Is Chivalry Dead?

[Darth_Kitten]

:shrug:

I find myself always being "shoved" aside by some males. Uh, just say "excuse me" and I can move for you. No need to just bump into me whilst you are going about your business. :eyes:

Uh, and maybe that "free drink" you got at the pub was actually not for you and your group of friends, it was the lady's standing right next to you? (me and the bartenders had a bit of a chuckle over that one) "yeah, duh, it's like FREE?"

Is chivalry dead? Where are good manners amongst our young males, or am I being slightly unfair, because older guys can be just as impolite (or on the flip side, very respectful and sweet)

But I'm guessing in general our society has just lost it's way somewhat with civility. :(

[HEyHEY]

1. Man, you're a yakky broad

Course it isn't ;-)

[JVS]

74. And what's with her wanting to take away other people's free drinks!

[Darth_Kitten]

92. Dammit, I paid for it!!!

:D

[GirlinContempt]

2. I never understood

how such a feudalistic bourgeois word became synonymous with manners.

[HEyHEY]

3. So, you're one of them "Don't call me a 'chick'" chicks, eh?

[GirlinContempt]

14. You know what they say

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r3zr1QJs_-U

[Darth_Kitten]

5. You're scaring me.

:(

[GirlinContempt]

15. Why?

Or, how so?

[Darth_Kitten]

94. Using scary big words.

:D

[janx]

30. I understand feudalistic, but I don't understand bourgeois

in connection with the term. ?

[GirlinContempt]

39. Because the concept of chivalry was taken over

by the new upperclassmen after feudalism bit the big one.

[janx]

88. But how do you know that the behavior was "taken over"?

Couldn't it have been possible that the behavior was simply accepted at that point?

[JVS]

75. Because in order to justify a class system based on heredity, it was necessary...

to develop a system of distinction that make it clear that Elizabeth Windsor and Cletus Delroy are not the same sort of people. In the real-life scenario, it was necessary to create these manners to regulate social interaction in the newly created court, rather than the roving warlord bands that typefied European politics in the early part of the middle ages. Think Atilla the Hun vs. King Arthur.

PM me for some book suggestions on how this shit happened.

[GirlinContempt]

87. I know why it was necessary then

I just don't get it now

[janx]

4. NO!

It is not!

[HEyHEY]

6. Well, that settles that then

[janx]

22. Right!

:rofl: That was a hurried post. It's not dead; it's just harder to find--much like Flannery O'Connor's story title dealing with "A Good Man."

Generally speaking though, it's found more frequently in males who like/respect certain females. Or at least it's easier to spot in such a situation.

[HEyHEY]

26. True, chivalry of convenience!

[janx]

34. Or desire...

which ever the case may be. The difference is often difficult to detect at first in some cases. In others, it's obvious.

[petronius]

7. Well, see, Clinton got a blowjob, and that taught men to behave like

buffoons. We need to put prayer back in school to reverse the tide of incivility...

</freeper logic>

:)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. I'm a young male with good manners.

:hi:

[HEyHEY]

So, you're a virgin?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

12. Nah, just one of those decent people you never see nowadays.

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

16. Meh, we got plenty up here

I actually do find, and this isn't that Canadian arrogance I hate so much, that when I go to the US people are much ruder to one another.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

17. Are you the exception?

[HEyHEY]

19. I'm not rude, I'm just a smartass.

I always give old ladies my seat. Then say, "There ya go, lazy bitch!" Fuck em if they can't take a joke!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

21. Wouldn't "smart" entail intelligence?

[GirlinContempt]

23. Oh zing.

Watch out, though. Heyhey gets mean in the cloakroom after recess. Don't cross him.

[HEyHEY]

29. That fucker is gonna get some nasty shit drawn on his forehead

[HEyHEY]

24. Yeah, I'm a total dumbass

:eyes:

Whatever, cherry

[janx]

25. Who or what is cherry?

Did I miss something? :shrug:

[HEyHEY]

27. I'm just bustin' his swelled balls

Cause when I made a JOKE earlier he got all pissy eyed.

