Forgiveness. Do you believe you need to forgive those who've

[bertha katzenengel]

personally wronged you?

I do. I wouldn't be as healthy as I am if I had not forgiven four people. It's an ongoing process, though. I have to do it over again every now and then. I told my father I have forgiven him, but he carries such guilt and grief that he doesn't believe me. He doesn't believe it's possible that one of his children could forgive him.

Do you believe you need to forgive those who've wronged or hurt you?

Do you believe forgiveness is a community thing, or a strictly personal thing? (For example, do I have the right to forgive, for example, some coward who beats up my nephew? IMO it's only up to my nephew.)

Inquiring minds want to know.

[AlCzervik]

1. i forgive but i still file it away. Staying hurt and angry only hurts you

well at least thats my experience.

[Coventina]

2. Well, it depends on how you define forgiveness.

Bitterness is extremely damaging to mind, body, and spirit.

We've all seen those people.

So, yeah, you have to find a way to get over the hurt that people cause to you.

However, that does not necessarily mean that you leave yourself open to further hurt.

It all depends upon the situation and the relationship you have with the person, and the nature of the offense.

[bertha katzenengel]

4. I don't believe that leaving oneself open to more hurt is a component

of forgiveness. Of course, that's easy for me to say -- I'm estranged from my father, my psycho lover from hell finally learned to leave me alone about 15 years ago, my mother is dead, and I haven't heard from the other in almost 30 years.

I'm sure others believe forgiveness = welcoming that person back into your heart. I do not.

[Omphaloskepsis]

3. I don't forgive the big things..

The seven guys that beat the shit out of me five years ago... Nope, no forgiving.

My Grandma who fucked me over in major ways... Nope, and she just died. I still can't forgive her for what she did to me and my sister. I'm glad she is dead.

My dad.. Also dead.. No forgiveness.

The Crusty that puked on my bed and stole my stereo. I forgive her.. Hindsight is usually 20/20 funny.

I don't need to forgive a damn thing.. I don't have a problem telling people to fuck off.. Shit, I won't talk to anyone on my fathers side of the family anymore. It has been seven years, the best thing I have ever done is removing them from my life.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. i forgive people who apologize but not people who dont.

i mean its not like i run around with burning rage, but i do think of them in a disparaging manner

[Connonym]

6. beer is better than forgiveness :hic: n/t

[SPKrazy]

7. I think it is wise for your own sanity to find forgiveness

hatred and anger create resentment which is much harder on the resenter than the resentee. The resentee often doesn't suffer at all, while the resenter is left with the physiological by products of sustained anger-- excess levels of cortisol and norepinephrine in their bloodstream, creating an array of problems if they are there over a long period of time.

Additionally, the fact is that I look at it like this: why let someone live "rent free" in your head?

It's hard to forgive, and that doesn't mean forget or that you even think that person is "swell"

I think it means that you let go of the resentment and move on. Past is past, feel the feelings, deal with the hurt, take care of yourself, and push the poisons of hatred and resentment out.

:shrug:

JMO

[bertha katzenengel]

8. It's possible to shut people out of your life without forgiving -- and the reverse is true.

Discuss.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I just want to make it clear that I do not believe that forgiving means making friends again. I've said "I forgive you. Goodbye."

I don't think it means blubbering on each other's shoulders, one saying "i forgive you" and the other saying "i'm sorry" and both saying "we're all good now, buddy." Nnnnn-NO...

[NewWaveChick1981]

9. I don't think a lot about it. If someone's wronged me, I remove myself from their presence.

Both literally and figuratively. I can easily forgive, but I never forget. I don't dwell on problems, but I use them as learning experiences. The old saying, "Once burned, twice careful" is very much my motto.

[Beer Snob-50]

10. forgiveness is strictly a personal thing in my mind

in the case of the coward who beat on your nephew. you can forgive him for the hurt he caused you when he hurt your nephew. i hate to bring religion into this, but i think the biggest thing that jesus taught us (other than that gays are bad and abortion doctors should be killed as good pro life people :sarcasm: ) was that forgiveness while tough to do, is an important trait.

[LaraMN]

11. It's probably healthiest to. It's hard to forgive people who hold no remorse

for their own actions.

For me, it depends on the individual, their action(s), and their intentions (both before and after some incident).

[QMPMom]

12. My problem is that I really do not know how to

forgive some people.

