Can You Be A Vegetarian And Eat Eggs?

[Yavin4]

I got into a heated argument with someone once who claimed that the he was a vegetarian, but he ate eggs.

I believe that if you eat eggs, you're disqualified from being a vegetarian.

[rucky]

1. They'll pull your card for that. n/t

[GirlinContempt]

2. Uh, yes

[GirlinContempt]

9. There are several categories of vegetarians

, all of whom avoid meat and/or animal products. The vegan or total vegetarian diet includes only foods from plants: fruits, vegetables, legumes (dried beans and peas), grains, seeds, and nuts. The lactovegetarian diet includes plant foods plus cheese and other dairy products. The ovo-lactovegetarian (or lacto-ovovege-tarian) diet also includes eggs. Semi-vegetarians do not eat red meat but include chicken and fish with plant foods, dairy products, and eggs.

http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/html/appendixC.htm

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yewberry]

34. Gee, thanks.

I always enjoy having strangers judge me and my choices as pathological.


The Lounge comes through again! Woo-hoo!

[Seabiscuit]

45. Just

teasing... :)

[flvegan]

35. "Eating disorder"

Oh, please...do elaborate.

[LeftyMom]

40. Professionals say otherwise

"It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." "Well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth "

-Position statement on Vegetarianism, American Dietetic Assn, appeared in Journal of the American Dietetic Association, November 1997, Volume 97, Number 11.

[Seabiscuit]

44. Professional pediatricians disagree

According to pediatricians, human breast milk, in the form of breast feeding is considerably superior to any form of formula, including soy-based formula. Wouldn't that be considered antithetical to strict veganism, since we are animals, and a breast-feeding infant is consuming animal milk products?

Pediatricians also recommend that infants and toddlers (once they're ready to move on from soft "baby" foods) not only ingest cow's milk, yogurt, cheese, and eggs, but also beef, chicken, and seafood as souorces of proteins, as their brains especially need such proteins for early development. Isn't that antithetical to all vegetarianism?

What do vegans and other vegetarians feed their babies, infants and toddlers? If they are not breastfeeding, then moving to vegetables, fruits, grains, dairy and meats, they're ignoring the advice of pediatricians at their peril (or more precisely, at the peril of their children's health).

I have a son approaching 3 and this isn't just the word of our own pediatrician, but of all the written materials he's given us and books he's recommended about diet for babies and children. I'm sure there are tons of links on the 'net elaborating on all this. Our own pediatrician is at the top of his field.

I would trust a pediatrician over any dietician any day.

[LeftyMom]

54. Vegetarians and vegans breastfeed.

As a matter of fact, the only vegan option for nutrition in early infancy is breastmilk, as formula whether dairy or soy involves animal fats and a vitamin D supplement derived from lanolin (there's a plant based one, but it costs more.)

As for the care and feeding of children, that was addressed above. Proteins are easily obtained from more healthful sources in plant-based foods such as beans, seitan and soy products such as tofu and tempeh, and in lower but still significant quantities in other parts of a typical veg diet such as whole grain breads. Adequate protein intake is easily achieved on a vegan diet and does not require any real planning other than that typical in putting together a meal.

My own child has been vegan since infancy, and he's big for his age, very smart and very healthy. Since a vegan diet eliminates many typical dietary allergens he never went through the snotty nose toddler thing, and he is almost never sick and gets better very fast when he is. His doctor approves of his diet and believes it to be very healthy. Of course, this may have something to do with her being from India, where people of her caste are lacto-vegetarians and raise their children as such. She has a child of about my son's age who has never eaten a speck of meat (but does get dairy) who is the picture of health.

If the AAP cares about veg diets in children (or diet generally outside of obesity and diabetes) I can't tell from their website. They have a study involving nutritional needs of veg children, but it's password protected and I'm not going to pay to look at it, and that's about it.

[Seabiscuit]

60. Well, then, vegans

are behaving in a manner antithetical to their own belief system if they breastfeed their babies, as breastmilk *is* animal milk, since we humans are animals.

To say that "plant-based foods" are "more healthful sources" of proteins is simply dangerous propaganda, and defies the advice of pediatricians, who say animal based proteins are better sources of protein than other sources, and should be combined with other sources. A vegan diet may be an "adequate" source of protein for adults, but it is deleterious to babies and infants.

If your baby was breast-fed since infancy, he or she was *not* a "vegan since infancy" by definition.

My son is healthier than other children his age, partly because he was breast-fed for 19 months in addition to the soft foods he began eating after 6 months and the five solid food groups he's been eating since his first year. The only time he was ever sick was from a few colds he picked up at a preschool we removed him from after 4 months because we finally noticed the teachers there weren't paying any attention to the fact that there were parents dropping their kids off sick, and the teachers didn't practice any basic hygiene to prevent the spread of colds. Since then he's been at a Montessori school and hasn't had a cold or any other form of illness for the past 8 months. Breast milk has ingredients that fend off illness and disease which simply aren't contained in any formulas.

[LeftyMom]

71. look, I've been vegan for five years. I moderate a vegan message board. I work with other vegans.

I have read more books on vegetarian and vegan nutrition (and nutrition in children generally) than most professionals. Don't tell me what is and isn't vegan, because I'm the one who knows what the hell they're talking about here.

Of course breastmilk is vegan. To say that it were not would be equivalent to saying that pregnancy isn't vegan because the foetus derives it's nutrition from the blood of the mother. The mother/child relationship is symbiotic, and continues to be so for some time outside the womb in mammals. As this is voluntary and not at all exploitative (both parties gain significant health advantages) there is no reason breastfeeding is inconsistent with veganism.

