Since when is it okay

[reyd reid reed]

for a school to give up on a kid?

I just got off the phone with a counselor at #3 son's school...and she's saying she wants to refer him to an "alternative" school. One that already gets low scores on the standardized tests and is applying for an exemption, from what I just read about it. The kid is unmotivated -- he CAN do the work, he just doesn't. And then, when he does, he doesn't turn it in. His grades are horrible and his test scores aren't in the 90th percentile so they want to ship him to another school where the expectations aren't as high. He's not a disciplinary problem...just lazy.

I forgot to mention...I'm getting the feeling that they want him out of there because he's going to affect THEIR scores.

And I'm pissed. God, I'm pissed.

:nuke::mad::nuke:

[Lex]

1. How old is the child?

nt

[reyd reid reed]

2. Just turned 13.

Seventh grade. And I've not gotten a single call from the school since the beginning of the school year. Yesterday he brings home a certificate saying that he's brought his math scores up to grade-level.

[Whoa_Nelly]

3. According to the NCLB act (one I hate, but it IS in place)

the onus is on the school to first provide in school and out fo school tutoring and assist before taking the "alternative" approach. The main caveat to that is family income level and reciving the extra support. If your family exceeds the income level set, then it's up to the family to provide extra support, and the school can then move to consider other options such as alternative placement.


Your state and NCLB
http://www.cde.state.co.us/fedprograms/nclb/index.asp

and

http://www.aft.org/topics/nclb/CO.htm

[reyd reid reed]

5. Thanks, Nellie...

I'm furious. They've offered him help in math -- in-school in the form of a 'remedial' type class -- and it's worked. Now they're telling me (before she had to hang up because someone knocked on her door) that 'nothing's working with him, he's not a disciplinary problem, but nothing's working'...but they've never offered him outside help with anything. They asked me to take him to the Youth Assessment Center and they interviewed him and scratched their heads and said, "Why is he here again? Just the grades?" and said that they don't see any problems. Suggested tutoring for the grades issue. Haven't heard anything since, although I've asked about it. "I'll have someone call you."

Nothing.

And now they want to give up on him. He's THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS OLD. If the school 'gives up' on him at this point, what's that gonna do to HIM????

God, I'm so furious I can't see straight.

[Whoa_Nelly]

16. Call two people

Call the principal of the school.
Call the district superintendent.
Insist on a meeting with the principal and superintendent present.
They work for you and are obligated to perform on behalf of your son.
Set an agenda for the meeting.
You also have the right to record/tape the meeting, as well as having an attorney present if you feel you need one.
You do have to give them a heads up re: taping, att'y present.


I agree with you that the placement they are suggesting is wrong on so many levels: his age, not a disciplinary problem, and that he will receive less assistance should he be placed there, as well as having a higher probability of dropping out. All of those reasons place the responsibility on them of working WITH you and him to keep him in the general education setting for greatest success possible.

[Hangingon]

24. Sounds like this will make things really formal...

Going official with tape recorders and lawyers should set both side firmly. Perhaps it would be good to cool down and have a meeting F2F with the teacher and thing escalate to the principal.

[Whoa_Nelly]

32. Have only offered the advice as a former teacher

Things can move slowly and actually be pushed in the direction the school wants to go unless the parent speaks up and is firm from the start.

Anyway, I just offered that advice because it sometimes does take making those contacts immediately to make the people in the system sit up and take notice.

[Hangingon]

37. Yeah they will probably take notice alright

I've taught too.

[TrogL]

4. Welcome to 'no child left behind'

[reyd reid reed]

6. Fucking

CSAP.

:nuke:

[Danger Mouse]

27. I could wipe my ass with that pathetic excuse for educational reform.

I just love how the people who write these bullshit policies, haven't the slightest clue about what kids need, or what problems children truly face in school.
'I know what'll work! MORE standardized tests! TESTS! TESTS! Test em til they choke! Then test their corpse! Spend that taxpayer money to TEST TEST TEST!! If a school's test scores aren't high, SLASH THEIR FUNDING! The TEST is almighty! The TEST is good! The TEST is God!!'
Ugh.

