Is getting a lap dance a betrayal to your wedding vows?

[greenbriar]

be honest, no catty remarks

please

spouse A knows that spouse B would not like it and feel betrayed

spouse b has made their feelings quite known about cheating for the last 18 years

details come out one year later because offending spouse felt "guilty"

dirty deed was done while on vacation without spouse


We were in Vegas on Freemont street first night of our 3 day getaway without kids or computers or family...


in front of the offending place.


Thing is...I knew he went there with his brother, and I was cool with that...sort of...

but the lap dance confession felt like a gut punch

[DS1]

1. no, but a BJ in the vip room is

[matcom]

63. what if the glory hole group is meeting that night?

:yoiks:

[DS1]

78. They got 10 members?

I need to start keeping better track!

[matcom]

79. baker's dozen

[DS1]

97. i've seen that movie

:bounce:

[derby378]

2. Not if your wife talks someone into giving you a lap dance

It should go without saying that if your wife is the one giving you the lap dance, no worries.

Even with the revised criteria, I don't know if I can comment on it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. yes.

especially if you know your so wont like it.

[plcdude]

4. well

one would need more details to make a judgement.

[greenbriar]

7. did more detail help?

read post again

[bicentennial_baby]

5. It can be....depends on the marriage

If your spouse isn't comfortable with it, then yes.

[greenbriar]

6. tried to add more details

check original post

[plcdude]

12. I think

fidelity is in the eye of the beholder. If it is perceived to be a breaking then it is broke. Perhaps it is viewed as a bending that could be straightened out over time.

[Deja Q]

8. Yes.

[redqueen]

89. Nice.

I like that: straightforward and plain... no dancing around 'details'.

:thumbsup:

[maxsolomon]

9. a lap dance isn't sex. it isn't even a kiss.

r.e. guilt: "just cuz you feel it, doesn't mean its real." - thom yorke, radiohead.

next time, live with the guilt & keep your trap shut.

[greenbriar]

13. fuck you---I am not the one who is feeling guilty

I am the one that is looking at numbers in a phone book

[bicentennial_baby]

20. ...

:hug:

[maxsolomon]

62. yeeks - sorry i offended you

but there's times when its best to say nothing. honesty is not always the best policy. don't lie, but don't open cans of worms. i've learned that lesson myself through multiple errors.

the "you"s & "your"s in my original post were generic, not specific to your troubles.

[redqueen]

14. ahahahahaha

you know those women'll grind on ya, right?

and some guys get grinded on to 'completion'?

[plcdude]

21. that completion thing

is also a detail that needs to be considered.

[Deja Q]

23. As with movie and postage stamp collectors, some men just need to be completists...

:hide:

[bicentennial_baby]

18. Uh, depends on the lap dance....

Some of which are quite sexual in nature.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. what a distasteful post.

[bicentennial_baby]

25. agreed

:)

[maxsolomon]

69. i disagree

i've known couples who tried to be radically honest about sharing every thought & emotion. they broke up.

i know couples who just don't tell each other everything if they know if will hurt the other. they don't LIE, but every little thought running through your head isn't neccessary to share. more than likely you do this all day long at work, if not with your partner. if you're not CHEATING (and lap dances aren't cheating, they're tacky & overpriced, and you should be getting them at home, in theory), then why ruin the other's peace of mind to assuage your guilt?

again: just because you feel an emotion, doesn't mean you should share it. in buddhism, "i undertake the training to refrain from saying that which is not true or useful".

how is assuaging one's guilt by hurting your partner "useful"?

[redqueen]

77. excellent post. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

85. did you write this post originally? what you wrote was a few sentences of hogwash

had you written what you just posted, i wouldnt have called it distasteful

[redqueen]

10. If you know the person would be hurt, then no question: YES!

*sigh*

[supernova]

11. If the offended spouse

is hurt or would be hurt by it, then yes.

