A Star Wars Revelation

[Sophree]

So I was watching Attack of the Clones the other night (for about the 20th time) and I had this thought about Jango and Boba Fett. This probably is not such a revelation to other Star Wars fans, but anyway...

Jango Fett is a badass bounty hunter, with near-Jedi instincts and fighting capabilities. The cloner mentions to Obi-Wan Kenobi that it was strange that Jango Fett wanted only one thing (besides the large salary he is paid)- to have an exact, unaltered clone of himself. I always wondered, why would they include that line?

Anakin was almost too old to receive Jedi training before Obi-Wan found him. What if Jango was born with Jedi capabilities, but was never discovered? Or discovered by Count Dooku much too late in life to become a full-on Jedi? He uses technology to make up for what he lacks in Jedi training, and he is always reaching for a light sabre.

So, he's made a deal with the devil, so to speak, to have his cloned son trained in the dark arts by Count Dooku and/or Palpatine/Darth Sidious, to have the chance that he missed.

And then the dual storyline of Anakin/Luke and Jango/Boba makes sense. Boba even lifts Jango's helmetted head and the end of Clones, much like Luke lifts the helmet off Darth Vader's head at the end of ROTJ. Boba is formed by the loss of his father as much as Anakin is formed by the loss of his mother.

[DrWeird]

1. Yeah, but in the end...

Boba just goes out like a chump.

[Sophree]

6. I guess that's the difference

Between choosing the dark side over the light side? :shrug:

[David Dunham]

2. But Anakin Is the Character Who Becomes Darth Vader

[Sophree]

5. Right, I know.

And Luke lifts his helmet off at the end of ROTJ, just like Boba lifts Jango's decapitated head w/ helmet. I was just thinking about the parallel storylines, is all.

[Kamika]

3. He just wanted a son/partner

he wanted a partner he could trust.. only way would be to form a family

[7th_Sephiroth]

4. that, and wouldent you like

a Mini-me?

[Sophree]

7. Right, that's implied.

But why would Lucas go out of the way to iterate that it was a "strange" request. It always seemed like there was something more to that, and this theory just kinda hit me the other night. Could be wrong.

[jimbo fett]

34. I just thought it was Jango's attempt for immortality through bloodline.

[Sophree]

36. It's that, too.

But I think that is implied as well- I just always had the feeling there was something more there. Satisfaction of the human desire for immortality, as well as fulfillment of potential greatness not quite achieved by the parent seems to make sense.

[Robb]

8. What's a "Star Wars"?

:evilgrin:

[moof]

9. do you wish to keep discovering the film yourself?

Because you are missing a possibly large detail from the movie regarding the scene you mention here.

Do you want to discover it yourself, or do you want a heads up ?

[Kamika]

10. SAY IT

I want to know

[Rabrrrrrr]

12. Boba is Annakin!

Or the other way around. Either way, it's really Han who is the Christ figure, and Leia symbolizes Sophia, goddess of wisdom, though in Lucas' neo-mythological extension of these pre-rational ideas, Sophia, in these movies, has been previously mated with Nature.

Luke is Leviathan (the embodiment of pre-Creation Chaos), and Yoda symbolizes man's inhumanity to man.

So as you can see, then, it becomes obvious (even without taking into consideraton the Dooku/Sandworm meme) that the lightsabers are actually metaphores for life/consciousness/individuation itself, and what Lucas is really telling us is that the pursuit of entertainment is a shallow, hubris-filled dream that leads only to one's own eternal Sissiphian hell of attempting to communicate by hopelessly moving block after block of textwords while withstanding the juggernaut of communal-consciousness loss of individuation at the hands of an oppressive, paternalistic society that has long ago abandoned our deep connection with the soul/energy of the universe, which is the dream-state as known in the Garden itself. And Boba is that embodiment when taken in context, though the mantle is passed to another in a moment that symbiolizes both our future change as human beings, but also sets the story along so that this mantle can be passed to another since change is its essential essence.

I thought it was pretty obvious, even before Episode II. But then, I'm awfully clever.

[Robb]

13. I think maybe

...one of your "r"s is on too tight. ;)


Dooku/Sandworm meme, indeed.

[Kamika]

14. heh

You're even weirder then I am

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. I've had a few more years of practice

:hi:

thanks!!

[Sophree]

22. Whoa!

That's a lot to take in.

Sorry if I'm being dense, are you saying that Boba and Annakin both represent humankind's separation from God due to our collective preoccupation with satisfying our shallow and selfish desires?