A "cherry" is a virgin.

[janx]

51. OK, I see.

I've never seen it used to refer to a person before.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. Lighten up, Francis.

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

37. Me?

Dude, I was being light. My whole life is light hearted... I don't take ANYTHING seriously... ask my bankers

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. Hey, I'm all about being light.

But when you consistently post things in the manner you always do, don't expect everyone to think it's cute.

[HEyHEY]

40. I'm not going for cute.... that's just how I am.

And anyone who doesn't like it can go fuck a tree.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. I see a forest in your future.

[HEyHEY]

42. That doesn't even make sense

[Fran Kubelik]

63. ...

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[Nevernose]

43. I smell a business opportunity:

Tree-fucking.

No, wait, hear me out. A few years ago, I managed a semi-legitimate side-business for a pimp. And because of that, in addition to "buy more soda" and "don't hire blacks," many of my job duties included things like "hide this hooker until my wife leaves" or "film this porno for me."

Anyway, the guy made a fortune selling coprophilia videos (pornos with, for lack of a better term, shit. Eating it, smearing it, wearing, doing it.) The best sellers were a camera under glass whilst a woman shat. And yes, I still have nightmares.

The point is: you said in your response to that other person: "Go fuck a tree." Could there be money in that? Would you, or people like you, really pay their hard-earned money to watch people screw various types of flora? If there's one thing I've learned from Savage Love, it's that people like screwing weird things.

(sorry for the thread hijack, btw)

[HEyHEY]

45. I've gone through my chlorotica phase

But, I'm sure some people in the vegatarian forum may oblige.

[Nevernose]

58. If porno is progressive...

Then where the hell do I go after "chlorotica?"

And you say that you've gone though that phase. Does that mean someone's already selling vids of hot, steamy, man-on-eggplant action? What about two eggplants at the same time? Or maybe a really hot chick shitting on an eggplant...

[mitchum]

46. Doin't apologize for the thread hijack; I want to hear more about that job you held

that must have been absolutely incredible

[Nevernose]

57. People keep saying: "Write a book."

In short, I managed a normal, family-friendly discount movie theater for the world's only Jewish pimp.

I got the job because I spoke clearly, liked movies, wasn't retarded, and promised not to let my then-drug habit interfere with my duties ("That's all I have to do? Promise? No problem. Sure.").

I don't want to go into too much detail w/o spoiling the book or w/o consulting my lawyer, but here are just a few of the salient points:

The Jewish pimp once got thrown off the Olympic wrestling team for conspiring to fix the Olympics.

He was also Dana Plato's pimp.

Once, in trying to circumvent the laws on curfew, he had the theater rented out to the "Reverend Doctor Otis Holland" as a religious event on Saturday night to throw an ecstasy-and-meth fueled rave in the name of "Jesus!"

I once edited and corrected his disbarred lawyer's brief on a pandering (legalese for "pimping") charge -- including going to the law library to figure out how the "lawyer" had fucked it up. He won his case, btw.

I was once ordered to retain the services of an incompetent janitor because, since he was allowed to run a meth lab on the premises, he was also available for work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

It goes on and on and on... The pornography and prostitution? Mere frosting on the cake. The surreal life? Paris Hilton's got no idea what the "Surreal Life" is all about.

[eppur_se_muova]

89. Punchline of an old joke (dangers of tree-fucking):

Hooker: What's the stick for?
Hick: From now on, afore I stick my pecker in anything, I'm makin' sure they ain't no danged hornets' nest in there!

[JVS]

76. we're just keeping it real!

[ThomCat]

33. You're such a nice, polite young man.

We should find some nice woman to introduce you to.

(Channeling my inner Bubbie) :P

[Starbucks Anarchist]

36. Yes. Yes, we should.

:rofl: :hi:

[Connonym]

79. me! me! me!!!

[HEyHEY]

It's dead if it isn't just after payday. Or at least that's how I operate.

