I am open to gay people and their issues

[GURUving]

but

I think that is just a secondary thing. There are many more important issues to speak to these days.

am I wrong? am I in the wrong place?

[WindRavenX]

1. I think it needs to be a top priority

In many many ways, gays and lesbians are second class citizens and that, IMHO, is a terrible social injustice that needs to be addressed NOW.

[GURUving]

2. I believe in what you probably believe

but it's just one issue among many, and I see many others as being more important these days.

[WindRavenX]

3. Ok, granted, it isn't the #1 issue

IMHO, the biggest issue is the sheer evil that is the Bush administration and the need to bring them down.
But I think that that gay rights is still one of the most important social issues we face today...it can't be ignored..

[DemoTex]

4. High, but not highest priority.

Very high, in fact. I'm straight, BTW.

[GURUving]

5. I am too, but to use sexuality

as a voting button doesn't work.

there are so many other important "subjects"

focus on what's important. Sexuality and abortion are issues that will lose the election.

[Sapphocrat]

53. Well, it wouldn't be the biggest issue...

...if you're not gay. And we homos are well aware that the most important thing is getting that... thing from hell out of the White House.

On the other hand, if you are gay, it's a huge issue -- the issue -- in that it's not merely an "issue" (and God forbid one more person call it a "wedge issue") -- it is our very lives you're talking about.

Not spanking you on this -- just trying (as always) to help everyone understand that gay rights is not an "academic" exercise, but the stuff of which screwing around which another human being's life is made.

Think Jews + Nazi Germany, and you'll have a bead on the desperation and despair many of us (the ones with their eyes open) are feeling right now.

[Snow]

6. I'd advise against splitting issues of social justice into categories -

typically, the bigots don't....

[GURUving]

9. you are right

there.

[Democrats unite]

7. If you only knew what it has been like to be Gay...

For the past 20 years (& even worse before that). To be fired just because your gay, to be kicked out of the Military just because you Gay, to be denied housing just because your Gay, to see aloved one in the Hospital & told you can't see him you have no rights just because your Gay & the list goes on & on & on...

To Hell with anyone who thinks I am secondary... I won't even get into the Family & religious persecution part of it.

[GURUving]

11. One of my best friends

watched his partner of many years die of aids. Pneunomia.

I wasn't saying you are secondary, I was asking if maybe other issues should take the forefront?

Read without reading into it things that don't exist.

[Democrats unite]

15. Sorry...

"I wasn't saying you are secondary, I was asking if maybe other issues should take the forefront?" Thats an oxymoron.

[Deja Q]

45. See my post but reaffirm anti-discrimination in the process

That way, we won't get fired just for being gay or speaking out our opinions.

Simple solution, compromise fit for all I think.

Trouble is, society wants to do everything slowly - even when doing it slowly might take too long.

While, to an extent, the gay issue still needs to be addressed, issues that affect the whole population should still get greater consideration.

Besides, if we're second rate, why do we seem to want to support the military that'd beat us to death instead of supporting issues that would demystify us and let us become equals and would ultimately let us serve in the military, freely, as first class citizens, without being beaten up?

[NoPasaran]

8. I think they're terribly important

As long as there are groups of second class citizens the rights of any of us are not secure.
Just the opinion of another straight guy.

[Kamika]

10. my opinion

It's not important for me at all..

People often asks me like.. what do you think about gay marriage..

I tell them I don't like it and they flip. BUT they gotta realize I honestly don't give a s*it, I answered because I HAD to.

(wow Eminem has nothin on me)

It's nothing that will make me switch candidate.. I mean if some guy says we'll have great foreign policy, great jobs, and gay rights I won't vote for shrub just cuz of that detail.. I honestly don't care and I'm sure same goes for alot of others..


Homosexuals think it's the biggest issue ever.. well no I'm sorry it isn't.

[Dookus]

12. yeah...

just like all those uppity asians asking for civil rights. So we put a few of 'em in camps not long ago. It's not that big of an issue.

:puke:

[GURUving]

13. How big an issue is it

we're not talking 1942, we are talking 2004.

There is a difference.

[oxymoron]

14. It's a big damn issue if you've lived it all your life. (nt)

[Democrats unite]

18. Sorry post #15 not intended to mean you.

eom

[oxymoron]

21. I didn't take it that way.

Thanks though.

[Democrats unite]

19. And what is the difference?

eom.