How could Han be the Christ figure? He seems much too concerned with himself and seems to play the reluctant hero.

"I thought it was pretty obvious, even before Episode II. But then, I'm awfully clever." Yes, I believe you are. ;-)

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. No, Boba and Annakin represent the annihilation of the soul

and disaffectation toward community that is inherent in a society that disassociates itself - or more rightly, forces the separation of - those who are inable or choose not to embrace the communal mythology (it's an obvious reference to the Students Against Hitler in a typically erroneous Lucasian homage to Leni Riefenstahl) which in this case is exemplified by both Boba and Annakin, and also noted oblilquely in a few other instances: In Episode IV, the man in the cantina whom Obi Wan (himself representative of the romantic/poet ala Pan) cut the arm off, the Mynocks in Episode V (representing Lucas' blatant disregard for the peasant class and obsession with his own phallus), and the Ewoks in Episode VI, which, though they help in the liberation, will not enjoy any of its spoils other than being expected to provide all the resources for the final party (again, representative of something from Chinese Mythology, which even in our culture is so embedded into the human psyche that it resonates with us, driving us forward, and within which we findmeaning, but also find it within ourselves to easily determine sacrificial victims for the sake of our society (cf. Girard's "Violence and the Sacred" to understand the Ewok/Mynok meme)). And it is within that that the Christ figure is able to work, and thus in this instance, it is Han. Though in Episodes I and II, one can see easily that the Christ figure is absent. Hence the inability of the republic to function, because Lucas is saying that without a solid foundation in the sacrifical victim/lamb/etc. icon, a society sits on nothing except a search for more violence. Hence the clone wars, and more epsecially, hence the obvious references to Set-based reliogiosity in the moisture farmers of Tattoine.

That's what I meant.

Girard's book here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801822181/qid=1074703672/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-7014635-4806530?v=glance&s=books

[Sophree]

32. ok

"and disaffectation toward community that is inherent in a society that disassociates itself - or more rightly, forces the separation of - those who are inable or choose not to embrace the communal mythology"

I do see that.

And Obi-Wan even looks like a goat, now that you mention it.

I'll have to read the Girard book to better understand the Han as Christ thing, but it looks interesting. I always thought of Luke as the Christ figure.

"Hence the inability of the republic to function, because Lucas is saying that without a solid foundation in the sacrifical victim/lamb/etc. icon, a society sits on nothing except a search for more violence. Hence the clone wars, and more epsecially, hence the obvious references to Set-based reliogiosity in the moisture farmers of Tattoine."

What about the machinations of the Emperor? Is he exploiting the absence of this sacrificial lamb and propensity toward violence?

I had to look up Set religion, but I think that I had the right idea.

Set, in Egyptian religion


or Seth (both: st or st) (KEY) , in Egyptian religion, god of evil. Set was a sun god of predynastic Egypt, but he gradually degenerated from being a beneficent deity into being a god of evil and darkness. In a widespread Egyptian myth he murdered his brother Osiris and was in turn defeated by Horus, the son of Osiris. The Greeks identified Set with Typhon.

So, basically, without a sacrificial lamb, we're all destined to murder our brother and fall from grace into darkness, and then be murdered ourselves in revenge? Continuing the cycle of violence...

[Rabrrrrrr]

38. And it all ties in with the Dooku/Sandworm meme I mentioned

in my first analysis. Explore that, along with Amidala (amadalla? How's that spelled?) representing the human-reincarnation of Osiris, that is - a goddess, but not fully; the second conjunction (Dooku being the first) of the Divine with the Mortal - and all will become plain as day, I think. Lucas is a genius - not a single character, not a single word, not even a single prop, exists without purpose and without reference to symbolic/primal memory held deep within the human collective psyche - he's actually releasing for us long-held memories that are so deep as be thought lost, but as he proves, they are not, and from that, we have the possibility, if we listen, to be saved - once Episode III comes out - from our own hubris and constant negation of death/life instead of embracing the yin/yang cyclic dichotomy. And ILM will be shown to be the pointer to the New Jerusalem (or Shangri-La, or Xanadu, for whatever the name, they represent the same symbol - which is a state of bliss).

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Oh - missed your Emperor question

The Emperor, of course, simply represents the ultimate end-result of desire without ethical/moral framework. Sort of like Narcissus, but instead of the Emperor staring at his reflection in the water and losing his life, the Emperor instead reshapes reality to conform to his image so that he doesn't waste his life with a mirror, but makes the entire galaxy his mirror.