What I don't understand is the insistence on doing something that the offending spouse knows ahead of time would be hurtful. :shrug:

edit: Suggested remedy, teach spouse to give lap dances. ;-)

[greenbriar]

17. this spouse will be lucky to EVER

have sex again in the near future

[PeaceNikki]

19. My opinion - passive agressive "sex as a weapon" bullshit is FAR worse than a lap-dance

ANY day.

[greenbriar]

22. not a weapon--- a loss of something that was pure, beautiful and loving

is now just meaningless sex

[PeaceNikki]

27. Seriously?? A fucking trip to a club... once in EIGHTEEN YEARS!?

Wow. It's sad if your relationship was really that weak that this would have such an impact.

[redqueen]

38. TRUST is a very fragile thing.

if you value the person you're with, best not to test it.

[PeaceNikki]

42. Very good point.

Absolutely.

However, if an 18 year marriage can be tested to the degree that the OP is making out over a lap-dance, then I see red flags all over the place. My guess is that this is one teeny tiny piece of a relationship with a bunch of other issues under the surface.

I stand by my statement above regarding passive aggressive "punishment" behavior as being as damaging, if not MORE than the action itself that mitigated it.

If person "B" values the marriage, they'd express their hurt and feelings and work with person A to forgive and move past it.

[redqueen]

46. Oh yeah... *definitely* more to it than this...

another post stated that person getting a lap dance was upset if another person of their sex so much as talked to their spouse, so... yeah... I bet there's LOTS more that's built up over those 18 long, long years.

[supernova]

59. Oh yeah.

There's an ocean here, not being said.

Lap dance is the symptom, not the disease.

Saying that, we aren't the best audience. :D

[greenbriar]

39. no twice in 18 years and we had an understanding after the first time

and if I so much as look at another man wrong, I get horrible treatment


if I ever did that, he woudl have left me where I was standing

but I am supposed to take it because my "boobs were bigger" and he was "bringing it home to me"

I don't think so

[bicentennial_baby]

41. No offense, but, he sounds like a first-class

asshole. Ugh. :hug:

[redqueen]

49. There are so many of those...

I even know this couple in an open relationship, but only the guy can let his adventures be known... he can't tolerate hearing hers... she has to hide hers, while he flaunts his.

Unreal...

[bicentennial_baby]

53. Been there!

A long ago, horrible relationship....yeah, I don't do that open relationship crap anymore. Ugh. My ex...cheated on me on my b-day, told me a year later, b/c he felt 'bad'. :puke:

[greenbriar]

86. Just a few hours before, we had our own little fun

I even dressed up with some things we took some pictures ect...


now I feel he was just trying to get me to look like one of them

[redqueen]

90. oh no...

that has to hurt

i'm so sorry...

:pals:

[bicentennial_baby]

108. What a yucky feeling!!

x(

:hug:

[PeaceNikki]

45. My gut says that the marriage was on rocks WAY before the lap dance.

[greenbriar]

47. your gut is wrong, until said confession, this marriage was

great

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. for someone with peace in their username, you are awfully quick to judge

and be uneasily harsh and aggressive.

[PeaceNikki]

66. The OP made indications in # 39 that lead a reader to a pretty clear

conclusion that this relationship is not sunshine and lollipops. I disagree fundamentally with the idea of equating lap-dances as "cheating" as a whole. A betrayal of trust after the issue had been discussed - absolutely. Cheating... no. Especially at a club on the strip in Vegas.

I disagree that I am being aggressive, but feel free to judge me as such.

[redqueen]

75. Did you see my post about 'completion'?

It's common for these dancers to grind on the client during a lap dance, and for there to be a release.

How do you know that this person didn't get the happy ending, and that's the source of the guilt, which drove him to confess?

Lap dances can ABSOLUTELY be cheating.

[PeaceNikki]

80. I don't think it's "common" at all. Especially not on the strip in Vegas.

I know some dancers.

