Vegan parents guilty in infant murder

[Blue-Jay]

6-week-old died of starvation after being fed diet of soy milk, apple juice...

The parents of a baby that died of starvation after being fed a vegan diet have been found guilty of malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children.

Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31, will get an automatic life sentence for the death of their 6-week-old infant, Crown. After being fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice, he weighed only 3 1/2 pounds when he died. The Fulton County jury deliberated the case for about seven hours.

Prosecutors said it was a chilling case of murder by starvation, a painful and prolonged death. Attorneys representing Sanders and Thomas told jurors the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to their vegan lifestyle. Vegans typically live free of animal products.

"They're not vegans, they're baby killers," Fulton prosecutor Mike Carlson told the jury Tuesday during his closing arguments. The couple's attorneys said they didn't realize their baby, born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0502vegans.html

[datasuspect]

1. sweet beefy jesus

those people deserve worse.

that's fucking horrible

[flvegan]

2. Partially correct.

They're vegans poorly schooled in nutrition, at least for an infant. Not really much to do with veganism as it is stupidity.

[datasuspect]

3. it has nothing to do with veganism and everything to do with child murder

[Blue-Jay]

5. Agreed.

I only posted the article in it's entirety.

You'll notice that I offered no commentary. I just thought it was sad.

[datasuspect]

9. it's always sad when stuff like that happens

very few things upset me. children being hurt does.

[Blue-Jay]

11. Same here.

[flvegan]

7. Agreed

Their actions were stupid and they ultimately murdered their child, it appears.

[Jamastiene]

85. I agree with that assessment too.

They can be vegans and still take decent care of a kid. Balancing the child's diet and making sure it was receiving enough nutrition to grow would have worked, but they killed the poor kid. That's so sad. I still wonder what it has to do with vegans though. There is no reason they could not have upheld their vegan diet AND fed the kid enough.

[flamingyouth]

12. Exactly.

[huskerlaw]

4. Honest question...

do vegans (in general) not feed their babies breast milk?

As I'm typing that, it sounds stupid. Of course breast milk technically, not vegan...but presumably babies require some sort of milk, be it formula or breast milk...please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[flvegan]

6. A vegan should breastfeed her baby, yes.

[huskerlaw]

10. Thank you!

:hi:

[Connonym]

20. I was thinking the same thing

also because it seems like everyone I know who has home birthed has been very much into natural parenting and breast feeding is a logical extension from that. Had the baby been to a doctor at all before it died? How could you not notice that it was losing weight? This is just awful.

[LeftyMom]

21. Nah, breastmilk is vegan.

AFAIK, there isn't a vegan breastmilk substitute (soy formula has animal fats and animal derived vitamins in it) so a vegan infant, just like any other infant, should get breastmilk on demand for the first four to six months followed by the slow introduction of healthful table foods and breastfeeding should continue to be a major source of nutrition for AT LEAST the first year of life. The only differences would be that Mom is vegan (which would mean much lower rates of environmental contaminants in the breastmilk) and that the table foods would all be plant-based.

[huskerlaw]

133. Ok

Obviousy I was showing my ignorance on the subject. Thanks for the response. :)

[LeftyMom]

138. No problem.

:)

[gollygee]

34. I know vegans who breastfeed.

Most I know breastfeed for much longer than the US average.

[Left Is Write]

38. Vegans can and do breastfeed, so I was wondering myself why this baby...

was not breastfed.

[gollygee]

43. I read about another case

where vegan parents didn't even want their baby having breastmilk because it's an animal (human) product. But that's pretty wacko and very unusual. Or maybe the mother tried to breastfeed but had trouble? Even then, there are soy formulas available. But they're pretty expensive.

[Left Is Write]

48. Yeah, I'd think that was pretty unusual.

I also wondered if she tried to breastfeed, but was unsuccessful (which would probably also be due to ignorance/lack of support).

Do soy formulas contain any animal products? I'd really think the safest route to go for vegans would be breastmilk.

[gollygee]

50. Lefty Mom said that soy formulas aren't vegan

which makes me wonder what vegans do if they can't breastfeed for some reason. Yes the safest situation would be to breastfeed for sure. The vegan moms I know breastfeed for longer than the US average (by a long shot).

[SmokingJacket]

156. I would propose that a vegan MUST breastfeed. nt

[Jamastiene]

89. I would think breast milk from the mother

would be perfectly okay in the vegan community. I've certainly never heard of any vegans who are against human breast feeding. There may be some, but I've never met any.

[LeftyMom]

94. I haven't either, and I mod a vegan board with quite a few parents. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

112. A mothers breast milk is Vegan, absolutely

Vegans in general try not to consume foodstuffs that require the death or unnatural confinement of other living creatures. Many Vegans extend that concern to their apparel and personal care items as well.

Since a mothers milk is of course designed for her infant it is absolutely Vegan.

If she couldn't breast feed why on earth didn't they feed the child one of the many Soy protien infant formulas available?

This article makes no sense. This child didn't die because his parents were Vegan, he died because they starved him.

Here's a good example (dude on the left) of someone who was born and raised a Vegan.

[huskerlaw]

134. Thanks for the clarification

My understanding of the subject was obviously a bit lacking. ;)

[Debi]

8. What about soy formula? wouldn't that have worked?

poor, poor infant. His only time on earth was filled with want and pain. Just awful.