As for this superior protein nonsense, it's outdated and based on studies from the 50s involving feeding chicken eggs to rats. It has nothing to do with human nutrition, because humans pair up complimentary amino acid profiles in their protein sources without even thinking about it. The whole notion was debunked before I was even born, for heaven's sake.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

90. The notion that proteins are classed based on amino acid profile is outdated,

and was outdated long before I was born. Proteins eaten throughout the day of varying amino acid profiles naturally provide all the amino acids needed from diet. If your pediatrician is telling you otherwise, you really ought to look for one who isn't giving you dietary advice that was last considered current and valid when my parents were in school. Or at the very least speak to an actual dietitian, as the nutritional training given to pediatricians and GPs tends to be minimal at best.

[Seabiscuit]

93. You can go on believing what you will

to justify your personal beliefs about your diet.

I'll stick with the professionals.

[LeftyMom]

96. The official statement from the professionals is upthread.

In case you missed it

"Well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth."

-Position statement on Vegetarianism, American Dietetic Assn, appeared in Journal of the American Dietetic Association, November 1997, Volume 97, Number 11.

[Seabiscuit]

105. I already responded to that.

Pointing out that the real professionals in the baby/infant toddler arena, i.e. pediatricians, strongly disagree with whoever wrote that quote.

[LeftyMom]

107. You provided no evidence for that assertion

I searched the AAP website and couldn't find any there either.

[Seabiscuit]

112. I already responded to that point as well.

I said I was sure there were tons of websites supporting what my pediatrican says, what all the paperwork he's handed us says, and what all the books he's recommended and that we've read on the subject say.

If you're the kind of person who only considers "websites" as "evidence", then you're free to do your own searches on the web. Or consult a pediatrician who is also at the top of his field as mine is, and ask him for some websites in addition to recommended books on the subject.

[LeftyMom]

113. Unnamed handouts from unnamed sources, an unnamed pediatrician and unnamed books are not evidence.

It's like math in grade school. You only get credit if you show your work.

[Seabiscuit]

116. I know the names.

You expect me to give out my pediatrician's name on the web? No thanks. I don't have to show you anything. You're not the teacher, and I'm not your student. Do yourself a favor and conduct your own research since you won't listen to anyone else on the subject. You apparently have an axe to grind and refuse to consider anything inconsistent with your agenda.

[LeftyMom]

117. I've done my own research.

Your opinion is outdated and wrong.

Have a lovely day. My son and I need to go shopping and get a wedding gift for the sniffas, then we're probably going to lunch and the movies.

[Seabiscuit]

120. I'm happy for you

that you're so self-satisfied with your lack of inquisitiveness. After all, Orwell was pretty perceptive in stating in "1984" that "Ignorance Is Bliss". But please don't confuse what you call "my opinion" with the information I've conveyed from my pediatrician and the reading materials he's given us and recommended. You may want to dismiss me personally for lacking credibility because I haven't done your web research for you, but that's nothing more than a cheap shot to me from someone who obviously doesn't care what any pediatricians may say so long as it appears inconsistent with your seemingly religious beliefs in your eating agenda.

This will be my last post in this thread as my wife and son are now up and we're getting ready to leave the house as well.

[MonkeyFunk]

121. Actually

it was Thomas Gray (1716-1771) who wrote "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise." He also invented the phrases:

kindred spirit
Far from the madding crowd
The Paths of glory


Orwell wrote "Ignorance is Strength"

[YellowRubberDuckie]

132. Most of the time we disagree about this stuff...

But even I think this is a little ridiculous and that you're right.
Never thought you'd see that happen, did you? LOL
Duckie

[GirlinContempt]

72. As I understand it

The objection to the use of dairy by vegans doesn't seem to be about the fact that it's from an animal in the way you describe. It has to do more with the fact that it is taken from an animal raised only for this purpose, I guess you could say without it's consent, and often in unseemly ways.
Freely giving your milk to your own child is a totally different thing. The female body produces milk to support the young, much in the same way that a cows body produces milk to support ITS young. No vegan I know objects to other mammals providing their milk to their offspring. It's the human intervention that they have a problem with.

Vegans feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Seabiscuit]

82. If that

is the basis for the "objection of the use of dairy by vegans" then the objection has absolutely nothing to do with nutrition.

[GirlinContempt]

85. Well, there is also a nutritional objection that ties in as well

Cows milk is produced for baby cows, to put weight on them and provide them with necessary nutrients. It is not meant for humans.
Humans milk is produced for baby humans, and acts for them in the same way. It is meant for babies.

[Seabiscuit]

88. Well, that's a nice

purist notion, but again it has absolutely nothing to do with nutrition, and certainly that's not how pediatricians and other scientists go about reaching their conclusions.

[GirlinContempt]

98. Look, dude

You were saying you can't be vegan and breastfeed. That wasn't about nutrition, that was about you not understanding veganism.
I don't know a whole lot about the nutritional aspect of it. I'm not a vegan, I don't have vegan children. I don't really care what your views are on the nutrition of veganism.
You were going on about how vegans aren't vegan if they breastfeed. I explained what I know about it to the best of my ability. Your arguments on that point were pretty lame, and anything I say further will be pretty lame, as I know enough to say when I'm out of my depth.

[Seabiscuit]

103. My point

has consistently been that if vegans breastfeed they are being inconsistent and self-contradictory in their use of the english language when they make their objections to "animal" products.

[yewberry]

79. You're mistaken. Breastmilk is vegan by definition.

Veganism isn't about drawing up lists and making categories. Yes, humans are animals, so I can see why so many people have this misunderstanding, but veganism is about doing less harm.