How do I truly forgive my deceased biological mother for eyars and years of emotional abuse?

It started when I was three weeks past 10 years old (I can remember the exact day) and ended the night before she died when I was 23. I truly believe that it would have continued on the *day* she died except she was in a surgical intensive care unit in a coma for much of the day.

How do you forgive someone who said unspeakable things to you? Who made your life a living hell for 13 1/2 years? Who gave you every reason to believe you were the lowest form of life on earth? Who made you wish for the death of either you or her?

[Gormy Cuss]

16. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting.

It means that you have washed away the hold that the person's actions or words had over you. There'd be no reason to forgive someone if their abuse hadn't hurt you. Can you write her off as not worthy of your anger or resentment any more? That every hurtful thing that she ever said or did to you is ancient history? That's the power of forgiveness. It frees you.

I know it sounds simplistic if not perfectly idiotic, but taking back that power is just an amazing feeling.

[RetroLounge]

13. I HAVE to forgive, else I will die...

That sounds extreme, but it makes sense to me.

A resentment can turn so toxic for me that i may end up drunk, and doing so will eventually lead to my death, as it came close several times in the past.

So I have to find a way to forgive, move on, and not dwell. I just do not know anymore how to do that...

RL

[Writer]

14. I believe in reconciliation, not forgiveness.

When you forgive unilaterally you only give of yourself. I have grown up with individuals much like Bush who will never apologize nor try to make amends for their actions, regardless of how harmful or destructive their behaviors were. In a few cases, I recognize that the person involved is psychologically incapable of making amends, so I then can walk away and forget. However there are a few in my past who are capable of apologizing but will not do so because they're more afraid of feeling vulnerable than of quelling the upset of those they've hurt. I cannot forgive those that do no seek forgiveness. I do move on, however.

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. There is no reconciliation without forgiveness. And forgiveness is free, not earned.

To require someone to "earn" forgiveness, whether through contrition or repentance or to make them apologize, is not to forgive at all. It is to demand retribution. It's a banking way of looking at the relationship - "You owe me a debt, and until it's paid, there's no forgiveness of the debt".

But, of course, the catch-22 is that once it's paid, there's nothing left to forgive.

To forgive is to say that it doesn't need to be paid. It is to say to oneself, "The detriment to my health isn't worth worrying about that person's debt to me any more".

[philosophie_en_rose]

23. Reconciliation is more about trust than debts.

I don't really believe in reconciliation either, but I can see how there would need to be some trust established for reconciliation to work.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. I was talking about forgiveness, not reconciliation.

Forgiveness is about debts.

Reconciliation is about getting back into right relationship.

But you are very much correct that reconciliation requires trust.

And I will add, which I should have said in my first post, that while forgiveness is good and wonderful, if it can lead to reconciliation - that's super excellent! But sometimes there can be no reconciliation: the person who wronged is dead, or unavailable, or even so much pain that the hurt one has no desire ever to see or be near the hurter again.

[Writer]

26. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would demand an apology...

and expect that to work. But it is indicative of a true human being for the offending person to ask for forgiveness. That's the time, I believe, when I can offer it to someone else.

Sincerely,

Bad Mood Writer.

[enigmatic]

29. Great post

I agree with you.

[Shell Beau]

15. While it is an extremely hard thing to do, I think it is necessary .

I think we need to let go of that power we still let them have over us. I truly try to be a forgiving person. In fact, I think it is one of my best qualities as a person. It may take time to forgive, but it is worth it.

[Shine]

17. It's easy to hold on to anger and self-righteousness. It's harder to forgive

but, in the end, it's so much more healing and definitely better for your own self, as well. I agree with you, it's about being Healthy and moving forward in your life in a more conscious way.

:hi:

[wildhorses]

18. yes, bertha forgiveness on ALL levels is a soul cleansing

and on-going experience, for me anyway.

i know i have forgiven when i truly can not remember it anymore.

i still remmeber a lot so i know i still have a lot of work to do.

i wish i could forgive my father and on some days i come close but, then i remember and i realize i have indeed not forgiven him....god forgive me.

:hug:

[pdx_prog]

19. Forgivness is the key to enlightenment!

;-)

[some guy]

20. Yes.

For me, forgiveness marks the point where the hurt no longer adversely affects me. It's the point where I've sorted out my own role in being hurt, their role in hurting, likely reasons for both roles, accetance of the human flaws in them and myself, and learned as much as I can from the experience.