[redqueen]

82. Well I dunno...

never been to vegas... but I've heard too many stories about that crap to think lap dances are all automatically innocent fun.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. if it was so innocent why couldnt men just sit around a bar drinking

if it has nothing to do with sex and sexuality, whats the difference between a regular bar and a strip club

[redqueen]

91. Well in my opinion...

it's just cheating. Period.

In my opinion, penetration is SO not the only way to cheat on someone.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

92. i know. penetration is also not the only way to have sex

:P

[redqueen]

94. exactly!

sharing a sexual thing like that... it baffles me that so many don't consider it cheating... but... that's the culture we live in, i guess.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. i know several dancers, who often complained that some men do orgasm from lap dances

[lildreamer316]

112. Well; I've been dancing for 13 years and never done so.

Guess I'm weird.:shrug:

on edit: or VERY bad at my job!

[Zywiec]

43. Yes apparently everything was pure, beautiful and loving

for the other 6569 days, but the 1 day negated all of that.

[mzteris]

117. if you'll deliberately do something

that you know your spouse finds offensive - and then LIE about it for a - oh - a year.

and then decide to "confess" because YOU feel "guilty" -

Well, yeah.

If you'll do it once, and lie - you'll probably do it twice, three, a dozen, twenty, a thousand times.

How does the trust ever come back?

30 secs of fun to destroy your and you "loved one's" life?

woo. hoo.

[supernova]

26. I agree with you

and it works in both directions.

These two would be better off finding out what the problem is instead of going to their separate corners to either Partner A) Sulk or Partner B) Find a lap dance in the yellow pages.

Either way, I don't see this playing out well.


All feliciations to the OP.

[plcdude]

31. exactly

they need to talk this out and listen to each other as empathetically as they can. I don't think it is the end of the world for them but it is an opportunity to build intimacy.

[supernova]

60. Yes,

[Zywiec]

15. I feel bad for spouse A. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

16. That's a question to be answered only by the parties involved.

However, I don't look at reputable strip clubs, even a lap dance, as "cheating" at all. I think excess of anything is dangerous, but an occasional (what, once in 18 years?) night out is completely within reason.

I would have a real problem being in a relationship with someone who would consider a once in a blue-moon excursion like that to be a betrayal, cheating or a "dirty deed".

[maxsolomon]

70. where's a "reputable strip club"?

because i want to make sure i don't go there!

[PeaceNikki]

71. Heh...

:D

I agree with your posts upthread.

[acmavm]

28. Would the party who got the lap dance feel it was a betrayal if the other

person did the same thing?

[greenbriar]

34. oh yea... the other spouse gets incensed if a person of opposite sex even talks to

said spouse

[redqueen]

40. TYPICAL!

Or... stereotypical, I should say.

[Mutley]

29. No.

As long as it's just a lap dance, and not sex or kissing. Or other intimate things of that nature. But of course, everyone will feel differently about this, and that's just one of those issues people need to be able to work out or tolerate about someone they're with. Or just break up.

Now, it is cheating if Spouse A made it clear he/she felt that way, but Spouse B did it anyway.

[Breeze54]

30. I'd kick spouse A's ass, if I was spouse B!

Vows are vows. promises are promises.

If spouse A wants to go outside the marriage, then they shouldn't be married.

[havocmom]

51. And I would spell ya when ya got tired!

Might bring a horse whip too.

[Adsos Letter]

32. I think it depends on how spouse B feels about it...

these things vary fro couple to couple, I suppose.

[havocmom]

33. Spouse A knew it would hurt and did it anyway?

Spouse A is a fool, a louse or both.

Bad enough to do it, knowing mate would not approve and would feel very hurt. But then, to go and admit it to assuage feelings of guilt! Unfuckingbelievably cold! Why make spouse feel bad just because guilty party FELT GUITLY!

:grr:

Betrayal. BIG TIME. To argue otherwise is just an attempt to parse words in order to avoid facing reality.

