I'm sorry to resort to this.

[LeftyFingerPop]

I need some help.

I am having some sort of panic attack.

I have no one to talk to right now.

I'm in a bad way, and I am turning to DU.

I feel horrible for doing this...but I have reached a point where I have to.

I feel like shit for asking people to post to me, but we do what we have to do.

Please don't PM me...I just want to stay in the lounge.

I know people here care about each other...I fucking hate asking this.

I probably will not respond, but I really need some advice from someone who knows what to do.

[lost-in-nj]

1. CALL ME

right now


lost


NOW

:hug: :hug:

try to breath, slowly..... I used to get them alot.....
just have to work through them..... think of other things..
tell it to go away, you don't have time for it.... dont laugh thats what I do....

I am here all day
if you want to call....



lost

[LeftyFingerPop]

3. I can't.

[lost-in-nj]

6. then when you can

ok??

lost

[LeftyFingerPop]

9. I cant talk about it...

but I appreciate it.

[lost-in-nj]

20. ok

don't want to be a pest, I want you to heal....
but we can talk about anything
you know I'm here

:hug: :hug:


lost

[taterguy]

2. Exercise always helps me

Fresh air, good scenery, does wonders for the soul.

[LeftyFingerPop]

4. It's very acute.

[slj0101]

5. Breathe deeply. Slow and steady breaths.

But not so deep as to make yourself dizzy.

[LeftyFingerPop]

7. thank you

[HuskerDU]

8. My gf suffers panic attacks sometimes.

Deep breaths

Picture yourself on the beach or somewhere calm and soothing

Now lose yourself in that atmosphere

The waves are lapping up on the shore

Everyone and everything is at peace

Deep breaths

[LeftyFingerPop]

10. thank you

[HuskerDU]

12. No problem my friend!

I know panic attacks are a drag. What I described is the short version of what helps my gf.

[MissMillie]

11. What do you mean you know people will not respond

of course we'll respond!

I don't know what to do in case of a panic attack. I have no experience with them. I would imagine that we need to keep you breathing and keep you from doing anything that might hurt yourself.

If you feel you're going to hurt yourself... is there someone who can bring you to the hospital? Anyone nearby at all... co-worker, etc...?


:hug:

Hang in there.

[LeftyFingerPop]

15. oh no...

i meant that i probably wont be able to respond...i know you good people will always respond, and thank you.

[Mz Pip]

13. I used to get them

Sometimes a hot bath would help me relax. Just know that it WILL pass. I know when it happen it feels like they will never go away. But they do.

Hang in there. :hugs:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[HuskerDU]

16. yes what Mz Pip said.

It will pass! You've gone through it before and it passed.

[LeftyFingerPop]

17. thank you

[Deep13]

14. You need an anti-anxiety medication.

Beyond that, I don't know what one needs to do in a panic attack. Warm thoughts, though.

[LeftyFingerPop]

18. thank you

[Writer]

19. I'm feeling terrible, too... maybe we can stick together for a while.

Here's what I do when I feel especially terrible: I go into my bathroom and turn on the cold water in the shower. Then I relax and meditate for a while. It does a lot for my nerves.

:hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

21. thanks writer

[Inchworm]

22. That sucks Philboy

I've never had panic attack I don't think, so I cant really suggest anything. On the other hand, I have experienced a heap of crazy mental stuffs. Knowing it will pass does help. Relaxation methods helped me too. The one I remember and still use when my brain is in high gear is...

-Lay flat on back in bed

-close eyes and breathe (that part was hard for me)

-imagine yourself on a beach, where the surf at its highest point is touching your feet

-as each wave of warm water slowly covers you.. tighten the muscles starting with your toes feet.. then tighten calves, thigh, naughty bits, belly, back, chest.. tightening the muscles and holding.. shoulders, biceps.. forearm all the way to fingers...

-now slowly let the wave go back out.. loosening the finger muscles.. forearm.. biceps.. in the same order you tightened them.. all the way to your toes..

--Don't forget to breathe and repeat this slowly.. focusing on each tightening and releasing of the muscles.. it helped me. LOTS .. and still does some nights.