There is no exploitation or harm involved in breastmilk. It's entirely vegan.

Why would you try to explain veganism to a vegan?

[Seabiscuit]

83. Again, if that is the basis

of a vegan's objection to dairy, the objection has absolutely nothing to do with nutrition.

[yewberry]

92. What are you talking about?

I'm trying to clarify what veganism is for you, because clearly you've got some kind of misunderstanding.

Veganism isn't simply a diet, so no, objecting to dairy isn't primarily about nutrition.

[Seabiscuit]

123. Any misunderstanding

that you wish to attribute to me is created by the language used by vegans.

Since vegans are using fairly nebulous concepts, attempting to combine vague notions of emotional purity towards animals and human intervention in their lives, with vaque and apparently emotionally derived notions about nutrition, it is understandable that they find it difficult to express themselves clearly. Thus an objection to ingestion of "animal byproducts" such as cow's milk, is vague, because humans are also animals and therefore human milk must necessarily be included in such a broad concept contrary to their actual beliefs and practices.

Perhaps vegans will revisit their use of the english language someday to avoid such confusion created by the way they express their beliefs.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking vegans for being vegans. The foods they eat are all healthy and able to sustain adult human life, and I am the last person on the planet to put someone down for their dietary preferences. Children, of course, are another subject. That's where vegan beliefs begin to conflict with the findings of science and medicine. OTOH, I totally agree with vegans that the manner in which much of the meat/poultry/fish that people consume is killed is inhumane and often causes unnecessary pain and suffering to animal life and should be changed if it's going to happen at all, which of course it will, whether we like it or not.

OTOH again, for all we know, perhaps plants experience pain and suffering when killed/consumed alive, but express such pain at a frequency undetectable to human ears. Imagine the torture a bean may go through being slowly heated to a boil. And horror of horrors, imagine a poor head of lettuce having its leaves torn from its body like arms yanked out of a person's shoulder sockets, and then having its leaves ripped into smaller pieces, then EATEN ALIVE in a salad!

:)

[yewberry]

124. No, you were flat-out mistaken.

You thought (and may still think) that veganism is diet, and one laid out and defined by some series of categories. It's not. What seem like fairly nebulous concepts to you are pretty clear to me. That's not a judgment; it's simply true that I've spent a lot of time with this subject and have come to a good understanding of what I think is right for me or not right for me.

The derivation of your understanding or misunderstanidng of veganism isn't the point. You made an error, and I simply corrected it. Regardless of semantic questions, you made assumptions and assertions that were incorrect, and then attempted to school vegans about veganism.

That said, of course you're free to criticize vegans' inability to express themselves clearly. I'll be sure to bring it up at the next imaginary meeting.

And I don't think I get you wrong--you made your feelings pretty clear with your initial remark about eating disorders. Clearly, you are not the last person on the planet to put someone down for their dietary preferences.

And finally, it's true that we have no way to definitively know that plants don't experience suffering when they are killed. Of course, they have no central nervous system or nerves of any kind, and (being sessile) no evolutionary advantage to developing aversive responses. If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to provide a link for comparison illustrating exactly what kind of response animals with central nervous systems have when they are being killed.

:)

[Seabiscuit]

125. No, it's the language utilized by vegans that is mistaken.

It's the use of certain phrases which is misleading where their actual beliefs are inconsistent with the clear meaning of the words utilized.

I'm trying to be as kind as possible. Perhaps you could use a bit less vitriol, and be a tad more reasonable and less defensive, eh?

Incidentally, plants don't have brains or ears, either. Yet studies have been done demonstrating that when exposed to music of any kind, indoor plants grow healthiest when "listening" to classical music, particularly the compositions of J.S. Bach.

[yewberry]

126. Semantics? That's the issue?

Look, you've misunderstood veganism, and that's fine. It happens every day, and that's why I'm trying to be clear here.

What, specifically, is your issue here? Are you claiming that the language that vegans use to get by in the world is somehow the cause of all this drama? That the fact that I shortcut with "I do my best not to use any animal products" is misleading? Would it be better if I went with "I do my best not to use any animal products except breastmilk, because that's natural and not exploitive?"

No, as I said, we don't have any way to truly understand what plants can or can't experience. We have lots of evidence relative to what animals with central nervous systems experience.

And realistically, pointing out that you are spreading untruths about veganism and making unkind remarks is hardly vitriolic. If you feel I've been unreasonable, please feel free to point me to specific problem areas or to alert.

[Seabiscuit]

128. You betcha. But it's more than mere semantics.

Apparently you, for instance, as a vegan give more importance to your intrinsic knowledge as a vegan in what you believe and what it means to you, than to how vegans express their beliefs to non-vegans even where the inconsistency between the two is pointed out to you. You can't blame a non-vegan for "misunderstanding veganism" if the language used by vegans is the very source of the misunderstanding. Call that mere semantics all you want, but if you can't express yourself clearly to others in any walk of life you create your own problems for yourself and others, and have no business blaming the others for the misunderstandings you create all on your own. Something that may be clear to you will not be clear to others if you can't express it clearly to avoid confusion.

You claim, in addition, for instance, that it's a misunderstanding to say that veganism is about diet, when, in fact, the language vegans use to explain themselves to others is first and foremost focused on diet. The most glaring thing about vegans to non-vegans is what they choose to reject as food. Occasionally vegans resort to their metaphysical justifications for their dietary preferences if feeling defensive about it, but that always comes across as secondary to non-vegans, whose first impressions about vegan choices is always necessarily focused on dietary choices.

