oh my god! the vikings

[madrchsod]

are attacking !!! now the dam Huns and Goths!! it`s those dam barbarians-history channel

[Astarho]

1. From the fury of the Northmen

O Lord, Deliver us.

Can't wait to see this one!

[Cleita]

2. Been watching.

It's pretty good I guess for a documentary. They could have used some movie guys to stage the battle scenes though. Way too phoney.

[bleedingheart]

3. Ah you didn't see the making of the barbarians that was on earlier

it was filmed in Lithuania (the land of my mother's people) with 80 cast members (didn't speak english)...and 4 americans.

I am disappointed because when they return from the commercials they waste time repeating stuff they already covered.

[bleedingheart]

4. Question about the Romans...

Was the Roman army so well outfitted? Everytime I see them depicted in any movie or docudrama they are so perfectly attired...all the way down to the foot soldiers... and somehow I just can't believe it...
but then it might be true....what archaeological evidence supports this image?

[Cleita]

5. I read that it depended on their leaders who paid them.

Like Julius Caesar's army was very well equipped and trained for instance. I assume that other aristocratic Romans with armies would have to keep up with the Jones's so to speak. A Roman soldier was dug up in Pompei and he was healthy, well fed and well equipped although at that time he had carpenter's tools on him. Apparently they were put to work building things when not at war.

[bleedingheart]

6. Thanks for the info

and yes you are right they were busy building things to keep those idle hands busy when not at war...

[happyslug]

7. Late Empire completly different Army from the Late Republic

And changed at least twice between Caesar and Justinian. Furthermore the equipment also went down hill in that time period. This was in addition to a decline in pay. There were no pay increase from the time of Augustus till the 3rd Century, even as the Emperors debased the currency so that by 200 AD the troops pay was worth less than a 1/3 of what it had been in 1 AD.

Augustus had moved the Legions from Italy to the Borders (Thus eliminated the cost of feeding the legions. This also removed the Legions far enough from Rome that the Legions could not overthrow the Emperor on a whim. The Legions seem to stay about the same till Severus (193-211) when a long slow decay set in (Mostly from the drop in pay during the pervious 200 years). By the Time of Constantine (306-337) the Roman army of the Frontier had become nothing more than local militia who very rarely moved from their bases. Diocletian had developed a new "Mobile" Army. This was divided into two parts, one based on Constantinople (after the Reign of Constantine) and the other in Milan. These were mobile and HORSE driven (From the Time of Trajan, the Roman army had moved from a Infantry based army to a more mobile horse based Army).

These "Mobile" Armies were the key to Roman Strength From about 300 AD till the Battle of Adrianople in 378 AD. With the Roman Defeat at Adrianople the Roman army had to be slowly rebuilt. It never was as strong as it had been prior to 378, and as the 400s went on it deteriorated even further. Till by 476 the Western Empire was using nothing but Barbarian mercenaries.

Now in the east a rapid rebuilt was done so that Constantinople could retake Italy in 530s (along with Southern Spain and modern Tunisian) but in the West it stayed bad till about 700 AD (With the raise of the Franks).

Now the above is what happen to the Military, we also have to understand how the base for recruiting also went down hill. In the 300s the Romans had reduced the minimal height of their Soldiers from 5'6" to 5'2". The Mail armor their wore started to be bent instead of woven together (In fact for many years it was believed that Romans did not use Mail, until examples of Mail Armor was found. The Reason for this belief was no small pieces of Mail was found in Roman Battlefields, but pieces were found in Dark Ages Battlefields. What happen is that During the Height of Rome the Romans interlocked their mail armor together so small pieces did NOT break off when hit. In the Dark Ages and the later Empire Mail stopped being interlocked and became more bent into each other. This was cheaper to make, but broke off in battle. Example of the General Deterioration of Roman Equipment from 200-500 AD.)

For a Work on the Late Roman Empire:
http://www.pillowrock.com/ronnie/romanarmy.htm

For a list of Roman Emperors:
http://www.roman-emperors.org/

Now in the Hobby stores there are some nice short and accurate books on the Roman Army at various time in History. Most of these books are written by and for War gamers (and generally out of Britain). They are the best source for information for these War Gamers are more worried about HOW the Army fought than explaining why Rome fell (through they are inter-related). My point is the war-gamers tend to be less ideological about why Rome Fell than other writers.

Also one of the Comments about the late Roman Empire is the raise of what we would call the Armored Knight. The Full Armored Knight only developed twice in history, 300-700 AD and again 1300-1500. Both developed during a period of severe internal problems. The Armored Knight is effective against untrained peasants, against trained troops it is less effective. (The Armor to protect the Knight is to heavy for the Knight to operate independent of the Horse, but if the horse is given similar armor the weight is to much for the horse. Thus against trained troops who are trained to kill the horse first, the Armored Knights are a minor problem (and not worth the expense, regular Calvary is more effective). On the other hand, untrained peasants do not know that the best way to kill the knight is kill the horse first. Such untrained peasants try to kill the rider whose armor protects them, so that the Knights have time to kill the peasants first. It is interesting that the Fully Armored Knight appear when outside wars are rare (300-400 AD and 1300-1500) but peasant revolts are common. It is further interesting such knights tend to disappear whenever a real army appears (The Arabs in the 600s and the religious wars of the 1500s).

