Any knowledgeable Catholics here?

[hickman]

Which Pope decided to add the doxology to the Lord's Prayer so Catholics would be closer to Protestants? Was it Paul or John Paul?

edit for forgot spellcheck.

[hickman]

1. Nevermind. Now I'm reading about Aramiac primacy and,

in Pauls time the words for wicked and righteous are disturbingly similar. The Lords Prayer does not hold up at all.

This has been offered as a maybe.

O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration!
Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide.
Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.
Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with your desire.
Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.
Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past :mistakes.
Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the :opportunities of the present moment.
For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth-power and fulfillment, as all is gathered :and made whole once again

I think I'm too old to start over.

edit for I suck at typing

[hedgehog]

39. Wow! That's wonderful!

Where did you get that?

[hfojvt]

2. doxology to the Lord's Prayer?

You mean the end part?
"for the kingdom and the power and the glory are yours, now and forever, amen" which is standard in Protestant Churches.

In Methodist and Presbyterian churches at least the Doxology is usually "Praise God from whom all blessings flow; praise him all creatures here below; praise him above ye heavenly host; Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen."

I am not sure if Catholics do that. I have not been to Mass in a long time. If they added it, it sounds like a Vatican II thing, but I cannot remember who did Vatican II, although I could google it.

[JVS]

3. v2 started with John XXIII and ended under Paul VI iirc

[JVS]

5. there are multiple doxologies. I'm used to the "Glory be to the father..." definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxology

I remember my lutheran pastor calling the end of the "our father" the doxology when addressing the fact that Luther stops with "and deliver us from evil" in the Small Catechism

[hickman]

15. We probably prayed the same but I prayed in latin.

Gloria in excelsis Deo. Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis. Laudamus te. Benedicimus te. Adoramus te. Glorificamus te. Gratiam agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam. Domine Deus, Rex coelestis, Deus Pater omnipotens. Domine Fili unigenite, Jesu Christe. Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris. Qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. Qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram. Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis. Quoniam tu solus Sanctus. Tu solus Dominus. To solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe. Cum Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

It was prayed on our knees,

[mduffy31]

6. In mass the celebrant usually adds it after the congregation says the Lord's Prayer

[hickman]

7. Yes that is the doxology.

It was never a part of The Lords Prayer when I grew up. Now it is. It was what separated us from the protestants. I'm long time lapsed.

[rug]

4. I believe it was added when the Roman Missal was revised in 1970 under Paul VI.

http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/11/Start/9

[hickman]

12. Thank you for this link.

I started to cry a little when I read
He extends his hands and he continues, with the people:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis: sanctificetur nomen tuum; adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo, et in terra. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie; et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris: et ne nos inducas in tentationem; sed libera nos a malo.

I chanted this as a child at 8 o'clock mass as a child. Morning mass before school was the one thing that never changed. It was the one fixed stable thing in my life. Boring, and safe.

[WCGreen]

8. I think it was pope George Ringo....

[SeattleGirl]

9. Don't you mean Pope George Ringo John Paul?

[WCGreen]

10. The third....

[SeattleGirl]

11. Right.....

[WCGreen]

13. Or was the Pope Chad helped out by Cardinal Jeremy...

[hickman]

14. Maybe I'm a little touchy these days but thanks for nothing.

No offense meant.

[WCGreen]

16. No offense taken....

But perhaps you should have considered posting not in the usually irreverent Lounge but in the more pious Religious Forums...

[hickman]

18. WCGreen, where would I post this?

As a cranky idiot, should I have posted in GD? Oh, sorry I just read "Religious Forums". Preaching to the choir is a circle jerk. I need to know why I believe. Sometimes people like you show me the way. I really mean no offence. Please take none.:toast: :toast:

[SeattleGirl]

19. I thought it was Mother Katherine (Harris) who helped out Pope Chad.

:evilgrin:

[dEMOK]

17. I was born Catholic until...

...I found out that "Roman" catolicism is just what it says it is.

Catholicism is based on Roman Polytheism. Jesus doesn't need a pantheon of intercessors.

[hickman]

20. Roman Catholicism is not based in Roman Polytheism.

It is based in Judaism which was a living faith when Romans were worshiping Zeus and Poseidon.

[dEMOK]

22. The Roman Catholic Church is a Blend of Christianity and Roman Polytheism...

Every culture that gets Christianized keeps elements of its original nature. Rome was polytheistic. When Rome became Christianized -- she retained her polytheistic nature.

If you were raised Roman/Catholic (like I was) you'd clearly see that a relationship with Christ is made to be secondary to all the perfunctory obligations to countless menial "intercessors."

Roman Catholicism is based on Roman polytheism.

[hickman]

25. I don't understand.

"If you were raised Roman/Catholic (like I was) you'd clearly see that a relationship with Christ is made to be secondary to all the perfunctory obligations to countless menial "intercessors.""

