Pete Rose vs. Barry Bonds - who committed the worse crimes against baseball

[LynneSin]

Pete Rose - major league hits leader but got himself banned for baseball for betting on the game (while he was a manager).

Barry Bonds - soon to be major league home run leader who got most of his home runs while on steroids or some form of growth hormone. He's never officially been implicated but enough evidence has come out against him.

Who has committed the worst crime against baseball.

For all the beef you might have against Pete Rose, the man did earn those hits from his own hustle. Pete pretty much maintained the same size & body frame but just had a natural knack of getting the base hit when needed. The cheating was wrong, but it was done while he was a manager - which is why I think Pete should be in the hall of fame. The man did not do steroids to gain his record and I highly doubt that his gambling in anyway helped boost his hits total.

So who has done the biggest disservice to Major League Baseball between these 2 men?

[Oeditpus Rex]

1. I knew I shoulda bought Jiffy Pop stock

:popcorn:

[LynneSin]

2. You want to make money - buy the machine!

[Oeditpus Rex]

3. Then I'd hafta work

I'd rather just sit back and enjoy the dividend parade.

:popcorn:

[LynneSin]

5. You can set up the profit margin on the popcorn that would allow you to

hire some 13 year old kid to run your business. Just pay the kid 5cents per box sold and I think you could still come out with a $1 margin profit per box.

Plus with underage kids you don't need to provide health insurance since hopefully either their parents have insurance or they are covered under their state's CHiPs program

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. You seem to know this stuff

Sure you're a Dem?

:popcorn:

[LynneSin]

8. Are you sure you're a democratic?

You seem pretty clueless, which is the first tell-tale sign of a republican

[JVS]

4. Pete's ban is right. Bond's lack of a ban is wrong.

If the commisioner ever reverses the decision on Rose, the authority of commisioner will be undermined and that would be bad.

[LynneSin]

6. I don't care if Rose can never manage in baseball again

I think the asshole should be in the hall of fame. Those numbers were earned with absolutely nothing to do with his gambling problem.

If we leave Rose out then we need to judge the merits of everyone else in the Hall of Fame. Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth would probably be the first 2 to be banned from the Hall of Fame

[Oeditpus Rex]

9. Why Ruth?

I understand about Cobb. But, Ruth? :shrug:

[ohiosmith]

10. You ain't wrong.

[JVS]

12. What rules of MLB did Cobb and Ruth break?

Was Cobb a mean SOB, yeah, but that's not what the ban is about. Shooting people, beating your wife, beating up a man with no arms, and being a racist scumbag are all bad things, but none were expressly forbidden by MLB rules. Besides, Cobb was a better hitter than Rose because he got slightly fewer hits with a shitload less at bats.

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. No arms? Shooting people?

The fan Cobb went after had lost most of the fingers on each hand. In addition, Cobb's resulting suspension prompted eight or 10 Tigers to refuse to play until he was reinstated. They heard the guy yelling at him throughout the game and said it was way over the top. And for Cobb's teammates to side with him, it must've been.

Whom did he shoot? I've read a great deal about Cobb and I recall nothing about him shooting anyone.

The guy was crazy enough. His reputation doesn't need distortion.

[Maccagirl]

27. I thought his mother shot his abusive father

but I'll google to find out.
Edited: Yes, his mother shot his father while he was outside of their bedroom trying to find evidence of her infidelity. She was tried and acquitted.

[IndianaJones]

13. Pete Rose used performance enhancing drugs as well...

Why is Bonds different?

[LynneSin]

15. That was Pete Rose Jr.

There was very little controversy about Senior using the juice

[IndianaJones]

17. Incorrect...Rose admitted in an interview to using amphetamines...

although he draws a line between the use of speed as a performance enhancer and steroids. Do you draw that line as well?

[Oeditpus Rex]

22. Anyone who doesn't is pretty ignorant

Taking a "greenie" is equivalent to drinking four or five cups of coffee. It gives you empty energy. Anabolic steroids and human growth hormone quite obviously do much more.

[LynneSin]

23. Seriously

So should we ban every player who drank 4-5 cups of coffee a day

:crazy:

[IndianaJones]

26. Why has the use of amphetamine been banned from Olympic competition...

Why is it classified as a performance enhancing drug? Masking the effects of fatigue is an edge an amphetamine user will have over his non-using competition. Does this not constitute an unfair advantage to you? Perhaps these governing bodies are incorrect in their classification of amphetamine?

