I try not to be judgmental of other people's decisions, but this just creeps me out.

[LaraMN]

We had a surprise party for my MIL's 50th birthday last night. In attendance were several of my FIL's friends- men in their mid/late 50's- and their new wives- women from the Philippines who are younger than I am.
I feel like I don't really have a right to judge people for the reasons they choose to marry. In truth, marriage is very much a logistical/contractual issue for some people. Still, I could not help but be a bit repulsed seeing these men with their hands on these less-than-thrilled looking young women.

The men just want wives and can't attract local women (for good reasons,) so they basically buy wives- women so desperate to escape their situations in their home countries that they'll marry men here, regardless of what they're like.

I hate it. I feel like it's exploitation of these women and their circumstances.
I found myself imagining how these women tolerate having to go home and sleep with men they have no attraction to.

It's their decision though; I'm torn between feeling repulsed and judgmental about it, and knowing that I don't really have any business commenting on someone else's choices; especially those of people whose former circumstances I have no real understanding of. It's really the men that disgust me, but should they?

[LynneSin]

1. I know how you feel - I've met people like this

They don't want wives, they want serving girls that will wait on them hand & foot and provide wild sex in bed. Their belief is that American girls are too modernized in order to be this type of person and that a mail-order bride could help them find a subservient girl.

I saw one of their catalogs once :scared:

[LaraMN]

4. Yup. I think all three of the men are Bush-lovers.

That may influence my distaste of them, as well. Desperate conservatives. Nothing more appealing...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. everyone is judgemental just about different things.

if you have some standards and someone falls short of them, you will be judgemental.

its not like you are looking to make a law about it.

[LaraMN]

5. I know. I just hate it when I perceive myself as being judgmental.

I know I have my own biases, but I TRY to be open-minded. This was one instance where I found it profoundly difficult to be that way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. large age differences are often accompanied by large power differences

on top of that men already have more power in society, immigrants have less power than americans etc

so all in all i can see why you would be upset by this.

[wildhorses]

17. you really put it perspective nicely, lioness --

i was trying to think of a tactful way to explain how and why it is repulsive. now i don't have to.
thanks.

did you get an ending for your paper?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. yes i did. did you see the flowers i put up for you?

:hug:

[wildhorses]

27. you sent me flowers? thanks :-)

i missed them :-(

but, i am glad if i was of any help.

:hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. this is the thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6517037

[wildhorses]

29. thanks for the link

i just kicked it cos....

LOOK EVERYBODY WE GOT ROSES:bounce:

[SarahB]

36. If I could second any post,

this would be it. LaraMN has nothing to feel guilty about. These men obviously are not able to handle egalitarian relationships.

[ThomCat]

37. Well said.

Big power differences in a relationship are always signs of trouble.

[kay1864]

3. Eww

I'm guessing these guys think that people are admiring them for having young pretty wives--when for most onlookers, the opposite is true.

There was a whole group of them?

[LaraMN]

8. There are three of them.

One I had a BIT more sympathy for. He was the first to do it. He's moderately disabled, and has wanted nothing more his whole life than to have a wife and family, and it never happened for him. The other two? Both had kids, divorced, and have massive personality issues that most women would find highly unappealing.

[Tyler Durden]

6. 'S ok to be creeped.

Creeps me too.
Rupert Murcock, I mean, Murdock divorces his wife of 30 years and marries Wendi Deng:



Headshot from WSJ. Particularly creepy.

[LaraMN]

9. That man I will pass judgment on, any day.

LEAST of all for whom he married.
First class dick. Unequivocally.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. Is there a chance that you will have an opportunity to get to know

these women better? If the situation is as you fear, they might appreciate a friend. If things are not as bad as you think, it will be a relief for you to know and you still might develop a good friendship with these women.

It's hard to remain neutral about a situation that you feel strongly about. Good luck.

Edit for spelling.

[LaraMN]

11. Possibly. My MIL knows them a bit.

She needs friends, as well, so I think that might be to the benefit of all of them.

