Op Ed: The Penis Rules "Sex Or He Is Your Ex"

[matcom]

:hide:

<snip>

The penis rules.

Excuse me for being so bold, but I wanted to let readers know this is not a column about and for women only. Sure, many women feel that divorce is a particularly female rite of passage. You don't see men writing books about their personal journey following marital breakdown, do you?

But not discussing what men feel about marriage and divorce is like not discussing what's involved in the erection (sorry) of a stable building.

And a man's need for sex is what is often misunderstood. So, on the important subject of the horizontal relationship in marriage, here's what I've learned.

The penis rules. Or should, anyway. “If men don't feel respected or loved, if they don't feel like a man, if they have to walk around on eggshells when it comes to their sex drive, if their horniness is treated like an inconsiderate act of selfishness – like typical male behaviour – then they will reassert themselves with another woman,” says a man I will call Mr. Multiply Divorced.

People who make coitus their career understand this. Ask Lou Paget, sex therapist and best-selling author of books about orgasms and helpful tips on giving blow jobs, among other bedroom matters. “There's no other time in a man's life when he is more connected to his masculine self than when he is making love or having sex with the woman or partner of his choice,” she explains.

“And men know this. … It's a huge part of the male psyche that he be acknowledged for what his efforts are, and he will go elsewhere to get it if his partner doesn't give it to him. He will get it through sports. He will get it through work by the accumulation of money. I can't tell you how many men I know who are massively successful but who have crappy marriages. Or they will get it from another woman.”

It's children that change the sexual energy of a marriage. I remember an acquaintance of mine complaining about her husband's expectation of sex. She had two young sons at the time, and she was a wonderful hands-on and attentive mother. There were lunches to be made, laundry to finish, dinner to make, homework to help with, errands to run, and just before she passed out from exhaustion, a husband to do. And she did, because if nothing else, she is highly responsible. (And still married, by the way.) The whole yummy-mummy trend is really a statement of denial, if you ask me. Most young mothers will tell you that after having their bodies taken over by pregnancy, and then the demands of breastfeeding and constant monitoring of a baby, what they would really like at night is to be left alone for a bit, untouched. They've overdosed on closeness for the time being.

More at link:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070606.l-genex07/BNStory/lifeFamily/home
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EDIT:COPYRIGHT. PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5
PARAGRAPHS FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS SOURCE
PER DU RULES.

[PassingFair]

1. Sometimes, we just don't CARE if they leave.

Between the kids and the job and the house....in a ranch house there's NO privacy.

Time to pick up the pieces later. Or not.

[eridani]

116. One less kid to take care of n/t

[raccoon]

2. DU'er men who are wannabe writers, take up your pens!

Or I guess I should say, your laptops.

Here's an opportunity for you!

"You don't see men writing books about their personal journey following marital breakdown, do you?"

Especially if you're good looking, you can probably get a book contract with some publisher.

[NewJeffCT]

8. that's an idea

I'm a divorced guy, gotten remarried since, and I think I'm decent looking.

[Deja Q]

38. Surely there's a typo in your subject line?

:rofl:

[crim son]

3. Yeah, well. Too bad.

If he doesn't do laundry, I don't do him. :P

[av8rdave]

4. The things we do for love...

[NewJeffCT]

9. If we were married

I'd be getting it a lot then - my wife doesn't have a clue about how to our operate a washer & dryer... or a vacuum cleaner for that matter. I'm still trying to teach her about dividing the clothes up between light & dark before I wash them, but I haven't had much success over the past 5 1/2 years.

[supernova]

24. Jeff, you inspire

pleasantly obscene thoughts. You're one in a million. :-)

[NewJeffCT]

27. with my wife

I'm at least happy that her clothes find their way to the clothes basket, even if all her dark clothes are mixed between the basket for whites & colors. And, my wife does do some dusting of the mini-blinds and, rumor has it, has been spotted washing dishes a few times.

My ex-wife couldn't even manage that much - her clothes were just piled onto the floor in various places around the house, so I'd inevitably start a load of laundry and later find something else that needed to be tossed into the washer. :mad:

Oh, and my main XMas gift back in 2005 was a new Dyson vacuum cleaner!

[Withywindle]

95. Wait a minute!

When were you and I married? I don't even remember!


(Slobby women REPRESENT!)


I've never separated lights from darks in my life and I don't plan to start now. (Sounds racist to me!) I don't fold, either.

[tigereye]

99. I am not an obsessive house-keeper, but I do separate light and dark

clothes - my husband does not, and seems indifferent to the prospect of the shades of grey that may result...

as far as the OP goes, I think men have a strong need for intimate physical contact that is somewhat different than women's - however, this is only from my own experience.

[Withywindle]

104. I have very few light-colored clothes too, that helps.

I'm of the "if everything's black or dark blue, you don't have to worry about what matches" school of fashion. :)

You may be right about men and their need for physical contact--but as a woman with a very high libido, I do feel sympathy for anyone stuck with a partner who chronically rejects them. It's emotionally painful as well as physical frustrating, and even if your partner swears up and down it's not, you DO start to wonder if it's something wrong with you. Badgering someone for sex isn't a very loving act, true, but condemning your partner to a sexless existence if s/he wants to stay with you isn't either.

[DKRC]

131. Right there with you

Got tired of being treated like there was something wrong with me. Now all I have to do is keep the power bill paid and I don't get any guff.
:evilgrin:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

139. Yes, there are men out there not interested in sex.

I know, I got divorced from one. He acted like marriage was living in a boarding house and sleeping with the landlady about once a month. No emotional support, no sweet words, no nothing.

And then he bitched at me about how this marriage was a failure. Hmm......

Ah, but my present studmuffin is thankful that my ex "threw away a perfectly good HOT NUMBER".

And I'm thankful his ex threw away a "perfectly good studmuffin" who can fix things!!! And explain relativity to me. And change lightbulbs and not fry his sweet arse.

[Withywindle]

140. Ugh. Glad you got out of that one.

I may be a crappy housekeeper, but I've had decent luck with men who appreciate my other talents far more. :evilgrin:

[BarenakedLady]

15. Hee hee

:yourock:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

56. I do laundry like a bastard.

:P

[crim son]

66. You're the exception to my every rule;

no laundry required to get me to put out for you. :evilgrin:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. Why do you have to live so far away?