[HEyHEY]

9. It's dead if it isn't just after payday. Or at least that's how I operate.

[Connonym]

10. Rude people suck

Male or female. It's not even about chivalry, it's just basic being aware that you're not the only fucking person on the planet. I think some people are so wrapped up in their own sense of personal glory that nobody else matters. Maybe it's because we're all strangers now and it's easier to be rude when you figure you'll never see these people again anyway, why treat them well?

[JTG of the PRB]

11. I certainly hope it's not dead.

I'd hate to be the only one treating women nicely.

I'm trying to be cute and coy with that one, but I can't fine a smilie to match that sentiment.

[AwakeAtLast]

13. My husband just said, "It dies after marriage"

And now I'm doing this: :spank:

[Skittles]

59. you want I should kick his ass, WakeMeUp??

I really want to

[AwakeAtLast]

68. Nah, I got it covered

But thanks for the offer! :hi:

:D

[swag]

18. Elevator "chivalry" is the number one productivity sink in the office building of today.

[Fenris]

35. I agree with this gentleman.

Chivalry has been supplanted by efficiency because it may result in profit loss. Sure, I could hold the lift door open for every comely young damsel that catches my fancy, but every moment that automatic steel contraption stays in the "open" position, money is lost. And if my mind wanders to impure thoughts of an carnal nature, I am no longer thinking about how I can evict orphans from a property I wish to acquire and subvert municipal codes in order to clandestinely dump spent industrial cleaners into an adjacent waterway. Not only is time money, but thoughts themselves have dollar amounts attached to them. I didn't become the largest beaver hat manufacturer West of the Rockies by holding the door open for the fairer sex. I cringe at the thought of what my lifestyle would be had I done so. Less rooms in my mansion? Fewer street children employed in my service? Fewer doomsday devices to threaten the Cleveland administration with?

Perish the thought.

[datasuspect]

49. i can dig it

but i always like to be the magnanimous one in these matters.

naturally, i'll always let a woman precede me on the elevator, but i always tell another male "after you" in an attempt to be polite.

i don't know why i do this.

and when i tell people "after you" and do a grandiose sweep of the hand in the direction of the elevator car, they always go. no one has ever said, "no, please, i insist, after you"

[Blue-Jay]

20. How does chivalry equate with getting a free drink?

It's been a while, but the last time someone asked me "Would you like to buy me a drink?" I said "No I would not?"

Was that rude of me?

[HEyHEY]

32. My best

Was a girl who came up to me and said with a pouty face, "I'm all out of beer."
"Man, what a drag," was my answer before taking a huge gulp of mine and walking away.

[JVS]

77. When I was 19 a bouncer friend snuck me into a bar. A girl says to me...

"it's my birthday, want to buy me a drink?" I said "No, I'm too young to buy booze"

[janx]

55. No, it was not.

I've done some stupid things in my 49 years, but that is really stupid. Who would walk up to someone and say that? :rofl:

You made that up, yes?

[Blue-Jay]

61. I didn't make it up.

Some background: I've played in bar bands since I was 17. And I've had a lot more (ahem) flirty things said to me than what I posted.

[Darth_Kitten]

95. In my case, I bought a drink.....

and up comes this guy thinking "oh, I must have gotten a free drink"?

Guy was dense. :) Thought it was just sitting on the counter waiting for him.

It was just after this that I got to thinking about consideration and other virtues. (this and a few other events)

I don't know, people just seem to go through life with blinders on. :)

[BlooInBloo]

28. They're confused, because a woman just down the way is talking about...

... how she doesn't need men to open a door for her and she's her own woman etc.

[janx]

52. Yeah, but

it's still very dear that men want to try.

[BlooInBloo]

54. Bah. Crazy womens. (grumblegrumble)

[JackBeck]

44. Dead beyond belief.

So much so, no matter the gender, no one thanks you for holding the door for them. I still hold it anyway, regardless if they are offended or not responsive.

[bridgit]

47. expired, not unlike the stopping of a clock un-wound...