[skygazer]

10. My best friend is married to a woman from the Philippines

He's 53 and she's in her late 20's. They have a very nice marriage and two kids. She was not "desparate" when she married him but she did want to come to the United States. She was willing to marry a man she didn't know well to do it and it's turned out well for both of them.

Sometimes I think it's a little insulting to people to assume that they must not have any idea what they were doing or that they must have been coerced or desparate to make the decisions they did. I know several other women through my friend's wife who made the same choice. None of them are unhappy - all of them look at marriage in a somewhat different light than American women do. A less romantic, more pragmatic way.

None of them was "desparate" either. As a matter of fact, most of them came from families that had a little bit more than the average - they had internet availability and the means to advertise and all of them had a good education.

[LaraMN]

15. See- that's why I know I shouldn't be judging them.

What I hear about bothers me; the men sending the women money for months, and then the women eventually coming over and marrying them. It sounds like "buying" a spouse.
But it's not my business if that's the arrangement, and you're completely right- "marriage" is a concept with drastically different connotations and implications for different people.

It's a hard concept to accept, as a westernized individual.

[Strawman]

13. Yes, they should disgust you. That is totally repulsive

and exploitive. These women have no genuine autonomy in this arrangement.

[Jokerman]

14. It's the circumstances that bother you, not the women.

They ARE being exploited. Just because their circumstances caused them to make a decision that you and I find disturbing doesn't make them bad people.

Now the middle-aged assholes who would rather buy a subservient women than to have to work on a real relationship, they make me sick.

[LaraMN]

16. Absolutely. Not the women.

That's never been the issue, for me.

[skygazer]

18. My friend's wife isn't remotely subservient

Neither are any of her friends. People are very quick to make judgments on other people's decisions. You don't know what their circumstances were or how much autonomy they had in making that decision. Maybe that is the case here but it's not always the case and until you know, it's not fair to judge.

[LaraMN]

21. There are three different situations here, and they're probably all different.

The only one I know detail of is the first. That one started out quite poorly, when the woman came to the U.S. She brought her two small children with her. They're sweet kids, and they've picked up English amazingly quickly. The husband (who wanted children) was annoyed by the kids. Within months of their arrival, he was talking about divorcing her (he hasn't) and he claimed that she was attempting to find a younger American man. I don't know if this claim is true, but things have apparently been quite turbulent, and she doesn't seem very happy.

The other two marriages are very recent, and I really don't know much of the details.

[Jokerman]

30. IMO, marriage should be about love, not personal gain.

I realize that each situation is unique and I'm glad your friends are happy but I remain suspicious of ANYONE who marries primarily for personal gain. Whether it's for money, social status, a green card, a live-in housekeeper, or just to have a pretty young thing to wear on your arm, it superimposes an element of control into a relationship that I can't help but see as unhealthy.

Believe me, I'm not trying to stop consenting adults from marrying for whatever reasons, I just think that this kind of situation is ripe for abuse.

You say your friend's wife is happy and maybe she is, but do you really think that every woman in her situation feels free to express their true feelings without fear of being traded in for a newer, quieter model?

[skygazer]

34. Does anyone? We all have those fears

But other than that, I have to address your statement about marriage for love rather than personal gain. Not all cultures and societies view marriage in that way and its unfair to impose your values on other people's choices.

In addition, marriage has only become synonymous with love in Western culture over the past couple of hundred years - the historical basis of marriage in all cultures is neither love nor religion but property and inheritance, i.e. personal gain. One can love without being married, after all. What legal marriage does is protect property interests and give a sense of financial security to the parties. It is essentially a business contract whatever your personal feelings for the person you choose to marry.

I am simply saying that it is neither right nor fair to make snap judgments of other people's decisions without knowing more about them.

[supernova]

20. Yes, there seems to be

a whole generation of guys out there like this....