:mad: x(

[crim son]

75. I tried to get out of here for the first ten, twelve years after I arrived.

STBE couldn't find work. I'm cursed... no SA :cry:

[DS1]

5. You left out the best line

x(

[idgiehkt]

87. I think I found it

"Which brings me to a final bit of good advice. Be a lady in public and a whore in the bedroom. And help him understand that before talking dirty, the whore sometimes needs to have a cuddly chat about her day."

:rofl:

[noamnety]

6. entitlement

entitlement to access to women's bodies as the foundation of masculinity

"man's need for sex" pfffft. a desire to screw someone is not a need.

Trying to figure out if there's a way this article could be more dismissive of women, written more from a male supremacist point of view.

*thinking*

nope.

[Redbear]

11. I find the column much more offensive to men than women

it describes males as simpletons who are defined solely by their genitals.

[noamnety]

12. Not sure which is more offensive

Yes, it defines men that way, and that is offensive.

And then it adds that women need to subordinate themselves to the self- and culturally- defined "needs" of the simpletons.

[Redbear]

13. You are correct.

Defining the magical gift of love and relationships in such lowest common denominator terms is offensive to everyone.

[DS1]

14. Funny. I'm not offended by this opinion piece.

[noamnety]

16. Were you offended by this? (discussion point)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1068505

Think about the line in this essay now, about women needing to be "whores" in the bedroom. Do you think women being forced into prostitution in order to survive has some parallels to slavery?

[DS1]

19. Oh, that.. I didn't bother to click your link at first because I incorrectly

assumed it would be relevant to this OP-ED and I'd read the entire piece.

That's got nothing to do with this, so it's not a discussion point.

[noamnety]

20. How I read it

"Whores" is used in a haha funny nudge nudge wink wink way which is offensively dismissive of the very real plight of women sold/forced into prostitution. It's overwhelmingly a tragic human rights violation, on a grand scale.

So hearing it used lightly offends me in the same way that the church dressing in black face and making light of slavery in the pursuit of some "good clean fun" offends me. It offends me in the same way that dressing up as an Abu Ghraib torture victim for a halloween party would offend me.

The metaphor is additionally ugly because in this essay, the message is that women need to allow men to have sex with (at?) them, when they don't want to - which is normally defined as rape. What they are saying is if you don't want to have sex, you should have it anyway, or there will be consequences (VERY often financial).

So it's not a metaphor, really - it's reality. Make your body available for sex against your own desires for economic survival.

[DS1]

22. We obviously read it differently

Slut would have meant the same thing.

[noamnety]

23. How is that derogatory gender slur less offensive?

Slut:

1. a dirty, slovenly woman.
2. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.

And still, the implication that women must allow access to their bodies when they don't want to - in order to avoid consequences.

Rape:
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Rape doesn't require physical force and overpowering.

No means no. Anything less is rape. Why would anyone not find that offensive?

[DS1]

25. I think you're reading too far into this, and taking things too literally

and that's as far as my conversation with you on this matter goes.

[noamnety]

29. I think you aren't using critical thinking in this particular case

sometimes our beliefs pop up in weird ways, through unexamined assumptions about language, and about how people should act.

I think that's what happened in that church - it's not that they perceived themselves as racist, and I bet they are shocked by what other people read into their activities. But from an analytical point of view - one that looks at the deeper meanings and implications - it's clear they were being offensively dismissive about human rights violations.

[Joe Fields]

68. Are you saying then, that a woman has the right to turn off her sex

drive, within the confines of marriage, that is, to deny her spouse sex, and fully expect there not to be consequences, meaning that she should be surprised when the husband goes shopping elsewhere for intimacy?

[idgiehkt]

72. I don't think that is what happens

if there is no sex either the relationship is over and it's time to move on or there are problems and underlying resentments that need to be worked through. I don't think anyone really 'turns off' their sex drive.

[Joe Fields]

74. Naturally, that is the end game. Of course there are underlying

reasons for absence of intimacy. Those reasons preclude one or the other of the couple to basically decide that, for all intent and purpose, the marriage is over. Yet, so often, instead of divorce, the couple manages to continue to live together, mostly out of a resigned convenience, until one of them feels the need for more out of a relationship, and begins to look elsewhere.

My thesis is this: When it gets to the point where intimacy no longer exists, then neither spouse should be surprised when one looks elsewhere for the intimacy they seek.

[idgiehkt]

81. I don't think either should be surprised, but only because

I think that it should be agreed upon that the disatisfied partner is going to get their needs met elsewhere. If they've talked about it and been to counseling and explored all the avenues together and still one person feels sexually 'unfulfilled' or whatever, and they still love each other and want to stay together, then maybe they should open the relationship up. If the other party can't agree to that they should separate. But I don't think either party should be 'surprised' by infidelity...if that happens people just aren't communicating.

[treestar]

106. "Deny him" smacks of entitlement

Says it all right there.

[SarahB]

49. I think what it's trying to say is....

men get turned on by women who express their enjoyment in regard to sex during sex itself. Inhibited people of any gender do not make for fun lovers.

It would be nice if there was a better word in the English language to describe being sexually open and verbal, but language seems to center unfortunately in our culture around various words relating to prostitution.

[noamnety]

52. "Inhibited people"

inhibited?

No means no
No means I ought to, but I am inhibited?
No means I ought to, but there is a problem with me?

Such an odd word choice.

[SarahB]

57. Of course no means no.

Most women aren't in intimate emotional or sexual relationships with cads, assholes, or rapists. Most men and women genuinely want happy sex lives and positive emotional relationships. If someone is being abused, she needs to get counseling and leave a relationship like that. It's about being open with your partner. "Whore" may be a bad word choice, so let's replace it with something better if so desired.

[noamnety]

59. I wasn't putting any judgment on the men there.

I was questioning the judgmental overtones of a word describing a woman who does not want to have sex.

I think if you say "I do not want to have sex" that's being open with your partner.

I'm not sure how you replace "whore" with another less offensive word designed to mean "women should have sex when they don't want to, in order to appease their partners." The concept is offensive.