[regnaD kciN]

65. And in our "liberal" state of Washington...

...we're stuck with the WASL (Washington Assessment of Standardized Learning), which has been such a disaster the legislature was on the verge of scrapping it, but it was rescued by our (Democratic, believe it or not) state superintendent, who is a hard-line supporter of the test and insists that people who don't like it are overprotective and trying to "shield" their children from "the real world" instead of letting them grow up and challenge themselves. Oh, did I mention that said superintendent's husband is an owner of the company that creates the test? :grr:

[Deja Q]

7. The 1970s?

:shrug:

[reyd reid reed]

9. Heh...I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...

and I'm really not...but I'm pissed off. It seems to be getting worse.

[hedgehog]

8. Run, do not walk to your family doctor and get a referral to a psychiatrist

Your son needs a complete evaluation to make certain he is not suffering from depression, an anxiety disorder, or some subtle variation of Asperger's or autism. There is a reason he is not doing his work and that he is so unorganized he doesn't turn what he does do in to the teacher. Making him fight this alone is like telling a near sighted kid that if they just tried harder, they could see the board!

[reyd reid reed]

11. He's a dreamer...

and he's creative and artistic. He's not the norm for a kid his age and they don't know what to do with him so they're throwing in the towel. When we took him for an assesment a few months ago, they ruled out depression and anxiety.

But he's not alone. Although I worry that he'll start to feel like he is if the school gives up.

[Tyler Durden]

19. Sounds EXACTLY like my oldest was and is: The Asperger's Poster Child.

An absolute ARTIST in board type roll playing games where you have to actually DESIGN your worlds. A's on the tests, ZERO's on the homework.

[bleedingheart]

23. Does your child have Aspergers?

my son has it and he actually does quite well in school...except where language is concerned...he is a concrete thinker so math, science and those types of topics are just fine. He can even memorize large pieces of music...

Problem is that he can't understand people, read their facial expressions and has problems communicating properly. He had the worst time learning to read and we discovered he read whole words by memorization and could not master phonetic reading...He has a horrid time "interpreting stories"...because that is something an Aspie can't do..but he can recite the story from memory perfectly...

His pervasive topic of choice as of right now is Bees and Wasps...he loves social structures and memorizes anything about these insects...he also has an affinity for penguins due to their social structures...

[Tyler Durden]

38. Same sort of deal...but mine CANNOT force himself to do what he feels is meaningless...

Like HOMEWORK when he was in High School. Same otherwise, but the homework thing got worse with time.

[datasuspect]

22. the last thing a kid needs is to be pathologized and medicated for being a child or teen

the reason why psychs and schools are so quick to diagnose children is because its profitable.

and the drug companies just love the money they make off their often dangerous medications.

[hedgehog]

34. I was responding to the OP's observations and obvious frustrations.

When a child is described as being capable of the work but incapable of meeting school demands, or when a previously happy and obedient child turns surly and wild, to me those are warning signs and need to be checked by a profesional. Depression and anxiety do not express in children the way they do in adults.

For what it's worth, I have several children who fall somewhere on the anxiety /depression axis with just a hint of Asperger's thrown in. They aren't Asperger's, mind you, but maybe to Asperger's as Asperger's is to autism. I also have another child who I had the doctor check out only to be told that that kid was perfectly fine! (So much for the theory that doctors are only out to make money!)

A smart kid can struggle along for quite a while before hitting a wall. Cajoling or disciplining a child with an illness or an atypical brain is just plain cruelty. I wouldn't accept a teacher's diagnosis and I especially wouldn't drug a kid based only on a teacher's recommendation, but I would listen if a teacher told me that something was wrong.

[regnaD kciN]

66. Good advice...!

Making him fight this alone is like telling a near sighted kid that if they just tried harder, they could see the board!

Or, more to the point, like telling a near-sighted kid that it's because he's lazy and worthless that he doesn't try hard enough to see the board.

God, I wish my parents had read what you wrote when I was 13 or so. :-(

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Go in and meet with the counselor and his teacher.

This is something there should be meetings over, not phone conversations.

Take a look at their documentation as to why he/she wants to refer him. Maybe the alternative school's a better fit.

[reyd reid reed]

12. It's a school that I've heard about...

and the reason I've heard about it is because it's where they stick the kids who have been expelled from other schools.