Who? The horror and shame of Roman Catholicism is the many years spent burning, hanging, and basically killing Jews. Jesus was an observant Jew. His mission was to bring his fathers word to gentiles.

[dEMOK]

43. My Experience With Catholicism is Much Different than Yours...

I was raised with the guilt of "Original Sin." I was told that I was born a sinner, and the forgiveness that Christ offered was not for me.

I endured countless uninspired readings of just a few texts. I was bored to tears & told that I was undeserving of God's graces.

As a kid I understood the 23rd Psalm only in cryptic terms, "The Lord is my shepherd, I shalt not want." I understood this to mean that I wasn't good enough to want the Lord & there was no one who cared enough to disabuse me of my misconception.

The Roman Catholic church is an ancient/meaningless cult to me (although there are countless devoted Catholic Christians who deserve every respect).

Google "original sin" & see why I'm so jaded on this issue.

Thanks

[hickman]

21. I'm sorry deMOK but who the hell ever told you that crap?

Catholicism was supposed to be Judaism for Gentiles. Early on.

[dEMOK]

23. Read this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6540325#6548018

[dEMOK]

24. He he...

[dEMOK]

26. Where did you here "that" crap???...

What religion says this?

[hickman]

27. deMOK, I'm sorry. That was insulting and inflammatory.

When I was 10 all I had was the Catholic church. My parents were drunken idiots. Sweet, kind but basically off in their own stupid world. The Church was all I had. I left years ago but am still stupidly defensive about it. Sorry.

[dEMOK]

28. I Apologize (I've been doing alot of that lately)...

I'm glad that this church gave you refuge. When I was ten -- I believed in it too; but maybe you didn't have a priest asking you about how you touched yourself.

A 10 year old kid, I went to confession & the priest asked me about me touching myself. There was nothing in my Catechism that covererd my outrage.

[hickman]

32. I am so sorry this happened to you.

My grade school was across the street from a seminary and not one of the priests or wannabe priests ever tried to harm us in any way. They did Mass by rotation because we all went to Mass every morning. The seminarians were nicer than the priests. Kinder. Never laid a hand on us though. We had mean Polish Nuns who were like the teachers from hell. In 9th grade I went to public school and was about 2 years ahead of everyone. I got c's in catholic school, and all a's in public school.

[hedgehog]

40. The one thing that no one ever gives all those mean nuns credit for is

that they took a bunch of illiterate peasants and pushed us straight in to the middle class! How many of us have Irish, Italian or Polish grandparents who never went past 6th grade who lived to see their children and grandchildren become doctors, lawyers, engineers etc.

[rug]

29. There's not a thing in the world to stop you if you want to go back.

There's a lot of ignorance about religion floating around. Just step over it and go inside a church if there's a pull. And nobody is saying leave your brains behind if you do.

[hickman]

30. rug, most of my life I'm dying to go back.

I'm no longer worthy. I've thought about becoming an Episcopalian, but I'd have to accept that works are not necessary. I can't do that. It's the problem I have with Protestantism. edit for crappy spelling

[rug]

31. The rest of that line is "only say the word and my soul will be healed."

Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea.

[hickman]

34. Sweet lord, I thought I was all cried out over this,

"Lord I am not worthy" Now I cry again. The simple fact is that I'm an old sinner and not worthy. I made my choices and I will live and die with them. Thank you anyway rug.

[hedgehog]

41. Hey - if they let ME in, they're bound to let YOU in!

Seriously, ask around and you'll find a good parish just waiting to welcome you!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[sniffa]

35. *snort*

now that works in this thread. :rofl:

[hickman]

37. Why? n/t

[hickman]

36. OK.

didit.

[begin_within]

38. I always though it was Tom Lehrer.

[tjwmason]

42. Pope Paul VI

As part of the revision of the Missal which followed the Second Vatican Council. The Lord's Prayer itself stayed the same (that is to say sine doxology), the short prayer said by the Priest ("Deliver us, Lord, from every evil...") was changed slightly being shortened mainly by the removal of the invocation of several Saints and the doxology ("for the kingdom, the power...") was added.

In the English translation of the Mass it is made clear that this is not part of the Lord's Prayer proper by the switch in linguistic idioms. The Lord's Prayer follows the liturgically idiomatic use of thee and thy once universal for vernacular prayers, whereas the doxology uses the more modern form - that said, this isn't to reflect some great theological principle, but rather when the translations were put together it was realised that the faithful are very used to the Lord's Prayer in the "Our Father who art in heaven" form and so this alone was left. Interestingly the other prayer always kept in the traditional form is the other prayer which would have been in wide use in English before the reforms of the '60s - viz the Hail Mary.

Pope John Paul didn't make any real changes to the Order of Mass itself - the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal (novus ordo) issued in 2003 was a very slight change, and was mostly to accommodate the new Saints and Beati added to the calendar.