was with. My neighbor was a medic with the 101st in Viet Nam, and came back and immediately joined Viet Nam Vets Against War, an organization in which he is still active (and this guy was a volunteer, not a draftee-he believed in the war before going over there). So I have hope that this fellow may have his mind changed.

[HereSince1628]

9. Where in the command structure is reporting?

My memory is the following...where X = Unit size which could be company, battalion, etc.

X-1 headquarters & service (as in communications)
X-2 is intelligence (haha!)
X-3 is operations
X-4 is support

I am guessing that reporters could be in with the special services folks(theaters and other recreation) but I don't remember where they were.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Well I am guessing HQ

but he did go to the field.

He volunteered and he did not believe in the war

Moreover, QM in the Army are LOGISTICS, now the navy is Navigation

hence why Rates, or MOS can be so confusing

[HereSince1628]

21. Yes, QM is X-4 but is reporting really in QM?

I am confused

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. No Reporting is not QM

The MoS right now is 46R

[jmowreader]

26. Public Affairs is a G-1 function

If Al Gore was a reporter for Stars and Stripes, that's a separate command. It's at DOD level.

[bratcatniok]

2. A point of interest

There has been no finding that Bush went AWOL by any legally controlling authority, civilian or military. I think the charge is baseless. AWOL is a legal definition.

My brother is in the Air Guard, misses days all the time and makes them up later.

Besides both Clinton and Dean dodged the draft so I don't think that riding this horse helps at all.

[benddem]

10. Neither Clinton nor Dean dodged the draft.

Clinton just didn't volunteer. His draft number never came up but he didn't support the war like Delay, Bush, etc etc. Howard Dean has a congenital deformity of his spine. The Army DOESN't want people in the army with this condition. YOu can go all your life without a problem but one wrong move and you are a disabled Veteran for the rest of your life. The Army physical is intended to keep people with congenital deformities out of the service. Clinton would never have been accepted in the military because of his asthma.
There is a HUGE difference between people who don't get in and those who choose to use family connections to get out.
You are also wrong there is adequate documentation Bush never showed up for duty. His records in TX have been dumped but other records exist...besides no one in his unit remembers seeing him.
When you sign up for the Guard or Reserves...pushing ahead of more qualified individuals, using your father's connections etc and then not fulfilling your commitment that is not only wrong it is against the law.
x(

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. You are right

There was a website that had copies of official papers that showed that Bush got his position ahead of others, that he didn't show up for a physical, and was AWOL for about a year. They even offered a reward of $10,000 for anyone who could prove they saw him on duty after he left TX, but as far as I know, this reward was never collected.

And you are right about people with congenital deformities. My husband wanted to enlist in the Navy, but he was born with a congenital heart problem, and was classified 1Y.

[Wwagsthedog]

22. This is my 666th post

This website?

http://www.awolbush.com/

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. Yep

thanks for the link. Didn't have it bookmarked on this computer.

[michaelbmoore]

13. You are correct. . .

Bush was never charged or convicted for being AWOL. He simply was not there for the last year of his commitment, if you were able to find the records he was probably reassigned to the inactive NG or Reserve at some point. He also lost his authority to fly and pilot status, but kept his wings. Not exactly stellar performance, but probably not uncommon then. If he did that these days, he would be charged with AWOL after 2-3 missed weekends and then discharged after a couple more. The 60's and 70's were different for the Guard (though many Air Guard pilots and units served honorably in Vietnam).

[scottcsmith]

17. Did Bush deserve his spot?

Bush apologists seem to conveniently ignore this point: despite getting the lowest possible score on the pilot's aptitude test, Bush was jumped ahead of more qualified candidates. Bush stole a spot in the Guard that rightly belonged to someone else, someone who in all likelihood ended up being shipped off to Vietnam.

Because of his name and who he was, Bush didn't even have to attend officer training before being commissioned.

Bush avoided the draft like most rich kids his age in the 1960s: by getting a cushy spot defending his home state from attack in the Guard.

[atreides1]

19. Not a Point of Interest, Just Typical Freeper History

Clinton didn't dodge the draft he was registered, but his number was in the high 200's to low 300's. And even during the '68 Tet Offensive
they did notr reach those numbers.

My boss and one of our customers also had high draft numbers, they didn't get called up either, as for Dean he was given a medical exemption but was placed in a category that made him eligible to be called up in the case of extreme circumstances.

As far as Bush being AWOL, it has been reported eleswhere that both his commander and deputy commander in Alabama do not even recall him reporting for duty. Bush was relieved of flight status for refusing to report for a medical examination that included drug testing.

And let's face it if your dad had friends in all the right places, i'm sure that any record you had would be conviently expunged of any
questionable actions.

And Bush's evaluation by his commander states that he was unable to evaluate the officer due to the fact that said officer had never been
seen performing duties. And some other facts the unit in Alabama did not have any aircraft assigned to it, Bush's first request for transfer was denied by his commnder in Texas, and the F-102 was being phased out by the USAF.

During my time on active duty there was apolicy that if a Guardsmen or a Reservist failed to report for their drill dates, they were placed on active duty for the remainder of thier enlistment. This practice was stopped around the mid-80's.


That's the difference between the Air Guard and the Army Guard, there
is more of a sense of duty in the Army Guard, some of the Air Guard that I have known want to be just like George. Wear the uniform but not have to pull the hard duty. Notice I did say some, perhaps your brother is one of those "I want to be just like George" clones.

And if anyone wants to flame me, bite me first. Personally there seems to be more and more Freepers showing up here, and creating
trouble.