:hug:

PS: If you master this, I hear you can learn to dreamleap... :D

EDIT: IF IT EVER SUCKS TOO BAD CALL 911 or a DOCTOR

[LeftyFingerPop]

26. Inchworm...

you are a good guy my friend. :hug: I have some serious physical health problems (but who doesn't really LOL) which sometimes overwhelm and contribute to some really bad depression.

I have been through this a million times, it will get better, and I know when I need to reach out like I just did.

Thanks a lot inchworm.

[Mutley]

23. i'm sorry.

I wish I could help in some other way than :hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

27. you already have...

and thank you :hug:

[grace0418]

24. I'm sorry philboy.

I don't have much advice but I can offer a :hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

28. thank you and...

back at you :hug:

[regularguy]

25. Hey, I recognize your name...

you're a funny guy. Hang in there man!

[LeftyFingerPop]

29. thanks man!

How am I funny? Like a clown? I'm here to amuse you? :rofl: Sorry, but I love the movie "Goodfellas". Thanks a lot regular guy. :hi:

[matcom]

30. HEY BUDDY!

:hi:

want some more cliches?

feel better dude

[LeftyFingerPop]

33. Thank you my friend...

:hi: :thumbsup:

[I Have A Dream]

31. I'm sending healing, peaceful vibes right now, philboy.

Remember to breath. :hug::hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

35. Thank you so much Dream...

:hug:

[BlackVelvet04]

32. Don't drink or eat anything with caffeine,

take deep slow breaths and if you have any calcium in the house take some calcium or eat or drink something with a lot of calcium in it.

Most of all try not to be fearful of the panic attack because that just prolongs it. A panic attack, while uncomfortable, won't hurt you.

I used to have panic attacks almost hourly but now the only time I have them is when I drink caffeine. Because I know what causes them I no longer fear them and they pass more quickly because of that.

[LeftyFingerPop]

36. Thank you so much...

that's very good thoughtful advice.

[BlackVelvet04]

39. If the panic attacks continue I would

suggest the program from the Midwest Center for Anxiety and Depression. It made all the difference in the world to me and I was able to get off the Xanax I took for so long. If you can find a way to deal with this without drugs I highly recommend you do do. Xanax is highly addictive and it was no fun coming off it.

[LibraLiz1973]

52. those Midwest tapes saved me

The panic went away.

Naturally it's been a few years since I did the program and over time I stopped doing the excercises.
I was just realizing that I need to break the tapes out again and JUST DO IT.


On Edit: I bought my tapes via Ebay because at the time the TV offer was waaaaaaaaaay to $$$.
Later I downloaded them via LimeWire for my iPod. Unfortunately I deleted it off my hard drive and
then my iPod died so it isn't on my new one yet.

[BlackVelvet04]

63. My tapes got lost in a move.....

I think I'll check ebay. It never hurts to do some refresher work.

[PurpleChez]

34. DO NOT FEEL HORRIBLE!!!

The horrible thing would be to "go it alone" when you needed a friend, and when there are friends on hand. You don't know me and I don't know you, but you can think of me as your DU pal. I check back here obsessively...if you want to leave a message I'll get back ASAP. I hope you're feeling better. Don't feel bad for being human.

[LeftyFingerPop]

38. Thnak you for...

those great kind words.

[PurpleChez]

41. Hey...ALMOST the least I could do!

Write again if the need arises! It's a S...L...O...W day at work!

[The Straight Story]

37. Hey my friend, I am too right now

I just got laid off this morning.

It helps to talk - and I can PM you my cell phone number for that.

I now have a sick wife, no insurance, and the only saving grace I have today is that my previous job is sending me the money from my 401k and pension so I will be able to survive for some time (plus I can get unemployment).

I have been with my wife 9 years, and was only unemployed a few months of that time while we moved and I found a new job. Today, as of 8am this morning PST, I am without work.

I felt the attacks you are talking about after mom died, scary fucked up panic attacks to where I could not even go to the store. And it made me feel worse about myself - and then I fed off that fear and it made me worse, made me hate myself for being weak and so on.

What I did not realize fully was that these attacks were not just mental, but physical too. And like all physical ailments I needed meds to help me out.

