Age Discrimination

[leftofthedial]

anyone ever encountered it in hiring?

[ThomCat]

1. As a consultant I've often observed hiring decisions

and I've seen what I thought was blatant age descrimination a number of times.

[leftofthedial]

5. what age is "age"?

[ThomCat]

14. Anyone in their 40s or older for non-executive jobs

and anyone in their 50s or older for upper management level jobs.

[leftofthedial]

18. I was a VP-level guy with start-ups

mid-level with a couple of big companies

I got zotzed at 45 and nothing of substance since, going on six years now.

[LeftyFingerPop]

2. Yes...

and it will never be stopped, simply because their are so many ways for an employer to cover their ass in this situation.

[wildhorses]

3. yes.

:shrug:

[leftofthedial]

4. have you personally been fired or denied a job due to your age?

[wildhorses]

10. i can't prove anything but, yes -- i think so.

also younger people will work for less money.

[leftofthedial]

11. I used to think less money was the issue

now I'm pretty sure it's not

it's benefits (medical costs), stupidity and a concerted effort by the capitalist oligarchy to destroy the middle class.

I've been willing for the last four years to work for a modest salary, even by the standards of much younger people. 750+ resumes/applications submitted for known openings = 3 total interviews in the last two years. Meanwhile, I know of at least five cases in which a younger, less-qualified person got the job at higher pay than what I sought. I all five of the cases about which I'm certain, the person turned out to be a disaster for the company--two company failures and three product/line of business failures.

If the capitalist oligarchs take out or keep down a 20-something, odds are it keeps just keeps that individual person in their existing low economic class. But if they can remove a 40-something or 50-something from their decent-paying career, it probably takes an entire family out of the middle class. Much jucier target in the class war than a young person. Once the middle class shrinks by another 15 or 20%, the younger people will more and more become the targets.

[Connonym]

20. Quite honestly, I think that's the domestic issue that most desperately needs to be addressed

Wage stagnation, under employment, lack of employer provided benefits, CEO greed. I don't think it'll improve without a resurgence of labor unions.

I put this above health care reform because I think a lot of health care issues could be addressed by forcing employers to adequately insure employees.

[leftofthedial]

22. I think employment and wages are the major issue too

the overarching umbrella of all our troubles, from "terrorism" to Iraq to erosion of civil liberties, is the class war being waged brutally by the ruling capitalist oligarchs against the rest of us.


but I think health care reform is a central issue in that struggle. Small businesses truly can't afford it anymore. Costs have gone from about $350 per month per employee to well over $1000 for most plans.

[femmocrat]

6. Yes... I even tried to sue, but....

they will cover their asses in ways you don't even know about. It's very hard to prove. It gave me a little satisfaction that they knew I wasn't just going away without a fight, though.

[leftofthedial]

8. I got laid off in 2002

a small software start-up clearing the decks for a crappy VC-engineered merger that killed both companies within a year

they laid off 4 out of about 25--the only 4 in the company over 45--and made us sign a pledge not to sue for age discrimination in order to get our severance pay

[Blue Diadem]

29. WHAT? You had to sign a pledge not to sue for age discrimination to get your severence?

That's really rotten. Have you ever contacted an attorney about that? I realize the statute of limitations has probably run out on it, but I'd think just the fact they had you sign that pledge would surely indicate that you were in fact discriminated against due to age.

[leftofthedial]

32. the VCs running the show are pretty powerful hereabouts

I feared blacklisting

LOL I got it anyway

have I mentioned lately how much I hate capitalists?

[Blue Diadem]

34. What they're doing is awful.

They're stripping away our rights by making people afraid.

I'm sorry you went through that and that you're having trouble finding a job. It can take it's toll on you. I saw what it can do with my DH and my daughter. They both went without jobs for about a year.

[mcscajun]

33. I had to do likewise in 2003. I also had to willingly and properly

train the offshore folks who were going to do my job, or I wouldn't get my severance. This was at a multi-national bank. Four of us were laid off; two were over 50, the other two were far younger. "Proof" that it wasn't age discrimination, yet we had to sign the agreement anyway.

I signed, I took the money, I ran.

And as I was a "good little wage slave" I still have my health insurance as a retiree (an early, not entirely voluntary retiree) and I'm sure they're pretty sure having that benefit, along with my signature is enough to keep me in line. Given the realities of being over 55, the current state of IT, and the high cost of health insurance, it is.

Now I work in my doctor's office. Quite a come-down from the high-paying world I used to live in.