[Sophree]

43. OK, that makes sense.

"Makes the entire galaxy his mirror." That's a really good way to describe it.

One more question- what about Yoda? How is he representative of "man's inhumanity to man?"

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. Thanks!

I actually kind like what I said about the Emperor there - I think there's some truth in it.

Yoda represents what he does because he is the figure of eternity - he is 900 years old, that is, 9 * 100, 100 being a number meaning 'ancient', and 9, which is 3*3, which is to say, a trinity of trinities, or "extra holy" - that is, Yoda is only said to be 900 years old in order to set up the symbology that we, the human viewer, need, when in reality, Yoda is the unborn divine incarnation of violence: he has always existed, as has human violence. And what is more constant or eternal than war and strife in human history? Thus, it is essential that, before the redemption of Darth Vader/Annakin, Yoda must die - that is, war and strife itself must die, that all life be reborn into peace and harmony, and regain our initial state of pre-fruit-eating innocence. But that's only in theory - for what Lucas has done, is show us that peace and harmony do not rein or begin, telling us not to put our hope in a salvific figure, but to adjust our own lives in the here and now.


I have to tell you, though, Sophree, because I'm no longer sure if you are gaming me or not and I don't want to lead you on any more, but I'm making a lot of this stuff up. Your first replies to my posts made me think you were on to me but now I'm not so sure. If you're not gaming me, then I will stop, and apologize, and I hope no harm done. If you want me to continue, I'm happy to do so. :-)

Not there are aren't things in it that are worthy of further thought: I am especially keen on my thoughts on the Emperor remodeling the galaxy into his image, which I think he is. And in Annakin we see a real fear of chaos and disorder - I don't think he's necessarily evil, but he DOES want order and surity in life (we heard him say that in Episode II to Amidalla when they were on the picnic; and again after he killed the Sand People).

Some of what I said in relation to Girard makes sense, and I do recommend that you read his book "Violence and the Sacred". It's a tough read, but worth going through because of his hypothesis that all human societies through all time are based on sacrifice of a scapegoat at the beginnging of each society, and that those sacrifices need continually to be made. Fascinating stuff. I don't always agree with him, but it's food for thought, and I'd like to read more of his stuff to get a better for feel for it. I don't know if Lucas ever read Girard, but I would doubt it: he's definitely into Campbell and some others.

But some of the stuff I said - Dooku/Sandworm meme, Set-based religiosity of the moisture farmers, han as Christ figure, I was just being extreme in my attempt to deconstruct ad infinitum as extremely as possible in order to emulate those who think too much.

Sorry if I've screwed you over.

[moof]

46. Formal Protest

We here at the moof hut wish to object in the strongest possible term to the use of the term " think " in the next to last sentence in the previous reply.


It seems not a lot to ask, that people who are prone
to have such cavalier attitudes in their selection of words,
should, to the best of their ability, attempt to use less of them.

[jimbo fett]

11. School us moof. I want to know.

[moof]

15. It's a factual error, but easy too miss.

only caught it the third or so viewing. As far as being big,
the conjecture that is being discussed here is interesting,
but beyond the very last sentence of the post
there does not seem to be any deeper meaning.

That said there is no way to guess how much difference the factual error makes to this particular tangent.

highlight below for possible spoiler
The head is not in the helmet. It can be seen flying out in the scene during the arena fight. Look for the shadow on the ground as the helmet goes one way while the head goes another.
------------------------------------------------

[Kamika]

16. hmm

what does that have to do with the scene where the alien says it was a strange request

[moof]

19. This is all Sophree's conjecture,

But from the post it seemed that there was an element that had
not yet been observed by Sophree and in the spirit of helping a
Jedi fan the information was offered in case it made a difference
to the line of thinking Sophree was pursuing.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. Yeah, other than that it means that Boba can have the helmet

without having to clean quite so much muck out of it, I don't think the fact that Jango's head (and I saw that, too) flew out is of any significance, especially not relation to the original post's question/pondering on the significance of stating that it was an odd request.

Though I guess we really have to not think logically or normally, but thingk through the lens of a hacnkeyed two-bit money-hungry writer like Lucas, so probably it will have significance.

I wonder if the stating that it was a strange request wasn't, perhaps, a device to show us that the cloners are basically money-hungry (much like Lucas!) and so it's so much them telling us, the viewer, that this is odd, but it's them telling us that they can't understand anything beyond the motivation of money. I'm not ready to claim that as my opinion, but it's something to think about.