I haven't spread any "untruths about veganism". That's completely dishonest. If you're still grating about my initial joke about "eating disorders" and feel compelled to slam me with such false smears, then (1) you obviously don't share my sometimes dark sense of humor, (2) you apparently failed to notice that my original post about that was deleted, apparently via a complaint to the mods by a poster such as yourself that felt personally offended by it, and (3) you failed to notice my subsequent post about "just teasing". If it will help lower your blood pressure vitriol levels, I will apologize and retract that remark for you, as it was clearly in poor taste.

[yewberry]

135. All righty.

Apparently you, for instance, as a vegan give more importance to your intrinsic knowledge as a vegan in what you believe and what it means to you, than to how vegans express their beliefs to non-vegans even where the inconsistency between the two is pointed out to you.
Yes, my understanding of my choices is more important than your understanding of my choices. What, specifically, is the inconsistency you keep referring to? Is it that breastmilk is vegan? Seriously, several people tried to clear that up.

You can't blame a non-vegan for "misunderstanding veganism" if the language used by vegans is the very source of the misunderstanding. Call that mere semantics all you want, but if you can't express yourself clearly to others in any walk of life you create your own problems for yourself and others, and have no business blaming the others for the misunderstandings you create all on your own. Something that may be clear to you will not be clear to others if you can't express it clearly to avoid confusion.
I don't blame anyone for not understanding veganism. There are lots of myths out there about it. I do think it's strange when people who don't understand it try to tell others (particularly vegans) about it.

You claim, in addition, for instance, that it's a misunderstanding to say that veganism is about diet, when, in fact, the language vegans use to explain themselves to others is first and foremost focused on diet. The most glaring thing about vegans to non-vegans is what they choose to reject as food. Occasionally vegans resort to their metaphysical justifications for their dietary preferences if feeling defensive about it, but that always comes across as secondary to non-vegans, whose first impressions about vegan choices is always necessarily focused on dietary choices.
Yes, the most noticeable thing about veganism is the diet, because that's when it begins to have an impact on other people. Do you actually want to see posts about how hard it is to find non-leather shoes or what a great day it was when digital cameras came on the scene? Man, that's what the v/v/ar group is for. I don't think descriptions about veganism are "metaphysical justifications"--in fact, it's pretty straightforward.

I haven't spread any "untruths about veganism". That's completely dishonest. If you're still grating about my initial joke about "eating disorders" and feel compelled to slam me with such false smears, then (1) you obviously don't share my sometimes dark sense of humor, (2) you apparently failed to notice that my original post about that was deleted, apparently via a complaint to the mods by a poster such as yourself that felt personally offended by it, and (3) you failed to notice my subsequent post about "just teasing". If it will help lower your blood pressure vitriol levels, I will apologize and retract that remark for you, as it was clearly in poor taste.
Untrue: breastmilk isn't vegan; veganism is a diet based on "vague notions of emotional purity towards animals and human intervention in their lives, with vaque and apparently emotionally derived notions about nutrition"; vegans imperil their children's lives. Your assertions may be your opinion, but that doesn't make them true. I did see that your remark about eating disorders was deleted, and I did see your response; that's why I didn't think it was a huge deal and didn't alert on it.

Look, I'm really sorry if you've felt that I've been vitriolic. I've certainly been impatient. It's actually a difficult topic to work around. If we don't talk about veganism, there will be misunderstandings about it; if we do talk about vegansim, some take it as inherent criticism of their own choices. So, what to do?

[last_texas_dem]

127. Do you honestly see no difference

between a mother feeding her baby with the milk her own body produces vs. a mother feeding her baby food made from other animals?

I apologize if this statement offends you, but I really cannot tell whether you are legitimately curious here or whether you're being purposely obtuse just to stir up shit...

[Seabiscuit]

129. The issue isn't what I see or don't see.

The issue is the poor use of language by vegans to describe their beliefs, because it is misleading, inconsistent, and self-contradictory on its face, as I've spelled out in detail more than enough times already, even for someone bent on being obtuse to understand.

[Left Is Write]

56. My vegetarian sister and her vegetarian husband are the parents

of a healthy, thriving vegetarian three-year-old, who was breastfed for at least a year.

My vegetarian sister is also pregnant with her second child and is quite healthy.

Yes, yes, I know. Anecdote vs. data. But though I can't know what my sister's obstetrician and pediatrician tell her, I can tell you that nothing they have done has put my niece's health in "peril."

[Seabiscuit]

65. If your sister

breastfed her three-year old for at least a year, she did the right thing, and therefore, by definition, her child is not a "strict" vegetarian since birth since he/she consumed an animal product (human milk) for at least a year.

I am not the type of person who would raise an "anecdote vs. data" objection to such stories, as I value such personal experience.

[Left Is Write]

111. There is nothing non-vegetarian, strict or otherwise, about breastfeeding.

[Exultant Democracy]

138. lol are you having us all on? This has to be a joke.

The fact that you continue to assert that breastfeeding is not consistent with a strict vegetarian diet (after you have been corrected repeatedly) is probably the best part of your joke. (but your use of caveman science is pretty funny too)

So what is the punch line are you pretending to be Chris Matthews?

[BarenakedLady]

62. Yup

Just look at these poor poor nutritional deprived vegetarian since conception children who were breastfed into toddlerhood...



Such a shame...

:eyes:

[Seabiscuit]

67. I hope those aren't your children.

I would never post a picture of my child on the internet. Forget about diet. That conduct alone places children in very serious danger.