[datasuspect]

48. it's dead when you stop leaving a tip on the dresser after you're done

a gentleman always tips.

[HEyHEY]

50. "Here's a tip, you're an autumn"

[JVS]

78. Tip? At the prices that you already get charged? pfeh!

[Bullwinkle925]

53. i'm afraid it is . . .

actually, just plain thoughtfulness seems to have disappeared from society these days. i remember looking forward to going to my little independent bookstore a while back to hear one of my favorite authors speak about her new book. i had worked all day and was bone tired and had to drive approx. an hour to get to the bookstore. of course, i was one of the last ones there and it really irked me when there were several much younger men than myself who were seated and didn't even attempt to offer a seat to anyone else. i know if i had a seat and there was an older person standing, i would have offered.
i don't expect anything now so i'm not disappointed.

[janx]

60. The only way to correct the situation is to try to be thoughtful

of others. In the current climate of incivility, it really surprises people--the cliche is "random acts of kindness," but people are actually surprised.

I remember going through crowds with my brothers in situations that warranted our getting to a destination when we were young: "Excuse me please, thank you--excuse me please, thank you"--it sounds ridiculous now, and it probably was at the time, but now it seems both funny and endearing. We weren't trying to get to the front of any line, just through a crowd.

One of my brothers got enthralled with the "sir" thing for awhile, but that was humor and cynicism more than anything else. He latched onto it for some twisted humor and started calling his girlfriend's father "sir" at every opportunity.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

56. I ALWAYS hold the door for a lady.

Of course, the fact that I want to get a good look at their posteriors as they walk by may have something to do with it...

Hey. Good manners and depraved lechery often go hand in hand!

:evilgrin:

[liontamer]

62. how is that chivalry?

You're referencing situations of just plain rudeness. Do you only care when young men are rude to young women? Chivalry refers to an entire honor code that contains the premise that women are inferior and therefore need special accomadation (like the elderly, infirm, or very young children do).

I'm all for chivalry dropping dead, but that doesn't mean we should excuse rudeness.

[LanternWaste]

64. Man, I'm gonna get flamed--

Man, I'm gonna get flamed--

It's not dead, but it's lying in bed in the ICU ward and it's prognosis looks grim.

I've made it a habit to employ all the traditional signs of respect a male is to show a lady including opening the door, giving up my seat, offering to carry a heavy load, etc. I am a gentleman-- it's a sign of respect, not a sign of dominance as I've been told.

I've been tempted on many occasions to simply stop doing it because all too often, I get the "Hey, pal! I can open a door as easy as you can..." lines. I don't do it because I want to be appreciated, I do it because it's the right thing to do, or so I thought. But as the direction we go in as a culture becomes more clear, maybe it's not the right thing to do-- maybe I should act like a schmuck to everyone-- ladies included.

(But I won't give up my genteel ways-- I was just ranting)

[quiet.american]

72. Thank you -- this woman, for one, still appreciates a real gentleman.

:hi:

Anybody can talk with their mouth full, race for an empty seat and step all over your shoes without so much as a "'scuse me."

It takes real class to go the extra mile and extend true courtesy, especially when so many young women today don't seem to understand that being a strong woman doesn't necessarily mean you have to be "one of the guys" and so blow off those who are just being courteous.

[northzax]

81. you want chivalry AND equal pay?

right. Chivalry was taking care of the weaker sex. take your pick which you want to be, equal or weaker?

seriously, that's what chivalry was all about, men taking care of women because they needed to be taken care of.

now politeness is a different story. I won't give up my seat on the bus for a woman just because she is a woman, but someone who looks especially tired, sick, pregnant. or the elderly always get my seat, male or female (well, not the pregnant part) I have learned not to offer it up, just to wait until they are almost to my seat and say something about getting off in a stop while standing up. even if the person doesn't want it, it makes me feel better.

[quiet.american]

82. Is your response meant to be to me? I didn't use the word "chivalry" in my response. n/t

[LanternWaste]

83. Well... I guess if someone ever offers there seat to you these days

Well... I guess if someone ever offers there seat to you these days, there's about a 10% chance it'll be me.