What doesn't kill me makes me stropnger, wiser, more empathetic. :)

:hi: sweet lady. :hug:

[bertha katzenengel]

36. hey, some guy!

:hug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

22. Nope.

I don't waste my time dwelling on people I dislike, but I don't waste my time forgiving them either.

[Writer]

27. That's a very good answer. n/t

[Deep13]

24. Depends.

I would like to, but it is not possible if I am still around that person. If a grievious fault is like a broken leg, then being about the person who caused it is like poking that leg with a stick. At that point it usually takes an admission of fault from the offending person.

If it is someone I am not around, then it is a moot point. I still usually will not try to forgive someone unless there is an apology. Otherwise, it is too much mental effort for too little in return.

[billyskank]

28. Yes, I think forgiveness is necessary.

It isn't weak; forgiveness benefits the one who forgives more than the one who transgressed.

And to forgive does not mean that one should forget, or to trust someone who has not demonstrated their trustworthiness. It does not mean to be a doormat.

[Alexander]

30. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."

Yeah, I forgive those who have wronged me eventually, even if they aren't sorry.

But I have a long memory, and I take their actions into account if we ever run into each other again.

[tjwmason]

31. A sermon I heard on the Sunday before Lent put it well.

The Priest said that offering forgiveness to those who wrong one, is essentially saying to them that I refuse to allow their wronging of me to destroy my inner life - I refuse to allow them to have that power over me. Holding and cherishing the wrongs perpetrated against one rarely harm the wrong doer, but can utterly ruin the wronged person.

[bertha katzenengel]

33. I'd like to meet your priest

think he'd talk to an atheist? ;)

Hi, TJ :hug:

[Zoigal]

35. Your Priest appears

to be a wise person.

[bleedingheart]

32. actually it all depends

I can forgive people I respect who have made an honest mistake or have done something they honesty regret.

As for others ...I don't forgive people who I don't respect or who aren't really sorry for what they have done, generally I just cut them out of my life and I find that it makes more room for the people who I do respect and like.

For years I was always the "better person" with the jerks, and I found that it was slowly turning me into one of them because I would forgive and forgive and then I would get mad at myself for being taken advantage of or perhaps because I had to keep forgiving them....
and that anger over my being a bit of a "patsy" made me bitter and I didn't want to be like that...

So it was much better to cut them out..move on and move forward.

and whoa...I found that I had more time for the folks who are good to me...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. People who can't forgive get STUCK

They brood on the wrong they were done instead of figuring out how to move forward.

There is a certain DUer who has told the same story of being wronged several times in the past few years. That DUer is blaming the wrongdoers for current problems when in fact, the DUer could have made great strides if s/he had not wallowed in bitterness for the past couple of decades.

I have a relative who is still virulently angry at things that happened in the 1930s. What's the point? The people who wronged that relative are all dead, so all the anger does is turn that relative into someone you don't want to spend much time with.

A sermon I heard a few years ago contained a saying that has stayed with me as illustrating the value of forgiveness: "Stop trying to have a better past."

It's hard to forgive someone who has committed a recent wrong, but if you're still furious (instead of sad and regretful) about something that happened several years ago, you're STUCK.

[LaraMN]

39. "Stop trying to have a better past."

That's a really neat sentiment. I like it.

[MikeH]

42. I think I am the DUer you are talking about

I saw and bookmarked this, and had to think about this before responding. As you might guess, I did not write this all in one sitting; I wrote this on a Word document and copied to DU posting.

Lydia, I am not absolutely positive, but what you describe sounds like I am the DUer who you are referring to.

Whether I am the DUer you are referring to or not, I would like to say a few things on my behalf.

First of all, I consider my dad to have been many times emotionally and psychologically abusive. This is true even though he did many very good things and many nice things, and was not by any means the worst father or worst parent anybody ever had..

I had my problems with my dad well into my adulthood, in my 20’s and even early 30’s.

My biggest frustration was that I was unable, and did not know how, to deal with him while he was alive.

I was most of the time not able to resolve disagreements or differences with my dad in a way that I could be happy with.

I was often overpowered at the time of a disagreement. My dad would tell me he was saying or doing something “for my own good”, and with the best of intentions, and I would be talked into accepting it (even if it was really not OK with me), and the matter was considered settled. It was always something wrong with me, or my problem, if I wanted to discuss something again, or brought it up, or if I were still upset about something.