[IndianaJones]

25. I will not argue that you are correct about the effects of one being...

greater. However, amphetamines have long been classified as a performance enhancing drug. Is it then ok to use one performance enhacer, if its effects are less than that of, say, anabolic steroids?

[LynneSin]

28. First we're talking baseball - not Olympics

And the effects of Amphetamines on a player is a far cry of what steriods does to a player

[IndianaJones]

30. Baseball only recently banned steroids as well as amphetamines as performance enhancers...

Is your view that steroids boost performance too much, and amphetamines do not? Or do you feel that amphetamine do not do anything to enhance performance?

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. Caffeine in sufficient amounts

will produce results similar to that of amphetamines. So will ephedra, which is legal. So might sugar; oranges are a traditional halftime "boost" in soccer because they contain fructose.

Should athletes be allowed to use amphetamines? Of course not. For one thing, their use or even possession is illegal without a prescription, and athletes are not above the law. But if you want to say "All performance enhancers are equally 'cheating' and should be treated as such," then you'll have to adjust the criminal codes of every state accordingly, since it would follow that driving five mph over the speed limit is as bad as driving 50 mph over.

[IndianaJones]

40. There are certainly levels to many violations...

however, if one was to steal a candy bar or steal a diamond ring, that person is a thief. I am not familiar with the levels of cheating that those that villify Bonds use, but if he is labeled as a cheater for allegedly enhancing his on field performance using steroids, is Rose not a cheater as well for allegedly enhancing his on field performance using amphetamines? Is the pardon for Rose, Mays or Aaron simply that the enhancers they allegedly used were not as effective as the ones Bonds allegedly used? Is Bonds a huge cheater and Rose simply a regular cheater? Is it possible to be a little cheater?

I guess the question is, are performance enhancing drugs cheating or are only the performance enhancing drugs Barry Bonds allegedly used cheating?

[Oeditpus Rex]

44. The question is the one you posed before that

"Is it possible to be a little cheater?"

Yes. Almost all systems of societal regulation — legal, moral, ethical — recognize degrees of violation and according punishment. Those that don't are termed "zero tolerance."

That prompts the question, "Is 'zero tolerance' a good system?" Most here say no, and I'm among them.

[IndianaJones]

46. But amphetamines are accorded a different penalty system...

the question still remains. Does gaining an edge on your competition through use of performance enhancing drugs make you a cheater? Amphetamines are universally recognized as such, and medical personnel see them as a much bigger concern in baseball than steroids. How many of Rose's hits were gained when he played in a game he would not have played in without the use of amphetamine? How many of Willie Mays homeruns were hit in games where he used amphetamine? Amphetamine was not a banned substance in baseball at that time. Does that still make players that used them cheaters?

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. I'm still waiting for evidence

to support the claim that amphetamines actually enhance performance.

Jim Bouton wrote in "Ball Four" that he thought "greenies" only made him feel like he was pitching better. "The result is, you get gay, throw it down the middle and get clobbered," he wrote.

More from Bouton (who's the only athlete I know of who's spoken candidly about this):

I asked Bouton if he could compare and contrast the use of steroids with that of greenies (amphetamines), and he characterized it this way: greenies are “performance enablers,” while steroids are “performance enhancers.” Greenies, Bouton said, are something players in his day would use to help recover from a hangover, to get back to normal or something approximating it, but they didn’t actually develop muscle. In his view the two drugs aren’t comparable.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-tht-interview-jim-bouton/

If you're going to pursue the "cheating is cheating" meme, we'll remain at stalemate.

[IndianaJones]

54. I believe the evidence is easy to find through simple web search..

the mere fact that it is classified as such by the major sports governing bodies, the IOC, professional biking, medical experts, landmark study at Harvard in the early 60's that showed improvement in 75% of athletes using the drug.

If we cannot even agree that amphetamine is classified as a performance enhancing drug by baseball and other sports bodies because it does, in fact, enhance on field performance then we are at a stalemate.

[Oeditpus Rex]

57. That isn't the nature of the argument

and it's disingenuous to insist that it is.

The nature of the argument is whether there are degrees of cheating that should be punished accordingly. I say there are; you say there aren't.