[gravity]

88. Most men don't want to force women into having sex

They want a woman who enjoys having sex and wants to do it with them. I can't speak for women, but I believe the feelings go both ways.

If one partner feels like they are lacking sexual interest from the other, there is going to be problems in the relationship.

[shimmergal]

114. Not so worried about offensive, but

the article is inacurrate. Plenty of us have given our man all he wanted in bed, whether by calculation or because of genuine desire, and had him leave anyway. In my case (2 cases, actually), there were still warm, friendly feelings toward me afterwards -- so perhaps the guy's ego was saved -- but the divorce or breakup happened anyhow.

Moral of this? Sex isn't everything, maybe?

[GirlinContempt]

119. I'm not really, either.

[SarahB]

48. I'm a married women and

I have a need for sex! What does that make me? (I've also had four babies, so I know and know well everything here.)

Yes, sexuality within the course of a marriage (or any committed relationship) is important. If my husband couldn't sexually satisfy me, there'd be trouble and vice versa. If sex is lacking for either party, it's should be part of the normal elements of communication to solve it- being a need for increased help around the house, Viagra or increased foreplay (common for men to possibly need to improve, though individuals vary) or getting hormone levels checked if needed, switching birth control methods, or just communicating your needs and desires (some things many women need to improve, also variable by individuals).

It is the responsibility of each partner to work with his or her partner to communicate here. I'm not revealing confidences, but my husband and I were both married once before and neither of us were happy in this aspect of our prior marriages. It's not fair to label men who want to enjoy a normal aspect of a relationship as misogynists.

[noamnety]

62. Your personal wants don't make you anything (labelwise)

A man's personal wants don't make him anything.

The idea that a woman who does not want to have sex is "abnormal" and somehow at fault is a problem. The idea that a man is ENTITLED to access to any woman's body is misogynistic, as is the notion that not meeting a man's sex drive is a medical or psychological problem. The use of the word "improve" to describe a woman's "sub"standard desires is problematic.

As one of the men here pointed out, it's a problem in our culture as a whole that the person with less or no sexual desire is considered at fault, described as "withholding" rather than the more neutral "not interested" and blame is typically thrown on them for not being coerced or manipulated into doing something they don't wish to do.

It's less common to see an article written from the perspective that the person who wants more sex has a medical problem that needs to be addressed. Why is that? What does that say about our culture?

[Deja Q]

84. So nobody's entitled to anything.

I'll stop fighting for universal health care then. :evilfrown:

[noamnety]

85. Wtf?

Nobody is entitled to physical access to another person's body for sexual gratification against that other person's wishes.

How you got from "coerced sex (i.e. rape) is wrong" to "you should oppose universal health care" is way beyond my comprehension skills.

[Deja Q]

86. The clarifier that compeled me to respond...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6591100&mesg_id=6591100


And, you're right, my response you responded to was clearly out of focus and lacking in reference.

To make a long story short, the arguments we humans make from reality but then argue from a different tangent of the same reality are not just convoluted, they are grossly entertaining. Even if the OPs and responses are on disparate topics, both have the same core topic: Sexuality.

Which leads to a third topic, if sex was such a panacea, what would prevent sexual frustration from having people do bad things? As I've said once or 50,000 times on DU, it is known celibacy is more or less bestowed upon me. Yet I haven't gone around raping or pillaging, using the phrase "I've never had a good lay" as an excuse!! I can control myself. It's not that difficult to do.

[Withywindle]

96. UGH. Yeah, this editorial is written from a horribly misogynistic point of view

But it goes both ways, for both genders.

Of course no one is "entitled" to use of anyone else's body, and no ALWAYS means no, and different people have different levels of libido and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

But speaking as a woman with a high libido, if I found myself in a relationship with very little sex and not much hope of that situation changing in the future, I resent the implication that I'd be obligated to stay and tolerate the situation, condemning myself to a lifetime of sexual frustration. (I've been in that situation, actually, with a man whose libido plummeted after we got more committed. The constant sense of rejection ate away at my self-esteem like you would not believe, and yes, I did look elsewhere, and I did gravitate towards other men who flirted and recognized me as attractive to them.) I wouldn't expect a man to stay either.

Sex is one of those areas where compatibility is important. For some people, sex isn't all that important really. I'm not one of those people. I doubt I would do well in a longterm relationship with someone who was.

I understand what you're saying about the historical expectation of sexual access to women, and the oppressiveness of that. But in my life, I've actually suffered much more from the "nice women don't want sex" flip side of the oppressive stereotype. If I had to pick one at gunpoint I would definitely go for the "whore" over the "virgin" side of the double standard, because at least then I'd be gettin' some.

[treestar]

107. True, why is the other person never criticized for not turning on

the other or being sexy enough? It's just a sense of entitlement. They think they should never have to make the effort to be sexy or alluring themselves. There is no sense here of "My wife doesn't want sex, so what can I do to get her to want it?" It's just stopping cold and blaming her.

[GirlinContempt]

120. Are we reading the same thing?

Because, what I'm reading isn't talking about mens entitlement to womens bodies, or womens abnormality. It's talking about a relationship between people wherein sex is one of the elements, and how if the sex is not there, it harms the relationship.

If I had a partner who was never interested in sex, never wanted sex, it could wind up being a deal breaker. It'd be his RIGHT not to want it. I would not be ENTITLED to his body, or whatever you're talking about, but I'd want it. It's part of a healthy relationship (to me), and so over time, it would break it down.

What she's saying is no big surprise. I didn't see anything about any women not wanting to have sex being medical or psychological. And, frankly, you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to marry someone with a high sex drive is yours is really low. Cause, you're framing this like these women just have low sex drives and don't like sex, and these men are demanding access to their bodies. Sounds like she's talking about people actually having sex, and then the sex slowing down or disappearing in the relationship, and how that damages the relationship.

[gollygee]

122. It's written in a pretty one-sided way

It sounds like the idea behind the editorial is that if women aren't interested in sex, they'd better put out anyway or their man is going to go elsewhere. That makes me gag.