I never would have thought, or dared to think, of my dad as being in any way abusive while he was alive. It was about a year after my dad died (and he was no longer around to talk me out of my feelings, something he was good at doing), that I came to realize how really angry I still was at him, and that yes, some of his behavior was abusive, and some of his attitudes were very disrespectful to me.

Upon becoming fully aware of my anger toward my dad and the abusive nature of his behavior, I realized I had turned a corner from which there would be no going back. I was in much therapy, both individual and group therapy, to deal with my issues, and to determine for myself what I needed to do.

One thing I knew was that I was going to speak up when appropriate, and was not going to be silent about the truth about my dad.

And this includes speaking out here on DU, like I have done many times in the Religion and Theology forum in particular, and in my advocacy of the work of Alice Miller, who has advocated on behalf of the (almost universally, in some manner, abused or mistreated) child each of us once was. In particular I speak out against the commandment, one of the “Ten Commandments” often attributed to God, to always honor our mother and father.

It is usually for very personal reasons or circumstances that one acquires, changes, or loses one’s religious beliefs. In the R/T forum I often share, when appropriate, that the realization that Christianity did not help me to deal with my dad (or did not help me to deal with, in general, any source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness in my life) is a major reason I am no longer a Christian.

Lydia, I also want to say that I consider your characterization of me (again, assuming I am the DUer that you are referring to; my apologies if I am not) as wallowing in bitterness, and not having made any great strides in the past two decades (yes, that is how long it has been since my dad died, so that is a reason for suspecting that I am who you are talking about) is not accurate.

First of all, I would want to remind people that making progress, or great strides, in one’s life is not usually a linear process, and usually one is not able to do everything one would want or like to do, or feels one “should” do.

In the years following my dad’s death, I did a lot of things that I had long wanted to do, both personally and in my work. This was true even though I was dealing with a lot of intense anger about my dad, both in therapy and elsewhere.

In the past few years I have not made as many great strides as I had in previous years. I consider that to be, as much as anything, part of the ebb and flow of life.

And even if one does make great strides in one’s life, there always may be one or more areas in which one does not do what one would like, or what one thinks one “should” do or “ought to” do.

As I have stated in other posts, I have not had a serious relationship with a woman that I wish I would have had by now in my life (at age 56), and I am currently looking for a job.

It would be nice for me to say that I have completely overcome past failures, disappointments, and circumstances, and that they have no effect on my present situation, but it would not be true. And I acknowledge that with more regret and sadness than bitterness or resentment.

And I am also dealing with present circumstances, such as my age, and the economy under the * misadministration which favors the already very rich at the expense of the middle class.

One thing I would not appreciate is any preaching or any judgmental attitude about my present circumstances.

As far as wallowing in bitterness, I want to say that earlier in my life, particularly before I came to fully realize the abusive nature of much of my dad’s behavior, I often got very easily upset, angry and offended about, or just plain resented, a lot of things that people in general did which I thought they “shouldn’t do”. I would often let something somebody said or did ruin my day, giving that person power over me.

Having become fully aware of my anger toward my dad and working with it, and dealing with other issues, and doing some important things for myself that I had long wanted to do, I have been able to reach a point at which I am much less bothered and offended by things that other people do. I have a better sense of how much importance I want to attach to something somebody does that I personally don’t like. I have been better able to deal with or confront things that are actually important enough to deal with in some way, and let go the other things.

As far as forgiving is concerned, Alice Miller says that the worst and most harmful thing one can do is to forgive, especially one’s parents or those who have hurt one in early childhood, out of a sense of duty or adherence to traditional morality. What is absolutely essential, according to her, is to allow oneself to feel one’s real feelings and emotions, which are messages from the child we once were. These feelings, if disregarded, often manifest themselves in the form of physical symptoms or illness. The problem with forgiveness done out of a sense of obligation or duty is that it cuts one off from full awareness of one’s feelings. This is a recurring theme in Alice Miller’s books, and most especially in her latest book, The Body Never Lies.

[idgiehkt]

50. Alice Miller is one of my heroes

She cares, *really* cares, about children being abused in current society, enough to tell the truth about how we continue the cycle of abuse, both psychological and physical, in this culture. If you are reading her then I know that you are on the right path. I will check out her latest book, thanks for posting it, and thanks for the links to the websites.