[Dookus]

25. I'm not asking you to fight for my rights....

I'll do it myself, thank you, with other right-minded people.

The whole premise of this thread is so ignorant that I don't even know why I'm responding at all.

You and Kamika can go on your merry ways secure in the thought that us fags don't really need to be treated like real citizens.

Thankfully, the vast majority of people here aren't ignorant asshats.

[Kamika]

30. oh brother

If you'd read my post again you'd see I wrote I didn't CARE

[Dookus]

33. I don't need to read it again....

I understood it jut fine the first time. You don't care.

And in response, I'll say I don't care about uppity Asians being rounded up in detention camnps. I mean really, aren't there BIGGER issues?

[Kamika]

34. heh

That's another issue dude.. a whole other issue.

I won't compare the rounding up of thousands of ppl based on their race to the same as two guys not able to marry each other in church.

[Dookus]

36. LOL...

a half second of thought would reveal to most thinking people that they're the same exact issue - ensuring the civil rights of all Americans.

Now shoo... off to the camp with you! shoo!

[oxymoron]

37. How is it different? Just curious. (nt)

[Kamika]

40. just read my post again i edited some stuff

topic

[Liberal Veteran]

42. Oh, sure...we may not be intered in camps.

But thousands of gays and lesbians have been forcefully discharged from military service, fired, beaten, harassed, had their children taken from them, their property vandalized, their wishes concerning their relationships ignored or overturned by courts.

[oxymoron]

43. Exactly.

And we were interred in camps in Germany btw.

[Dookus]

39. you added more to your post

so I'll reply to your new addition.

NOBODY is asking churches to perform gay marriages. We're talking about the civil institution of marriage. Maybe you should read up on the subject before spouting off.

Now shoo... back to the camp!

[Liberal Veteran]

35. Apathy is a poor excuse....

"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Snow]

26. Yes, but to some extent, and maybe a bigger extent

than you might realize, it's the same people.

[gator_in_Ontario]

16. good point

:kick:
In another place I today I read "I don't mind heterosexuals...as long as they act gay in public"

[DU9598]

17. So what?

Some members of the Supreme Court wish us to disappear and want to take away our equality at every opportunity. I hope you stand up for us when they come for us, because they may come for your group next.

[Sapphocrat]

55. Only because you're not one of us uppity queers.

Kamika, you really hurt me with that one. Damn. I mean, seriously.

Jesus. I don't even have words to express it. Just... Hurt.

[Kamika]

62. hmm sorry

If it makes you feel better I didn't mean to hurt anyone.

I honestly would LOVE it if gay ppl had the same rights as us others.. it's just not what i will call more, or as important as some other issues right now.

[Sapphocrat]

56. dupe n/t

[foreigncorrespondent]

59. Wow! Talk about cutting straight to the heart.

It's not important for me at all..

Oh that is very republican-like of you. Certainly not a liberal thought there, huh?

Let me tell you something Kamikia. I am not an American or a citizen of your country, but I take a great interest in your country, that's why I am here.

Your country doesn't concern me apart from the fact that your country happens to be the birth country of my love. Yet, since I was a little girl, it is your country that has fancinated me.

Now, I am 35, your country still facinates me, to the point, I don't want to see some rich spoiled brat destroy it. I have no reason to take an interest in your country, but I do. Ya know why? Because I am a liberal and as such I am concerned about people not getting a fair deal from the government.

Maybe you should be thinking about the fact that us queers certainly don't get a fair deal from your government. Yes including me, who is forced to live 8,000 miles apart from my lover, because people, who are just like you in their anti gay stance are running the country, and will not allow my American BORN citizen to sponsor me for immigration.

Maybe you should begin to think how it felt when the PATRIOT act was introduced which diminished some of your very rights as a citizen of that fine country. Then you should take a long hard look at the many rights queer citizens of your country are actually missing out on, then think about how it feels for them to be lower than shit in your country.

I tell them I don't like it and they flip. BUT they gotta realize I honestly don't give a s*it, I answered because I HAD to.

And tell me, if I told you to put your head in an oven with the gas turned on but no flame, would you? You didn't have to do anything let alone answer a question you aren't prepared to get into a debate about.

And tell me, what is it you don't like about gay marriage?

Remember us queers aren't the ones ruining the sanctity of marriage, you hets have had that pleasure.

Homosexuals think it's the biggest issue ever.. well no I'm sorry it isn't.