Too bad about your instructions for no catty remarks. Me thinks thou doth duck responsibility too much.

[greenbriar]

36. I am so pissed right now

I was told that It was my problem if I had issues with it

its not like he fucked her

besides my boobs were better and he was "bringing it home to me"


This was our first night in Vegas on what was supposed to be a cool 3 days just the two of us.


for me, then the rest of the trip was shitty

[bicentennial_baby]

37. One issue I see is with the 1 yr lapse in telling you...

I've had that happen, except it was actual sex. On my birthday. x(

I'd recommend counseling. :hug:

[Breeze54]

44. It's not YOUR problem and you know it.

He's sidestepping and I wonder what else he's doing/done!

You have a right to your feelings and you aren't crazy but he's deceitful.

:hug:

Been there, done that. Got out after ten yrs of BS!

I'm so sorry he had to lay his guilt trip on you like that. :hug:

Does he feel relieved of his guilt now?

What a jerk!!

[mzteris]

118. Sure he feels relieved of guilt now.

Now he can feel righteously indignant and blame her for "overreacting". And if she'd've acted like he wanted, he *probably* wouldn't have done it in the first place. (yeah. right.)

Bringing it home to her.

bwwwwaaaahaaaaaaaa. Cause he didn't have enough to pay the hooker, or what?

WOW. What a freakint COMPLIMENT THAT is.

Hey, I went out and paid to get all turned on so I could do you (in like 30 sec or less.) Ain't you proud of me?



:puke:

[havocmom]

50. sorry bout the last remark. I thought this was posted by the bad boy

Yep, so pissed you can't see straight is the correct response!

Too many men do not understand that betrayal does not occur at the point they dip their wick in some other pot. Too many do not appreciate it is the mental betrayal that hurts most women.

And how lovely that he picked the beginning of a trip to tell confess SO HE WOULD FEEL BETTER :grr:

My dear, take it from a sadder, wiser, and probably much older girl... he may well want out, but doesn't have the balls to be honest about it. Some ball-less wonders will provoke until the other spouse does their dirty work for them.

Now, you could be a real hard ass and make him do it himself. (Which is what I did, and has pluses and minuses) or you could consider that you are better off without him and get a good lawyer to do your bidding. I do know you need some strong advocate at this point; either lawyer or counselor to help you sort things out in your head first.

What ever you decide, make DAMN sure you take care of yourself first and don't worry much about him (something I failed to do and do regret).

Mostly, my dear, do what it takes to feel good yourself. And keep in touch if you want. I care. You can PM and vent if you need to and want to.

hm

[greenbriar]

57. He was a bit sloshed and we were in Vegas on Freemont street

in front of the offending place.


Thing is...I knew he went there with his brother, and I was cool with that...sort of...

but the lap dance confession felt like a gut punch

[redqueen]

54. It's NOT your problem!

FUCKSAKE that shit pisses me off!

It's a PERSONAL issue... if it upsets you it just does... it's not your problem it's just how you feel! SHIT!

I hate that 'bringing it home' patronizing CRAP, too... fuck that shit... he KNEW it would hurt you but did it anyway... greedy! selfish! inconsiderate! DOGHOUSE TIME!

[flvegan]

56. AAAAACCCKKKK!!!

Where do I even begin with this...

No, jacko, that's an "our" problem thing. You don't get to beg out of it because YOU don't have a problem with it.

It's not like he fucked her...to him. If he knew that you'd feel like he had, then that's what matters.

Yes, you little prince, you, give her the "but you have better tits" line. That always works. That dancer was doing you a favor, love, cuz I brought my massive love missle home to take care of you.

[flvegan]

35. "spouse A knows that spouse B would not like it and feel betrayed"

If spouse A knows that spouse B would not like it and feel betrayed, then the wedding vows don't really matter. Love, honor, cherish, etc are just words unless they truly reflect their meaning, which INCLUDES not knowingly making spouse B feel betrayed.

Betrayal is betrayal, regardless.