[IndianaJones]

75. I have acknowledged there are degrees....

and even pointed out the degrees of difference between steroids and amphetamine in baseballs drug policy. I do not dispute this difference and agree that steroids enhance performance to a greater degree than amphetamine. My assertion is that to label Bonds a cheater while glossing over the alleged use of performance enhancing drugs by legends of yesteryear is, in my mind, hypocritical. The fact remains that many of these players used a drug that is universally classified as a performance enhancer, was ignored and buried for years by baseball, and has only recently, along with steroids, been banned. To characterize Bonds, who did not break rules of baseball even if allegations of steroid use are true, as a cheater, while giving a pass to those that did the same thing, albeit to a lesser degree is disingenuous. While I have read many of your posts and can see that you are much more knowledgeable than the average or casual fan, I would submit that most people that would use such language to describe Bonds are unaware of the rampant use of amphetamine for decades in baseball. Are unaware of the derogatory term "playing naked" reserved for those that would not use for the good of the team, and are unaware of the long history of amphetamine as a performance enhancing drug in sports and other walks of life. It is regulated for a reason. To say it is like caffeine or just "diet pills" is, to me, disingenous.

While we disagree on this subject, and most likely many others, I do respect your considerable knowledge of the game and it is refreshing to have a civil discussion with someone familiar with the history involved.

[IndianaJones]

31. To be completely accurate, ampetamine decrease fatigue, increase concentration...

and therefore, enhance on field performance.

[driver8]

73. A lot of ball players in the seventies were using speed.

That doesn't make it right, but don't single Pete Rose out for that.

[IndianaJones]

76. Not singling Rose out, just comparing the reaction to players...

of that era using a performance enhancing drug vs the reaction to Bonds.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

11. I dont give a shit if someone bet

I care if they juiced

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

37. I don't care if he bet on his team to WIN

If he bet his team would LOSE, that would be a problem. Or if he bet they wouldn't make the spread. Any bet that rewards doing less then his best is a problem.

Players' and managers' job is to WIN. If they bet on their team, no big deal.

[JVS]

50. There is still a conflict of interests

Suppose I am coach and I bet on my game with the Twins. The twins are providing some real tough competition, so I use up all my best pitchers to eek out the win. After that it's off to Kansas City to play the Royals. The Royals, as usual, suck, but because I wasted all the talent on that Twins game, we get swept. By doing this, I have put my interests ahead of that of the organization.

[pokerfan]

63. Same point I was going to make

Rose's defense that he only bet on his team to win is bogus.

It also didn't help that it took him 14 years to admit that he bet on baseball at all.

It's a conflict of interest that also threatens the integrity of the game.

[IndianaJones]

14. Why do you not include Rose's use of amphetamines as a performance enhancer? nt.

[JVS]

16. Because Pete Rose is white

[LynneSin]

24. If this was Mark Magwire chasing the record I'd have the same exact issue

He was juiced just as much as Bonds

[JVS]

47. I was joshing Lynne

although I have seen people claim that Bonds is hated for his blackness.

[LynneSin]

19. What - for taking what he thought was diet pills

Back in his days most people thought the green pills were diet pills. Big difference between that and knowingly taking steriods to pump your home run record

[IndianaJones]

20. So Rose's claims of ignorance in taking a performance enhancing drug...

when it use was widespread in baseball are credible, yet Bond's claims are not?

[reyd reid reed]

18. Both are valid...and I never thought I'd say it, but the one that's worse

(even though it's not baseball) is the NBA official who's been betting on games he was officiating. And got in so deep that now he's been charged with shaving points.

[bertha katzenengel]

29. much as i don't want bonds to break the record, i have to say rose

i dug charlie hustle, but he bet on the game. he bet on the game! he's in a special section of the bizarro cooperstown with the Black Sox.

[LostinVA]

32. Rose wasn't a cheat

[LynneSin]

33. Oh but he took DIET PILLS

:grr:

Like I can compare a few greenies to what steriods does to the body

:grr:

[IndianaJones]

41. Actually he took amphetamines, prescribed illegally by a doctor...

at his own request and the request of some of his teammates.

[Oeditpus Rex]

36. Yes, he was

He broke one of baseball's most long-standing rules.

But let's look at effect for a minute: Rose bet on some ball games. Did that affect their outcome? Probably not, since no evidence was ever found that he bet against the Reds while managing them. Baseball's brain trust was more concerned with the effect on "the integrity of the game," which is rather a difficult concept to define (not unlike "Our nation's moral fiber").

Steroid use, on the other hand, obviously affected the outcome of games as well as individual accomplishments. It made a joke of baseball's record books in addition to instigating the biggest controversy over baseball's "integrity" since the Rose investigation.