Thus in the 400s, the Roman Armored Knight was well equiped, but his infrantry may have a shield a sword and a Pike (i.e. little or no personal armor). Some Troops did retain such equipment but it was rare and as it wore out not replaced. The Short swords of the Roman Legion (used from From the time of Scipio onward), had disappeared with the lost of body Armor in the 300s. This was replaced by a Round Shield, the Pike and the Long Sword. In the late Empire Infrantry rarely won battles, it was Calvary that was the perferred arm (see above about the Armored knights).


My Two favorite comment on the invasion of the Barbarians are the following:

1. Except for the Vandals, NO Barbarian group settled in the West without first being defeated by the "Roman" Army (and than settled on lands where peasants have been in revolt).

2. In the 430s, after the death of Attila the Hun, Rome was on the March, did it go after the Goths in Southern Gaul? After the Franks in Northern Gaul? After the Barbarians in Central Gaul? After the Vandals in Spain and later modern Tunisian? No, they went after the peasants in revolt in Modern Brittany. Later on when the Leadership of Roman Britain wanted to escape from the invading Anglo-Saxons, the Romans moved them to Brittany (thus its post-Roman name). Why where they moved into Brittany? To put down the peasants in revolt.

Rome’s main concern during the 400s was to keep the peasants down. All Rome needed to do to stop the Barbarians was to armed and train the Peasants. The problem if you arm Peasants you have to give them something to fight for and the only thing the peasants would fight for would be land. The Roman Leadership had since the Time of the Grachia (162-123 BC) REFUSED to do land reform, they preferred Barbarian rule than giving up their estates. When Justinian invaded Africa and Italy in the 530s it was do to proposed land reforms by the Ruling Goths. The Romans asked Justinian to end such land reforms and he did by his invasions. Do not worry, the Lombards invaded Italy in the 570s. They brought with them land reforms and thus made their conquest of Northern Italy both easy and quick (Some Historians believe the Lombards had been invited in by Romans who finally knew land reform was needed, but could only be done by the Barbarians, thus the speed of the Lombard Invasion of the 570s).

[happyslug]

9. Some details

The first "Roman" Army we have any records of (and these are mostly legends) appears to be a light calvary based units (Which lead to the raise of the Equestrian class of the Roman Republic and Empire). With the overthrow of the Kings of Rome and establishment of the Republic (about 500BC) Rome became to depend more on its Infantry than its light Calvary (Through Light Calvary would stay under the control of the Equestrian Class till the fall of the Empire, and since the first foreign mercenaries was also Light Calvary, foreign Auxiliaries would stay under Equestrian control till the fall of the Empire).

With the start of the Republic Rome’s strength was its legions. Every Roman Male Citizen had to serve 16 years in the Army. Thus provided vast numbers of men for its various wars for unlike other City-states, Rome expanded its citizenship base to anyone who wanted to be Roman. Thus with the end of the Second Punic War (202 BC), Rome could field larger and better equipped armies than anyone else in the known World. In fact Rome was so powerful it could attack Spain, Gaul and Macedonia all at the same time.

This was the height of the Roman Army, it had one fatal problem, the problem of all Draftee armies, they are very good armies if their believe in the fight, but one of the worse armies if they do not. For Example in the Third Punic War (146-149 BC) the Roman people did not support the war, and neither did the Roman Army. It shown in how the Roman Army fought. After wards it was increasingly difficult to raise troops. Not that the Roman Citizens No longer wanted to fight, but why fight a war whose benefits went to the upper classes? This at the time when proposals for Land Reform were being denied (Even through the proposals were nothing more then enforce Existing Roman Law). The Roman elites like going to war for as the commanders of the Legions they were able to keep any Gold and Silver and sell any Slaves (While the poor infantryman received nothing, not even pay).

The above lead to a Crisis, people would serve in any Army to change Rome’s economic but not to enrich Rome’s elite. To solve this problem Marius (c90BC) decided to pay the legionaries he raised. This solve the problem of recruitment but meant that all of the Roman Armies after him would be hired mercenaries NOT armies of the Roman People. Furthermore these Armies were paid by their Commanders (The Ducus of the Legion) NOT the Roman state and were Loyal to those Commanders Not the Roman State. This lead to the Civil wars of the late Republic. Caesar won the wars not only with the help of his legions, but with the remains of the older Roman Military Tradition (Which he was able to control through he being the Nephew of Marius AND being Popius Maximus i.e. Chief Priest of Rome).