[moof]

23. Sorry Rabrrrrrr, what was the question ?

Didn't see where you asked one for moof.

The only time it got busy was during all the lemur alerts last night.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. The question is: what does your hidden text post have to do

with Sophree's post, other than the obvious point that they both involve boba lifting up the helmet, but the question is what's the significance of it that you see.

[moof]

31. ahh ok

The last paragraph of Sophree's post that states,

"Boba even lifts Jango's helmetted head and the end of Clones,"

This is factually incorrect as Jango's head , or rather it's shadow is shown to have parted company with both Jango's helmet as well as his body.

As for the significance of it, there was no notice taken of any deeper symbolism than Jango's son now being alone & probably with no shortage of desire to join with anyone to help destroy the Jedi.

The intent of the reply was only to inform Sophree that the statement
was not correct & since this conjecture was working off the comparison of Luke seeing his face inside the darth helmet and Jango's clone seeing Jango's face inside that helmet it might make a difference if Jango's helmet was empty.

[Rabrrrrrr]

35. Ah, gotcha

I thought you were doing more than pointing out the factual error.

never mind, then. :-)

[Sophree]

29. Oh the Colluseum scene.

I thought you meant the cloner scene. No, I had not noticed that. It does make the shot less grotesque, but I have no idea what it means.

More preoccupation with the phallus (or loss of)? Rabrrrr?

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. Now that you've cut off two of my "r"s I am!

:evilgrin:

[Sophree]

33. LOL!

I'll have to work on that emasculation thing. Sorry.

[Sophree]

20. Do tell.

What am I missing?

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. Check post 15

Though sounds like Kamika, me, and you are all stumped as to the relevance of the info. I was hoping moof would have answered my question already... but then again, we DO have to expect that people will go do non-DU things. I don't understand why they would, but I affirm the need. :-)

:hi: Sophree!

[moof]

26. Question about a question alert, see above.

Sorry, posted the previous reply to the other Rabrrrrrr reply because that was where the investigation was taking place to detect the question that was mentioned in the Rabrrrrrr reply here.

This is not another trick,

unless you want it to be.

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. I'm still laughing about the lemur alert!

That just cracks me up. One of the cleverest things I've seen here.

[Sophree]

27. Why in the world would they want to go an do that?

"but then again, we DO have to expect that people will go do non-DU things."

:hi:

[ikojo]

37. Remember in the movie that Lama Su said

something was done to the clones to render them more docile (which I read to mean more obedient and willing to take any order). If this is what was done to the clones then Jango Fett probably wanted his clone to have every ounce of aggression possible.

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. And I just thought of a question - since all the stormtroopers are Jango

clones, I wonder two things:

1. Did Darth Vader know that Boba Fett is a clone of the same person the stormtroopers are cloned from? (I don't think this would be important - I was just interested in it)

and

2. Since Boba Fett is related to the stormtroopers, I wonder if he could have exercised any power of them? Boba seems never to be bothered by stormtroopers - but then again, he also doesn't get much screen time in Ep. IV-VI to establish a base for that conclusion.

It's just me, musing.

[Sophree]

41. Wouldn't Obi-Wan have told Anakin?

That they were clones of Boba? I think so.

It's possible Boba had power over the clones. He must have understood their every thought and motivation.

P.S. Thanks for the all the help with the mythology- I already have a better and deeper understanding of the story. Can't wait for Episode III.

:yourock:

[Blue_Chill]

40. Who cares Anakin is a sissy and boba never really matters

I was a big star wars junkie. Growing up my dad bought my the movies and I watched them too many times. I knew the lines almost by heart. When I found out a new star wars trilogy was coming out I was happy as can be. Until I saw the first two films.......

Film 1 - retarded character made to appeal to tiny children and sell action figures. Movie made too big a deal out of a race that had almost nothing to do with the plot, obviously made to thrill the audience with special effects.

Film 2 - The introduction of the sissy boy anakin, who according to prior knowledge will eventually become one of the baddest mofos in movie history. The kid can't act at all and when he 'loses control' he looks like a whiny brat instead of sinister and powerful.

The Jedi go from being mysterious and powerful, to being slaughtered by robots in some weird GI Joe scene. In the first series one watches Vader and Luke and you get the impression Jedi's are not to be screwed with. Then you watch the choreographed moves of the Jedi in the new series and realize they fight like ballet dancers and get owned by mass produced robots. Really disappointing.

[hunter]

44. R2D2 is the center of the Star Wars universe.

Duh...

R2D2 sees all.