We can determine for ourselves which we believe has had the greater effect on the game. In my mind, there's no comparison.

[Shakespeare]

55. And aside from the cheating issue, which I think is sufficient to keep him out of the hall...

I can never forgive him for:

1. The way he violently and unnecessarily took out Ray Fosse in the '73 All Star game (which dramatically shortened and lessened Fosse's very promising career).

2. Helping send Bart Giamatti to an early grave, robbing us not only of one of the best commissioners baseball's ever had, but of a true gentleman and scholar (one of Yale's best Renaissance scholars, to be specific).

All so goddamn unnecessary, and all for precious Pete's big fucking ego.

[Oeditpus Rex]

56. Fosse was blocking the plate without the ball

Rose had every right to knock him on his ass.

It's a shame that it messed up his career, but that's baseball — hell, that's sports. People get hurt.

And, yeah, I'm sure Rose triggered Giamatti's heart attack. Had nothing to do with the fact that he was overweight and a smoker.

[JVS]

58. Not only do people get hurt in sports, they get banned and that's fucking life

[Shakespeare]

59. Wow, harsh much? Every catcher doing his job blocks the plate.

But you generally don't see players--especially in a goddamn exhibition game--lowering their shoulder and coming in like a linebacker to inflict the maximum impact to get to the plate. The overwhelming concensus is that Rose went too far.

And I did not say that Rose caused Giamatti's heart attack; however, everybody who was familiar with the situation knew the greatly increased stress that Giamatti was under thanks to Rose and his ego and his petulance. It certainly didn't help.

But gee, Oedi, thanks for being especially nasty in disagreeing. As I stated perfectly clearly in my post, those two incidents are what color my personal opinion about Rose, and I specifically separated that from official reasons for keeping him out of the hall.

[JVS]

60. I hope the next baseball commisioner ends this controversy by shooting Rose...

and threatening to do the same to anyone who mentions Rose. Only then will we have healing.

[Oeditpus Rex]

61. It's against baseball's rules to block the plate without the ball

Rose was ENTITLED to the baseline and to touch the plate EVEN IF IT MEANT KNOCKING FOSSE OUT by THE RULES OF BASEBALL.

And you ain't seen me be "especially nasty" yet.

[Shakespeare]

62. I'm well aware of the rules of baseball.

And I'll stand by my opinion, and state again that I'm in good company with that opinion. Show me a catcher who won't do what Fosse did, and I'll show you a catcher who won't spend a day in the majors. It did not (and to this day would not) justify the force with which Rose chose to collide.

Rose had some kind of very weird head trip going on with Fosse; Reston's excellent dual biography of Rose and Giamatti, Collision at Home Plate, goes into some detail about Rose's attempts to socialize with Fosse and his wife, and his odd braggadocio at recounting their "bonding dinner" later to the press (post-collision). Very, very odd--to this day, Fosse is clearly disturbed by it (as evidenced in Reston's book as well as in Fosse's response to Rose's statements in interviews just a couple of years ago).

Nice little threat, though--I'm still not sure where the nasty tone is coming from. I thought we'd always gotten along pretty well before. :shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

66. Obviously, we have differing opinions on how baseball is supposed to be played

If Rose had taken out Steve Yeager, I would've been mad. But I'd still hold that he was within his rights.

I was on third base in a softball game once as the tying run. I hollered to the catcher, who was a good friend of mine, "Bill, I'm gonna kill you!" He had 40 pounds on me, but I would've knocked him six ways from Sunday if I needed to to score.

What happened to Fosse was unfortunate (though I find it hard to feel sorry for him, as he's had a lucrative announcing job for years), but I know of nothing to suggest it was caused by anything more than hardball — "weird head trips" notwithstanding. Pete Rose wanted to win ball games, period.

I apologize if I seemed overly nasty. I just get so sick of this shit.

[Shakespeare]

68. Understood, and I have no problem with that.

Agree to disagree, then. :hi:

[madinmaryland]

35. Here's the answer...

[LynneSin]

39. I'm gonna fix DE tolls so you have to pay TRIPLE just for that damn picture

:grr:

[madinmaryland]

42. Heh heh heh!!1!! ....

:evilgrin:

[chieftain]

38. As the NBA ref betting on games shows, gambling calls into

question the integrity of the outcome of contests. In the case of players this can lead to finding ways to not do ones best,eg. the Black Sox. Bonds cheated but did it in a way to enhance not decrease his performance. What he did was wrong but it does not undermine the credibility of the games.