[BarenakedLady]

70. yes because

you can tell exactly were i live

:scared:

[Seabiscuit]

74. If that's your attitude, then I must question your judgment on all matters.

[BarenakedLady]

84. You already do

You can't argue with false information and your obvious bias on the issue of a vegetarian/vegan diet so you attack my judgment. It's ok, you aren't the first person to use that weak method in a debate.

My kids are happy and healthy despite not eating meat, with the full knowledge of our pediatrician. I've know several other children raised this way as well and have never come across any health issues directly related to their diet. Sure that's anecdotal, but it is my experience.

I do not fear posting pictures of my children or myself. I never refer to them by name while posting. I don't understand the concern you are implying.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Inchworm]

89. You need to go to sleep dude

Take five.. breathe.. geesh from one bashing to another.

:(

[Seabiscuit]

94. "bashing"???

It's 9:07 in the morning here. You need to wake up, dude.

[Inchworm]

97. Well, at least debate with sense if you must

You are all over the place and so hard-nosed on your position you are deaf to the answers people are giving you.

[Seabiscuit]

101. "all over the place"???

If you were paying attention you'd not that I'm only pointing out two things: what pediatricians recommend, and also the disconnect between breastfeeding and objections to "animal" products.

And because I find the answers given inadequate, ill-informed, or merely nonsensical, that doesn't mean I'm "deaf" to them. I hear them. I simply disagree.

As for "hard-nosed", that dumb label can be just as easily and facetiously applied to anyone on any side of any discussion/disagreement/argument.

I have nothing against people eating whatever they want to. But the posts here about children, which I know something about, are simply irresponsible and ill-informed in my opinion.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

133. Holy crap dude...

Is there nothing you're not going to be critical of?
You're kind of being ridiculous for arguing with these people. You're not going to change their minds, and you're wasting your time. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Maybe actually read a book about what you're talking about because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Duckie

[rug]

3. I wondered the same thing about gasoline.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. Vegetarians can eat dairy, Vegans do not.

There you go.

[Seabiscuit]

28. Whenever I hear the word "vegan"

I think of Mr. Spock.

Oh, wait... he as a "vulcan".

'Scuuuuse me...

[Blue Diadem]

119. That's what I've always heard too. n/t

[ruiner4u]

5. yeah, sure, why not, no, never....

there are somethings I just wont discuss with people...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. yes, they can.

[Wapsie B]

7. I've honestly thought that there were different levels of vegans.

Those who eat eggs and dairy, because you don't have to kill anything to get those products. Some will eat certain kinds of seafood as well and consider themselves vegetarian.
Then those who won't touch anything from an animal at all.

[LeftyMom]

14. Nah, there's two kinds of vegans. The ones who are and the ones who aren't.

Okay, two and a half if you include newbs who are transitioning and doing the "oh shit, there's what in my what?" thing a lot.

As for the rest, see my post downthread and mentally add in a category "non-vegetarians" for the people who eat chicken or fish or free range meat or whatever.

[Critters2]

17. Vegans eat (and use) no animal products whatsoever.

Lacto-ovo-vegetarians eat no meat but do eat eggs and dairy.

Lacto-vegetarians eat dairy but no eggs nor meat.

All of the above are subsets within the set "vegetarian".

People who claim to be vegetarian but eat chicken and/or fish are called either "liars" or "confused" depending on how charitable I'm feeling on a given day.

[flvegan]

18. Erm...

animals suffer and are killed to get eggs and dairy.

No vegan will touch either. It's not a "level" thing. Vegetarians eschew flesh. Vegans eschew anything that comes from an animal that they can avoid.

[supernova]

8. That makes one an ovo-vegitarian

one who eats a veggie diet + eggs

[Richard Steele]

10. You're thinking of "vegan". Many vegetarians eat eggs and dairy.

My beloved Sweetie being one of the latter.

[Left Is Write]

11. Yes.

You cannot be vegan if you eat eggs, but it doesn't disqualify you from being vegetarian.

[Omphaloskepsis]

12. You are wrong.. Vegans don't eat eggs.

Lacto vegetarians don't eat eggs.. IIRC

Lots of branches of vegetarianism.

[LeftyMom]

13. Vegetarian is a fairly broad term

Unqualified it generally means an ovo-lacto vegetarian, and yes, they eat eggs and dairy products.

Religiously motivated vegetarians following eastern religions generally do not eat eggs, and are lacto-vegetarian.

Strict vegetarians do not eat eggs or dairy. They may or may not eat honey and generally avoid refined sugars processed with bone char. Many are as strict with their diet as vegans, but they may wear or use other animal products or simply not identify with the animal rights philosophy inherent in identifying as vegan.

Vegans avoid animal products as much as they possibly can.

[mzteris]

15. Yes. You can be a vegetarian and eat eggs.

VEGANS don't eat eggs.

Vegetarians ca. They can also drink milk and eat honey and wear wool but not leather. (Well I don't wear wool - it's itchy.)

[Alexander]

16. Yes. I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian (I eat eggs and cheese, but no meat)

The eggs I do eat, though, are from cage free birds who are fed vegetable matter.

[6000eliot]

131. Moi aussi!

:hi:

[jobycom]

19. Well, there is no central controlling authority to stop you.

You can be a vegetarian and eat a ribeye, I guess. No one can arrest you for it, though of course your credentials would have to be reestablished.

I'm vegetarian, I eat eggs. Usually only vegans avoid eggs. Eggs aren't meat and nothing dies directly to make them, so I don't know why one would assume a vegetarian wouldn't eat them. There are, of course, issues with the way eggs are farmed, so some may choose to avoid them, anyway. And of course, vegans don't eat any animal products. But lacto-ovo vegetarians are the most common.