Oh really? Funny, I could have sworn that just after the Mass. ruling it was the hets on this very forum that had all their knickers in a knot saying this is the wedge issue for '04.

No us queers don't think it is the biggiest issue ever, you need to check your statements for correctness before you make them.

[Kamika]

63. You really misunderstood my post.

First off I really feel for you that you can't be sponsored by your gf, I'm serious there.

Anyway about this

"And tell me, if I told you to put your head in an oven with the gas turned on but no flame, would you? You didn't have to do anything let alone answer a question you aren't prepared to get into a debate about"


What I meant was that I don't allow gay issues to decide whom I'm going to vote for. If a guy has great politics and pro gay rights I'll vote for him, if a guy has bad politics and pro gay rights I won't vote for him.

[foreigncorrespondent]

64. I didn't misunderstand your post...

...I know full well what you said, and I was flawed when I saw it, and I am flawed by your reply.

You avoided my entire reply to you and settled for one section, a section which I didn't address.

I don't care who you vote for, and who you don't for, or what your own political beliefs are, but when you tread on the shells that I call my life, that is when I begin to care.

You stated:

It's not important for me at all..

You didn't say, that you felt it wasn't an important issue at this time, you stated it wasn't important to you at all.

You stated:

I tell them I don't like it and they flip. BUT they gotta realize I honestly don't give a s*it, I answered because I HAD to.

You didn't say, I am not bothered by the thought of gay marriage, each to their own, you said that you tell them you don't like it.

So again, I ask you, what is it you don't like about gay marriage? And please remember I don't want the republican answer I have to hear time and time again with this. I don't want to hear how the sanctity of marriage will be destroyed, because as I said sweetheart, you hets have done a fine job of destroying that all on your own.


No I didn't misunderstand you. And I really believe you don't realize just how hurtful and full of hatred your words really are.

I didn't ask for you to post in this thread, you did that on your own accord, but I certainly won't sit by and watch my very life be trashed before my very eyes without so much as a peep out of me. As I said in another thread not too long ago, I am tired of sitting on the back of the bus, because you miss so much when you do.

[Liberal Veteran]

20. My equality is secondary?

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but it strikes me as slightly prejudiced when someone says that equal rights for all citizens under the constitution that I once swore an oath to uphold and defend are "secondary".

It's one of my major gripes with the party that so many within it consider the gay vote to be a "lock" and therefore they need not really concern themselves with our rights or will not take a stand because some bigotted backlash from the fundies.

Would it be okay to say back in the 60's, "I am open to blacks and their issues, but I think that is just a secondary thing. There are many more important issues to speak to these days."?

[Alenne]

22. They did say it

"I am open to blacks and their issues, but I think that is just a secondary thing. There are many more important issues to speak to these days."?



And supporters of equal rights should push the issue just like blacks did.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. I know they did and they were wrong to say it at the time...

...just as people are wrong to sideline gays and lesbians.

The point was to get the poster to think about how that sounds in a different context.

[Democrats unite]

24. What McCarthy Era Historians Haven't Told You

from gaytoday.com

Despite the concern, even hysteria, at the time, and the many people affected, historians of the McCarthy era have given stunningly little attention to the Lavender Scare. Political historians of McCarthyism, anticommunism and the rise of the national security state emphasize the role of partisan politics and foreign policy, and minimize moral and cultural concerns. If they mention the lavender Scare at all, they portray it as a minor byproduct of the Red Scare, one so seemingly natural and inevitable as to need no explanation. Even the most recent studies of McCathyism, both defenses from the Right and critiques from the Left, all but ignore how the fears of Communists and homosexuals overlapped.
David K. Johnson, Ph.D.-Introduction to The Lavender Scare: The Cold War Persecution of Gays and Lesbians in the Federal Government-University of Chicago Press, 2004

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/15801.ctl

[Snow]

32. Thanks,,,,that's fascinating...

I wasn't aware of that at the time. 'Course, I spent my childhood in an LA suburb where there were two minority kids - jewish. Now, it's a largely hispanic neighborhood & I've seen a bit of the world as well. I do remember at the time - the 50's - we had a pediatrician that we all really liked. This was in Van Nuys, a San Fernando suburb that at that time was a midwestern migrant white suburb. At some point we stopped going to that doctor, and one day as we were passing his office, I asked my dad, why weren't we seeing him. I don't remember how he phrased it, but he said, the doctor had killed himself because he was homosexual. I don't think my dad was condemnatory, but I really don't remember. I remember thinking, 'why would he kill himself for that - I don't really understand it, but who cares?' Of course, for a pediatrician it would've been ruin - to have hidden your sexuality and then have it discovered. I knew a gay guy back in Omaha who had been with his partner 27 years - but they lived in separate houses because one of them was a schoolteacher.