[Oeditpus Rex]

45. It does when it leads fans to think

"Is he doping?" when someone has an above-average season.

Edit to add: In contrast, I've never heard anyone say — not seriously, anyway — "They must've bet against themselves" when a ball club loses a game to an opponent with a lesser record.

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. I was going to say Rose because of his hair. But by your criiterion, it's Bonds. Clearly.

[flvegan]

48. The single worst crime was committed by Bill Buckner.

[Initech]

51. I have to go with Bonds on this one.

Sure, Pete Rose is the reason why Vegas will never get a professional baseball team, but it's painfully obvious that Bonds has done steroids and hasn't got caught. Ruth's record was earned. Bonds' wasnt.

Another oft-overlooked crime in baseball history is the Chicago Black Sox. Sure I'm no fan of the White Sox but when one team wins the world series and intentionally throws it the next, that's a crime.

[Oeditpus Rex]

52. Las Vegas has a professional baseball team

The 51s, named for nearby Area 51. It's the Dodgers Triple-A club in the Pacific Coast League.

From 1983 to 2000, they were the Stars and affiliated with the San Diego Padres.

[Ikonoklast]

53. Pete Rose, for two things

First, betting on the game, and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, steadfastly believes that he did nothing wrong. He has the inability to see why betting on baseball is harmful to the game, even while actively participating.

Second, for barreling into Ray Fosse in a meaningless game and effectively ending his career. I've despised him from that day.

"Charlie Hustle" my ass. Slap-hitting banjo hitter is more like it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

69. 'Meaningless' to you, perhaps

Not meaningless to the guys playing in it, and especially not to Pete Rose.

[Ikonoklast]

71. Maybe, maybe not

And many major-leagers see the All-Star game as a pain, some of them suddenly have minor ailments that keep them away, but not off the golf course.


And Pete Rose can still go suck an egg.

[hfojvt]

64. other

Ty Cobb for being such an a$$hole.

[sniffa]

65. neither

pete shouLd be in the haLL of fame, and barry shouLd after he quits.

[FredScuttle]

67. I'm sorry.....

did I miss the part where Bonds failed a drug test?

[conscious evolution]

70. rose absolutely positively knew

what would happen if he was caught betting on games.
The first thing anyone walking into any proffessional ball clubs locker room is a big sign saying that "THOU SHALT NOT BET ON BASEBALL.If you do you will be banned for life."
He knew what the consequences would be.I say tough shit if he doesn't like it.

[jobycom]

72. For me it's Rose by such a hell of a long shot it isn't even close.

Bonds was already a great hitter. He took steroids to face pitchers who were on steroids (half the players who have tested positive are pitchers) and to compete against other players who were on steroids. But the bottom line is that all of these players on steroids were still trying to play the game, and still trying to win.

Rose bet on games he managed. Gambling calls the whole viability of the sport into question. When the outcome is scripted, whether by consent of all involved, as in pro wrestling, or by the actions of one gambler trying to overcome a debt, like Pete Rose or the NBA official currently being investigated, you no longer have a sport. You have a sham.

Compare it to politics. Bonds is like Joe Biden, plagerizing speeches, but still facing an election. Rose is like Bush--rigging the ballots so that the whole election is a fraud.

Besides, who says Rose didn't use steroids? Tom House claimed they were widespread in baseball in the 70s. Rose even admitted to using amphetimines, which is a banned performance-enhancing substance now, though it wasn't banned then. Rose has proven to be a cheat, a liar, an ass, and to have no respect for the game.

I don't know--and really don't like baseball enough anymore to care--what they do to Bonds and his records, as long as they are consistent and do it to everyone who has played in the steroid era. They can't even limit their penalties to whoever got caught, since technically Bonds, McGuire and Sosa haven't tested positive. And no one's even accused saints like Randy Johnson, Roger Clemmons, and, dare I say it, Nolan Ryan, despite the fact that they stayed healthy and dominating long after the normal lifespan of a pitcher. Who knows who is guilty and who isn't. If you punish Bonds, you have to punish them all.

But whatever they decide about steroids, they made the right decision on Rose, and the little bit of me that still cares about MLB hopes they don't overturn that decision.

[jmowreader]

74. I'm going with Rose

You DON'T bet on baseball. Especially when you're a manager.

[Magrittes Pipe]

77. Bud Selig.

Interleague play and the wild card have harmed baseball permanently; far more than anything Rose or Bonds ever did or even could have done. Worse than the Black Sox.