[Critters2]

142. They aren't vegan, have added animal fats, etc

but, as a vegan, if I were a mother who couldn't breastfeed for some reason, I'd use soy formula, vegan or not. Just as I feed my cats meat. And they should have known better than to use soy milk as formula. Most soymilk cartons say not to use them as baby formula.

[Debi]

165. Thanks for the correction

I'm vegan-naive. :shrug: But we do agree - do what is necessary to let the child live and be healthy. :hi:

[MissB]

13. Veganism has nothing to do with what these fucknuts did.

It doesn't matter what your dietary choices are. Babies either get breastmilk or formula until at least 1 year of age. Not milk, soymilk, rice milk, etc.

Fucknuts.

[Left Is Write]

40. I agree. They were ignorant of proper infant nutrition, and that can happen

whether parents are vegan, vegetarian, or omnivores.

[HEyHEY]

14. clearly, these people didn't know what they were doing.

I'm no nutrition expert, but it seems to me that there is a way for this child to have survived and still have eaten a vegan diet.

[JVS]

126. It is possible, but it seems that there is a level of difficulty involved in...

eating a vegan diet and rearing infants that just doesn't happen with a "normal" diet. If I were vegan and had a kid, I'd seriously consider going off the guidelines for a while until the kid is grown up a bit. Either that or study fucking hard on how to make sure that such a thing doesn't happen.

(Look at us being sane and rational on a thread rather than the flaming assholes, quite a change, huh HeyHey)

[Critters2]

143. Breastfeeding is the obvious solution. nt

[JVS]

161. I'd be interested in knowing how the mom's diet could effect the nutritional content of her milk

or even the availability of milk

[yewberry]

168. There's no problem breastfeeding

as long as the mom is eating a good diet, though supplements (especially for B12 & D) are often recommended.

The bonus is that vegan women have much lower levels of contamininants (PCB, lead, mercury) & pesticides in their breast milk.

[sniffa]

15. once again, proof that vegans are eviL

we need a constitutionaL ammendment against them.

[flvegan]

16. Call Kucinich. He'll get it started.

Oh, wait...

[sniffa]

17. pfft! whatever biceps mcgee

:eyes:

waxman is the go to guy.

[Blue-Jay]

23. You ROCK at sarcasm!

[sniffa]

25. you ROCK at pointing out the obvious!

[Blue-Jay]

27. I ROCK!

rock rock rock rock!

<insert RJD smiley>

[Jamastiene]

You both rock.

:yourock:

[sniffa]

95. you rock your socks off

:yourock:

that may or not be a hint. :yoiks:

[Jamastiene]

98. Oh, my socks are certainly off any

chance I get. I loves to wiggle my toes. I don't really like wearing socks and shoes at all. :P :hi:

[YankeyMCC]

18. "Negligent" or "Criminally Incompetent" parents guilty in infant murder

Would be a more appropriate headline.

The negligence and/or incompetence may have centered around their understanding of being vegan but it wasn't the fact of them being self-identified as vegan that killed this child it was their incompetence or stupidity.

[VenusRising]

19. I get the feeling

that if the mother had been 17 instead of 27, the baby might have ended up in a garbage bag tossed in a dumpster.

I can't imagine a mother not taking her newborn to the doctor for a check-up even if it was born at home.

Something just doesn't feel right to me. It gives me the oogies.

:shrug:



That poor baby. That is the real tragedy.
:cry:

[Blue-Jay]

22. An opinion:

I don't think that "murder" is appropriate in this case. "Murder" implies some sort of intent.

From what I've read about this sad incidence, I don't believe that there was any "intent".

I'm no lawyer, but I think that an appropriate charge is "involuntary manslaughter".

I think that the parents were trying to their best, according to their own dietary preferences, but were too ignorant to be able to care for their infant sufficiently.

Sad.

[gollygee]

24. Maybe negligent homicide?

because it was caused by negligence?

I agree that "murder" doesn't seem to hit the target though.

[Blue-Jay]

26. Something like that.

Again, I'm no lawyer, but "murder" seems a little over the top.

They were uninformed and stupid, but I don't see any intent in causing the tragic death of their baby. It's one of those stories where everything is sad.

[gollygee]

29. They had to be a bit beyond just uninformed

I don't know if even stupid would hit the mark. 3-1/2 pounds at 6 weeks? Most babies are somewhere around 7 or so pounds when they're born, and they're supposed to put on weight pretty rapidly. They had to have noticed that kind of weight loss. It would have been extraordinarily obvious, and the baby was probably crying of hunger pretty close to all the time too.

[LostinVA]

32. Agreed -- "murder" has malicious intent behind it

[THUNDER HANDS]

60. without knowing all the facts

it was be impossible to guague their intent, but I'd imagine the DA is seeking a murder rap so that when the eventual plea comes along, it will be for something like negligent homicide, and they'll get 4-7 years, if not less.

[MissMillie]

162. I was thinking the same thing

I guess we all just watch way too much Law & Order

[THUNDER HANDS]

36. are you kidding?

the kid was what, 3 pounds after 6 months?

The kid was LOSING weight as it aged, that's horrible.

These parents are murderers. I have no sympathy for them. You want to be a vegan, fine, be a vegan. Don't force your kids to be vegans too. Let them make that decision when they're older.

I hate fundamentalists of all stripes. Religious or lifestyle, doesn't matter.