And what I did NOT need was people judging me, telling me to get over it, etc. It is like telling someone with cancer to just get over it - it ain't that simple :)

So what I will tell you here is - I consider you my friend here on DU, I love seeing you here each night, and I got your back. Don't suffer alone - reach out to others and vent and know I will listen to you.

Get some professional help - I did, and I probably will again in the near future. I am computer geek, and when a PC breaks people call me. You and I are people - and when our minds break due to whatever, we should call people who deal with that each day and get some help fixing it. I ain't a brain surgeon or a psychiatrist, so why should I try to fix issues with those things alone?

[LeftyFingerPop]

40. Oh shit Oh shit...

listen up Straight Story...

I'm so sorry for your layoff...I've been through a few and I know the emotions they evoke.

I got your back my friend...I was speaking to someone last night and we were talking about what a good guy you are.

You need to get through your immediate panic now...don't think about anything else. Try to calm yourself without working too hard at it.

When things calm down...I want you to understand that you both WILL be ok. It's just a job, and you will get another. Trust me, you will, I promise you will.

You will both be safe, and no harm will come to you because of the current job situation.

Trust me on this...I've been there...and while you think right now that your whole world has turned to shit...it has not.

I have been on meds for 7 years. I take 23 pills a day, 4 injections of insulin, and 2 injections of Byetta...every fucking day.

I understand exactly how you are feeling...RELAX...it will be ok.

When things calm down for both of us, I will like to chat to you privately.


:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[The Straight Story]

42. My good friend

I am calm about it now, though still crying off and on.

I can make it by, wife wants me to take a month off and relax. I might.

But I am the provider, and it hurts me that I am not doing that right now. As I said I will be able to get enough to scrimp by, and my father-in-law owns the house I am living in right now so I am not worried about that.

I will get another job, I am good at what I do. Today just hurt because, as with my last job, I worked myself out of a job. I got things done too fast and now I am not needed. So much for being a hard worker. On July 1 I lost a job I was with 5 years making good money. The main reason - my new boss said there was not enough work for me. She gave me a program to write by July 15th and I did it in 2 hours. I was on salary, working from home, doing basically nothing all day. A looong story on that job, but I decided to quit it (so they fired me....) and focus on the local job. From which I got laid off today from because I finished up all their projects and there was nothing else for me to do right now (and being the part timer I was the first to go).

I have a sick wife and a little girl who depend on me, if I lived alone it would not be an issue.

I will do ok, just going to take me a few days and a couple bottles of rum :) Already got some jobs in the pipe I am working on.

Again, it is a long story - but I have come to realize that working your ass off on your time to make things go well for a company can bite you in the ass.

I will make it ok, I am just still in shock as I have lost two jobs in two weeks because I spent too much time working. A paradox to me, but that is how it is....

[LeftyFingerPop]

48. The fact that you WANT to be...

the provider is more important than actually BEING the provider...from a moral standpoint anyway.

Your worth as a man and as a human being is never measured by your job...it is measured by your heart, your beliefs, and what you contribute to others.

You have marketable skills. I would follow your wife's suggestion and relax for a bit...you deserve it.

[The Straight Story]

72. Thank you my friend

Much needed words this day.

I have already re-written my resume and applied to some local jobs though :) Just could not help myself.

3 years of nothing but change - death, illness, and jobs. I DO need a break. But I also know I must strike when the iron is hot, and if something comes my way, then I will ride it out. If not, I will take some time to relax and maybe write that novel I have been working on for some time ;)

[BarenakedLady]

43. I'm so sorry

:hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

45. BNL...

thank you so much :hug:

[ThomCat]

44. I have no idea how to deal with panic attacks.

:(

I've never had one or known anyone personally who had them. I'm sorry. I hope you can ride it out. :hug:

Please be well.

[LeftyFingerPop]

46. It's already improved muchly Thom...

and thank you very much. :hug:

[Debi]

47. breathe in and breath out philboy

and here's to you :hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

49. thank you Debi

:hug:

[LibraLiz1973]

50. Phil, I know what your going through

as I've suffered from severe panic attacks for seventeen years.
Sometimes they are quite manageable and then other times... not so much.

Sending you TONS of positive vibes!!!
We all do care & will help you any way we can.

