"There are no atheists in foxholes"

[skygazer]

Am I the only one who finds that saying really obnoxious? I mean, until someone does a scientific study and determines the number of avowed atheists who turn to some god when the bullets start flying, I will refuse to believe it has any meaning whatsoever.

For one thing, I really doubt if I'd be seeing the hand of god having anything to do with war.

My sociology professor came out with that one in class the other day and I told him it was insulting to atheists. :P

[some guy]

1. So

god exists only as a salve for fear of death?

Just because an atheist, or anyone else, would find themself in a situation where death is probable, and fear of death intrudes on the psyche to the extent of hoping a god of some sort might exist, does not in fact prove the existence of a god.

edit: typo his/is

edit again: logic gives way to fear in unreasonable situations?

[Richardo]

3. You guys are taking an old aphorism a little too seriously

My take: "When things really get hairy, people will reach for any hope at all."

[some guy]

6. ooh nice

I was trying to say something like that.

:applause: for succinctness.

[ashling]

34. You get no points

for succinctness on DU

[cobalt1999]

12. I'd also add...

When things really get hairy, people don't think logically, and illogical people believe in gods.

[Arugula Latte]

15. We should change it to "Grasp at any straw in a foxhole, including the Invisible Sky Fairy."

That would go over well. :D

[qnr]

29. Why wouldn't we take it seriously? It makes an absolute statement about

a specific group; a statement that wants you to take its premise on faith, something atheists aren't very likely to do.

:hi:

edit: s/a absolute/an absolute/

[taterguy]

2. Do they still have foxholes?

I'm no military expert but I thought those things are a remnant of the past, so is the professor saying that God dies as humans evolve.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Danger Mouse]

4. Psh.

'There are no Christians in the scientific community.'
Just as wrong, just as asinine.

[Sanctified]

5. It's the same as the Japanese saying...

Even if you were born Shinto, you will die a Buddhist, or something to that effect.

[Parche]

7. OH For Gawds Sake

Thats All :rofl: :rofl: :hi:

[Mojambo]

8. "There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism,

it's an argument against foxholes.

-James Morrow

[Connonym]

9. I like that logic!

[Schema Thing]

10. Just have whoever says that to you...

... watch the movie Touching the Void. It's a true docu-drama of survival that puts that little chestnut to rest. One of the men featured is an atheist who should have been dead many times over during the course of his ordeal. At one point he recalls wondering if he would turn to god, as he knew he was in a situation he saw no way out of, and was horribly wounded to boot. HE says that he never came close to wanting to appeal to a higher power, even though he intellectually saw this as a "foxhole" moment.

[skygazer]

20. It was the first thing I thought about

And in fact, I've read a lot of literature about people in real-life survival situations - not adventure stories but analyses of what kind of people come through them. In all of them, only a handful have ever mentioned god and that only in passing - as in, "I sent up a prayer and got to work" or some such thing. The great majority never mention it - they're too busy assessing the situation and taking control.

[cynatnite]

n/t

[cynatnite]

11. I always thought it meant that when shit hits the fan...

you're going to be praying for something or someone to get you out of it. :shrug:

[JanMichael]

13. Tillman being one is a fact. Also who held off the Nazis?

The Soviets. Not all of whom were Atheists but I imagine a greater number than most nations have ever had unless one wants to use the Buddhists as examples of a 50/50 mix.

[ThomCat]

14. Good for you!

I'm always thought that was a really stupid, ignorant expression. It basically amount to, "I have faith that in the end everyone will agree that I'm right."

:puke:

[skygazer]

21. I probably would have let it pass

But we were discussing religion in class and he repeatedly assured people, "now I'm not putting down religion" or "I'm not saying religion is bad" and that sort of thing (and he wasn't really saying anything particularly negative about religion). But then he said that and went on to tell a story about how he was on a plane that they thought would have to make an emergency landing and he again laughed and said, "Oh, I bet there weren't any atheists on the plane then!"