[gollygee]

39. six weeks

still pretty stunning. No way they couldn't have been aware that the baby was dying, IMO, unless they were continually on drugs or something maybe.

[THUNDER HANDS]

47. i know

figure the kid, unless it was a preemie, was what, 6, 7 pounds at least.

I wonder if they took the child to a pediatrician at all?

Probably not, because any sane pediatrician would have told them what they were doing was wrong.

[LeftyMom]

46. Uh, you do realize that there are loads of healthy vegan kids out there?

These people were not following any sort of nutritional advice and were clearly negligent. That has nothing to do with feeding one's child a well-planned vegan diet.

Learn a thing or two and come back to this thread when you know what you're talking about.

[THUNDER HANDS]

49. that's not the point I was making

I was making two seperate points...

One, obviously the parents did something wrong, a lot of things wrong, actually. The blame lies with them and not in the vegan lifestyle.

The second one was a comment on the fundamentalist attitude of raising your child as a vegan when they have no choice in the matter, which I believe to be wrong.

I have nothing against vegans, just raising your child that way when they should be the one's to make that lifestyle choice themselves.

[Left Is Write]

58. No infant has a choice in the matter of their diet.

Why is the default an omnivorous diet? Couldn't it just as easily be said that raising one's child on an omnivorous diet is "wrong" because they should be able to make that lifestyle choice themselves?

All parents make the nutritional choices for their infants, no matter what their diet.

[THUNDER HANDS]

64. it's default because it's not extreme

an all-meat or all-veggie diet is extreme. Having a healthy, all-around diet including fruits, vegetables, grains, meat and dairy is not extreme. You lay everything on the table for the child, and when they get older, they decide if they want to continue that way, or change.

[gollygee]

68. Who decides what's extreme?

I know a good number of healthy vegan children. They're well cared for and have a wide variety of foods available to them. It doesn't look to me like their diet is "extreme" - the specific choices are just different.

[THUNDER HANDS]

75. the choices are less

they may have choices in the vegan diet, but those are much less, overall, than if they were omnivorous. (sorry about the spelling, if it's wrong).

And if you're dealing with less options, less items on your plate, so to speak, (pardon the pun), then you're drifting into extremist territory.

[Left Is Write]

74. I would not call the average vegan diet "extreme."

Eating nothing but carrots and lettuce? Extreme. But that's not what vegans do.

[philosophie_en_rose]

88. As long as it's a sufficient diet, it shouldn't matter what the parents choose.

But I think the point is that infant's can't survive on a vegan diet. Kids yes, even little ones can survive on a vegan diet. But not little beings that are on a liquid diet.

Infants need breastmilk or a sufficient substitute (which rice milk and juice are not). That's the point of breasts. To (among other things) make milk to feed the young.

I get not feeding an infant cow milk (which isn't really that great anyway), because of concerns about the milk. But a mom's own breast milk? not quite the same thing.

[Left Is Write]

90. An infant can survive on a vegan diet, because most vegans do not consider breastmilk

to be non-vegan.

I know exactly what the point of breasts are (I breastfed my own kids), and I think this mother should have been breastfeeding.


Edited to add: I want to make it very clear that I am NOT in any way defending these parents. I am defending veganism in general.

[LeftyMom]

100. I've never heard of a vegan with a problem with breastmilk before.

These people were :crazy: and not following anything resembling normal vegan nutritional advice.

Typical feeding practices for vegan infants are:

1. Human milk exclusively for the first 4-6 mos

2. Slow introduction of table foods at 4-6 mos, gradual increase in quantity and complexity of foods with human milk still at core of diet for first year

3. Transition to primary intake from table foods sometime after 1 year, with human milk offered for comfort and supplemental nutrition for as long as is mutually desired

The only difference from typical nutritional recommendations are the table foods offered, and the vegan diet of the lactating mother.

[Critters2]

148. Exactly. One of my first thoughts when reading this was,

"Why are they giving a 6 week old infant apple juice?" At that age, the child should have been receiving nothing but breast milk. The issue here isn't veganism. The issue is stupidity.

[One_Life_To_Give]

167. Beyond stupidity

Stupid parents show up at the emergency room with a malnourished child long before it gets to be life threatening. Standing there and watching your own infant slowly, painfully die is much, much worse.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

110. i don't know any vegans who consider breastmilk against their beliefs

nt

[LeftyMom]

59. So should omnivores raise thier kids vegan until they're old enough to decide to eat flesh?

We all have the right to raise our kids with our values, and they'll grow up and either embrace or reject them, just like we all did with whatever we were raised with.

[THUNDER HANDS]

71. they should raise their kids omnivorous

and let them choose what they want when they get mature.

Maybe I'm biased, because that's what my parents did with me. I'm both Jewish and Christian, and my family never raised me to be more of either, we celebrated both traditions and religions equally.

They gave me the option or choosing, or not choosing, when I got older.

Parents certainly have the right to raise their kids any way they want, it's just that IMO, it's wrong to raise them in a fundamentalist way...for any type of lifestyle.

[LeftyMom]

80. But why should somebody have to raise thier child to do something they consider wrong and unhealthy?

After all, our kids aren't suffering in any way. They get treats and snacks. They grow up not only as healthy as their peers but healthier.

Why should we feed them things that are bad for them, for animals and for the environment when we have an obligation to offer them the best start that we can?