Why wouldn't it say that if a man wants sex more often than a woman, the man and woman are going to have to figure out why he wants sex so often, and why she wants sex so seldom, and together find a way to bring their wants to the same level? Why doesn't it say that if the man wants sex more often than the woman, the man should find out how the woman likes to be romanced to see if being romanced more often increases her libido? Or even question how often the man wants sex? Why do we assume that the problem is that she doesn't want sex often enough, and not that he is wanting sex too often? Did it even say how often this hypothetical man wants sex in the article?

What the woman wants doesn't seem to be a concern in the article. It's "put out or get dumped". Lovely.

[GirlinContempt]

123. Again,

what I got out of the article was a decline in sex in a relationship damaging it. Wanting sex seldom or often doesn't matter. However, if I am sexually voracious, and my partner is too, then suddenly lacks interest in sex, it could cause a problem. Could? Would. Knowing that I am sexually voracious and sex is important to me, I would choose a partner with similar sexual tendencies. If I did not, this is my problem. If my partner was sexually similar, and then suddenly and frequently not at all, problems.

It doesn't matter how often the hypothetical man, or my hypothetical woman, wants sex. What matters is a change in one of the building blocks of a relationship, which for many people is a really important thing. I know if my partner suddenly didn't want sex with me, I would feel rejected. Not once, but over a period of time. And I would feel sexually frustrated. And I would feel hurt that he no longer desired me. It would probably be about his OWN shit, but it would make ME feel like that.

[gollygee]

132. What I got out of the article

is that someone had a baby, or young children, and had a lower libido as a result. The article said that it is children that take the sexual energy out of a marriage. What is the answer to this? Maybe it's a post-childbirth hormone issue - if so IMO the dad has to wait for the mom's hormones to get back to normal - he can't expect she's just going to put out as often as before no matter how much she doesn't want to have sex. Maybe she's overworked. If that's the case, he needs to do more around the house and get up during the night with the kids more so she's better rested. There is a problem there but I completely disagree with how the article presents it. It shows the problem entirely as the woman's problem, that she should have sex even if she doesn't want it, that if she doesn't want sex and doesn't have sex anyway it is completely understandable if her husband cheats on her and/or leaves her, and as if her lower sex drive is some deliberate attempt to emasculate her husband.

[noamnety]

127. I'm wondering if we're reading the same thing, also.

The article I read was not written in a gender neutral way, although you're discussing it as though it was - and as though I'm the one "framing this" as if the women have low sex drives. The ARTICLE framed it that way. If you disagree with the article's framing, that's not my fault.

The article I read says: "The penis rules. Or should, anyway." In other words, the man's sexual desires are more important than the woman's. That's not as a gender neutral statement. It absolutely is talking about men's entitlement to women's bodies.

The article I read tells WOMEN how they should act in public - "Be a lady" in public - what exactly does THAT mean? Why is that part of this article? Don't be too assertive? And it tells women how they should act in the bedroom - using a gendered slur, not a gender neutral term that reflects healthy attitudes toward sex and intimacy, and it uses a slur that carries some serious historical baggage related to slavery, human trafficking, and lack of free will for women, specifically.

The article I read tells men how to behave in relationships - not because it will make life more emotionally rewarding for their partners, but for the express purpose of manipulating them so that women will make themselves sexually available.

[GirlinContempt]

129. No, it wasn't gender neutral.

One of the premises is that men rely more heavily on sex in relationships. I'm gender-neutral, because I personally am similar to the type of man described, who requires sex as a part of a relationship and feels rejected and hurt when it's suddenly gone.

One line at the end of the article that expresses a cliched sentiment and is in no way an original thought hardly means the article is telling women how they should act in public. As for the slavery and lack of free will crap, I'd be more likely to find it offensive or insulting that you assume women who've been free with their sexuality are coerced. Not every whore is a whore because she has to be. Free will, exactly.

I don't see how it tells men how to behave, it lays the cards out on the table. Men often express more through sex, and consider sex a part of a healthy relationship. Nothing in there says "MEN! Manipulate women in to fucking you!".

Even if I was married to a woman, if she didn't make herself sexually available to me, I'd probably end up divorcing her. Because I wouldn't marry someone who wasn't sexually available in the first place, and a long term lack of sex would cause a whole host of other problems.

[noamnety]

130. It's not just the one line at the end of the article

It's the opening as well - The Penis should rule is a pretty clear message to women that men's sex drive trumps their own. That's why it's written from a male supremacy point of view - even though the author is female.

As for the meaning embedded in "whore" ... yikes. The history is one of human trafficking, which is a human rights violation. Are there exceptions to that? Yes. The history, however, remains the same. The word itself is one that expresses - even absent of its history - the notion of selling access to one's body as a commodity - which makes perfect sense in the context of the article.

All anyone has to do is look at the Paris Hilton threads to get a sense of how the word is used - and the contempt for women that is wrapped up in it.

I hope we can both agree that a healthier attitude toward sex is something closer to having it as an expression of intimacy and trust and enjoyment of it for it's own sake - not because if you don't, there's the fear that the other is liable to divorce you or have an affair.

[Karenina]

135. Women worldwide

are coerced into accommodating penises who have been socialized to believe with both their heads that THEY RULE. It's one of those outta control things, way up on the list, like GLOBAL WARMING! I found the Op-ed, with all its assumptions, utterly DISGUSTING.

[Deja Q]

83. Agreed. But some in society think it's okay to screw people without their permission.

Those Enron execs were just as bad as rapists.

[eridani]

117. Everybody needs sex

Way too many men think that this means they are entitled to have another person help them out with it, and women mostly just have confidence that there will be at least one store open on weekends that never runs out of D batteries.

[Deja Q]

125. "D" batteries only proves size is an issue.

The average unit's thickness is a bit smaller than the diameter of a "C" battery. The average length is 5.5". Once again, two "C"'s, no "D"s.

Maybe that's why some men rape. They feel entitlement. Maybe more people should live with the concept "radical acceptance" rather than hurt others' lives, the very act of which is barbaric and gross.

[eridani]

134. The batteries are not necessarily in the working ends of silicon units n/t

[Deja Q]

137. But the "D" tells us the relative size as much as what they can power.

:evilrgin:

[eridani]

138. Observe the relationship of the batteries to the stimulator

http://store.babeland.com/vibrators-bullet-eggs

Now do you see?