Point being, after taking so much care not to offend the religious, he essentially made fun of atheists. No one worries about offending an atheist and that kind of bugs me. Why not have the same sensibilities toward my (non)belief that you do towards others belief?

[ThomCat]

23. "Why not have the same sensibilities toward my (non)belief"

That's a very good question.

I hope a lot of people here at DU are paying attention. The same question could be asked here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. There are no christians in the afterlife.

Because there is no afterlife.

[The Straight Story]

17. Atheists would object to the war and not go, so there would not be any in foxholes

:rofl:

[dropkickpa]

18. It's hooey

I've had a gun pointed at my face, and I sure as hell wasn't crying for some mythical figure to save me. I was thinking "I didn't give Dropkid a kiss before work" and "Why the fuck hasn't someone here called the cops already?????" and "Motherfucker, not again, this job sucks!"

Oh yeah, I'm an atheist, born and raised.

[Chan790]

19. I always questioned that.

It strikes me an applied demonstration of Pascal's wager. Nothing more.

[Inchworm]

22. Foxes believe in Dog

:shrug:


:hide:

[SKKY]

24. Your sociology professor is an idiot, and has probably never been in one...

...Of course there are Atheists in foxholes. There's also Christians, Jews, Fags, and Hetros.

[idgiehkt]

25. no

I've always hated that saying. :hug:

[triguy46]

26. There is also no documentation of the doubling in value...

of birds held in hand versus the value of birds sitting in bushes. When will they stop feeding us this crap??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[pokerfan]

27. Watching Poker After Dark

earlier this year and Jamie Gold (the 2006 Main Event winner) told the table this joke:

What's the difference between praying in church and praying at the poker table?
When you pray at the poker the poker table, you mean it.

Then he and he alone giggled at his wit. Always a bad sign.

Now I've been an atheist for thirty years but I don't go out of my way to tweak believers. I guess it could be argued that it just poker gamesmanship but I don't think that Gold is that subtle nor especially smart.

Then Doyle Brunson (winner of ten bracelets) comments, "I guess you haven't been in many foxholes."

A douchebag joke triggered a remark in kind.

It is a form of Pascal's wager as someone else pointed out. And one of the many criticisms of this argument is that it assumes one true religion.

Now I get to quote Homer Simpson: “What if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we’re just making God madder and madder!”

And now quoting Thomas Jefferson: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." (Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.)

Hmmm... a poker reference, a founding father quote and Homer Simpson. If only I could somehow tie in Harry Potter.

[Jimbo S]

28. No generals in foxholes, either.

[Heidi]

30. Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[u4ic]

31. I've never even heard the term before

:shrug:

[Mythsaje]

32. "T'aint anybody here but us foxes."

:evilgrin:

[ashling]

33. I would think it would be insulting to NON atheists

I mean, if that's the best thing your belief system has got going for it . . . :shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

35. It's a blanket arrogant statement

It basically means that when faced with their own death people will start praying for and to something. It's meant to dismiss the views of atheists. Christians, and I am one, have an arrogance about faith. They think that an atheist will traipse all around pissing all over God, but when it comes time to get out of a jam, they all of a sudden, out of cowardice, see the light, just like the rest of us Christians. It's weird stuff. That's why some Christians freak out about secular humanism. Everything has a purpose, and life's purpose is to be good and life right so you can go to heaven. It blows some Christians away to think that humanists are just good people for... well, the sake of being good. Not for an afterlife or anything like that. Certain Christians believe that being a decent person has to be predicated on a belief in something higher, and not just being a decent person for the sake of being one.

So then the foxhole becomes an issue of purpose. Supposedly, people who are in a foxhole in a rough situation are so fearful they need to turn to something, their lives need some kind of purpose, they need a reason to live and be spared. Out of fear, they supposedly find that higher purpose. It's a very Christian notion to be saved by some tumultous event or even a destructive lifestyle. It's a rebirth. Thinking that this works for everybody is simply arrogant though. It's dogmatic. That sort of certitude and ignorance about others is what brings about virulent bigotry and xenophobia.