They were too young for WW2 so missed machoing up the way their dads did. But seemed to have been to old (at least emotionally) for the woment's movement to have made sense to them. They didn't develop a sense of compassion the way my dad's generation did. Even he knew my mom had to work, and thanked her for it. In fact, I don't think telling my mom not to work would have ever entered his mind. Ditto his three brothers with their wives. :shrug:

But I don't know, these guys, and my brother is one of them (55 this year), are parodies of conservatives. His wife is a stay at home, never wanted to work or have a career, and he prefers it that way. Ugh. When we have talked about men's/women's roles, he has often called me "little miss libber..." as a way to diminish what I'm saying. When I haven't even brought up feminism as a topic!

I've come to think that maybe that age group is just very bitter. And I'm not sure where it comes from.

Kudos to you LaraMN, for noticing that these women made uneasy choices.

[johnnie]

22. So far... I have yet to find an American woman who likes me

Maybe a non-American woman would. I'm a good guy, make my own money, have a steady job, have my own place and have a decent personality and I don't attract women around here. I am somehow not worthy of anyone's attention. :shrug:

So if I really wanted to get married, maybe a woman from overseas might like me because I am who I am?

[guitar man]

23. My cousin married a Phillipine bride

He's 53, she's 25 I think. He is an OTR trucker for a major freight carrier, or he was until a drunk driver caused an accident last year and he nearly lost his leg.

Anyway, their marriage seems to be working out really well. his first wife flaked out on him and left him with the kids and he was alone for years. When he tried to find a local wife, he just didn't have any luck at all for years, most of them just would not marry a man that already had children.

He actually went to the Phillipines, made several trips and got to know her before he married her and brought her back. He said her family lived in wretched poverty and he has not only been able to bring her out of it, he has helped her family, bought them a store and set them up in business over there.

So, my guess is it would probably be different for each couple involved in such marrieges.

[davsand]

24. The women may accept these situations, you know.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I realize that we are products of our culture where marriage is a chosen thing and who we partner with is up to us. That is not the case everywhere. Literally, it is the case, still, that a wedding is actually the celebration of business deal rather than a celebration of love. The women, may possibly feel ok about the arrangement because the cash may have helped out their family a great deal.

Now, to take this one step further, the MEN in this situation ARE products of this culture, and to THEM it is about power and purchase. I think it speaks volumes about the men that they chose to "buy" mail order brides. They CHOSE to create that power imbalance, and that creeps my American sensibilities out a huge amount.

Frankly, I'd have to avoid those men at all costs simply so I wasn't tempted to kick them in the nads for being such dominating assholes. At a very minimum I'd be very tempted to suggest to them that a blow up doll and a maid would be a better solution for them...



Laura

[FloridaJudy]

25. I saw an older man

With a young Asian woman in the grocery store the other day. She was trying to do the shopping, and he was brow-beating her mercilessly "No, no! Don't buy those tomatoes! These over here are less expensive. Can't you read, you idiot?" It was one of those horrible moments when you want to do something, but can't think of anything that might not make the situation worse.

I don't know if they were husband/wife, employer/help or related in some other way, but the power trip he was on was obvious. I wanted to go over and yell at him "Why don't you pick on some one your own size, you disgusting bully!", but thought that if he treated her this badly in public, who knows what he would do to take it out on her later in private.

I settled for glaring at him, then going home and fuming. Creeped me out, big time.

[guitar man]

26. I would have had a hard time

just to keep from going over and getting in his face for that shit. :grr:

[Parche]

31. Phillipines

When I was in the AirForce years ago, the Phillipine ladies would marry AirForce guys
just to come to the States, work here, and send money back to Manila.
They were so funny to party with, and today I work for a Phillipine owned company......:hi:

[MountainLaurel]

32. We've had one of these in the library

For the past couple weeks. I know what he's doing because I had to show him how to use the Internet to access his "dating service" for "Russian, Asian, and Latin" women. Scantily clad women who look barely legal. :scared: Those poor women.

[cwydro]

33. I find it weird too.

Of course, there are exceptions...but the stories I've heard about this kind of thing.