As far as this goes, "As far as forgiving is concerned, Alice Miller says that the worst and most harmful thing one can do is to forgive, especially one’s parents or those who have hurt one in early childhood, out of a sense of duty or adherence to traditional morality"...I can't help but believe that that is not real forgiveness, just conformance to social mores and 'keeping up appearances'. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[hippywife]

37. Absolutely!

It isn't easy but it is essential to a healthy mind, body, and spirit. And, afterall, who of us is so perfect that we might not wish forgiveness from someone else?

I always like the Buddhist approach to anger and forgiveness. So logical, so sensible:

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." The Buddha

"It is natural for the immature to harm others. Getting angry with them is like resenting a fire for burning." Shantideva

"To be angry is to let others' mistakes punish yourself. To forgive others is to be good to yourself." Master ChengYen

Is anger or hatred ever justified? A direct answer from Allan Wallace in 'Tibetan Buddhism from the Ground up':

"'Righteous hatred' is in the same category as 'righteous cancer' or 'righteous tuberculosis'. All of them are absurd concepts."

[av8rdave]

38. I believe it's important

I finally started living a healthy life when I forgave my ex.

Doesn't mean you have to forget...

[Xipe Totec]

40. If I die, I forgive you

If I live, we'll see...

- Spanish proverb

[ElboRuum]

41. No. Not at all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a 13 page list of people whom I've not forgiven. The basis of forgiveness is remorse or regret. Those that show no remorse or regret are not to be forgiven. And I will spend not a second trying to find reasons to forgive people to whom such sentiments would be wasted.

[JVS]

43. forgive, and you will be forgiven

[lost-in-nj]

44. I know I have to forgive

it takes a while for me
But eventually I forgive.....


lost

[leftofthedial]

45. depends

on the person and the wrong

[KitchenWitch]

46. Forgiveness of others is the best gift I can give myself

It does not mean that I forget what happened or even condone what was done to me, it just means the person who wronged me is not living in my head rent free anymore.

[mykpart]

48. Exactly! Holding a grudge to punish someone else is like

taking poison and waiting for someone else to die.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

47. Does forgiveness require trust?

I find that, while I bear no ill will toward the persons who hurt me the most, I no longer like them or trust them. And I'd rather not put myself in a position where trusting and loving them were necessary.

Is this a bad thing?

[KitchenWitch]

49. Not at all - that is a sane thing

Self preservation is paramount.

[begin_within]

51. No. I hold grudges for years.

Just last Saturday I was burglarized by 3 members of an L.A. street gang who were sent here by someone I know. He knew I had something here that he wanted, so he sent some thugs to get it. At 6:30 Saturday morning, I opened the back door to let my cat in, and there were 3 men carrying boxes out of my garage and into a van in the middle of the street - it was daylight, and other cars were going by. I said, "What are you doing?" to which they said nothing. I said, "Get the fuck out of here." I was standing in the driveway in nothing but my underwear. They started to get in their van, and I said, "Get the FUCK out of here." Before he got in, the driver reached in his pocket and pulled out a device, which I thought was a Taser or stun gun or something like that. He showed me that it was on by pressing some button, and some small sparks appeared on it. He said, "We'll be back" and they drove off. I know who was behind this and I will never forgive him. Why should I?
I had another friend for a couple of years, who would borrow money from me and never repay it, and was always asking favors from me. He claimed he was my friend, but he was only using me. I lost over $1000 total and I ended the friendship. I have never forgiven or reconciled with him. He has called me about once a year since then, but I won't talk to him. He finally said, "So I can tell you're still mad at me." Why should I forgive him?
My niece's best friend was stabbed to death in 1995, at the age of 19. The killer is on death row in California. Should my niece forgive him?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

52. I'm so sorry!

Are the police onto the people who robbed you? :hug:

[begin_within]

53. They will be soon. Thanks for your thoughts.

[LeftyMom]

54. I can let things go, but I really can't do a clean slate.

[benEzra]

55. Definitely yes. BUT people who didn't go through what you did

don't have the right to be judgemental of you if you struggle with it. Nor does forgiveness mean giving the person who wronged you carte blanche to do it again; forgiveness doesn't mean letting somebody violate you with impunity.

But holding a grudge doesn't hurt anybody but yourself, IMO.