No art programs. No music programs.

And damn straight there are going to be meetings. A phone call ain't gonna cut it.

[KurtNYC]

13. Hang in there

I would be infuriated also. Poor grades are no reason to be sent off to a school full of disciplanary problems. I have to think their attitude may be part of what is sapping his enthusiasm for school -- teachers and admins who "give up" because they think it will be easier to just shuffle him off to what sounds like a day care center for delinquents.

You know the situation and players better than I do but it sounds like you may want to try to get this school transfer idea out of their heads ASAP.

[reyd reid reed]

46. Yup.

They wanted to settle it over the phone this afternoon. No way. I asked for a conference. A transfer isn't the answer and it ain't gonna happen.

No way.

[cobalt1999]

14. since, oh...forever.

Back in the sixties, kids were routinely moved to "technical schools" when they couldn't keep up (happened to a friend of mine).

Bottom line, no matter what what the school does, sooner or later you're going to have to make him do his work or he's not going to make it. The real world expects performance.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Heh.

Or got pregnant.

[TOhioLiberal]

17. Hey, RRR...

...first have a hug: :hug: Now a question for you...Has he been tested for ADD? He sounds like my younger son: Bright, creative, easily distracted I'm thinking. He was never hyper, just inattentive. After my son was diagnosed and treated with Ritalin (and yes I do know that it is overprescribed, but sometimes it's needed) his grades skyrocketed.

[Danger Mouse]

30. I'm the first person to vouch for the importance of medication for children that need it.

And trust me, there are children out there that NEED it to function. And I'm not talking just ritalin.
However, ADD is WAY WAY overdiagnosed (that and Bi-Polar Disorder) so be careful about this.

[Whoa_Nelly]

18. If you do hold a meeting

with teachers, counselor, principal, any others who have been involved up to this point, and possibly the district superintendent, the sites below offer you info directly related to your state re: NCLB.
Best to go in with all the knowledge you can get.


http://www.middleweb.com/mw/resources/HMguidingQs.html

http://www.i2i.org/articles/9-2003.pdf


And contact info for you to use.

State Education Agency (State Department of Education)

Provide information, resources, and technical assistance on educational matters to the schools and the residents.

Colorado Department of Education
Dr. William J. Moloney, Commissioner
Contact: Cindy Howerter, Executive Assistant and PIO
201 East Colfax Avenue
Denver, CO 80203-1704

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
Website: http://www.cde.state.co.us/

[reyd reid reed]

39. When she finally called back this afternoon,

she wanted to settle things over the phone. I requested a conference so we're doing it that way.

She actually said, "This school isn't working for him, and he's not working for us."

[Danger Mouse]

53. 'He's not working for us?'

Ugh. What a bunch of fools.
Give em hell, RRR!

[reyd reid reed]

55. She actually used those words.

Can you believe it?

:wow:

:nuke:

[Danger Mouse]

56. How did you respond to that??

I would've said, 'He doesn't work for you, bitch...YOU work for US.'

[reyd reid reed]

57. I'm actually rather proud of myself...

I didn't reach through the phone and grab her by the throat.

I'm saving that for Tuesday.

:P

[Danger Mouse]

58. What you going to do on Tuesday?

I'm so happy you're fighting back hard. So many parents would just be passive about this, rather than giving the school holy hell (as you are)...good on you!

[reyd reid reed]

59. I'm going to firmly advise them that

they will MAKE it work for him. That's what my tax dollars go to...and they're going to live up to their end of the bargain. They aren't allowed to give up on my child. I'm going to go in there armed with his past progress reports and the current one that shows so much improvement and ask them just what they hell they're looking for -- honor roll?

Of course, I'm going to do this in a courteous, professional, civilized manner -- unless they resist.

Then I'll take off the gloves.

I WILL prevail in this, though. Look, I understand that my children don't wear halos and they fuck up. And when they do, I'm the first one to call them on it. And I call them loudly. When my daughter fucked up and I felt that she was a potential distraction to other students -- I pulled her and I've been homeschooling her this year, until she gets her shit together. And Tesla was out of the question for her, too. Even though she *was* a disciplinary problem. That would've been pulling her out of the pot and dropping her into the fire.