[LeftyFingerPop]

53. Liz...

thank you so much. I am very sorry to hear about your attacks. :hug: I suffer from depression, which is very well controlled normally, but I have never really experienced a true panic attack as I did today. They are very frightening, and my heart goes out to you.

[LibraLiz1973]

83. Phil..

I am SO GLAD to hear that you are feeling better- I read upthread that it had backed off.

Depression and Anxiety are both totally overwhelming at times.
I had attacks so bad at one point that I was unable to leave the house for almost a year.

I've come a long way since then- but panic attacks are scary. They make you change habits
and your world gets smaller and smaller. If I could turn back time, I'd have gotten help A LOT sooner.

[RetroLounge]

51. I've been there man, and it is sucky...

Mine came on after my marriage fell apart. Never had them before. I thought I was having a heart attack.

Can't give you any advice beyond what has been said.

For me, seeing a professional, some temporary meds, and meditation helped.

Hang in there. :hug:

RL

[LeftyFingerPop]

54. RL...

Thank you so much for your kind words. :hug:

You know what I love about the people here?

You are all so kind and non-judgmental...very hard to find a place like this in the everyday world.

I wish the very best for you.

[TOhioLiberal]

55. I'm so sorry phil...

...I have no advice for you. I've had something similar, after my mom died, but it was specific to that event. It wasn't a full-fledged attack either.

So have some sympathy and some hugs :hug::hug::grouphug::hug::hug: I'm here for ya. :)

[LeftyFingerPop]

56. awww.. thanks so much TOL...

and hugs back at you :hug: :hug:

[redqueen]

57. ...

:hug:

i hope you feel better soon...

i don't know what advice to give... but if i could give ya a hug i SO would.

[LeftyFingerPop]

58. That's so nice of you...

thank you :hug:

[billyskank]

59. Feeling better yet?

:pals:

[LeftyFingerPop]

60. Much better my freind...

thank you...not 100%, but on my way. Nice to see you Billy. :pals:

[MissMillie]

66. glad to hear it

I've never had an anxiety attack, so I have no sense of what should be done. Somehow the suggestion of "relax" seems ridiculous, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

:hug:

[ceile]

61. I had an attack this a.m. too.

My "cure" (I don't take meds for 'em) is to count back wards from 100 while breathing deep (I may do this 5, 6 times but it does eventually slow my breathing). Then I hop in a nice hot shower and just concentrate on the water-the sound of the water, the feel of the water.
I hope you feel better. I know how unsettling they can be. Chin up!

[LeftyFingerPop]

62. Thank you ceile...

sounds like good advice, and I am very glad this helps you. Thank you for your kind words, and best wishes to you.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

64. Hey Philboy!

I've had 20+ years of panic attacks, so I know exactly how you were feeling! :hi:

Some things you should know about panic attacks to help make them less scary for you if it happens again:

A panic attack is simply your body's fight or flight response gone a bit out of control. Your body perceived something as a threat to you and hit the accelerator. That something can be real ("Cheetah's gonna pounce on me!"/"Mortage is due and I am utterly broke!") or not ("My heart is racing a bit -- I must be having a heart attack -- I AM GOING TO DIE!!").

Whichever it is that brought on the panic attack, the physical symptoms (rapid heartbeat/sweating/chills/numbness/etc.) and mental symptoms (racing thoughts that you are dying/not real/are going to pass out) you go through can be frightening/confusing and cause you to panic even further.

Physiologocally what is happening to you is this: adrenaline has been dumped into your blood stream by your parasypathetic nervous system because of the percived threat. You started to breath faster and your heart began to beat more rapidly in response, overloading your system with carbon monixide (hyperventalation), which causes symptoms, including dizziness and the feeling you can't breath or catch your breath. At this point, these scary sypmtoms freak you out even more, and you dump more adrenaline into your system in response -- at that point, you have created a chemical loop in your body.

The single most important thing you must remember if you ever have another attack is the sypmtoms you are feeling will NOT kill you or make you go crazy. No matter how bad it is, no matter how uncomfortable you are, you are not going to die from them. I promise. :D

If you ever find yourself there again, do the following:

- Remind yourself that it is just a panic attack and that your are
not going to die or go crazy.