With Augustus the Roman Army changed again, this time a reduction from 67 active legions to 29 and a movement of the Legions from Italy to the Frontiers. He further made himself “Ducus” of each Legion with actual command of each legion reserved to hi “Legate” i.e. Lieutenant. With Nero you saw every Emperor debasing the Currency to raise more revenue (and inflation) while keeping the Legionaries pay constant. Trajan (c118 AD) saw an expansion of the Roman Legions to 30 legions (which is why we know Augustus had reduced them to 29, and remained 29 till the rule of Trajan). Trajan is believe to introduce the first Heavy Calvary units into the Roman Army, but except for the introduction of Heavy Calvary no great Change till the Time of Severus (212 AD), through inflation continued and still no land reform (i.e. the Empire consisted of large estates owned by the social elites while the estates themselves were run by slaves. At the Same time the now landless Roman poor migrated to Rome and lived off the increasing amount of Welfare given by the Roman State. Such payments were cheaper than given them power or land)..

In the 200s three things happen that almost saw Rome Fall, first was the raise of the Goths and Persians. From the time Scipio (202 BC) till 200 AD no country could challenge Roman might. With the Raise of the Goths (in present day Germany and Poland) and the re-establishment of the Persian Empire the situation changed. Rome was now facing two Enemies capable of Fighting Rome to a standstill. Rome had to expand its army. Rome had two ways to do it, first was to return to the Late Roman Republic Militia based Army (But that would require giving peasants something to fight for i.e. land, and land was the last thing the Roman Elites wanted to give up) or Second increase the size of the Mercenary army no matter the cost in taxation. Rome decided on the later, increasing its taxes and further debasing its currency.

The Second problem was related to the first, two widespread revolts that almost overthrew Roman Rule, the cost to repress them lead to increased taxes and inflation. The Third problem was the increase Taxes, inflation and bureaucracy to collect the Taxes (Increase further as the taxes started to be collected in kind not in money i.e. taxes paid in wheat not silver). These three problems lead to increase internal revolts among the peasants (Further Complicated by the fact that the Raise of the Goths and Persians had cut off most sources of slaves so Roman started to use increase numbers of its landless peasants and slowly converted them to serfdom so common during the Middle Ages).

The Inflation caused by the debasing of the Currency continued through the 200s, the currency was stabilized about 197 AD in a war where the Persian Capital was taken and the gold and silver from that prize was used to stabilize the Currancy for a Generation. The problem is the inflation returned within 20 years. Finally Diocletian (c300 AD) realized what the problem was and tried to solve the problem. He invented the concept of the Annual Budget and the long term budget (one year and 15 year long respectfully) and tried to withdraw all of the old debased currencies (But never had enough Gold and Silver to do so). Diocletian further expanded Rome’s Horse based Mobile Armies at the expense of its Traditional Legions (Leaving the Legions become border Militia while the new Mobile and horse Based Army became the key to Roman Power).

Constantine continued the Reforms of Diocletian (In fact Constantine’s conversion to Christianity can be seen as his way to get the needed gold and silver to withdraw all the bad debased currency. The Temples he took over and converted to Churches were the richest Temples, i.e. the Christian received the Building, the Idols went to Constantine who melted them down and made coins out of them). Constantine also separated Senate Rule from the Army. Prior to Diocletian Roman Legions were not only commanded by a Roman Senator but various positions in the Legions were also Reserved to Senators. In their reform the Legions were cut in smaller units commanded by Non-Senators. What the Empire lost in flexibility (i.e. the ability to send 1 or 2 or 3 legions to fight) the Emperor gained in Control.

Now Julius the Apostate seem to have wanted to undo the Christianization of the Roman Empire, but his plan was to take over the Capital of Persia and use the Gold and Silver from taking that City to re-establish the Pagan Temples. The problem is that the Plan had Worked for Serverus in 197 AD only because the Persian Ruler was occupied elsewhere. In the time of Julius the Persian Ruler only had to worry about Julius and thus defeated his army piecemeal (i.e. Guerilla tactics that force Julius to retreat and in that retreat Julius died in Battle).

With the Defeat of Julius, all of the expense of his campaign against the Persians came home to roost (Without any compensatory loot since the war had failed). This opened up the Empire to an invasion of the Goths who cross the border and looted the Empire. In was during this raid that the Battle of Adrianople occurred in which 2/3 of the Roman Army was destroyed. From that time forward the Empire increasing used Germans instead of its own troops and used Calvary instead of Infantry. Deterioation of Equipment became even worse after Adrianople and did not recover till the 500s (during Justinian rule). As to Troops, pay stayed poor till the time of Heraclius (610 - 641 A.D.) who reformed the Army and tied membership in the Roman Army with land ownership This stayed the practice in the East till the Battle of Mazakurt in 1054 AD (another destruction of a 60,000 man Roman Army).

[Thor_MN]

8. Hey, I heard that!!

Now if I only knew where there was a village ripe for plunder. Not really into the whole rape and pillage thing, I tend to specialize in plunder.

[AngryAmish]

10. Time for the viking kittens

http://www.public.asu.edu/~mharp/viking_kittens/VikingKitten.htm">Viking Kittens