[MrSlayer]

27. It should be right at the forefront.

Everyone deserves equal protection under the law. How can one of the basic fundamentals that this country was founded on be a secondary issue? We don't even have the basics down yet after all this time. I don't believe homosexuals are asking for special treatment, they are simply asking to be treated like everyone else.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. Does this seem secondary to you?

NASHVILLE -- A state appeals court says a gay father must keep his homosexuality in the closet when his son is around.

But the state Court of Appeals says it was wrong for a lower court to send Joseph Randolph Hogue to jail for simply telling the boy he was gay.

As part of a divorce hearing, Hogue was barred from "exposing the child to his gay lovers and, or his gay lifestyle."

Hogue claimed it was an illegal and overly broad restraining order.

The appeals court says it found nothing wrong with the lower court shielding the child from the gay influences.

But the court did agree with Hogue that the order didn't specifically ban the father from telling his son about his sexual orientation.

[Alenne]

29. If you were truly open to gay issues

you would think equal rights was a top priority.

[tkmorris]

31. *Flashback*

Flashback to 1964. Someone you know says to you, "I am open to black people and their issues. but I think that is just a secondary thing. There are many more important issues to speak to these days."

Sorry, I don't think so. Injustice is injustice, wherever you find it. Simply because it doesn't apply to you personally doesn't make it unimportant.

Now if you were to state that you think running with this issue as a primary focus is a losing strategy come election time, well fine. I don't necessarily agree but that might be true. Not important though? Secondary? I don't think so.

[aQuArius]

38. My dad has been living with his partner

for almost 6 years now and all I wish is that they could get married and be accepted more. My kids love and adore both of them and it breaks my heart that they can't get married.

[Deja Q]

41. I am gay and I am willing to put gay rights on the sidelines, in favor of

economic fairness issues and rebuilding America's economic infrastructure (let's do it now before it collapses due to these greedy bastards and bushco*), back to the way it was in the 1950s when just about everyone had a job that was of a liveable wage and when everybody did his part.

Right now it's every CEO's bottom line for himself, with the working class being urinated upon. True trickle down, folks... the rich get he tax cuts and the effect is trickled down to us; meaning we pick up their slack.

Our country is so divided and is hurting so badly, and whose leaders are only angering the rest of the world... we need to change NOW. And I will put aside my greatest wants and desires if it is to help out this country and its people.

Period.

Oh yeah, economic fairness and a reform of healthcare. ALL OF US put money into healthcare, via out of pocket direct expense, insurance premiums, taxes, the price of ANY products we buy, and everything else. So why the hell do some people have no insurance? They pay into the system to, but get nothing out of it. That's not right.

[Democrats unite]

44. And what good is any of that if you can't be part of it?

[Deja Q]

47. You don't know me very well, do you?

I've always been a loner. An outsider. A pariah. Someone who's never part of the success despite contributing. I've never been a part of much of anything, except as the role of being a fringle tassle at the end.

I don't see that changing. Not ever.

Should I just sit back and imitate Nelson Muntz and go "ha-ha"??

I may as well try to help people while I'm alive, even though I know they're not all going to like me or tolerate me or see me as an equal or anything else. Anything less is unevolved. And some of those people also happen to be gay and had called me "unevolved". Whatever, they were republicans anyway.

Another example: Why should I be for gay marriage when I myself will never find a "Mr. Right"? Because I want gay marriage so others who have the guts to want a life partnership have it. I may never have it myself (I may never even get a date), but at least I can fight for others who want it, few as they are... :-(

So, go ahead, let's may gay equality the top #1 issue. It'll mean diddley when the rest of the country is decimated by corporate america and bushco*.

PRIORITIES. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. Any good Democrat/liberal/Society-ist/HUMANIST knows this. Gays are few. The working and poor classes are far more.

Besides, if I do the right thing and people find out I'm gay - well, who knows? Maybe they'll treat me with some respect and equality. As a nice benefit, doing good for other people might in turn have them changing their tune as well.

[Democrats unite]

48. Whos talking Gay marriage here? I'm talking basic rights!

Just read my original post.