[flvegan]

20. Having done battery hen rescue

You and I will disagree here.

"Nothing dies directly to make them" meaning eggs...you, my friend, are wrong.

[Critters2]

22. Indeed. Lots of things die--

the male chicks who get dumped in, well, dumpsters

the "spent" hens

the fish who die in fishkills when the lagoons leak or break

and quite probably wildlife and people who breathe in the toxic fumes

and rural communities whose populations and quality of life decline when the factory farms move in where there used to be family farms

and on

and on

[jobycom]

23. No sir, I'm not wrong.

An egg is still not meat. As I clearly said, a person can have an issue with the way eggs are farmed, but an egg is not part of a dead animal. Two different issues altogether. You can't get a hamburger without killing something, you can get an egg without killing anything. Not saying your aversion to them isn't justified, just saying they are two different issue altogether.

[flvegan]

24. You said this

"Eggs aren't meat and nothing dies directly to make them"

You still want to get into this? You are correct that "you can get an egg without killing anything" but your original post is largely in error. Don't bring MY aversion into this, as it has nothing to do with it.

HSUS also disagrees with you:
http://www.hsus.org/farm/camp/nbe/

Sorry.

[jobycom]

38. Why are you making an issue out of this? A chicken does not die when it lays an egg

How the Hell do you not grasp that?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

134. Doesn't it also depend on where the eggs come from?

There are good farms out there and they make it known on their packaging. Same with Dairy Farms. As long as people are responsible about where they get their products, doesn't that count for something, too?
Duckie

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

37. "bring it"

what are you, some kind of internet tough guy?

[SammyWinstonJack]

51. ...

:spray:

[jobycom]

39. Again, a chicken does not die when it lays an egg.

You are deliberately picking a fight where there is none.

[LeftyMom]

41. You're right, it doesn't. It dies after laying quite a few eggs.

If female, it dies after a year or two of laying at a pace far beyond what nature allowed, either of exhaustion or heart failure ("flip over syndrome") or is slaughtered when it's laying slows and it is considered "spent" and no longer economic to feed. If left alive much beyond this, the ones bred for such fast laying tend to die of mineral depletion. This is true whether it is a caged layer or not.

If male, it will be thrown in the trash immediately after hatching, where it will die crushed by it's brothers, by suffocation, or while being ground up for fertilizer or food for the laying hens.

So figuring one year of life for the hen as typical, at 1 egg a day, a 50/50 male female ratio and no extra deaths, the rosy scenario is that each egg is equivalent to 1/182nd of a chicken death, and each package of a dozen eggs represents 14% of the life of a chicken. That's assuming the 365 eggs per two dead fowl ratio, which is probably underfiguring the deaths by accident and disease.

[AlCzervik]

43. thanks for the info, i had no idea. Do Free range chickens live any longer

do you know? When i do buy eggs i either buy them from the guy down the street who has chickens or i buy the free rabge ones from Bel-air or i don't buy any is the first 2 choices aren't available.

[LeftyMom]

48. Free Range commercial chickens generally don't.

The same issue comes into play, where their bodies become malnourished and demineralized and their production slows down. At that point, it's more economical to slaughter them and use another hen for eggs, the idea being to maximize egg production per dollar spent on feed. Being out of cages may reduce losses to some extent but the largest factor is that they live about 1/13th of their natural lifespan because of being bred to produce so many eggs.

It's also important to know that the legal definition of free range is very weak and only means access to the outside. If I have a huge shed with tens of thousands of chickens in it, and I cut a one foot hole to a patch of dirt the size of a child's mattress outside, legally I'm now running a free range operation. Hopefully one's grocer has done some research to verify the operation allows significant access to the outdoors, but the only grocery I know of locally that I know does so is the food co-op.

Backyard situations can range pretty widely, from very small versions of commercial operations to pets that happen to lay eggs. In the pet scenario lives could be much longer and pretty happy. For somebody who eats eggs, a backyard chicken hobbyist is probably the most ethical source.

[jobycom]

52. Here's an article on it. Basically, free range means almost nothing.

http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ed_eggs.htm

Free range only means they can touch dirt now and then, even if their "range" is tiny, filthy, and crowded. There is no requirement not to debeak them, to treat them humanely, or anything else.

Buy local, if possible from a small farm operator you can meet. Ask specifically about debeaking. Or raise them yourself, or find a friend who raises them.

Eggs aren't meat, but commercially marketed eggs aren't usually created humanely. If they are on a store shelf with a pretty commercial package, assume debeaking and mass containment. By all means, contact any egg producer whose package implies or states otherwise--you might get lucky, and you will at least demonstrate that there is a market for eggs raised under better conditions.

You can find substitutes for eggs when baking, cooking, etc, if you want to reduce the number of eggs you use. I use ground flaxseed, for instance, when I'm baking muffins or anything using whole grains. Makes them healthier as well as more humane. Ground flax has a taste, though, so it's not right for, say, cakes, but there are easy, natural alternatives for any recipe. Google. I don't cook with eggs, and I don't have any in my refrigerator. I will eat them, though, if my only alternative is a dead creature.

[AlCzervik]

57. i do eat eggbeaters because they have so much protein in them but next time i do

buy eggs from the chicken guy down the street i'm going to ask him how many chickens he has on his property, he and his wife seem like nice people and they don't have eggs all the time either so hopefully it's all humane but next time i actually bake something i will use the plain eggbeaters instead of eggs.