[DS1]

141. Don't worry, it's just another reason for HT to talk about dick size

:)

[Deja Q]

149. FWIW.

:rofl:

Got nothing left to do that people want me to do.

[MissMillie]

7. getting married is about having a life partner... not just a sex partner

also: foreplay begins in the kitchen. Let me explain:

if women had more help making the lunches, doing the laundry, fixing the dinner, supervising the homework, and running the errands, then we may not be too tired for sex afterwards.

(I have to add here that women need to be able to relinquish control of these chores and accept that they may not be done the way they themselves would do them.)

One more thing: if you can't deal with real intimacy and the verbal exchange required for real intimacy, then forget about the rest of it. I need to know it's not just my body that makes you feel close to me.

Your penis doesn't rule anything.... certainly not me.

[raccoon]

17. Well said! nt

[mzteris]

35. best response ever!

:woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause:

[One_Life_To_Give]

46. Not in my experience

You can make dinner, do the laundry, rotate the tires, fix the leaking power steering, etc. And at the end of the day be treated the same as if you laid about the couch all day drinking beer and breaking wind.

[newportdadde]

128. That has been my experience as well.

[AngryAmish]

76. Have you considered that some people have different ideas of intimacy?

Your definition of intimacy is quite narrow: it means talking a lot.

I don't like to talk a lot. Am I incapable of real intimacy?

[MissMillie]

82. if you can't share your feelings you can't be truly intimate

if you have non-verbal ways of sharing your feelings, and making them clear (sex can mean anything, so I don't think sex counts) then you can be intimate.

[Orsino]

10. There's a power dynamic, to be sure...

...and it's a shame that desire is not always reciprocated, and that partners can evolve away from it at different rates.

A partner without similar desire is shutting down an aspect of a healthy personality, and shouldn't be too surprised when the other begins looking for that validation elsewhere. We need to matter to our life-mates, and being told that we don't--even in just one way--can be devastating.

[mzteris]

36. don't you see that that works

both ways?

"We need to matter to our life-mates, and being told that we don't--even in just one way--can be devastating."


If we're expected to "do it" - even when we don't want to, feel like it, too damn tired, etc. . .
that's also saying we "don't matter".

I want to know it's ME you want, not just my body. If *I* matter to you, then you'll wait until I'm ready - AND help me be ready by being an understanding, considerate, and helpful mate.

If you're "getting it" is more important than ME - then by all means, please DO go somewhere else for it. And STAY there.

[Orsino]

43. I agree.

I would only emphasize that the possibility of devastation--on both sides--is reason for frank communication to avoid the end that otherwise might be inevitable.

The pretending that all is well only delays an important reckoning.

[mzteris]

45. And the lack of listening,

patience, understanding, compassion, etc - only makes it that much more difficult for intimacy to occur.

[AngryAmish]

77. It does work both ways

If one is not ready and their partner places a high value on sexual intimacy, then isn't it inconsiderate to be offended if the partner seeks sexual intimacy elsewhere? It would be part of being an understanding, considerate, and helpful mate. That way one does not need to perform when tired, don't want to, etc. If one is not defined soley by sex then sex outside of the partnership is no big deal.

[mzteris]

91. yeah, right, sure.

If that's all "one wants" - have at it.

I - for one - ain't buying whatcher selling.

[pokerfan]

89. As a guy

I figured out long ago that foreplay begins in the kitchen, or in the driveway washing her car, or via any other favors to make her feel appreciated and cherished. And even then, don't go into bedroom expecting sex on a quid pro quo basis. I don't think most men want to have sex with a partner who isn't into it. But I'm a lot less selfish about sex these days than when I was in my twenties.

It's probably an oversimplification but:
Men need sex to feel loved and women need to feel loved to want sex.

And one of my favorites: Women fake orgasms because men fake foreplay.

My two cents, anyway.

[DKRC]

133. I need that on a bumpersticker!

:rofl:

[NewWaveChick1981]

18. The writer left out the part about it really being a woman's "duty" to

fulfill her man's needs no matter how awful or tired she feels. :eyes: :sarcasm: I just love it when "writers" spout off about subjects they know the least about. :grr: She cited a few examples of this, but the underlying tone is the same as so-called "books" written in the 1950s about pleasing your man.

Some of us don't see it as a "duty". We find sex extremely enjoyable. :) And some men actually think with the big head instead of the little head. :)

[NewJeffCT]

28. I agree with most of what you say

However, I think us men tend to think with our little heads most of the time - it's just that some of us have little heads that realize that the more our partner is pleased, the more the little head is going to be pleased over time.

Hopefully, I phrased that carefully enough there...

[NewWaveChick1981]

33. Good analysis.

:) I guess some guys just have their little heads on straight. :hi: :P

[supernova]

41. Ding Ding Ding!

We have a winner! Jeff, :yourock: :loveya:

:D

it's just that some of us have little heads that realize that the more our partner is pleased, the more the little head is going to be pleased over time.

[dropkickpa]

21. Why is it the woman's sex drive is always discounted?

I've ended several relationships with men because my sex drive was higher than the guy could/would keep up with and I ended up feeling like the guys in the article.

It's not a man/woman thing, it's mismatched sex drives and our reactions to that disharmony.

[One_Life_To_Give]

47. Not talked about

I think women have trouble talking about this even with other women. Statistically speaking of women in relationships with men, 60% have a lower drive than their partners, 20% report roughly equal drives and 20% report significantly higher drives. So in most random small groupings of women would never have amore than 1 who felt her partner wasn't up to expectations while there would be several who felt put upon by their partners. As such even as liberal as we are today. Women who want more from their partners are less likely to speak up about it than their statistical numbers would indicate.

Or in short with the majority of women complaining about being put upon by their mates. The ones who don't believe their mates measure up are reluctant to speak up about it.

[dropkickpa]

50. There is that

Many women are still afraid to enjoy and/or speak about enjoying sex. For women, all too often, it still comes down to the whole "only whores like sex" thing.

[Missy Vixen]

78. My informal statistics show otherwise

>Women who want more from their partners are less likely to speak up about it than their statistical numbers would indicate.<

I don't know any women over 35 complaining about too much. I've heard them all complain about not enough.