This isn't one of those instances, though. They just don't want to make the effort. They don't want to be bothered.

No one fucks with my kids.

[Danger Mouse]

60. Right ON...

by taking off the gloves, I take it to mean you will take legal action?
I'm loving this. It's nice to see a parent be an advocate for their kid rather than an advocate for their own self-interest, and standing up to an uncaring school admninistration that would rather sweep its problems under the carpet than deal with them.

[northzax]

61. but he's not working, you said so yourself

if he's not doing any work, then it's not the right place for him. maybe the work is too hard, maybe it is too easy (I personally never did homework as a kid, basically through high school because I couldn't be bothered, it just seemed like a waste of time to me, why do 30 math problems when I already knew how to do them? boring. so I tested off the charts, aced every test and never did a lick of homework. luckily I went to schools with teachers willing to accept this about me, if I was interested, I worked, if I wasn't, I didn't. people tried everything, bribery, threats, punishment, rewards, nothing mattered, I simply wasn't going to bother doing something that was that dull.)

are there other schools that might suit him better?

[reyd reid reed]

63. Even if the school he's attending now isn't the right school for him...

the alternative school that they want to transfer him to is the worst school he could possibly attend. It's a school for students with disciplinary problems -- students who have been asked to leave other schools because of fighting, gang activity, disregard for authority, truancy issues...the school is there because the kids can't legally drop out until they're 16 (and it's about to turn to 18) and with their parents' consent, so they have to send them SOMEWHERE.

The issue that I have is that they don't seem to be trying to do anything to get him to do the work. They did send him to something called a Youth Assessment about a month ago because of his lack of motivation.

Tutoring was the recommendation.

Instead, they're trying to ship him off to what they're trying to say is an 'alternative'.

That's not an alternative.

That's sweeping him under the rug.

[lizziegrace]

20. Awww sweetie

:hug:

[reyd reid reed]

40. ...

:hug:

[datasuspect]

21. it's always been okay depending on what part of town or what zip code you live in

kids in nice neighborhoods get counselors, kids in poor neighborhoods get instructions on how to fill in their dropout form.

[reyd reid reed]

47. Sad, but I fear you might be right...

in many cases.

Which sucks.

[MichiganVote]

25. What about what motivates him? What has been tried? How about visiting the

alternative to see what its like?

[reyd reid reed]

41. I've seen the alternative school.

It sucks.

I looked it up this afternoon. It still sucks.

Low scores. Low emphasis on academics. No music programs. No art program. No athletics.

I've seen the problems with discipline. There is none.


As far as what motivates him...I wish I knew. He waits until the very last second and then tries to pull it together. He needs a tutor -- and, the way I see it, I've spent the past eight months homeschooling my daughter -- he's gonna get some very individualized attention over the summer. I don't know if it'll help -- but it's worth trying.

x(

[Danger Mouse]

26. Let me tell you a bit about what I do, since it is kind of relevant.

I work at a school where we take students who cannot function in a normal district school due to emotional problems. These kids can be all sorts of things: violent, depressed, withdrawn, whatever. The kids we get, truly do not belong in normal schools. Trust me. Your son does not seem to even remotely close to the kind of child we would get.
This is a ridiculous example of schools putting test scores before the welfare of their kids. Thanks to No Child Left Behind, all that schools care about now are test scores, since test scores affect their federal funding.
This is how Bush thinks we will imrpove education in America.
Bush is, of course, a huge idiot.
Best of luck to your son, try your best to fight it tooth and nail every step of the way. Your child is a PERSON, not a statistic.

[reyd reid reed]

45. I don't believe he is.

His grades are low -- but he's smart. They can't figure out how to wind him up and make him go, so they want to shuffle him off to be someone else's problem. They want to give up on him.

He doesn't fit into their little template.

x(

The school that they want to send him to is filled with kids who have been asked to leave their traditional school. Kids who have gotten in trouble for gang activity, fighting, drugs, authority issues...

And they expect me to believe that this will benefit him?

They're NUTS.

[Danger Mouse]

51. They aren't nuts...they're lazy, incompetent, and selfish.

Like I've said, fight them tooth and nail, my friend. The suggestion someone provided earlier about meeting with the principal and superintendent with a recording device and attorney present makes a lot of sense. Best of luck...