[flvegan]

66. "the chicken guy"

We used to have a chicken guy in our old neighborhood. Only had a couple hens. They always sought to lay the eggs in our yard. We'd gather them and take the eggs back over to him. Now those were some happy, free-roaming birds. They ate our cat food, though, which I thought was odd because, well, it had chicken in it. Ew.

[jobycom]

68. I was really trying to avoid this kind of post, but I really guess I have to say...

Egg beaters are eggs with the yolks removed... There are other egg substitutes, though, that aren't eggs.

Here's some links:
http://vegetarian.about.com/od/vegetarianvegan101/f/eggsubstitute.htm
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1081.html

Use what you feel comfortable using. I've met people who get so caught up in trying to live completely animal-cruelty free that they finally give up altogether. I choose a less strict route--I make each choice as humanely as possible, even if the choice isn't perfect.

[AlCzervik]

76. wow didn't even realize that. Thanks for links, i'm don't have to have eggs

so i'll look for non egg based substitutes, on the days where i work out i always make an eggbeater omelet so subbing with a different product won't bother me at all.

[jobycom]

102. Most of the substitutes aren't going to make a good omelot.

They are usually designed to substitute for eggs in baking, either for leavening or for bonding. I'm not sure which ones have the right protein content, so check the label. Tofu does, and you can make a lot of recipes with tofu, ranging from smoothies, to "egg" salads, to a wide variety of styles, textures, flavors, etc. I haven't found a good way to make a tofu omelot, though, because it doesn't fold like eggs. Fritatas or migas work well, though. Some people add tumeric to make it look yellow, like an egg, but that just creeps me out. Looks more like yellow snow than an egg, if you get my drift! Adding nutritional yeast flakes to tofu gives it a sort of cheesy flaver. There are thousands of great recipes out there.

Some people are tofu-phobes, though, usually after having eaten a bland, stale package of it raw or slightly woked in a stir fry. Kind of like deciding they don't like cake because they once tasted raw flour. :)

[AlCzervik]

109. i actually like tofu and so does my daughter, i've stir dired it before and actually grilled it

and whenever i get that food---which i love i always get a dish with tofu in it. I am not a vegetarian but i don't eat much meat, about once ever few months i'll have some tri tip and i eat chicken about twice a week. I like finding new things to cook with and my kid is always open to trying new things.

[jobycom]

47. True, but one can raise chickens more humanely.

The issue is over the way they are farmed, not over the egg itself. Which was exactly my point.

If someone wants to give up eating slaughtered chickens but feels they can't give up eggs for whatever reason, I'm not going to shout "You filthy heretic! How dare you consider yourself a vegetarian! Begone with your murdering self!" I'm going to say "Good choice, friend, and welcome to the cause. Now, let me tell you about egg farming, and how to make the most humane choices."

[janx]

49. "I personally, myself, liberated egg-laying hens"

How did you go about doing this? Just curious...

[datasuspect]

53. so i guess he admits to committing possibly multiple felonies

on the internet, of all places.

[janx]

55. I dunno,

I'm just curious... :shrug:

[jobycom]

77. LOL! flvegan does animal rescue stuff, IIRC.

That involves saving abandoned or injured animals, nursing them health, releasing them into the wild or finding homes if they are domestic. I don't know the full particulars, but he's mentioned it from time to time. No multiple felonies necessary. :)

[datasuspect]

81. rescue?

oh, that's probably different than "liberation."

i guess i can substitute the word "rescue" for "liberation" in the future.

my bad.

[jobycom]

106. Depends on what sins you are substituting it for.

If you are trying to "rescue" a television from a department store, I don't think a change of semantics will help your defense. However, if you are running an animal rescue service, and someone calls you and says "A stray cat just had kittens under my back porch, and they are going to freeze to death unless you come get them," then you aren't going to need a legal defense no matter which word you use.

[flvegan]

59. .

Do you mean the particulars of how it was done?

[janx]

61. Yeah! n/t

[datasuspect]

63. did it involve illegal entry to the property?

defeating a security device to gain entry to a building?

please, do tell.

you do realize that the records from this website relating to your actual identity can be subpoenaed?

that is, if you are in fact admitting the commission of a felony. criminal cases have been made on much less. especially if conspiracy can be alleged.

[janx]

64. flvegan can give us an idea of how he did it without

outing himself completely. I'm really curious!

[flvegan]

69. You give me so much credit.

All the potential for this c&d adventure. Quite amusing.

[datasuspect]

73. well

if your "hen liberation" dalliances involved breaking and entering, you committed a felony.

unless you had a legal reason to be in someone's hen house.

or unless you didn't actually liberate any hens.

[janx]

75. Ifcyou keep doing this, he won't tell us how he did it!

And I seriously want to know! :rofl:

[datasuspect]

78. dude

it's for his own good.

i don't want hubris to get in the way of good sense.

and even though i disagree with the guy, i wouldn't want one of our fellow DUers to go into detail about incriminating activities.

[janx]

87. But he wouldn't have to give us all the details. n/t

[flvegan]

91. dammit!

And I was going to make up this big, elaborate "starring Tom Cruise" story about it too.

:shakes fist:

[janx]

95. So did you sneak into a chicken coop or what?

:shrug:

[flvegan]

100. No

It was an open rescue. When done right, very little sneaking is needed. The rest, as they say, is history.

[janx]

104. What is an open rescue--something done "out in the open,"

as in outside? And what did you do with the hens?

[flvegan]

108. Here

Open rescue in a nutshell. Wiki has an article, but much of it is inaccurate.
http://www.openrescue.org/about/index.html

The hens that survived went to sanctuaries and farms around the country.