Of course, IMHO, YMMV.
Julie

[unpossibles]

147. I think we need something to back this statement up

such as names and numbers....


just kidding, obviously.

[Missy Vixen]

148. LOL!

Seriously. I've heard women discuss this repeatedly. I'm wondering if the issue is that they're not sixteen anymore.

IMHO, YMMV,
Julie

[unpossibles]

152. well, I am a few years older than my wife

so I guess it's time to play the waiting game.... :D

[NewJeffCT]

73. good point

My ex-wife was like that a bit - she had an extremely high sex drive, and wouldn't take me being tired as an excuse for not putting out for her. (Even though I had just driven for 4 hours to see her on the weekend after working 55-60 hours during the week...) I mean, I'd literally get out of the car, walk inside and she'd jump on top of me and expect me to start performing. There were even times where she told me she would try to have sex with me while I was sleeping (because men can get aroused in their sleep...)

The odd thing was, after we got married and she moved into my house, it was like a light switch went off in her head and she went from sex machine to nun almost overnight... Meanwhile, because I didn't have to drive such a long ways to see her all the time, I was actually "ready to go" more often, only to be rebuffed all the time. And, to be honest, since she had taken the lead with sex all the time before, I didn't really know how to really initiate sex with her.

Needless to say, our marriage did not last, though I never strayed until she officially filed for divorce.

[shimmergal]

115. Marriage does have that effect on some people,

perhaps because it turns sex into an expectation, or obligation. Not trying to make excuses for your ex, just noting that maybe the "institution" deserves a little blame too.

[NewJeffCT]

118. It didn't happen that way with me

Before we got married was when I drove 4 hours to see her on the weekends after working 55-60 hours during the week, and then was expected to perform...

After we got married was a whole different story.

[NMDemDist2]

26. I think there hasn't been enough research on female sexual dysfunction

men have a bunch of options, pills, pumps and whatever but if a woman is having trouble in that area there is no where to turn.

the 'professionals' just say "Give it up sweetie, you'll like it, we promise" and ignore the complaints of discomfort or pain.



x(

[Connonym]

30. and Viagra is legal even in places where vibrators aren't

great logic in that :eyes:

[AwakeAtLast]

70. And paid for by insurance!!!!

BC pills are not! :grr:

[gravity]

31. Here's the problem in a nutshell

[BlueIris]

34. And there's definitely not been enough research into the kind of "female" sexual dysfunction

that is caused by incompetent, insensitive or woman-hating male "partners." If men could learn to relate to women as anything more than glory-holes, we wouldn't have the massive relationship and sexual dysfunction that we have in this world now.

[noamnety]

42. ha, I would have put the quotes elsewhere

female sexual "dysfunction" - as if a woman not wanting to have sex is a medical problem that requires treatment.

Pain, soreness, all that, yes. A medical problem.

Not wanting a penis in her body, despite a man wanting to put it there? Why is that something requiring a trip to the doctor? And why is it the woman who needs to make that trip?

[treestar]

108. Society might benefit from the concept that HE needs to make the

trip to the MD and get the pill that will calm HIM down.

Just shows how male-centered our society is that nobody ever even thinks of it!

[supernova]

44. Female sexual dysfunction...Here's the thing.

How much if it is real disfunction (something genuinely wrong medically or psychologically) and how much of it is you're stuck with a clumsy lover who can't be bothered to learn what pleases you? Or as in my case, screams at you for merely mentioning it. And some of it is ignorance. Some women aren't even aware what would please them, so how can they realay that to their men in a caring way?

[BlueIris]

32. Just another example of the way men in our society are taught to view women, especially wives,

as objects to masturbate with and little more. This opinion piece, which works harder to justify misogyny and Patriarchy than anything I've read around here in a while, is a cringe-worthy illustration of how broken our world is--and how easy it is for men to rationalize said brokenness. Vile.

[gollygee]

37. How about "love and attention or she is your ex"

Someday someone will write an article about men who come home from work, sit in front of the TV, expect their dinner to be handed to them, expect their dishes to be cleaned up after them, expect the house to be clean before bed, and then when the exhausted wife goes to bed expect her to feel romanced and ready for sex rather than tired and ready for sleep, and how unfair that is to the wives.

(And no, my husband isn't like that - he's a sweetie - and he wouldn't have written that asinine Op-Ed in the OP either)

[supernova]

39. The title is cloddish

and indeed reminiscent of those 50's guides for housewives.

But it does make a good basic point about men: Sex is very important to them, moreso than we like to admit sometimes.

However, she doesn't go into the discussion about why sex gets pushed down on the list for women. And a large part of it is stress and too much to do during the day. Men seem to be able to shrug off stressors that happen during the day; we seem to accumulate them: The bank teller who gave us shitty service; the 3 yo didn't want to eat his lunch and pitched a fit; the interview I had started 30 minutes late. Oh, and I came home did the dishes, put them away, and did the vaccuuming, put away the toys, etc. Perhaps I also went to school too. Can you not see why I might be harried, burned out even, by the time we meet up?

What does irritate by its abscence (that's all it is; I'm not giving her any more credit than she deserves) is the idea that women don't have sex drives or wouldn't enjoy sex too. When I was married, one of my favorite parts of the day was come home from work sex. Best attitude adjustment ever. 'Course, the housework left something to be desired. And we didn't always have sit down supper. But pristine housekeeping wasn't my goal. Spending time with my husband was. But I suppose I might be one of the rare women who also enjoys sex as stress relief.

If men want sex as much as they acknowledge by general agreement with this article, then help us think of ways to alleviate the demands on us so that we are ready and relaxed enough to spend time with you. There is the old joke that nothing says "I love you" like a clean kitchen, but it's funny because it's true. This same scenario is played out in that Guiness ad that was posted recently. It was sadly funny and painfully obvious that the one guy doing all the housework felt very neglected and dismissed as a person.

Some ideas:

Frankly, if you both work, make good money, and you expect a pristine house, consider hiring help. Even having someone come in once a week can be a big help. That can cut way down on the squabbles about who does what and how much. I know I would. Again this leaves more time to think about and have sex.