- Start rhythmic breathing -- three slow beats in, three slow beats out, and then HOLD for 7-10 slow beats -- that part is very important. You will want very badly to breath more quickly, but hang in there and stick with the breathing until the panic attack subsides (usually within 5 minutes). What you are doing is rebalancing your carbon monoxide levels and sending your body a new chemical message of "Time to relax, the threat is gone." If it is an emergency and you cannot control it with your breath, pull out the ol' paper bag and breath into it instead -- it will accomplish the very same thing. But I encourage you to master the breathing technique.

Panic attacks SUCK, big time. I hope you conquer yours. :hi:

[LeftyFingerPop]

67. This is some very...

interesting stuff...thanks a lot for posting this!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

69. You are very welcome!

:hi:

I suffered from panic attacks, depression, and agoraphobia for years -- did therapy, meds, the whole thing. Then I took a class at Kaiser and learned exactly what was happening to my body during an attack and why -- for me, demystifying all of that made me feel more in control and less "crazy". The breathing stuff has saved my bacon many, many times over the years. Using it, I have been able to work my way through almost every situation I have faced. I still take a few Xanax to get on airplanes, but otherwise the breathing and self talk is all I use now. :)

[BlueIris]

65. The only thing that helped me with panic disorder was meds.

But with the right med combo for me, and a great psychiatrist, I beat panic disorder for good. I've been attack-free now for almost ten years.

[LeftyFingerPop]

68. That is...

great news indeed BlueIris. I'm happy you were able to beat it!

[MsKandice01]

70. Fellow panic attack sufferer here...

This may sound crazy but something that always helped me was to go and Google panic attack symptoms and read them. It was really helpful to me to be able to reassure myself that it's just my mind playing crazy tricks on me and not that I'M GONNA DIE, which is what my mind keeps telling myself over and over again when I'm having one.

Also, taking slow, steady breaths, concentrating on keeping my breathing regulated helps me a lot also.

Just remember, you WILL get through this and it will NOT kill you, despite what your mind might be telling you right now. Hang in there, friend.

[LeftyFingerPop]

74. Thank you MsKandice

:hug: I guess its gone now, but I feel like I have been in a fistfight :(

[SeattleGirl]

71. I have panic disorder, and need to take meds to keep it under control.

Panic attacks feel awful. Hope you are feeling better today. :hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

75. SG...

thank you :hug:

[libodem]

73. I've heard

breathing into a paper bag slowly takes the edge off. Something about rebreathing the air slows the air hunger.

[LeftyFingerPop]

76. Thank you...

I will remember that.

[no name no slogan]

77. If it's real bad, go to the emergency room

SERIOUSLY. Dial 911 if you can't get there yourself.

[LeftyFingerPop]

78. Thank you...

it's ok now. I survived...I think ;)

[lost-in-nj]

79. I for one

am glad......

:hug: :hug:
care about you......
I just had a glass of wine.... did you?

maybe we can have a drink together in a few???
:)
i am going to have a beer or 3 in a while (LOL)



lost

[LeftyFingerPop]

81. Thank you lost...

:hug: I'm afraid i would need a direct injection of grain alcohol to kill this feeling :rofl:

[lost-in-nj]

84. I have some Romanian

hooch in my cabinet

made from plums.... all you have to do is smell this.....
the fire department should know its here LOL
blows you away...... Want some???? :P

come on down!!!!!


lost

[Dastard Stepchild]

80. I see you got a lot of support...

I also have a lifelong history of panic attacks. My most recent was just a few weeks back. I took a very brief walk, did a lot of calming self-talk to get myself over the hump and then spent the rest of the night taking it easy, watching funny videos and solving crosswords. I find that I need to inundate myself with distractions to get over the initial attack and the few hours afterward when I am feeling kind of creeped/spooked from the residual anxiety.

I can't really take meds right now, but they can be helpful. So can learning how to work through an attack when they come on. A lot of nurturing self-talk helps. And if you can identify one person that you trust that will help you through a bad one, I find that is good as well. I can call the husband anytime and anywhere if I am having one and he talks me through the worst of it. Before that it was my mom.

Best of luck to you!

[LeftyFingerPop]

82. sjbech...