[janx]

114. So before open rescue, animal rights activists wore masks?

I'm all for saving any creature that is hurting or in pain, but there's some room for malicious intent, too, if some individual decides to take the law into his or her hands.

[flvegan]

118. I think you're blurring too much together.

Open rescue is a form of liberation. Rarely does it involve any kind of property destruction, other than cutting a chain, fence, etc. Some liberators choose to wear a mask. There's no real before/after.

[LeftyMom]

110. nevermind

he types faster than I do.

[janx]

115. No, I saw your link. Thanks! n/t

[LeftyMom]

99. Gee, you really planned ahead

I heard this story years ago. The tips about how to get chicken shit out of rental car upholstery, and about where they went to and especially the <redacted> made it very convincing.

How dare you trick me like that! :sarcasm:

[flvegan]

26. And even more so

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/campaign/state_AZhens.htm

and here,

http://www.eggcruelty.com/

[datasuspect]

36. dude, you are way too much

"having done battery hen rescue"

i just knew you'd chime in with something like that.

hen rescue of justice.

[Radical Activist]

137. Oh that's what YOU think!

You'll be hearing from the vegitburo soon!

[JI7]

21. you can be vegetarian but not vegan

[Seabiscuit]

27. Hmmm... can you be vegan but not vegetarian?

[flvegan]

29. As stupid as labels are, to answer your question, no.

By definition.

[JI7]

31. all vegans are vegetarian, but not all vegetarians are vegan

[yewberry]

33. Nope. nt

[jobycom]

58. hehehe. Reminds me of the scene in "The Life of Brian"!!

Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front?
Reg: Fuck off! We're the People's Front of Judea
--
Reg: If you want to join the People's Front of Judea, you have to really hate the Romans.
Brian: I do!
Reg: Oh yeah, how much?
Brian: A lot!
Reg: Right, you're in.
------

I used to refuse to say I was vegetarian, because I hate labels. I'd tell people "I don't eat meat." So they'd say "So you're vegetarian?" And I'd say "Well, I don't like labels, but I don't eat meat." They'd look at me like I had just asked if I could borrow a few minutes of their time to discuss Tom Cruise, and say "Well, isn't that vegetarian?" So I'd say, "Well, yeah, I guess, but I don't really like labels." And they'd say, "So do you eat meat?" And I'd say "No, like I said, I don't eat meat," and they'd say "Well how about fish, or chicken?" And I'd say, "No, those are meat." And they'd say, "So, you're vegetarian?" At some point I'd give up and say, "Yeah, I'm vegetarian." After a while it got to be so much work I just started using the label. :)

Doesn't help, though. Now they launch into "Well, can you eat chicken?" To which I say "I CAN eat anything I want, but I don't eat chicken." "How about fish?" "No, fish are animals, I don't eat animals." "Well what about shrimp?" "No, no shrimp." "Well, what about oysters?" "No, no oysters." "Why not oysters? Are the animals." "I think so." "Really? Because, like, they don't have faces, really, and they don't seem much like animals." "Yeah, but... Look, I just don't eat them, okay?" "Alright, no need to be testy."

I swear, I tell people I'm an atheist and they shrug, I tell them I'm a liberal and they look at me a little funny (this is Texas), but I tell them I'm vegetarian and they hide the kids, get out the mosquito repellant, and scream "What's wrong with you, you freak?!"

[yewberry]

32. "Vegetarian" is an umbrella term & so it causes confusion.

It's really only for convenience.

Yep, ovo-lacto vegetarians eats eggs and dairy, but no flesh. Most people who call themselves vegetarian are ovo-lacto vegetarians. They don't eat flesh or tissue from dead animals, but do eat egg or rennet. Maybe gelatin--I don't even know anymore. (And anyone who eats *any* dead animals of any kind is absolutely not vegetarian.)

So, then people who are vegetarians but eat no eggs or dairy or honey have to call themselves 'strict vegetarians' to avoid confusion. These folks are referring specifically to diet, not an overall lifestyle. They eat no animal products of any kind.

Vegans try to avoid using any animal products whatsoever. Leather goods, wool products, lanolin, conventional camera film--all of these are common examples of products that vegans avoid. It's pretty much impossible to avoid consuming *all* animal products, so we mostly try to figure out where our own personal lines are drawn.

Really, it's not like there's some governing body that has written a set of rules; it's just a set of generally agreed-upon definitions we work with. (And that's why lots of folks get frustrated with inaccurate descriptions--I don't think there's a vegetarian alive that hasn't been served piece of fish or chicken because "Oh, I knew a vegetarian and s/he ate this." Imagine how much more magnified that can become for strict vegetarians and vegans!)

Messy, isn't it?

[NC_Nurse]

42. There are many categories of Vegetarians.

If you eat NO animal products you are a Vegan, the strictest variety.
This friend is not a vegan, but could be a vegetarian. They call the it
ovo-vegetarian, meaning they eat eggs.

Personally, I don't care what others eat. I avoid these arguments.
It's none of my business what you eat. My business is to be responsible for my own eating choices.

[janx]

46. This thread is a riot!

:rofl:

[philosophie_en_rose]

50. Every Egg is Sacred. Every Egg is Good.

Every Egg is Wanted
In Your Neighborhood

[Deep13]

122. I guess it depends how important the label is.

If he is doing it just to call himself a vegitarian, then maybe it matters. If not, who cares.

[Drum]

130. Isn't gasoline purely vegan?

Oops, sorry...that's coal.

:blush:


EDIT...misplaced reply to rug's #3 reply, not to OP.

[JVS]

136. I've shared veal with vegetarians.

Oh the joys of breaking rules.