If you have to go out and won't be home when I get home: leave me a glass of wine out on the counter and leave a note saying: I'll be back before you finish this, or whatever is appropriate.

The other thing is, as MissMillie noted, sex for us starts hours before: A hug. A shoulder rub. A pat on the back. Holding hands. A kiss. Nonsexual touch counts too. Mightily. That way I carry all those warm gooey feelings ( :P ) for you as we go our seperate ways for the day. This, just like the male sex drive, isn't an inordinate need. It simply is. And we need to find ways to accomodate both.

edit: I would also add that I was married to someone who didn't really understand when I tried to show him what I liked or what pleased me sexually. Quite the opposite. He was mightily offended. We're all different. If we want to show you a little somthin somthin, watch and learn. }( }(

[Dora]

40. It's about communicating, honesty, and trust.

I trust my husband will communicate his needs to me, and I will communicate my needs to him. If our needs don't match - Do I need to sleep? Does he need to dance? - we have to negotiate it from there. It demands compromising from both partners.

It should never be about subverting my needs in order to accomodate his - neither is he expected to deny his needs/desires.

It's called a marriage. We knew that we would be expected to work it out. And we do.

It's a shame that so many see it as His v. Hers.

I love my husband. Even when I'm tired. If I knew I was going to be parted from him - I don't think I'd be spending my time sleeping, if you know what I mean.

Love demands action.

[Elidor]

51. I must be from another planet

I'm a man. In my world, my long-term live-in (female) significant other demanded sex all the time. And if she didn't get it, there was usually an ugly scene. My friends thought it was funny that I was getting fucked to death by a beautiful woman, but anytime one partner, male or female, thinks they are entitled to sex-on-demand, there is an ugly undertone to the relationship. It's not just men who are pushy and demanding. In fact, on those rare occasions when she turned me down, I had no problem with it other than minor disappointment.

To suggest that women better put out whenever the guy wants it or their marriage will be in jeopardy is ridiculous. It's bullshit. Why should one partner's desires be more important than the other's? That's not a sound relationship: it's fucking servitude. I wouldn't wish it on a dog.

[noamnety]

55. Thank you.

It's stereotypically the other way around, but yes, it does go both ways. And the issue should not be "each partner has an equal right to get their wish" - when that wish includes coercing someone into unwanted sex. That's not something that should be negotiated.

Your language pretty accurately describes the reactions of women trying to sort out after the fact whether something was or wasn't rape, when they had sex against their will, to avoid an ugly conflict or because of coercion.

[dropkickpa]

126. Exactly

it's the disharmony of drives. One of the best ways to try to remedy it is to talk about it and figure out where that disharmony comes from and try to see what can be done to synch up more. Of course, this is an impossible conversation with many people, as soo many are reluctant to actually speak of something so mentally and emotionally intimate. And, sometimes, there is no solution, and bitterness shouldn't be the result of this, but it so often is.

Americans seem to have no problem with physical intimacy, but mental and emotional for some reason are almost taboo.

[DFW]

53. May I never be.......

an "ex."

[SarahB]

54. I don't disagree with this.

I also am a woman to communicate my needs well to my partner be it what I need sexually or in terms of more help around the house so we're a total partnership and I have the time and energy for for sex. Men are more like switches (on and off). Women usually need more warm up time. Men aren't always rocket scientists about this either. Remind them of this (frequently if need be) and if they want some, they'll do what they need to do. Unless of course, the guy's a total ass, then he needs to hit the door. Some men I've run into (especially when I was young) were intimidated by my bluntness, but I expect a partner and I expect a man to put in some effort- be it in the kitchen, cleaning, laundry, and yes, in the bedroom. In my experience, everyone ends up happy (if not a little tired :P).

[DS1]

58. Sarahbelle doesn't care about black people

:eyes:


;-)

[SarahB]

60. I'm a terrible person.

I know. :D

[krispos42]

61. Hmmm... so that's why I didn't follow sports or make a lot of $$$ while married

And since the separation, that's why I make politics and the DU my 'sport'.



Arrrgh! I need a girlfriend!!!!!

:banghead:

[Yavin4]

63. Men Who Get Married Thinking That It'll Be Constant Sex All of the Time...

are probably the ones that get disappointed the most by what actually happens in marriage. A lot of men, esp. highly religious men, go into marriage thinking that it will be constant sex all of the time, and then they're bitterly disappointed.

[Fleshdancer]

64. the comments in the link are just so sad

I read this thread before clicking on the link to finish the entire editorial. Then I noticed a "comments" section and my IQ dropped a few points reading through some of the responses.

Mostly it's "great article! I can't wait to show it to my girlfriend!" (soon to be ex-girlfriend would be my guess) Then there's the gross "I'll save this article and hand it to my sons when they get older." Um, ok...what does that conversation sound like exactly? "Hi Timmy and Billy, here's a little article that will tell you how your wives better be a lady in the living room and a whore in the bedroom."

:wtf:

[NewJeffCT]

67. and, it's from Canada, too

Isn't the Globe & Mail in Toronto... meaning, those types of comments aren't exclusive to Americans and/or Freepers.

[Ellen Forradalom]

65. It works the other way too.

I, a woman in my prime, found myself begging my soon-to-be-ex husband for attention. If you don't recognize your wife as the goddess she is, you're just as likely to be shown the door.

[LostInAnomie]

71. The only thing that Dr. Phil has ever said that made any sense...

... is that if you are in a relationship with a good sex life sex is only a 10% concern. If on the other hand, you are in a relationship with a poor sex life it is a 90% concern.

From my experiences as a male, this is absolutely true.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

79. I'm a woman

and I believe that a good satisfying sex life for both partners is a good 70% of a marriage or other committed relationship. I was actually talking to a friend whose sex life has gone down the drain since marriage. His wife was raised very strictly and religious. He asked her about the sudden lack of intimacy and she said something along the lines of "Now I have you, I don't need to do all that." Obviously, my friend was let down by that.

The point is, sex should not be a chore and should not be a carrot held in front to get someone to marry you. It should be a pleasurable and equally shared experience between two committed people. If either one of the people is lacking this important component, then there's a problem. Of course, some couples substitute the lack of sex with other things or hobbies. But for many couples, the lack of sex and intimacy has nothing to do with the attention/foreplay/household chores.