[THUNDER HANDS]

107. i'm not saying you HAVE to

I'm saying that IMO, it's not what I think is best. That's not the path I'd choose, and all in all, life is really all about choices we make for ourselves and our families. I don't begrudge you for being a vegan and living that lifestyle. I might not think it's fair to your children to be conditioned from birth to be a vegan, but I'm not going to say you CAN'T raise them that way.

I'm curious though, if there were studies done that showed how many chldren raised as vegans abandoned the lifestyle once they got older. I mean, an eating lifestyle isn't as easy to break or switch from as a religious demonination, or at least, I'd assume that it isn't.

That's my only concern, that you're making a choice for your children that could potentially affect them for life, whether or not they themselves want to be vegan or not. If that's what they've grown up as, that's probably all they'll ever know, regardless of how healthy and good for the environment and stuff that lifestyle may be. It's a pretty heavy thing to condition a person to a particular lifestyle, I'm not sure it's something I would feel comfortable doing.

I'm a Democrat and a liberal, but I wouldn't force my kids to be liberals from birth.

I would, however, force them to be Mets fans. :evilgrin:

[LeftyMom]

122. I dunno. I mean, my Dad worked in a steakhouse when I was a kid, and my aunt and uncle had a

livestock auction. I can't imagine it'd be any harder for LK to choose to eat differently than he was raised to than it was for me to. In some ways it would probably be easier, because omnivorous diets are the cultural norm.

That said, he is pretty adamant about not wanting meat or dairy when other people offer them to him. He knows, in an age appropriate way, where those foods come from and he clearly has strong feelings about the matter. Having got into a battle of wills with him a few times over the years, I know that trying to make him do something he doesn't want to is a losing battle, so if he chooses to eat a vegan diet when plenty of non-vegan food is around and I'm nowhere to be seen (at his father's house for example) it's because he wants to do so.

[I Have A Dream]

103. OK, so now we know what you yourself will choose to do with your freedom...

of choice. You don't have the right to make that choice for others. Your parents raised you to be Jewish and Christian, which were their religions. You don't mention Wicca, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Why? Probably because your parents weren't those religions. You celebrated both because your parents were both, it seems.

What you've stated doesn't help your argument, in my opinion.

[THUNDER HANDS]

108. well

I'm not saying anyone can't raise their kids any way they want. You want to raise your kids to be vegans? Fine. Raise them to be Christians? Fine. Jews? Fine. Circus acrobats? Fine.

Raise them however you want, nobody can stop you. I just feel uncomfortable emparting a lifestyle upon someone who has no choice in the matter.

I'd feel the same way with someone who wanted to raise their kids as a fundamentalist christian or a zionist or anarchist or a Yankees fan.

[Left Is Write]

115. How do you raise children without "forcing" some type of lifestyle choice on them?

We all raise our children with our values, whether explicitly or not. Our children learn by example, and it's our jobs as parents to teach our children. I'd find it nigh on impossible to ready my children for adulthood without imparting any of my own lifestyle choices and values onto them.

[THUNDER HANDS]

120. well, i guess i just question

whether or not a vegan lifestyle, if started at birth, is something that can be changed once someone reaches the age of maturity and escapes from the control of the people who imparted that lifestyle upon them.

If they can't, then their parents have essentiall branded their kid a vegan. Which, IMO, is different than raising your kids to be Catholics or Mets fans or Republicans.

[Left Is Write]

124. Your feelings about veganism are, I think, revealed by your use of the phrase

"escapes from the control of the people who imparted that lifestyle upon them."

Why wouldn't the diet be changeable when the child is grown?

[THUNDER HANDS]

140. i suppose it could be

but I'd hazard to guess that if you've never touched meat in your life, the taste of it would freak you out if you suddenly tried it at the age of 17 or 18 or whatever.

I mean, I remember when I was dieting and I drank nothing but water for like 6 months, the first time I had a soda after that it was like drinkning a wet bag of sugar. I can only imagine what tasting meat for the first time in your life would be like if all you're used to is veggies and soy products.

[Critters2]

145. How is it different from raising kids to keep kosher or halal

or eat fish on Friday, or just never have asparagus 'cuz dad doesn't like it? All families have dietary rules, for whatever reason. Any child will be raised with the family's diet preferences. Why does this one bother you?

[THUNDER HANDS]

158. I wouldn't say it bothers me

or rather, that that a vegan diet in general bothers me. If that's your choice, that's fine. One has chosen that for their own reasons.

But I think, objectively, it would be hard to say that it's not an extreme diet. Much more extreme, than say, keeping kosher or something.

I just don't think it's fair to raise your children under any extreme lifestyle. Personal preferences aside, the parents have the right to raise their kids any way they want and I wouldn't tell any parent they shouldn't. I would just be very uncomfortable doing that.

[skygazer]

164. I never ate an artichoke until I was 40

I'm 46 now and they are my favorite food. I never ate any soy products until I was in my 30's. I didn't recoil from them - in fact, I enjoy a lot of soy products.

We all make decisions about what to feed our kids. Whether its an omnivorous or vegan diet, you still restrict it. Feeding a kid omnivorously, you don't provide them with everything out there. My kids never got things like pork rinds or fast food. Not one of them ate at McDonald's until they were old enough to go there themselves. I believe all of them occasionally eat fast food now but they had no difficulty adapting to it. Would you equate my restrictions to being fanatical or coercing them into a particular lifestyle?