[MissB]

28. Can you opt him out of state testing?

[Danger Mouse]

29. noone gets out of state testing.

trust me.
i work with emotionally disturbed children, many of whom CAN'T take a test, and the state forces us to administer the test to them. the child is more than welcome to rip up the test, throw it in our face, refuse to do it, whatever (we can't FORCE them to take it), and it serves absolutely no purpose.
it does serve the purpose of making the child anxious and stressed, wasting our time, the child's time, and the taxpayer's money.
God bless No Child Left Behind!

[The_Wizard]

68. Private schools are exempt

Public schools, city/state run schools all follow No Child Left Behind. We had it here in Texas when he was governor... F-ed everything up. Private schools are businesses in theory and there for exempt. They don't receive city/state or fed money so they don't have to teach city/state or fed approved curriculum... and tend to have far higher standards.

[reyd reid reed]

42. Nope.

Although the alternative school they're recommending (ha!) has applied for an exemption.

He does get extra time to do the math portions of his CSAP and Terra Nova and whateverthefuck else they do.

He doesn't like math. At all.

I don't, either.

[Kerrytravelers]

31. I always advise parents to get an Educational Advocate to represent them at meetings.

The district will do anything to sweep your child under the rug of another school. Have your lawyer with you at all meetings. Tape record all meetings. Have all communications that aren't tape recorded in writing. Do not have phone conversations unless the district allows you to record them, otherwise everything must be in writing.

Just these steps alone will put fear into the district. I have taken a lot of heat when I was still a classroom teacher for this advice, but it served my student's families well.

[reyd reid reed]

43. That's what I feel like they're trying to do...

they want to sweep him under the rug.

I'll be damned if they're going to.

No. Way.

They don't know who they're up against.

:hi:

[Kerrytravelers]

48. It is very likely that the administration is trying to do this.

I wonder if that administration is like ones I have dealt with .They tell their teachers to keep their mouths shut. No one will advise you to get an attorney, but I will.

PM me if you need anything!

kt

[reyd reid reed]

49. Thanks.

:hi::hug::hi:

[Roon]

33. I don't know if this will help

But I was told that I was lazy when it came to academics but in reality, i was plagued with learning disabilities. I hated school because of that.

[reyd reid reed]

44. He's ambivilent about school.

There are things about it that he likes...and he likes to learn. When you sit down and talk to him, he can speak intelligently on any number of subjects (as long as they don't involve math, which he hates)...he loves to listen and absorb the information -- he doesn't do well when he's told what to do with it.

[Shakespeare]

35. Has he ever been tested for GATE programs?

He sounds like he's bright, but possibly bored. Average teachers are generally not prepared to handle that. Depending on how he tests, he might flourish in a more advanced classroom.

[mzteris]

36. READ THIS BOOK!!

The Myth of Laziness by Mel Levine -

and see if you recognize *anyone*.



"A professor of pediatrics at the University of North Carolina Medical School, Mel Levine received acclaim for his previous book, A Mind at a Time, which argued that children’s different learning capabilities demand diverse teaching strategies. In The Myth of Laziness, Levine isolates another group of kids--so-called "lazy" children who aren’t working up to their potential in school--and explores the causes of their low performance. Levine scoffs at the perception that any child is lazy, stating that "everybody yearns to be productive." These children, according to Levine, are simply experiencing "output failure" due to different neuro-developmental weaknesses.

Levine produces case studies of seven children and adults who have been labeled lazy and identifies internal sources that are undermining their production. Many of their output issues revolve around difficulties with writing, as is the case with Russell, who is hindered by his low motor skills, or Clint, whose long-term memory lapses prevent him from expressing himself well. Other weaknesses, such as poor oral language ability, mental energy dysfunction, poor idea generation, and organizational problems, plague the individuals in these case studies. Levine talks briefly about external factors that contribute to low output, such as socioeconomic background, family life, and negative role models. In the profile for Scott Murray, Levine even has the humility to admit that he was unable to reach this young man. External influences--namely, Scott’s privileged upbringing--were too pervasive in causing his output failure.