[Westegg]

35. On the other hand...

...Not saying you don't have a point, but my cousin (A WASP middle-class male) married a woman from the Philippines whom he met through his travels there for business, and they are very happy and have a few happy kids as well. My take is: they're very much in love. I'm not sure where you're writing from, where many men at one party have Philippino wives. Probably not New York, which is where I am.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. i am sure lara isnt against intercultural marriage :)

i think shes mostly agitated by the age difference and difference in stature.

[LoZoccolo]

38. I think that older male sexuality is more reviled in our society than gay sexuality.

Witness the prejudice laid on these guys by people on a progressive message board!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. thats utter nonsense. older male sexuality when practised on an older woman is not reviled

its hardly a problem that theses guys are old. its that they are fucking young women from poor countries who are dependent on them to get their green cards.

[LoZoccolo]

40. So they should, then, only hook up with older women?

Also, I think it's an interesting turn of events that the two of us are having this discussion, after we've clashed a couple times over the issue of outsourcing; this situation with the mail-order brides is largely the same thing!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. women and jobs are the same thing

:eyes:

and on edit : yes, i think old men should stick to old women.

[LoZoccolo]

42. No no no no no no no no c'mon c'mon c'mon c'mon.

I think you knew I didn't mean the metaphor to be valid in all dimensions.

But seriously though, do you think that older men should only hook up with older women?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. yes i do.

r.

[LoZoccolo]

44. OK then, let's go back to the OP...I know you didn't write it...

...but I think some of the same pretexts are there.

I found myself imagining how these women tolerate having to go home and sleep with men they have no attraction to.

If older men are more attracted to younger women, you are basically seeking to impose this same thing on men via a societal taboo by making them tolerate having to go home and sleep with women they have no attraction to. And I think that's worse than what is happening with guys because at least the Filipino women went and chose this themselves rather than being held in check with social pressure.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. do you find the sexuality of older women to be repulsive?

[LoZoccolo]

47. Me?

No. An older woman can date a way younger man and I have nothing against it. You will not hear me say that they should not do that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. well why are all these old men finding women their own age unappealing?

[ElboRuum]

52. Maybe it's not that they find them unappealing.

Maybe there's another reason involved.

[LoZoccolo]

55. Because that's their sexual preference.

You are getting the two things confused:

1. One's preference.
2. Something that someone finds morally acceptable.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. i find large power differences in relationship to be morally unacceptable.

unlike republicans i do not wish to legislate morality, however that does not mean i do not find it morally reprehensible.

[JVS]

53. Interesting claim

I think that old person sex in general is frowned on in our society, but there is definitely more tolerance for women acting as though they are younger than they are than there is with men. Cosmetic attempts to seem younger are much more acceptable in women than with men.

[Digit]

46. I saw a show on tv that told of a real life situation that happened..

A man had "ordered" one of those mail order brides and was abusing her horribly. In addition, he was making her pose for pornographic pictures and finally the authorities caught on to what was happening and freed her.

I am surprised my ex has not ordered one...it is just the type of thing he would do.

[cobalt1999]

48. I know a guy who married a Russian bride

What I find funny, is that she is SO going to divorce him as soon as she has her papers to stay in this country and probably take him for everything. Serves him right.

[Xipe Totec]

49. This is why we need immigration reform

Under present law, there are only three ways to become a US citizen

Nepotism (you have a close relative that can sponsor you)

Endentured Servitude (A company sponsors you, and cannot quit your job for the duration)

Prostitution (You sell yourself for five years of sexual favors).

[KG]

54. you aren't wrong. it's creepy.

i had a newly divorced middle aged neighbor. he was bitter. he was thru with american women. apparently he disliked, amongst other things, the fact that they had the terimity to think for themselves, and not put up with adolescent antics. i think at the time of the divorce she was make alot more money than him (she was extremely fair with him in divvying up their life)

he says one day to me 'i'm going to viet nam'. oh a great vaction spot, i say, ancient atrifacts etc. nope, he's going to find a wife. he had this creepy geisha girl fantasy going on.

there's a little more to the story, but the thing is when it came to dealing with women and relationship his maturity level wasn't much past the high school level. creppy.