I think you're largely ignorant of what a vegan diet means. I'm not and have never been a vegan but I'm aware that there's a great diversity of foods available and that vegans are not simply eating the same three things at every meal. The way you speak of it, however, it's a highly restrictive lifestyle somehow forced upon a child. You could argue that for any dietary choices, especially when you look at cultural differences in diet. As long as it provides proper nutrition, what's wrong with it?

[THUNDER HANDS]

166. there's nothing right or wrong about the diet itself

I'm not knocking veganism. I think it's kinda cool, actually, and if I could do it (which I couldn't - don't like vegetables or soy products), I might.

But the difference between not exposing your kids to fast food or candy is different than raising them to be a vegan. I would venture to say, not being a vegan myself, that a child who is raised a vegan from birth is conditioned to believe that meat is bad and animal products are both unhealthy and cruel. That may, in fact, be true, but it's not a conclusion that the child reached itself, it was something conditioned by birth by their parents. So when the child grows up, I find it hard to believe they'd suddenly have this conversion to wanting to try meat and animal products. They might be curious about what it tastes like, but the moral conditioning that went into making them a vegan would tell them it's wrong to even WANT to try.

And that's what I mean when I say that I'm against conditioning a lifestyle upon a child. I think it's best to let the child grow up and make those choices for themselves.

[Critters2]

144. Aren't you teaching your children ethics of some sort?

IF so, how do you decide what your ethical guidelines will be? Why impose them on your child?

[THUNDER HANDS]

159. that's a good question

I think it'll be a fine line my wife and I will have to walk. I don't want to indoctrinate my kids into any set lifestyle. I don't want them to think that they have to be something or act a certain way because that's what their parents did. But, in all honesty, all I want my kids to do is grow up, have a good sense of right and wrong, have fairness and compassion towards other people, common sense and an ability to work hard and be smart and always enjoy learning.

The specifics they can figure out for themselves, which I'm sure they will anyway.

[I Have A Dream]

99. Yes, I wish that I had been given the right to make that decision myself.

:thumbsup:

[THUNDER HANDS]

109. but you were

you were given the right to become a vegan through the process of being exposed to meat and vegetabless.
Could someone raised a vegan, whose never eaten meat a day in their life, whose told meat = murder and such, really say they had a choice in making that decision for themselves? Would they even be able to choose to eat meat at that point in their lives?

[Left Is Write]

51. Let's be fair about veganism - my sister and BIL are "forcing"

their daughter to be a vegetarian (ovo-lacto, so not vegans). Don't most omnivorous parents "force" their diet on their children? This isn't an issue of veganism - it's an issue of nutritional ignorance. Lots of vegan parents have perfectly healthy children on vegan diets.

[THUNDER HANDS]

54. omnivorous parents aren't forcing anything

if they give their kids both vegetables and meat, they're not forcing anything, they're feeding them.

If they were to give them JUST meat, that would be forcing them.

If they were to give them JUST vegetables, and vegetabe byproducts, that would be forcing them.

[Left Is Write]

62. I disagree. Infants don't have any choice in the matter of their diet.

No matter what parents feed them, they are "forcing" their own decisions on the children. That is, of course, what parents do.

[THUNDER HANDS]

79. of course, in that sense, that's true

since children have no say in the matter, in essence they're being "forced" - but I wasn't making that particular point. In the sense of forcing, I would mean to say that if the child were kept with it's grandmother, or a babysitter, for a day and they were instructed by the parents to not feed the child anything out of the vegan diet, that is forcing a lifestyle onto a child, which is much different than a parent offering up green beans at dinner and making the child eat it because "mom said so."

[flvegan]

56. Well said.

[gollygee]

57. If vegan parents force their kids to be vegans, then I guess I'm forcing mine to eat meat?

Parents prepare the meals and kids eat what's available. It's like saying that I'm forcing my daughter to not eat corned beef because I don't like corned beef so I don't cook it.

I don't see how a vegan parent could feed his/her kids animal products. It's bigger than just a dietary choice.

[Jamastiene]

105. "the kid was what, 3 pounds after 6 months?"

The kid was LOSING weight as it aged, that's horrible."

If they couldn't tell the kid was losing weight as it aged, it wouldn't have mattered if they were vegans, vegetarians, or omnivores. They didn't feed the kid enough and they didn't feed it a balanced diet. It wasn't their vegan beliefs that killed the kid. It was their own ineptitude as parents and ignorance about nutrition. It is horrible, but I wouldn't blame it on vegan diets.

[THUNDER HANDS]

106. I'm not blaming it on the diet

I said that earlier. The parents were inept, as far as we can gleam from the snippet of this story. There's probably more than meets the eye to this story.

[Jamastiene]

111. True.

There had to be something wrong in that situation for the kid to be losing weight and they didn't notice it.

[Reciprocity]

37. How ignorant do you have to be to watch your baby starve to death?

To not see that your actions were causing your baby to weight less now than when it was born. We are talking about 3 1/2 pound infant. I don't buy that for one minute. Fanatics of all stripes only see what they want to see.