The last few chapters are devoted to suggestions for what parents and teachers can do to foster productive output in their children and students and how to detect a problem that is internal rather than environmental. Tips on how to cultivate writing skills, set up an organized home office, and assist with homework are aimed at parents while teachers are encouraged to consider individuality among their students’ learning styles. Finally, the appendices offer two worksheets to help students plan stories and reports. Two additional worksheets help pinpoint whether output problems are the cause of poor schoolwork. This is a valuable book that will give parents some guidance in solving their children’s productivity issues and preparing their children successfully for adulthood. --Cristina Vaamonde

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Laziness-Mel-Levine/dp/074321367X

[BlueIris]

52. I was hoping someone would recommend that. nt

[politicat]

50. Are you in D-11?

They pull this shit all the time. I'm sorry, RRR. Is there a chance of going to one of the other districts?

When my step-daughter was in 5th grade, she was ... less than organized. Dreamy. Easily distracted. And utterly normal - not ADD, not ADHD, not depressed, not anxious. In fact, she's pretty bright, and school was alternately boring for her and excessively challenging without being instructive. (We ended up having her repeat the 5th grade for emotional maturity reasons; we moved so it was not emotionally traumatic; she told US that she wasn't ready to be in a junior high setting and after taking that extra year (which wasn't really a problem since her birthday is in August) and she did great through the 8th grade... which is another story for another day.)

D-11 is wretched for teaching by rote, teaching to the test, and focusing on memorization rather than learning skills. (I distinctly remember fighting with her teacher over the utility of memorizing ... something when the real, long-term useful skill would be to learn how to look up that data. But that would require... teaching.) My step-daughter is one of those people for whom why? was her first word. She will happily do things if there's a good reason for it, but "because I said so" does not cut it with her.

While changing schools might not be a bad idea, the alternative school IS. I know someone who used to teach there, and they treat not only the kids but the staff terribly. It's not the place for any kid.

[reyd reid reed]

54. She sounds like Buzzard-butt...

He's fine with doing something as long as he knows why. Just telling him to do it isn't enough, though.

We are in D-11. Until now, we haven't really had any problems...but this is a major one. He is NOT going to Tesla. He's not going anywhere NEAR that school.

And...on top of it all...he brought home a progress report yesterday and while he's got a ton of zeros in math (he hates math), he's only got about three in his other classes, which is a marked improvement from earlier in the year. And, even with all the missing math assignments, he's managed to bring his scores up to grade level.

WTF?

[gemdem]

62. Hang in there

We've had to go to bat for our kids more than once on a number of fronts, and will again if need be.

Give 'em hell. And hold tight to your son and let him know that you're there for him.

[reyd reid reed]

64. ...

:hug:

Thanks.

[The_Wizard]

67. It's Not Asperger's

He sounds just like me and my little brother. When I was your son's age I was lazy, slow and stupid... a day dreamer. But nobody could explain my High IQ. I went down the path your son may end up going down. Simply because in the late 70's and 80's they didnt look for chemical imbalances in the brain and teachers were considerd experts, so my paraents didn't fight. My brother who is 15 years younger than I, started down that path in 7th grade, but my father was wiser this time and sought help. Come to find out he had a problem as well and it was anxiety disorder and ADHD.... but mine was coupled with depression. I didn't get help until 5 years ago when my wife forced me after a breakdown.

Also, he is coming of age, puberty. It effects children differently. There have been new studies that have shown that puberty forces children into odd sleep patterns or increases there need to sleep. Sexuall changes could be weighing on his mind. Lack of interest... 6th/7th grade is when I discovered I had real artistic talent. I made up my mind then that I wanted to be an artist... I'm 40 and an artist and HORRID at math. When I used to work retail, my co-workers would say I was the only person they knew who could count $1 bills and end up with change. Perhaps a visual and performing arts school would be best. They tend to have differant form of teaching that help audio-visual learning or tactile learning.

I hope this helps. My dad has not forgiven himself for not trying harder with me, knowing what he knows now.

Don't Give Up!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

69. Raise hell...

Don't be a pushover. They cannot give up on him just because of this. MAke them work harder. Explain to your son what's going on and if they do ship him to the other school because he's just being lazy, all of his privileges disappear. Call him on his crap. Kids can be blackmailed, and sometimes it's not a bad thing.
Duckie