[rasputin1952]

30. First faults with your post...

bush did not show up at his next duty station. That is either Awol, desertion or dereliction of duty, depending on whatever the Commander wishes to press for, and circumstances surrounding the event.

Your brother most likely sets this up in advance, and, I might add, "makes up the days later". bush did neither. He was refused the posting he wanted, then he just didn't go his second choice.

Second, defending bush, especially during a time at which he is willing to sacrifice some of our yourth in his insane war on Iraq, is NOT conducive to common DU behavior. Many of us have friends and relatives that are in harms way, or already on the casualty roles.

If you are an ardent bush supporter on his denying that he went AWOL, I won't stop you. BUT, have YOU ever served? Are YOU willing to go down to the recruiter, right now, and sign up?

I spent my time, defending your right to speak, but I'll be damned if I have to agree.

O8)

[militarymanusaf]

3. Sounds like this guy will get a badly needed

reality check. Bush was/is AWOL but it appears that most people don't care. It seems to be rather difficult to support a Commander-in-Chief who's AWOL.

[northofdenali]

6. Alert sent. Bush was AWOL. Daddy got him out of it.

My still-close but ex served 3 tours in 'Nam. Don't even give me the "Bush served" crap.

[benddem]

5. The guy is a moron

I didn't realize that that is how they are getting away with having Bush as Commander in Chief...when he was not only awol but a deserter. AWOL is AWOL it doesn't matter what your job is.
Gore was a photographer. I'm pretty sure that is not in Quartermaster corp...but in Vietnam like Iraq everyone had an equal opportunity chance to be wounded, decorated or killed or get very sick. We had nurses killed by rocket attacks. A number of nurses received purple hearts in all the wars since WW1...just to make the point you don't have to be infantry...or a pilot.
I'm a Vietnam Veteran...a nurse and I'm offended that people in the service today accept the lies about GW.
Tell the guy to stuff it.:toast:

[northofdenali]

8. My ex thought the 'Nam nurses were pure angels.

He spent time in hospitals (? - not by MY definition, but his) twice, and swears that without the nurses, he would NOT have lived.

I believe him.

[benddem]

12. We were happy to have served.

O8)

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

32. BigAnnie... I am with you 100% Welcome home.

Fuck Bush.
Why are they falling for it?

Here's a pic to cheer you up...

[benddem]

7. Back to the Quartermasters

They do lots of things. They supply guard drive trucks all kinds of things that would put them in danger. Everyone who serves in a combat zone is brave and did their job. Bush is a coward:evilfrown:

[michaelbmoore]

15. Exactly

A lot of the casualties are from supply and maintenance convoys getting hit.

[scottcsmith]

11. My insights

I know Gore was a military journalist. I don't know if he was enlisted or an officer or if he was in the Quartermaster Corps. Does that mean he was safe from harm in Vietnam? No, especially if he was sent out on patrol with a unit. As a combat correspondent Gore still would have been required to carry a weapon and his first duty would be to fight in the event of an attack.

During Desert Shield/Desert Storm, I was aboard a ship. Yes, it's safer than being on the front lines. But safer is the key word -- a ship is still vulnerable to missile attack (USS Stark, 1987) or attack from terrorists (USS Cole, 2000), as well as the possibility of damage by mine. There are many ways to attack a ship.

Being in combat is stressful and at times frightening. Especially the guys on the ground. In Iraq now, you never know when a group of insurgents or guerrillas are going to launch an attack against you.

War is hell for a reason.

[HereSince1628]

18. I believe he was enlisted, interesting for a senator's son

I'll bet his DA form 20 had flags all over it. I had a kid in my shop (I was the NCOIC of a communications maintenence shop) who was the nephew of George Romney and EVERYONE in the command structure knew who he was connected to...but we still razed him and treated him like the dumbshit nug that he was when he first arrived.

I have no idea where and when Gore was in country. But there really was no place in RVN that was dependably safe. Which is beside the point really, because even if Gore had been sent for 2 years to Germany he went where the needs of the service decided. Georgie decided not to take physicals or show up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. He Enlisted and did not go in

with any commision

He did it for his father partly

he did not beleive in the war... still he did his duty, unlike Bush hiding in the Guard (yes chaps my hide, my hubby is soon to retire, if he pulled the same manouver he woudl be court martialed dammed it... as he does not have a family connection)


Many troops even today are going becuase of duty, not belief....and god bless and they better remember to duck.

[velocity]

14. Nam vet here

Amno dumps are run by the QM corp and blow up very nicely (over the hill from me Tet 69) and fuel tank farms are run by QM and blow up very nicely (10 miles from me Tet 69).

Gore was in Nam. end of story. There were NO SAFE PLACES in Nam.

[draftee]

25. Gore was in P.I.O.

Public Information - He was at Cu Chi (where all the tunnels were).
He wrote articles for Stars and Stripes and hometown papers - stuff like that. No biggie, but he was in a hot area. Cu chi was hit many times. He didn't have to do it.

Your Guardsman friend will be in country for about three days when he will realize that he messed up big time when he joined the guard. Too late now. Hope he stays safe.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. Thanks for the posts

especially from vets and those who know the facts about Bush's "service" to his country.

[Nlighten1]

29. This guy is an idiot.

Bush went AWOL during wartime. As military offenses go this is the absolute worst and is punishable by a firing squad. It never ceases to amaze me how people can use any sort of insane logic to justify their beliefs.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

31. Total moron. Anyone in a combat zone is in danger. Ask

the 507th Support Unit.