Seriously though-- thanks. It helps to know that not everyone I try to be a gentleman to interprets it as a slap in the face ('cause it's really, *really* not).

[quiet.american]

86. :) Cheers. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

65. Yeah, but it's on it's last legs.

And two very different groups of women are killing it.

The first group would have you believe that you're a chauvinist pig for even thinking about holding a door or helping out a woman, regardless of the fact that I hold doors and help men out as well. It's common courtesy, fer chrissake.

The second group believe they are completely entitled to it and can't be bothered to even mutter a simple "thank you". Worse, they start simply barking commands to you, as if you're the doorman or elevator attendant. That group pisses me off far more than the previous ones.

But like I said, it's common courtesy, so I'll continue doing it. But I completely understand those that don't.

[raccoon]

66. Agree, civility is in decline.

Also, lots of people think being an aggressive asshole is being assertive.

NOT the same thing!

[terrya]

67. Yes, it sure is.

Died a while back.

Dead, dead, dead. And parents aren't teaching their children basic civility, much less chivalry.

[One_Life_To_Give]

69. Chivalry = Excuse for Rich to exploit the masses

Rescuing a maiden in "distress" entitles the young noble to have his way with her, unless she is of noble birth. Yeah we sure hope it is dead.

[LanternWaste]

85. And now I know why I open doors for females...

And now I know why I open doors for females-- it's because I'm rich and am trying to exploit the masses! Thanks for telling me!

:evilgrin:

[meegbear]

70. No, he's doing my laundry

[skygazer]

71. Are you talking about chivalry or good manners?

As far as I'm concerned, they're two different things. Chivalry is the idea that men need to cater to women. I don't think that's fair to either men or women.

Good manners consist of polite behavior towards other people, regardless of their sex. Would it be any more socially acceptable for men to shove aside other men? Or to take another man's drink? I don't think so.

If someone is approaching the door, I hold it open for them. Whether they're male or female. If I'm approaching it, I appreciate it when it's held for me and I smile and say, "thank you."

I don't expect men to behave one way and think I get a pass on behaving politely myself.

[JVS]

73. get out of the way!

[Deja Q]

80. Well, people probably think if you open a door for a lady, she'll think you just want to look at her

butt. :D

I certainly won't deny our society has lost some of its civility.

And cell phones, even I'll agree, were not a good invention. But necessary since nobody wants to use pay phones anymore... but I digress.

[Rob H.]

84. Civility isn't dead, necessarily,

but it's probably not as widespread as it could be. I've noticed that lately when I open doors for people or stand aside to let others pass or say "please" and "thank you" (or as my parents called it, minding my Ps and Qs), I get some very surprised (albeit pleased) looks. It saddens me a little that they're surprised to encounter someone who extends simple courtesy toward strangers.

[eppur_se_muova]

90. My Chivalry died after only 39,000 miles. nt

[wildhorses]

91. yes. it is.

sorry.

[janx]

93. I don't think so. Chivalry and Romantic Love are not Dead.

Not at all.

[wildhorses]

96. ah...2 things with which i have very little experience.

i should qualify my statement by saying that they are dead in my life as i have yet to experience them. consider yourself lucky and blessed to have them in your life. i wish i could say the same for myself.

[Nikia]

97. An intersting thing happened to me when everyone found out how much money I made

It was an accidental disclosure without my knowledge. Once one person found out, the gossip spread around and may have even been exaggerated.
I really don't make a lot of money, but the majority of people where I work are low wage.
Some people began being much more polite to me because they assumed that since I was paid more than they thought that I must be an important, powerful person in the company.
The young low paid macho men who had originally been polite and helpful to me, started being extra rude and unhelpful to me.
When I think about how those young men acted, I think that the fact that more men are rude to women is sort of a backlash. They are alright being nice to women when they think that women are in an inferior position. When they fear that women are no longer in an inferior position, they react in anger and treat women poorly.