Thank you for sharing this! :hug: The support here is incredible. My problem...I have trouble asking for help. I usually only do it when I am about at the end of my rope. Then I feel guilty for asking...then I have another panic attack :rofl: (oooops)

[darkstar]

85. Yo....philboy

Sorry I just saw this..Looks like you are doing better, and for that I am glad. I'm glad these good people of the lounge were here at the time and wished I could have chimed in with some support at the time (the wisdom of some would certainly not have been forthcoming.....)

Take care, friend.

:hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

86. Awww jeeeez...

thank you :hug:

[SPKrazy]

87. Aww Philboy!

glad you are better than when you started this.

panic does indeed pass, but it fucking sucks!

I've had panic attacks to the point of perhaps permanently being medicated for that.

Hang in there man, I know you are doing better, but what's on your plate must be horrible for you and I support you man!

:pals:

[LeftyFingerPop]

90. You...

are my good friend. And what is on my plate could certainly be worse, but I get overwhelmed sometimes. And truth be told, I look at this such as this as just another experience, because it truly is great to be alive my friend. Thank you SPK. :thumbsup: :pals:

[SPKrazy]

94. Yes, it beats the alternatives...

I think you are a good friend too philboy! :pals:

take care of yourself man, and don't hesitate to pm me or email if ya need to man!

:hi:

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

88. Just breathe my friend - just breathe ... slowly ... and breathe ...

I have had panic attacks many times and I know how you feel. I had a real bad one last year and it felt like my heart was coming out of my chest . Just breathe ...

[LeftyFingerPop]

91. ...

:hug:

[applegrove]

89. Belly breath. Shake your hands or pound your thighs to let the anger/fear

out.

[LeftyFingerPop]

92. Applegrove...

:hug: Doing much better now, Thank you.

[applegrove]

93. Good! Take Care.

[helderheid]

95. Whatever you need, we're here. I was plauged with these attacks for years. I'm with you.

[LeftyFingerPop]

97. Thank you...

:hug:

[helderheid]

112. Ugh - now I have one. Ugh Ugh Ugh!

[S n o w b a l l]

96. I'm so sorry Philboy....

It takes a wise and strong person to reach out for help when they need it. I'm so glad to see the loungers came through for you and so glad to hear you're doing better now. :hug:

Wish I could have been here today when you needed it, but you have my love and support always.
Get better soon darlin...the lounge needs you & your humor.

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

98. Engi darling...

When Im sad, you come to me
With a thousand smiles, you give to me free
Its alright you say its alright
Take anything you want from me, anything
Anything.

Fly on little wing... :hug: :loveya: :hug:

[S n o w b a l l]

106. I love that song :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jMpEVzrRbe8

I'm so glad you're feeling better.

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[MassLiberal]

99. glad to hear things are easing up a bit

Just saw your post now. I've been going through some serious anxiety issues with my teenage daughter so have great empathy for you. I can't offer a lot of practical advice, as I am new to this, but I can offer a :hug: and my support. I hope you're doing better. Maybe hugging your puppy would help? :-)

[LeftyFingerPop]

101. Thank you so much...

:hug: I appreciate your kind words, and I wish you and your daughter the best.

As far as hugging my puppy, I would, but when I hug him, he gets so excited he urinates on my arm :rofl:

[MassLiberal]

103. oh, yuck, can't have that!

LOL! The boy lurves ya, eh? :-)

[LeftyFingerPop]

104. LOL...

He loves everyone.:)

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

100. I am about to go to work now but I leave you this for comfort :

[LeftyFingerPop]

102. Thank you!

Delicious!

[philosophie_en_rose]

105. Deep Breaths.

And remember that we do care about you.

:loveya:

[LeftyFingerPop]

107. Thank you so much...

and I care about you and everyone here too :hug:

[TK421]

108. I get panic attacks sometimes....but not that much anymore

now I just cause panic in others ( just kidding ) Try to relax...I'm not sure what else to say, but a PM may be more useful than that :toast:

[LeftyFingerPop]

109. Thanks. its over except for some residual...

body pain. Things are good when the attack ends. :toast:

[TK421]

110. That's because my response made you laugh, I bet

come on....admit it, and I promise you won't have any more panic attacks

[raccoon]

111. Glad it's over. :hugs: nt

[Inchworm]

113. The Good > The Bad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6738705&mesg_id=6738705

:hi: