I think of how big my world is because I can read and do math, and I think of those who can't

[Rabrrrrrr]

and I feel sadness for them.

Not so much those who choose to be ignorant - I think of them, and I am disgusted.

But those who were never taught, or who don't have the mental capacity to do either, or for whom it is a struggle... I can't imagine what it is like not to be able to communicate well, or even read a simple book or, in worst case scenarios, not able to read letters from friends, street signs, or warning labels on stuff. I read some of the shit that is posted on freecycle or rapture-ready or other websites (and even some posts on DU, though they are few), and I cringe at the utter lack of capacity to even form a sentence.

And those who don't "get" numbers - such a smaller world they are forced to live in.

I've had some experience with what it is like to be illiterate when I go to Japan, and can't read anything. The first time I went, I remember looking at signs at a train station, having no idea what anything meant, and I realized then "Holy shit - this is what it's like for illiterate people. It must be hell!"

I bitch about people a lot, and granted there are a lot of willingly ignorant people around, who shun education, look at it with suspicion, or don't think it matters. But I know there are also shitloads of people who would love to read and write and be able to do math, but never had the chance - and are forced to live in a much smaller world because of it.

I was inspired to write this post because I just saw a commercial for a technical college that is offering an accounting program for people who aren't good at math - and I thought, wow, those people will come out and they'll be able to do basic level accounting, simple addition and subtraction, but they'll never progress beyond doing simple accounts payable at a local oil change place or a church. And that thought made me sad.

It forces me to consider how truly wondrously and amazingly fortunate I am that I had a good enough public education and the opportunity for college and grad school and a great many other opportunities in life, and how, for the most part, life IS a lot easier for me because I read well and also have a good foundation in math and science, plus a lot of cultural understandings.

A friend of mine (white, Ivy-league educated) goes to Haiti a lot to work with the people and learn from them and be part of their struggle against the crap that goes down there. On one of his many trips, he was hanging out with a local guy, and my friend asked him, "Do you think that I, a white American, am rich?" And the guy said, "Do you eat every day? If you eat every day, then you are rich."

I think that applies to reading and writing and 'rithmetic, as well.

[Inchworm]

1. Well put

I thank teachers that give a shit! :yourock:

:applause:

[Heidi]

2. Thank you for this, Rabrrrrrr.

:thumbsup:

[Hugin]

3. Dang, a Rabrrrrrr rant I can agree with...

:party:

:thumbsup:

It's a RED LETTER day!

[kay1864]

4. Well put

:thumbsup:

[DS1]

5. I still choose to mock them

as evidenced by my latest thread.

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. I don't mind mocking the willfully ignorant, those who refuse to strive to be more.

But the accidentally illiterate - those are a different case.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Yup - that's why I mainly only mock Americans for their stupidity...

... as it's more by choice there in many cases.

lol! Magic necrovoyant cats. LOLOL!

[eyepaddle]

6. Very well put. This post does you credit.

And I, as a typical American, love a happy--or atleast hopeful--ending. I'd wager that a lot of "poor at math" accountants will get a lot better as they practice. Even if they aren't really forced to do higher math just pounding away with numbers for day after day will breed familiarity, and later comfort.

I personally never got higher than a "C" in any college math class, intermediate algebra, college algebra, trig and calculus. I also haven't taken a math class in more than a decade; and yet somehow, just having to work with the stuff has really sharpened my skills. Shoot, I've even tutored people at it a few times. I'm still not cut out to be a mathematician, but my skills are solid, if unspectacular.

On a completely unnecessary personal note, I still wish I was better at calulus so I could slug it out through a stats degree. In my sampling dependent career, I would really, really enjoy being better versed in higher statistics.

Not everybody will progress, but take heart Rabrrrrrr, some will.

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. Yes, some will progress. And even those "stuck" at an oil change place

are doing better than they were before taking the remedial accounting class. So it's a step up for them.

It's just too bad that our republican-designed educational system isn't designed more to educate and teach ALL the people, instead of just breeding a few for management and feeding the rest garbage so that they make good workers.

[eyepaddle]

14. Yeah, I think it's akin to what Carl Sagan termed a

"budding technological priesthood." A few people really know how to do things, and the vast majority basically only learn enough to follow orders and be thankful for whatever meager job they posess.

I think I am going to reccommend this post of yours.

[Kali]

41. they don't even want good workers anymore

it's all about cannon fodder.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. in india, there are a lot of truly illiterate people. not ignorant. illiterate

and their world is very different and very limiting.

[Shakespeare]

8. Great post.

And I think the reason you bitch a lot about people (as do I) is because you DO recognize what they're throwing away through willful ignorance. Education is a huge gift, and those who can't get it or are unable to benefit from it are truly underprivileged.

[BarenakedLady]

11. I'm one of those who don't "get" numbers

It's embarrassing. It was never a result of being lazy (as teachers accused me of being). I can't mentally see numbers like I can words. I excelled in English, but math has always been a struggle. Now I'm going back to college this Fall. I need to take a math course and I'm dreading it. Already my 10 year old's math is beyond my capability.

:scared:

[eyepaddle]

15. Here's to wishing you the best of luck.

:hug:

Here's offering a bit of hope: my placement tests suggested I needed some remedial math (instead I just slugged it out in plain ol' intermediate algebra) eventually managed to at least get through Calculus I--in some cases powerful motivation can make a differnce. I had fallen in love with Geology, and needed Calc to get the degree, it was a royal pain at times, but I made it.

Go get 'em! :hi:

[BarenakedLady]

21. Thanks!

I was just talking about this the other day. The only math I was halfway decent at was Algebra. I attributed to the use of x and y. For some reason my brain could grasp it. :shrug: I never got beyond that though.

In a way I'm looking forward to it. It's scary, but exciting at the same time.

[ulysses]

31. you're like my wife.

Ms U went back to school last spring at 39 yo, and the math is what's always held her back from finishing. We're attacking that one damned math class together this fall. Best of luck, BNL.

[billyskank]

35. I don't think that is pitiable at all.

I don't feel sorry for you because maths isn't your strength. I already know how intelligent you are. I look up to you. Actually I want to be like you when I grow up.

[redqueen]

12. I think this deserves a recommendation.

:thumbsup:

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Sometimes when I post a grammar rant

I'm a bit embarrassed later because I realize there are people whose brains simply don't process language mechanics well, as mine doesn't process advanced mathematics. Just as I "hear" and "feel" language, there are many who have the same relationship with complicated numeric computations. I envy them, and I should probably have more compassion for those who don't "get" language.

Nice post, Rab. :thumbsup:

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. I can't believe you use an illogical connective in the first sentence, and use passive voice twice.

:eyes:





Just kidding! Well, I mean, you did, but I really don't fault you for it.

:yourock:

I need sometimes, too, to remember that just because I "get" something doesn't mean I should be smug about it around other people.

[ChoralScholar]

18. I used to use perfect grammar and spelling all the time,

however, the older I get, the more I lapse on stupid things. I've caught myself several times confusing they're, their, and there; too, to, and two; among other things. I also find myself searching for the correct spelling of a word, when I used to be a dictionary of spelling. I used to make fun of people for spelling/grammar errors, and now I produce them. I'm not sure why.

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. I never really gave a stoat's hiney about 'active' and 'passive' voices

As long as both aren't used in the same sentence, meh.

In journalism, it's drilled into you that passive voice is only for certain types of stories — features, et al. Again, I say "Meh." If it works, it works — and the key to writing well is knowing what works, not necessarily what's mechanically precise.

I don't see math as having that sort of freedom, which may be part of why I don't get it.

[Lionel Mandrake]

26. Most of what is written about active and passive voices is nonsense.

Should the passive voice be avoided most of the time? Oops, let me rephrase that. Should you avoid the passive voice most of the time? I don't think so. It depends what you want to emphasize, the actor or that which is acted on. IMHO the passive voice should NOT be reserved for certain types of stories.

Math always came easily to me. Mathematical prose, on the other hand, is something I have to work at. That's because I can freely choose from a great variety of awkward constructions.

[mitchum]

49. "I was never able to convince a math teacher that I meant for an incorrect answer to be...

ironic" Calvin Trillin

I'm with you and Trillin :)

[InternalDialogue]

19. I respect your empathy.

To have felt your alienation in Japan and made a connection to what someone must feel if they're illiterate, that says quite a bit about your character.

Great post.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. What have you done with Rabrrrrrr???? Where's Rabrrrrrr???

Just joking! Great post.

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. Bwuhahahahaha! Every now and again, I throw a curve ball

just to keep you on your toes!

[triguy46]

24. I've read this a couple time since you posted it this am, and I can't get this out of my mind...

Well isn't that special.

[Parche]

25. SMART

"The square root of an Isosceles triangle is the same as the regular tetrahedron" :hi:

[Swede]

27. I have a cousin with dyslexia.

He has never read an entire book,ever. His world is so different from mine because of that.

[Bullwinkle925]

28. What a wonderful post . . .

It certainly does put things into the proper perspective - one that I can lose sight of at times. Indeed - if I can have something to eat every day I am truly rich. I have a roof over my head - a soft wonderful bed to crawl into at night and really, really good friends. The only thing lacking in my life (and for millions elsewhere on this planet) is a responsible humane government.

Thank you Rabrrrrrr for posting this.

:hug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. Only thing lacking is responsible humane government. Ain't that the truth?

Well said!

Reinhold Niebuhr said it better, but I do find interesting how normally good-intentioned moral people get less and less moral as the society grows larger. And thus at the national level, governments, even if they are made up of people who otherwise pick up a stranger, help them out, feed them, help them on their way, can easily make decisions that lead to death, destruction, and poverty for those very same strangers.

"Moral Man in Immoral Society" - great book.

[Bullwinkle925]

36. thanks for the 'heads up' on the book recommendation . . .

i shall add that to my never-ending list.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Hell of good book - influenced MLK, Jr. and others in the civil rights movement

and others in movements of liberation.

I gave the wrong title, though - it's "Moral Man and Immoral Society".

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Man-Immoral-Society-Theological/dp/0664224741/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9454250-0608855?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185678697&sr=1-1

Especially fitting since it was written in 1932 (wow!) while Niebuhr was a professor at Union Seminary in NYC (he and his brother Richard, also a famous theologian who taught at Yale (maybe Harvard, I forget), are also famous for disagreeing on WWII - if memory serves, Richard was against the US's involvement in the war on moral grounds, and Reinhold, while not for war generally, felt that in that war, the US had a moral imperative to join the war and fight the Nazis; I might have them mixed up, though; I know there was a very strong anti-war sentiment at Union during WWII (and during all wars, actually), and it seems that Reinhold is the one who stuck out for being pro-war in the midst of all that dissension at Union)

[Bullwinkle925]

38. you are one smart cookie Rabrrrrrr . . .

how do you retain all of this knowledge?

very, very impressive i might add.

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. Thanks! I got one thing wrong, though - they were not from Germany.

I was just wikipediaing, and find out they were born in the US, in Missouri - but their dad was a German Evangelical pastor.

I thought for sure they'd come from Germany, but clearly they didn't.

Otherwise, it's accurate!

And as to memory, I remember mostly because a) I've read it, and b) I passed Niebuhr's bust every time I was in the library at Union. :-)

[Bullwinkle925]

40. I certainly wish that I could retain all that I've *read* . . .

as I grow older, the memory just doesn't serve me as well as it used to - dammit.

[Boojatta]

30. "Do you eat every day? If you eat every day, then you are rich."

If that part of the OP is true, then might there have been some truth to Reagan's concern that lots of rich people were going to soup kitchens for free food? Perhaps few people using soup kitchens actually drove limousines, so perhaps Reagan should have re-worded his statement. However, wouldn't many of them have been considered rich by the "eat every day" criterion of richness?

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. Wow - talk about taking something out of context.

Well done.

I think.

[Boojatta]

42. I would say "my bad" if I had reason to believe that was actually true.

Had I taken a review that said "a few important changes to the plot and casting could have made this into a truly great movie" and quoted just the words "a truly great movie", then I could understand the accusation of "taking something out of context."

I can't imagine any possible DU rule that my first contribution to this thread would have violated. Perhaps you could propose such a rule?

I'm not suggesting that I violated something that it would be practical for DU to make into an offical rule and try to enforce. However, I'm willing to go beyond the official rules and voluntarily obey other rules. So enforcement is not necessary.

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. Wow - you even took my "out of context" comment out of context.

I said nothing about violating rules, nor wanting to propose new rules, nor any kind of enforcement of any rules whatsoever.

Whew!

I'm not sure what you have read in either of the two posts to which you responded. Your responses have had very little to do with what I actually said, so I'm confused.

:shrug:

First you took a comment of a poor Haitian man who said "If you can eat every day, you are rich" and turned his words into some kind of Reaganesque-economic-nightmare-supporting propaganda. That's what you took out of context - to turn a poor Haitian's words, a man who DOESN'T eat every day, into him supporting Reagan's economic policies. Bizarre. And, as I said, out of context.

:shrug:

[ulysses]

32. I'll be taking this along in my mind

as I start back to work this next week. Thanks, Rabrrrrrr.

[Rabrrrrrr]

34. Woo hoo!

:hi:

[RebelOne]

44. When it comes to math, I draw a mental blank.

Never was good in math. But in my profession as a copy editor, I don't need to know how to add and subtract too much.

[The Straight Story]

45. Math has a beauty all it's own

And sadly so many people just think of it as a really dry subject.

I can see why sometimes, I have only read one calculus book that was entertaining :)

But number theory - now there is something I find wonderful.

I'm not good at it all like I used to be back in the day, too many life events got in the way. But I still find time to work on prime number theory and data compression.

1,3,7,9 if it don't end in that it ain't prime, except for 5 which visits primes once and never again :)

[cobalt1999]

46. ever read "Fermat's Enigma" by Simon Singh?

Great book, almost a thriller. I love math and science. The world would be a much duller place without it.

[The Straight Story]

47. Have read similar books but not that one, will see if the library has it

I love libraries :)

Many read like detective novels. And I think that is why I love math and programming and such things, it is like being to be a csi detective and solve things from the comfort of my chair. No crime, but a puzzle nonetheless.

[Rabrrrrrr]

48. I haven't read that, either - but there has been a slew of great books on numbers

I've read in the last few years some brilliant books on zero, phi, e, i, pi, and other numerical inventions/discoveries.

Fascinating, wonderful stuff.

I shall go order Fermat's Enigma from Amazon right now... because I'm a total nerd. :7

[MiserableFailure]

50. ADDand dysgraphia here

Fortunately my medication helps me concentrate for my inattentive type ADD, but there is no medication for dysgraphia. I'm 41 and we never had computers in high school growing up that I could have used to type. I have spatial dysgraphia which means that I am terrible at drawing and my penmanship is terrible. Motor skills and spelling are normal though. But what this meant is that I received B's on papers that should have been A's and C's on exams that should have been B's, because the teachers couldn't read them, I was resented by classmates and just told to "slow down to write more legibly". Yeah, I can slow down and write legibly, but then it takes me an hour to write a paragraph and my hand is exhausted.

Now I use computers of course so it's not an issue, but it still bugs me when occasionally someone will pick on my handwriting. They don't realize that it's a neurological disorder and not laziness that keeps me from writing correctly. Yeah, it's a minor thing, but it still makes me a little odd and unusual. It really bugs me though when someone who doesn't have either of these things will get on me about it. I point out my 1420 SAT score from when I took it in the mid 80s, and that shuts them up.

[Pithlet]

54. I wonder if that's my problem.

I have tried so hard to write neatly. I envy people who can. But, no matter how careful or deliberate I am, my handwriting is awful. It's also inconsistent. It seems my handwriting is never the same from day to day, except that it's always sloppy. School was tough. Teachers would make me write sentences over and over, which I think made things even worse. My grades definitely suffered for it. I still get comments about it as an adult. I will type whenever possible, because I think people do make judgments about it.

[MiserableFailure]

55. I'd bet a lot of money you do have it

My letters never look the same from line to line, like if I write a certain word like "Dog" 10 times in a paragraph, it will look different each time. My signature looks different every time I make it on a piece of paper or electronic machine. My drawing sucks. My penmanship is no better than the average second grader's, but obviously it could be alot worse. In the computer age now I can get by without problems by dictating and typing. It would be a lot worse if I had something like dyslexia.

[Pithlet]

56. Yep. I have the same problems, except drawing.

I'm not half bad at drawing, though they tend not to be heavy on detail. My letters never look the same from word to word, either. The size of my lettering can vary, too. The signature thing can be iffy, if someone actually pays attention and tries to match signatures, but that's usually not a problem. I agree that compared to other difficulties, it's not that bad. There are a lot of ways to work around it. But I guess there's not much awareness of it.

[Lars39]

51. Something in the learning realm didn't *take* with those that choose

ignorance. Somehow,some way, thru various circumstances, that person wasn't reached, didn't learn the value of knowledge, didn't have it reinforced enough to keep knowledge important for life. They're still to be pitied.

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. You're right, and you have taught me something here.

I should not be so quick to dehumanize and write off those who choose ignorance. I can't quite go fully to the realm of pity of them, because I still feel that, even if their parents taught them that they should fear knowledge, simple logic should be enough for them to realize how limiting it is to remain stupid and profane.

But, I am not as certain of that as I was this morning - your words have caused that uncertainty.

I shall meditate and think on this.

Thanks!

[Critters2]

53. You're right about people who can't do math

working at church. That's how I got here.