[musette_sf]

28. i had a friend who was involved in local La Leche

at the time she had her first child. one of the members and her spouse were nut job vegans that sound similar to the ones described in the OP and news story. all the kids were malnourished. woman just did not get the connection between consumption of fat and the requirement of same for building of the myelin sheath, not to mention the rest of the nervous system. the toddler in that family was permitted to eat 7 or 8 oranges at a clip but was not permitted to have milk. result: malnourished protein deficient kid with (natural) sugar buzz.

the group had an informal baby sitting collective, and NO ONE would (a) allow the vegan mother to baby-sit their children or (b) baby-sit any of the children of the vegan mother.

[LeftyMom]

33. There are plenty of plant-based fats to provide for adequate child nutrition.

If those kids were malnourished, it was the result of a poorly planned diet, which is a problem for both vegans and omnis.

Most vegan kids get all the fats they need from nuts, plant oils, soyfoods and other healthy sources.

[gollygee]

35. At 6 weeks the baby should have been having

breastmilk or a soy formula. But yeah there was no excuse for this. Soy formula is expensive, so there would be my guess #1. There could have been drugs involved in the family too. There was a local case of an infant starving not long ago - not vegan related - but the parents were meth addicts and just basically didn't bother to feed her.

[LeftyMom]

41. I posted that already, you know.

I was addressing the comment above about the situation with the kids old enough to be babysat who were apparently malnourished.

Soy formula isn't vegan. Not to mention that formula's a pretty shitty option anyhow. The kid should have had human milk on demand.

[gollygee]

45. Oh sorry

I missed that.

I didn't know soy formulas weren't vegan. What happens if a vegan mother is unable to breastfeed for some reason?

[LeftyMom]

53. Well, I guess the first choice would be donor milk, after that you'd have to look at formula.

It's one of those you do what you have to do things, I guess. I've never really heard of it being an issue though, vegan moms tend to be pretty healthy and motivated to breastfeed.

Certainly wasn't an issue for me, I always had way more milk than even my hungry, fast-growing kid had any use for.

[gollygee]

61. As I said above

the vegan moms I know have breastfed for much longer than the US average. Of course now that I think about it I met most of them through La Leche League.

[AngryAmish]

128. How long?

[gollygee]

155. 2 to 3 years

I nursed mine a little over 2 years. I'm not vegan though. But the vegan moms I've known don't seem to see milk of any kind as a major part of their kids' diet after they finish breastfeeding. They breastfeed until the child stops by himself/herself, and then they meet the children's nutritional needs through other foods. They don't generally seem to just replace breastfeeding with soy milk or rice milk the way non-vegan moms often just replace formula or breastfeeding with cow's milk and have other foods in addition to that.

[Critters2]

150. I have a veggie parishioner who's still nursing her 3 yo nt

[Critters2]

146. Formula is available through WIC. Not vegan, but easily available. nt

[Critters2]

149. Soy formula is available through WIC to those who can't breastfeed. nt

[musette_sf]

52. i knew there were ways to have a healthy vegan diet for kids

thansk for filling me in. it's the "vegans" who approach it like fundamentalist Xianity that drive me nuts.

[LostinVA]

30. This has happened before, but I think it's less "vegan parents"

Than "wacko, incompetent parents."

Lots of non-vegan parents do far worse to their little babies than this, with malicious intent. I'm not excusing the parents at all, just saying that they didn't do this because they're vegan.

[Gormy Cuss]

104. Incompetent for sure.

I've know people who developed medical issues while following a "healthy" diet, called macrobiotic, or vegetarian, or vegan, or one of the myriad of weight loss diets based on restrictive food choices. In every case it was because they weren't paying attention to the necessity of balancing out the food choices to achieve proper nutrition.

Ugh. Poor baby.

[Der Blaue Engel]

31. Seems to me that to have warranted "malice murder"

(a term I've never heard before), there may have been more to this case than simple ignorance. Either that or the jury brought their own biases to the courtroom. But their claim not to have realized there was any problem when the child had clearly done nothing buth lose weight since birth leads me to believe the jury saw other evidence of malice. I'm thinking maybe they thought up the vegan excuse to cover more egregious indifference to the life of their child.

[DeepBlueC]

42. no pre-natal/post-natal care at all...

Two really stupid people who probably thought they adhering to some ill-informed idea of a "natural" way. I have heard of other young parents who persistently refused to recognize that their children were starving on the disciplined diet they set for themselves. Kids eventually taken away from them and re-homed. Parents never acknowledged that they had been wrong, mistaken , misguided, In fact they thought that pictures of the newly healthy, rosy-cheeked children looked "kind of fat".

[LaurenG]

44. That makes no sense to me

My son was highly allergic to cows milk and was given soy milk instead. He didn't die. There has to me more to this then they're saying here. Infants can't digest much more than liquid nutrition at that age. I don't get it.

[AlCzervik]

55. that infant weighted 3 1/2 pounds, my guess is that they weren't feeding him enough

and not a problem with the actual formula.

[gollygee]

63. Babies need *a lot* of fat

more than soy milk and apple juice would be able to give. Maybe soy cream or something like that would come closer.

[AlCzervik]

67. Soy formula must have some fat in it--no? i had a a chubby infant mostly due

to breast milk but after a year and half we switched to forumla.

[gollygee]

69. Yes but apprently it isn't vegan

it must have some animal product or another in it.

[Left Is Write]

65. They weren't feeding him formula - just soy milk, which is quite different.

Soy milk and apple juice wouldn't contain nearly the fat and nutrient levels an infant needs.

[AlCzervik]

70. my mistake, didn't they have a pediatrician? How the hell can something like this

happen?