[havocmom]

55. BINGO. Betrayal is not the same as a moistened wick!

And grown men know the difference and don't try to duck responsibility to their mates by parsing words like a lawyer.

[bigwillq]

48. I say no but

if spouse B already said they wouldn't like it and has expressed concern about cheating, I am guessing that spouse b would consider this cheating, then I think it was wrong of spouse A to do this.

If the two have worked out agreements in the past and the two agreed that it was all in good fun then I would say it would be ok to do it.

[seemunkee]

58. I would have said maybe but after reading the whole thread

Yes.
I know how my wife would feel and wouldn't do it. Hell, I know how my wife would feel about some of the innocent flirting that goes on here so I don't do it.

[matcom]

64. what happens in Vegas....

oh hell :hide:

[redqueen]

83. Hah...

now I'm thinkin about that billboard from Chicago... and that online dating service commercial about how just looking is ok.

[regnaD kciN]

65. I'm trying to figure out why you posted a poll in the first place...

...since it sounds to me like you made up your mind already. I seriously doubt that, even if the results had been 100% "no," you would have let it affect your predetermined conclusion of "yes."

So, given that, why the poll? :shrug:

[Breeze54]

67. Just a way to break the ice on this topic?

:shrug:

[havocmom]

73. Makes sense. Takes a lot of courage to even make the oblique references

Poking a painful injury takes guts.

[Breeze54]

87. Yes it does. It takes a lot of courage.

;)

[greenbriar]

68. because I wanted to find out how casual people think of them

which was why the spouse A and B bullshit, but then it got personal

[maxsolomon]

72. mods should lock this thread

no good will come of it.

[havocmom]

76. What, people can't ask a question to gain perspective?

Yeah, perspective is so dangerous and all. So is some support when one is hurt.
:eyes:

[maxsolomon]

81. see post 13

n/t

[havocmom]

93. Poster is the injured party

If she wants to look up numbers, more power to her. Personally, a lawyer and/or counselor would be a good help about now. And one can start by looking up numbers in a phone book

[havocmom]

74. you have mail

:hi:

[skygazer]

95. No, getting a lap dance is usually not a betrayal of your marriage vows

Doing something you know and have been told straight out that your spouse disapproves of and would be hurt by is a betrayal of your wedding vows.

Greenbriar, you say in another post that up until this, your marrige was solid and wonderful and everything else but then you mention in other posts that 1. this is the second time something like this happened 2. that he throws a fit if another guy so much as looks at you and 3. that he told you it was your problem and at least he was "bringing it home to you." :puke:

Honey, that sounds like a lot of problems to me. This is just a message board and I don't know you or him but from your description, he sounds like he's got some control issues and that he does not respect your wishes. At all.

I'm sorry you're hurt and I don't blame you. Like I said, I don't know either of you but your description has red flags popping up all over the place for me. :hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

96. what a well thought out and considerate post.

:thumbsup:

[greenbriar]

98. well, after reading all this I must say I agree

I guess I was just ignoring the minor shit, but to me, this isn't minor

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. and that is all that matters. it wouldnt be minor to me either.

[lildreamer316]

114. I'm a dancer and I approve of this message ^^^.

Greebriar, I am truly sorry that he is treating you this way. I hope that you can accept that coming from one in this profession. He should not have gone to the club and gotten a dance when it was clearly something that he KNEW you would feel betrayed by. It's bullshit and I hope that this will not happen to you again.

As a dancer I do not want men like this at my club. I know it happens; I know reality; but I am truly, honestly saying that if I sense or am made aware in ANY way that my dance will cause serious trouble for someone; I usually walk away from it. I don't want to be any more involved than I already am in causing another pain, even inadverntently. For the record, I also do not "grind to completion"; I don't even touch the lap of the person getting the dance. I was not taught that way. But, of course that is not true for many clubs and dancers.

I hope that things get better for you. And I hope that the spouse will stay out of strip clubs.