[Blue Diadem]

35. Do those agreements actually use the words age discrimination?

These companies are coming up with all types of ways to keep people under their control while freeing themselves of any liability. I saw it with my DH when his placed closed. The employees worked their forced OT, 7 days a week, right up until the doors closed just so they could get their severance pay. Guess what..they received NO severance pay at all. My DH had almost 25 yrs there and got zip.

[mcscajun]

36. It's been four years, but as I recall, those exact words were used.

If not, then "words to that effect".

I might even still have my copy around here somewhere, buried under an avalanche of other old papers. :shrug:

Sorry about your DH's situation; that really sucks. Sounds like his employer went belly-up, financially?

[Blue Diadem]

40. Pretty bold of them to do that, actually use the words or similar words

I'm still curious if it's legal..course they have all the lawyers to CTA's.

Yeah, Dh's company was bought out and for some reason the new owners poor management style was blamed on one particular plant..the plant where DH worked. So that one was the first to close. (The others closed later) Something was conveniently messed up in the bankruptcy filing(Reorganization filing IIRC) that left out any chance of severance..cept for a couple grand offered near the end and that was with all employees agreeing to never seek any type of claim against them for injury or illness. My Dh reminded me of that meager sum just now. I'd forgotten about it because after taxes..well you can imagine what was left. I remember that paid for our insurance for two months. That happened in '98.

I just decided to google the parent company and I'll be darned it's still in operation, albeit financially not well off. Went Chapter 11 in 2002. Stock's .01, many other plants have closed and hmm..the ceo makes $2,000,000 yet a year. PBGC's taken over something like 9,000 of their pensions, including my DH's.

We went through it a 2nd time after moving for DH to find work. He had 4 yrs in that place and it was the only union plant that company owned. The company just up and decided to close it.

[Blue Diadem]

41. acckkk..double post.

[lizerdbits]

37. When my last company did layoffs most were over 40

My boss was one of them. Then they "realize" that some were a bad idea and we are short staffed so they hire new people, always young. I think it was planned that way because most of those laid off had a decade or more at the company it was before it was bought out by another larger company. One woman in a neighboring lab was a little past standard age to retire but didn't because she couldn't afford her medications and I don't know how she's doing since she was laid off. The majority I'm aware of were also women, but it was a fairly large company so I don't have real numbers for that. (40 or so laid off while I personally knew of about 10.)
I figure I'd better be in a position I'm willing to do for 20 years when I'm 40 and hope I don't get the ax.

[xmas74]

7. Not in hiring but

in promoting.

A former employer felt that giving a position to an underqualified 19 year old right out of high school would be better for the company in the long run. The explanation was that as a single mother who has "been in the workforce a few years" I might not as have much time and energy to dedicate to the position.

I suspect it was both my age and the fact that I am a single mother. BTW-I had just turned 30 when this happened.

[ThomCat]

15. I wish there were ways to prove shit like that

and nail these people to the wall. x(

[xmas74]

31. But good luck proving it.

They actually came out and pretty much said it to me but had the attitude of "it's your word against ours".

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. Yes, without being told.

Very educated and experienced, can't even get an interview. My career died in 1994 when I was 39 and was totally burned out on it, and since then have had nothing but crappy jobs and no jobs. '

[leftofthedial]

12. I'm in the same boat sans burnout

and I made it to 45.

One year I'm not only successful for my employer, I'm a published "expert" in my field and a speaker at international conferences; the next year, I can't get a single interview. Five years later, I get three interviews from a few hundred resumes.

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. In hiring, no

In firing, yes.

[leftofthedial]

16. me both

[Connonym]

17. my mom has really struggled

she's almost 70 and still very active. She's had a really hard time finding a position and even though she's got a ton of experience with payroll and accounting.

[leftofthedial]

19. wow. It would really be tough at 70

I've had trouble--pretty clearly some sort of "blacklist"--since my mid-40's.

I don't get it, especially when I see companies who rejected me and really need my skills and experience choose someone with lesser skills and less experience just because they are a decade younger and then see those companies pay an enormous price for their decision. I know of at least five such examples within the last two years. Health-care costs seem the likeliest explanation and the existence of a more nefarious "conspiracy" is also a possibility.

I'll buy that I'm not a perfect fit for a large percentage of percentages, overqualified for others, but I've had 3 interviews, only 2 of those in person, in well over 750 applications.

I've tried all sorts of approaches--dumbing down my resume, only listing experience from the last decade or five years, focus on competencies instead of specific jobs . . . there is so much detailed personal information available to corporations now, that finding my age would be easy for anyone.

[datasuspect]

21. i'm encountering something

i've applied to at least 50 different places in the past month.

we're not talking professional/paraprofessional/career path work.

we're talking mcdeath, wendys, taco bell, the fucking gas station.

i have not received ONE call about any application i've submitted.

i've even followed up by trying to contact hiring managers, no dice.

and i already tried moving to a different area.

made it to austin last month and was there about a week.

lived at the salvation army and ate at soup kitchens.

had some fresh faced rosy cheeked 20 something year old ditz tell me to give them 9 references to get temp work. that i needed a marketing plan for my temp career as a fucking file clerk. i wanted to punch their teeth down their throat.

i couldn't hang this time though. 2 or 3 days into this foray, my mental health started to take a hit. had family bail me out (a return bus ticket).

at least i tried.

i have never felt this hopeless and powerless in my life.

i always thought in this country there was SOME KIND of job available for someone who is willing to work. i'm not even picky anymore.

[leftofthedial]

23. I can't find work

many, even here at DU, immediately blame me. It is soul-sucking. I truly believe, after two years of utterly fruitless searching, that there is some sort of blacklisting taking place.

I'm skilled, experienced, healthy, articulate and have great references.

I can't even get an interview when I have champions inside the hiring organization.

[datasuspect]

24. you have to be careful about personal stuff you reveal here

i was leery about making my post about this situation, but i am at a loss.

there are a few nasty people here who will pounce on any weakness.

i say fuck em, they pretty much stay away from me.

but as to your point, i completely understand.

there is ONLY SO MUCH you can do when the people who make decisions about jobs won't even let you in on the conversation.

and it does make a person feel hopeless. there are plenty of people who have relative stability and comfort who will never understand because they have significant fallback.

that is, i hope they never find themselves in the situation.

if you are trying, if you are doing what you need to do find something, it isn't your fault.

i love it when people tell you to move somewhere else. like that doesn't cost money.

[Blue Diadem]

25. It's alive and doing well.

My DH hears it all the time from other employees who are attempting to get their friends hired. They actually have conversations with their boss not to hire so and so, he/she is too old. Imagine, that's if the potential employee in their late 40's, early 50's.

We thought it existed when DH didn't get calls for interviews during his year off work. He was told by someone at job services to remove some of his experience and anything else from his resume that could indicate his age.

It may be something you should double check on your resume.

[undeterred]

26. I went to a re-employment class at our state department of workforce development

The attendees were selected at random- people who were on unemployment the longest were deemed to be having trouble finding jobs. Guess what. All were people with good skills, and there was not a single person in the room under age 45. Average age 52.

[leftofthedial]

27. I have a similar experience with a group of former colleagues

over 45? they are still unemployed (or at best grotesquely underemployed)

just in my 20 or 25 person little networking group, there is an enormous waste of resources and potential. We're talking about people with 20 to 30 productive years left.

I've often thought of trying to start a business with my friends and me, but none of us has any capital left.

[undeterred]

30. They have a free class there on starting your own business

I went to that too. It was almost entirely women over 45 (although there were a few men too) and people had some great ideas. Very hard to do if you don't have some money saved up or if you are not married so that you have a stable second income.

[undeterred]

28. Sex Discrimination

This happened to me a few weeks ago:

MidSize company is going to replace 250 computers - 200 desktop, 50 laptops.
They already have 3 men on a team and they ask for 5 outside contractors. They get 2 women, 3 men.
The computers come in late one day and everyone works together unloading the truck for 3 hours.

The next day the two women are asked to unbox all 250 computers and haul away all the garbage. This is heavy, difficult, physical work, which would have gone much faster if men were also doing it- but only the women are assigned. There are some tasks where women are equal to men, but when it comes to lifting with the upper body, we are generally not equals. The men do the intellectual work of learning to stage machines. At the end of 11 hours one of the women quits in disgust. The other woman (me) says she is exhausted and is going home. I have a pulled trapezius muscle from that day 3 weeks ago.

Next day the staffing company has sent a young male in to replace woman who quit. Supervisor shakes his hand and tells me to leave, he doesn't need people around who can't handle the job. :shrug: 12 hours of mandatory physical labor for the women only, while the men sit all day, and we were all hired to do the same work.

Yes, I reported it to his supervisor and I am reporting it to the EEOC. But I really wanted the work.

[leftofthedial]

38. corporatism

people don't matter

[undeterred]

39. The supervisor of the guy who did this was apparently furious

when he heard about it, but by then it was over. He can choose never to let this guy supervise other people again, however. I believe there are still a few good people stuck in the nooks and crannies of every corporation but its frustrating as hell for them as they are forced to lie and treat people like garbage.