[LeftyMom]

73. That's what I can't figure out.

Ever carton of soy (or hemp or rice or almond...) milk I've ever seen has "Not for use as an infant formula" on it, just to make sure nobody gets it in their head that they can feed their baby SilkNog or something.

[AlCzervik]

78. plus you know your own kid, that baby was so small and must have for a time cried

and cried, if that was you or me we would have been off to the pediatrician.

[LeftyMom]

81. For sure!

And the weight loss? I can't figure out how anybody could have ignored that! It's not unusual for babies to lose a bit of their birth weight, but they're supposed to put it right back on and not keep wasting away like that.

[AlCzervik]

83. exactly and yes you and i were first time parents but it's something you're told

and have most likely read about. It's not like they didn't have information readily available to them. Fuckers.

[LeftyMom]

87. and it's common sense!

At three pounds that kid would have been way too small for an infant car seat, newborn sized clothes, etc. Even if they were completely illiterate and backward, that should have clued them in that something was wrong.

[Left Is Write]

91. I can't even imagine what a 6-week-old, 3-pound infant would look like.

There's no way they couldn't have known something was wrong. Three pounds! The mind boggles.

[LeftyMom]

93. LK was 16 lbs at 6 weeks.

I can't imagine what a child that tiny would look like. Like a preemie I guess, no subcutaneous fat, huge head.

[AlCzervik]

97. our guinea pig Bob weighs 4 pounds, how wrong is that?

and Bob looks pretty chunky for a piggie but thats because he's only about 10 inches long, picture that stretched out over say 18-21 inches?

[LeftyMom]

101. That poor kid.

:(

[Critters2]

151. Yikes!! That puts it in perspective! nt

[Left Is Write]

66. Do you mean to say you fed your baby soy formula?

That's different from feeding him just soy milk, as the parents in the article did.

[LaurenG]

84. Yes soy formula

That story is the saddest thing. :(

[stuntcat]

131. (I was thinking that too..)

that soy formula was probably alright, maybe even Good for babies, especially if it had breast milk also.
Yah, it seems like there were other reasons too, besides just starvation.. like maybe it should have seen a doctor at some point in it's life? :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. doesnt seem malicious merely stupid, right?

[AlCzervik]

76. seems both imo. a baby that small might have been in extreme pain

and it was beyond fucking idiotic.

[philosophie_en_rose]

92. reckless at best.

This was not mere stupidity. I think they acted without regard to the kid. Recklessness is the same as intent. You know the risks and don't care.

Frankly, I also think it's malicious to see a newborn waste away and not feed them whatever it takes - especially breast milk.

[Jamastiene]

77. Well damn, Mommy, let the kid

suck your breasts. I respect people who want to live a life free of animal cruelty, but a kid that young could have been breast fed. Certainly, that's not cruel to animals. Or am I missing some huge conspiracy involving cruelty to animals because a kid breast feeds its mother's own milk? Gimme a break. :sarcasm:

That certainly doesn't sound like they killed the kid because they were vegans. It sounds like they killed the kid because they didn't balance its meals and feed it enough. Why is this being touted as a vegan diet killing the kid?

[Critters2]

152. Meals? The only meals a six week old needs is mommy's breast.

And you're right, nothing to do with being vegan.

[bigwillq]

82. Murder is Murder

Doesn't really matter that they were vegan or poorly educated about the vegan culture.

They're still murderers.

[terrya]

86. Premediated murder

I hope those poor excuses for parents rot in prison. Disgusting excuses for human beings.

[Blue-Jay]

96. I dunno about that, Terry.

Seems to me that they were incredibly stupid, but not necessarily malicious.

[Danger Mouse]

102. They didn't realize the baby was in trouble until moments before it died???

Are you KIDDING me?
Ugh. This is beyond stupidity, this is just evil. The poor, poor baby :( How could they NOT have known that that is an AWFUL choice of diet for a child?
Sigh...

[The_Wizard]

113. Apple Juice is a diuretic

You should always restrict the amount of apple juice in infants and babies under 2. My niece had a son who always had diarrhea and sick and to keep him hydrated the gave him apple juice for his ever growing thirst. When my wife and I found out we quickly stopped them. A week later he was right as rain.

[Connonym]

163. and it can have a laxative effect

not to get too much into body function stuff but we were instructed to put 1 oz of apple juice in one bottle a day when my daughter was irregular.

Do these parents have low intellectual functioning?

[JVS]

114. They're not murderers. It's an accident. However for a movement that seems....

to be filled with people who get their rocks off on telling people how unhealthy eating meat is, you'd imagine that there would be more people talking about how to make sure infants are eating a healthy diet.

[Blue-Jay]

116. Agreed.

They're not murderers, they're dumbfucks.

[Left Is Write]

117. An accident? Maybe. I'm having a hard time believing they didn't know their son was in trouble.

He was three pounds at the time of his death. That would be pretty damn difficult not to notice.

[AlCzervik]

118. they are guilty of murder, a long slow murder. 3 1/2 pounds, less than a bag of sugar

manslaughter, murder, whichever.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

119. good point.

:thumbsup:

[gollygee]

121. It's more than just an accident. There is at least some level of negligence.

3-1/2 pounds? No way would any parent not notice that weight loss. Not to mention a baby crying due to that level of hunger.