[RetroLounge]

100. a betrayal to your wedding vows?

No.

But a betrayal, yes. Sleazy, yes. Wrong, yes. A trust issue, yes.

But it really should take more than one lap dance to toss the vows.

But I'm a bit touchy about so-called vows these days.

Sorry this happened to you. Your feelings are legit, and don't let him parse his way out of it.

RL

[KitchenWitch]

101. Personally? I would be pissed

Not sure if I would go as far as looking for divorce lawyers, but yeah, that would be a betrayal of my trust. My husband knows how I feel about that, and for him to go and have a lap dance, knowing full well that I would be hurt, would be downright mean and selfish.

[SarahB]

102. It depends on the individual relationship.

It would bother me if it was something behind my back. That's about it. Otherwise it wouldn't bother me. However, no matter what a person's boundaries are within a relationship, what's important is honesty, communication, and respect for your partner.

[grace0418]

103. It's icky, but I wouldn't say it's a betrayal.

It would be so out of character for my husband I'm having a hard time picturing it though.

[NC_Nurse]

104. Not my marriage, not my place to say.

Every marriage is different, IMHO.

[DS1]

105. How about photoshopping yourself into another woman's bedroom?

[SarahB]

106. Does this mean her right boob has an aversion to meat?

:shrug:

[DS1]

107. and that side doesn't need the wire

it can hold itself up just fine, thanks

:7

[matcom]

109. I am NOWHERE in that pic!

:cry:

the love is gone

[Rabrrrrrr]

110. Only if one thinks it is. And then one must ask the question, "Is it a critical violation,

or a silly violation?"

That is, is it a divorcable action or a "I wish you hadn't, but there it is, let's move on" kind of action.

Speaking personally, the only thing I would find wrong with it is the waste of money it (and any presence at a strip club) represents. Wouldn't bother me at all - it's just a lap dance, for God's sake, I would say. It's not an affair, it's not hidden, it's admitted to, it's an action one does with a stranger for a moment of good feeling and whoopty fucking doo.

[LeftyMom]

111. Doing something hurtful for no good reason is kinda shitty.

Generally one is expected to go out of their way not to do shitty things to somebody they love, vows or no.

[eyesroll]

113. Wouldn't be to mine, if my SO and I were married. But I'm not you.

A lot of people upthread have a lot of good to say -- if he did it knowing you'd be pissed, then felt he needed to hide it, and you were indeed pissed, then something is wrong and has been.

I wouldn't want to trash a 20-year relationship over it...but, as people have pointed out, you probably wouldn't either unless there were other problems. Address those; that's probably the bigger issue.

Best of luck to you.

[SPKrazy]

115. Wouldn't that depend on your wedding vows

and any understanding you had?

It would have been for me, but some have different ideas and standards...

:shrug:

[Elidor]

116. Wedding vows are one in a lifetime

Whereas a good lap dance can happen every Saturday night.

Perspective is everything.

[LostInAnomie]

119. If it's done by a stripper, I would say no.

If it's done by someone he's or she knows or just met, then yes.

As much as people like to imagine strippers to be the symbol of unrestrained lust and sexuality it's really just a job to them. They could really care less about the person getting the dance and most strip club patrons know that. It couldn't actually get sexual even if the man wanted to.

I've gotten lap dances before as part of a night out with the guys and for the most part it's about as far from sexual as it can get. Sure there are boobs and sexual movements involved but it's awkward, and it's mostly done for laughs instead of sexual gratification.

My guess would be that if he came home and told you about it it wasn't done for sexual reasons. It was probably done for a laugh and he wanted to let you in on it.

[Danger Mouse]

120. I say yes, especially if spouse B has made it crystal clear about their feelings on the matter.

That's my perspective, but if spouse B made it so clear, why would spouse A even consider it? It's a betrayal of the expectations of the relationship. Everyone has different standards. A healthy relationship is built on respect for the standards of your spouse.