[SarahB]

93. You said it all more eloquently than I did.

It's something you experience together, not a method to divide a couple, and if someone has a problem, those who care about their partner do something about it for the good of the relationship. For lack about compatibility of "how much", compromise is a couple's friend.

[madinmaryland]

80. Its called a sympathy fuck!

She doesn't want you going blind!!1!!

[Wetzelbill]

151. So that's how that works

:)

[Elidor]

90. The Penis is evil.

"The penis shoots seeds, and makes new life, and poisons the earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the gun shoots death, and purifies the earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth and kill!"

(Can't believe I didn't see that one earlier.)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

92. What a moronic piece of shit op-ed.

Hey you sir, you horny bastard: Did it ever fucking occur to you that women have serious sexual needs as well? And yet when we ask for it, suddenly we're whores or "loose" or untrustworthy.

Many of us women try our damndest to think once in a while with the brains in our heads. Maybe you, the permanent boner, could join us sometime up here....It's quite nice.

"If they don't feel like a man..."

Maybe they should try feeling like human beings instead of "men," and treat women the same way, not as animated sex toys.

[GirlinContempt]

121. I was written by a woman.

[GirlinContempt]

124. It

[NC_Nurse]

94. It's painful to be on either end of a sexual power struggle.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who use sex as a weapon in relationships because of it's power.

It's a quick way to ruin a marriage. That's for sure.

[noamnety]

97. I hate that phrase

"sex as a weapon"

as if a woman's (or man's) lack of putting out when she doesn't want to is "an assault" on another person.

[NC_Nurse]

98. For some it is used to hold power over the other.

Of course that is not always the case.

On edit: Who said it was the person "not putting out" that was doing it? It can be either or both people using sex or
lack thereof to hurt the other.

[noamnety]

100. thoughts on holding power and coercion

a person has the right to say no, whenever and for whatever reason they want. refusing to allow another person access to your body is not "holding power" over another person; it's holding power over your own body.

Refusal to allow another person to coerce you into having sex is NEVER a "weapon" and that sort of language to describe that situation is harmful to women's rights and women's safety.

Sex can only be a weapon when it is forced onto an unwilling person, not when it is not agreed to by an unwilling participant - even IF the reason is that they are angry because a spouse didn't do dishes, even IF they are angry because the spouse spent money on something. Being angry is enough reason on its own to not WANT to have sex. Not WANTING to have sex is not a weapon.

Anyone using language to imply "she attacked me" by not letting me have sex with her - no matter what other circumstances are present in the relationship - has some cultural baggage to unpack.

[Withywindle]

101. You really don't see how sexual rejection could be deliberately used to hurt someone?

Of course that's not what not wanting to have sex usually means, it's usually just that.

But OF COURSE sometimes people (men too!) reject a lover's advances as a way of hurting them or getting back at them for something. I'm not proud of it, but I've done it myself!

I don't do it often, though. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! :evilgrin:

[bicentennial_baby]

109. No, she doesn't, trust me...

:eyes:

[Withywindle]

112. Weird.

I've had it done to me, too. It's a very effective weapon. It can be nasty. And if it's chronic, it really wears you down.

[bicentennial_baby]

113. I understand...

But, some people are determined to see such things through a very particular lens, I suppose ;)

[Joe Fields]

102. you may hate the phrase, but it's true. Sex is used as a weapon all the time

Sex, the promise of, or the withholding of, is used many different ways. And not exclusive to either gender, but it most definitely is used as a weapon.

[treestar]

111. No one is entitled to sex from anyone else

so just being tired or not feeling like it is not "withholding" it is exercising a valid choice.

Just thinking of it as "withholding" reflects a controlling sense of entitlement.

[Triana]

136. EXACTLY what treestar said - NO ONE is "entitled" to sex...

..under ANY circumstance and refusal is exercising a CHOICE. If a man CHOOSES to consider that 'withholding' then he has an aggrandized sense of entitlement and is a control freak.

Narcissist, much, guys? Most narcs are men, so I'm not surprised to see this "entitled" attitude from them. And frankly, it IS abusive and disgusting.


NOT sex, but the male attitude that they are somehow "entitled" to it and that lording it over their partner that if she doesn't capitulate AT ALL TIMES NO MATTER WHAT, he'll "get it somewhere else". THAT is controlling behavior.


I say fine. LET HIM GO. Change the locks on the doors, make him get tested for STDs and / or never allow his slimey hands on ya again, ladies.

Disgusting.

[philosophie_en_rose]

103. I agree. Sex is only a weapon, when coerced.

The article is laughable. "Give me sex, or else!" is hardly attractive. And it amounts to emotional blackmail.

I agree that sex is important in relationships, as is trust and mutual respect. However, people have the right to say 'no' for any reason. It's not an attack to say no. And if anyone believes that it is, then they have unfortunate entitlement issues.

[NC_Nurse]

105. If you are talking purely on a physical level, then yes

only physical coerced sex can be called a weapon. If you are considering psychological and emotional issues, then using witholding sex or
guilting or threatening someone emotionally into having sex must also be considered weapons.

The psyche is an important part of the human animal too. People play games on both sides of this issue, and women and men are equally
involved.

I think part of the problem is a culture that is obsessed with sex and yet incredibly prudish and puritanical at the same time. Weird.

[Ellen Forradalom]

110. When it's withheld as a passive-aggressive gesture

It most certainly is a weapon.

[LostinVA]

143. THANK YOU -- best response in the whole damned thread

[LostinVA]

142. Jesus, who the hell kicked this thread???

[Starbucks Anarchist]

144. I think you did.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

145. ARRRGGHHH!!!

[SarahB]

146. Hey Matcom,

How do you feel about horny, lactating women?

:popcorn:

I can't believe this thread's still going. You outdid yourself. I wonder what GD's take would be. :rofl:

[Karenina]

150. HEY GIRLS!!! SPREAD 'EM when HE WANTS 'em spread

OR YOU'RE TOAST!!! (And deserve to be cuz you ain't paying attention to how HE'S been socialized). FUCK YOU or erraa.. I mean GET FUCKED or ummm... or FUCK IT; or not. Any way you look at it, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!!!