Although I am remined of someone who didn't want to get involved, he just wanted to play his violin...until he was dragged off to the gas chambers in Hitler's Germany. Don't think it can't happen again! I'll be damned if I'll just sit peacefully by.

[lovedems]

46. Wow, I just learned alot, thank you.

I posted a couple days ago that I didn't understand why this was an issue. I didn't think it was anybody's business what people did in the privacy of their own bedroom (unless you were a rapist or a pedophile). I don't think what you do in your bedroom effects the type of person you are, the abitly to do your job, or the ability to be a kind and gentle person. I thought it was important for all people to have not only the same protection under the law but the benefits laws allow. I just kept thinking, "what's the big deal, why is * is making an issue out of this? They are people who deserve the rights of every other american citizen" Now I can see that it is a big deal. It is like people saying "there isn't racism anymore". That kind of takes away from all of the work of the civil rights movement and MLK, because racism isn't gone yet and there is still lots of work to do. It is obvious there is still alot of work to do with other social issues as well. We need to move from tolerance to acceptance and sometimes that takes a fight.

I always learn so much on DU.

[Sapphocrat]

57. lovedems...

You just made up for all the hurt Kamika just caused me, personally. I'm serious.

Thank you for understanding that my rights aren't just some abstract concept. There's a real human being behind every rainbow flag, every pink triangle...

Thank you so much for getting it.

[Scottie72]

49. I am reminded of a song...

from several years ago by Pop Will Eat Itself.

ICH BIN EIN AUSLANDER"
("I Am A Foreigner")
by Pop WILL Eat Itself

Listen to the victim, abused by the system
The basis is racist, you know that we must face this.
"It can't happen here" -yep-
Take a look around at the cities and the towns.

See them hunting, creeping, sneaking,
Breeding fear and loathing with the lies they're speaking.
The knife, the gun, broken bottle, petrol bomb:
There is no future when the Pasan come.

And when they come to ethnically cleanse me,
Will you speak out? Will you defend me?
A laugh through a glass eye as they rape our lives,
Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right.

Ich Bin Ein Auslander.

Welcome to a state where the politics of hate
shout loud in the crowd "Watch them beat us all down"
There is a rising tide in the rivers of blood
but if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence.

If they come to ethnically cleanse me,
will you speak out? Will you defend me?
Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right.

Ich Bin Ein Auslander.

I want to ask those who think our issues are secondary will you stand up will you defend me?

Will those who don't care, finally care when they come for you?

[populistmom]

50. It's just as important as any other human/civil rights issue

It's amazing that's it's 2004 and for the most part, in this country, someone has no protection, or no grounds for legal recourse if discriminated against (or even have been harassed or had violence perpetrated against them in some places) because of who they choose to love and share their bodies with. :grr:
I think anyone who gets so uptight about people who are gay obviously must be less than secure with their own sexuality.

[Dookus]

51. heheh...

the big problem with the premise of the thread is that it presumes all political issues are on some giant To Do list and we must accomplish them in order.

There's no reason we can't work for equality for gay people WHILE also working for economic justice, environmental sanity, etc. etc.

The mere attempt to "prioritize" a basic human rights issue is inherently demeaning. It's all part and parcel of one big fight.

[Sapphocrat]

58. Thank you, pm...

It's straight folks like you who give me some hope, and make me feel not quite so scared of het society.

[Terran]

52. 10% of the populace being denied their civil rights

I think that's pretty major. And easy as pie to fix, unlike most of our problems. If only people would let it happen.

[Bertha Venation]

54. Sexual Orientation is Totally Unimportant.

What's important -- and no, it's not secondary -- is that no one's civil rights are denied because of their orientation, and that's what we queer folk experience today.

I agree there are some more important things than my right to a marriage license: poverty, homelessness, unjust war. But nothing need stop me in my fight for civil rights as I fight against these other wrongs as well.

Agreed?

[corporatewhore]

60. Oh yeah defintely civil rights are not that importan

[Mattforclark]

61. I don't care whether one is gay

I do care about discrimination against gay people. I care just as much as I care about discrimination against any other category of people (eg Black, women, people who wear purple earrings). Not more, not less.

Equal protection under the law means that the government cannot make laws that treat one category of adults differently than any other category. Period.

[Skinner]

65. I'm locking this thread.

No explanation necessary, IMO.

Skinner
DU Admin