[Rabrrrrrr]

123. No, they let the baby die. They are murderers. Not intentional, probably,

but murderers just the same.

Negligent, evil fucks. That's what they are.

Oh, wait - I amend that - Negligent, FUCKINGLY AMAZINGLY STUPID, evil fucks.

[Reciprocity]

130. You don't accidentally day after long torturous day starve a newborn. You do it deliberately.

[Critters2]

147. There's lot of info available as to how to raise healthy veg and vegan

kids. They obviously weren't looking for it. And, as has been mentioned here numerous times, the first step is breastfeeding.

[AlCzervik]

125. more from an extended article and why they claim they didn't go to the hospital--

Outside the courtroom, Lewis said he believes the parents unintentionally starved their child by giving him apple juice, which worked as a diuretic and blocked the absorption of nutrients from the soy milk, soy formula and breast milk. They never took Crown to a doctor because they feared hospitals were infested with germs, he said.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0503metvegan.html

[Left Is Write]

127. I think it's interesting that after the fact she said the baby also had soy formula and breastmilk.

She had first said that the baby had apple juice and soy milk.

[AlCzervik]

129. yeah, convenient memory there. No hospital because of germs--starvation ok, germs, terrible.

how the hell can anyone square that circle?

[Dastard Stepchild]

132. Uninformed parents with poor decision-making abilities killed their child....

Being vegan had little to do with it.

[nini]

135. fuck 'em

If they thought that was the best diet at first then ok. BUT hello???? the kid isn't gaining weight and thriving and they don't notice the diet isn't working until death is upon them????? Not one ounce of sympathy from me. May they go directly to hell.

[Blue-Jay]

136. Sorry. There will be no mincing of words on this thread.

[ulysses]

137. "vegan" isn't in the realm of "easy".

At least as far as this omnivore can tell. If soy formula isn't vegan, then the store-shelf options are out for vegan parents who don't (for whatever reason) breastfeed. And that's as far as the diet choice goes in this case, seems to me. Mind-numbingly stupid folks - how the hell do you not become concerned over a six-week-old at 3.5 pounds? - but not murderers.

[Reciprocity]

139. According to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

<Snip>
The infant was born in the bathtub of a Buckhead apartment but never taken to a doctor while alive. He was dead when his parents took him to Piedmont Hospital, across the street from their apartment, April 25, 2004. At six weeks old he weighed just 3 1/2 pounds and was so emaciated, doctors could count his bones through his skin.

<snip>
At trial, government witness and vegan expert Amy Lanou told jurors the child's health may have been compromised by his diet, but he should still have been alive if fed enough food.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0503metvegan.html

So you can count your babies bones but say to yourself......
"We didn't starve our son for weeks and weeks."
BULLSHIT!!

[BreweryYardRat]

141. Gross incompetence and stupidity to the level of insanity.

These people are as bad as the religious "God's will, God heals" fanatics who let children die from treatable conditions.

Might I note, as if there was ever any doubt, that these people no more represent vegans as a whole than said fanatics represent Christians/Jews/Muslims as a whole?

[raptor_rider]

160. I totally agree with you!

We try to do deal with everything by using herbs and homeopathic ways. My mother in law is a ND and Nutritionist. All of my kids are healthy. When my daughter got really ill back in December, nothing we were doing was working. We still took her in to Urgent Care. Which I am glad that we did. We thought that she was breathing fast due to the virus she had (for only 1 day) and it might have been she was getting asthmatic to where the inhaler was not working and needed to be put on the nebulizer. This was not the case, she was in full DKA and was diagnosed type 1 diabetic. We did not know the signs of diabetes as to where no one in our family is diabetic. There is a line that needs to be crossed where you know you need a MD's intervention, and put the natural crap aside. We are believers that the herbs and such do work and you do not need to go to the doctors for every single little illness, however when someone is really ill and things that you are doing, are not working, it is time to put your pride and ego aside and get your child some HELP!!!

[Kali]

153. Just going by the obvious ignorance of these "parents"

that baby was probably underweight to begin with...if they didn't have a clue about feeding it, they probably weren't feeding themselves right either..."veganism" may have exacerbated the problem but it sure wasn't the cause.

[bleedingheart]

154. The parents are guilty of starvation and clearly very poor Vegans

I am not a Vegan, however I had a friend that wanted to become a Vegan.

She was a horrible Vegan....and even me...the Omnivore knew she was not doing it right.

She compromised her health and at one point started to get oddball bruises and other problems..

At my insistence she goes to the doctor who told her what I had been telling her, that if she wanted to be a vegan she would have to be very very careful about what she ate and make sure she got her proteins....and he gave her vitamin supplements and told her that if she continued do eat improperly it could seriously damage her health..

I had a coworker whose sister was feeding her son a vegan diet...he was seriously underweight.

The pediatrician got the authorities involved and with the help of social services the woman got to talk to a dietician who helped her get a better diet for the kid...

I am not dissing vegans there are plenty of healthy vegans...but there are people out there who haven't a clue about nutrition and if you choose to follow a diet like that...you MUST learn...

In this case, I wonder how really healthy the parents were both mentally and physically? Did they know how to eat right???

[SmokingJacket]

157. What a couple of idiots.

:grr:

[deadparrot]

169. I have a hard time believing anyone could be that stupid.

Especially when it comes to your child.

But hey. This country did elect George Bush twice, so who the hell knows? Either way, how awful. :cry: