I will consider Barry Bonds as the homerun king when I accept George Bush legitimately won 2000/4

[LynneSin]

Think about it

[LSdemocrat]

1. That's really unfair. . .

to Barry. Not that I particularly like the guy, but does he really deserve to be compared to Dubya?

[LynneSin]

2. I think it's absolutely fair

they both cheated to get what they wanted

[LSdemocrat]

4. Yeah, but Bonds didn't exactly kill anyone or screw the country and world

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. Maybe didn't screw the world, but he just delegitimated 150 years of baseball history.

And that's worth a earth's worth of scorn, in my opinion.

We left the 150 year history of baseball, and have now entered into the new world of baseball*.

I find that fucking sad.

[LSdemocrat]

25. In terms of baseball history, which era really deserves an asterisk by it more?

The steroid era or the segregation era? God only knows what the record books would say if the likes of Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige had been allowed to play unsegregated Major League Baseball their entire careers.

[northzax]

30. true...how many black or latin pitchers did the Babe face?

not that many, as I recall. When you limit the talent pool of the opposition by dictat, you make success easier (of course, the Babe was an immense talent, and would have thrived in any talent pool, but he didn't face the best pitchers of his era, only the best white pitchers of his era.)

[Reverend_Smitty]

38. but you also have to factor in league expansion

when Ruth Played there wasn't 30 MLB teams to have to fill up with talent. So while he never played against the best of the Negro Leagues, the talent pool was much more concentrated. Now if he played in the 1960's which combined integration of MLB, expansion clubs and some of the most outstanding pitching statistics of all times, then we would see. This is why I think Aaron's achievement is so much better than Bonds even if he hit 1,000 home runs.

But with that said, opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one

[madinmaryland]

60. On the other hand, before expansion,

batters got to see the pitchers more often than they do now. In fact, in the twenties you only played seven other teams during the year as compared to 15-18 teams throughout the year. Also, today, it is rare for a pitcher to pitch the whole game, and there are typically three to five pitchers used each game.

The fact is that they could get used to seeing just a relative few pitchers during the year.

[Oeditpus Rex]

65. I'm still waiting to see a list of those superior black pitchers

with statistical evidence of their superiority.

[northzax]

71. Are you saying there were none?

Not one black pitcher was better than the worst white one? Ted Radcliffe won 500 games in the Negro Leagues, usually alternating pitching and catching. satchel Paige played in the Majors at 59, you think he could have cracked a lineup at 25? There are three pitchers from the Homestead Greys alone in Cooperstown, not one was better than the worst white guy?

[Oeditpus Rex]

73. No, I'm not saying that

I'm saying what I've always said on this subject: there's no way of knowing. We can assume, project, extrapolate, etc., but the fact remains that, with the exception of Paige for five seasons, none of those guys faced major league hitters. So we just. don't. know.

[Rabrrrrrr]

74. Shhhh..., Oeditpus. The guys who secretly wanna lick and caress Bonds' steroid-deformed arms

and legs and, quite likely, blow him in some kind of Babe-Ruth-Hating erotic visceral Republican-esque fantasy don't need to reminded of facts.

Shhhhh.........

nothing to see here. Move along.

Shhhhhhh..........

[Danger Mouse]

78. ahhhh...this is the best post ever!

:rofl:

[northzax]

87. or you can phrase that the other way round

with the exception of Paige for five years, major league hitters never faced them. the cowardice was on the side of MLB (not neccesarily players alone, owners and fans, too.

[Oeditpus Rex]

92. What difference does it make?

Either way it's parsed, the fact remains that Negro Leaguers rarely faced Major Leaguers, so the only comparisons that can be drawn are anecdotal.

I'm talking purely about baseball. You want to make it into racism. I'll have none of it.

[northzax]

94. it's not about racism

It's just interesting that everyone assumes the all-white major leagues were better than the all-black negro leagues. So I prefer to say that we never saw Major leaguers face Negro leaguers, since we don't know either way, right?

the way you phrased it implies that we don't know if Negro Leaguers would have been successful in the Majors. Well, we also don't know if Major Leaguers would have been successful in the Negro Leagues either, right? that's the difference in phrasing.

[LostinVA]

22. Exactly, Sissie!

[MrCoffee]

3. i'm just glad the sportscasters can quit shitting themselves figuring out

how to cover it.

[IndianaJones]

5. bwahaha, its in the record books...

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=111188

[LynneSin]

7. Which is another reason why baseball is lagging far behind in fan support

I use to be a diehard baseball fan but anymore I couldn't give a shit because of people like Barry Bonds ruining this game.

[IndianaJones]

11. Of course, lots of people do the same kind of complaining about the Yankees...

they are ruining the game too. As are high salaries. And free agency. And interleague play. And the designated hitter. Funny.

[northzax]

31. don't forget the Wild Card

worst thing that ever happened to baseball, or so the dire predictions said.

[LostinVA]

24. That's why I quit liking NFL football

A bunch of whiny, overpaid jerks, with more than a few criminals in the bunch. Vick and Dion's blathering about Vick just supports my thesis.

Of course, I still root for the Eagles because it annoys Haruka.

[Oeditpus Rex]

67. If attendance is the primary measure of support

the numbers show it's quite healthy. Last season's total MLB attendance was nearly 76 million, an all-time record. The average attendance per club was more than 2.5 million, another all-time record. Twenty-four of the 30 clubs drew more than two million.

[smtpgirl]

79. Never a baseball fan, but softball, football, basketball, now

you're talking.

[kay1864]

6. I heard on NPR

that some fans were holding up asterisk signs.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. Damn right. Like Shrubya, he will always have an asterisk next to his name,

at least in my book. But I hope also in the book of history.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Taint! Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron are "tainted" too! Tainters! Tainters!

Babe Ruth played only with white folks. So he should have an asterisk.

The last 200 of Hammerin Hanks home runs were hit in the easiest - by far - park to get dingers in. So he should have an asterisk.

If anything, Bonds' achievement is LESS tainted than the previous two. Bonds was juiced, but so were the pitchers - so there was no net gain.


But nothing will stop DUers from hatin - so get on with it.

EDIT: You guys remind me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCODIhAXbQM

[Rabrrrrrr]

12. Ooh ooh ooh - you just missed a perfect chance to also call us racists!

You could have gone all the way, and you fell short.

Sad.

[BlooInBloo]

14. lol! Maybe next time.

[IndianaJones]

13. Hey...Bonds is the Dubya of baseball....

And the Yankees are Lincoln.

And Selig is Herbert Hoover. And steroids are Hitler.

Apologist.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. Can you provide a list of the pitchers Bonds has faced who used steroids?

We'll wait.

[IndianaJones]

69. Clay Hensley....and he was just in the last week. nt.

[Oeditpus Rex]

70. Okay

Only 220-something pitchers left to prove your point.

Bonds has homered off 440-something pitchers, so I'll accept half as proof.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

15. That's fine.

It doesn't change the fact that he is the homerun king.

[Richardo]

17. ...for 6-7 years until Alex R gets to ~ 800...

[Celeborn Skywalker]

18. You're probably right.

I like Alex R. I hope he does get it.

[BlooInBloo]

19. He was as juiced as anyone else.

[IndianaJones]

21. Hitler of baseball. nt.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

16. K&R

[LostinVA]

20. Me too -- he doesn't even deserve an "*" next to his name

[IndianaJones]

23. Yeah...I agree. No asterisk. nt.

[LostinVA]

26. My point was, he doesn't deserve to be listed as the "home run king" period

[IndianaJones]

27. I don't understand. He has hit the most homeruns in MLB history to this point.

Why wouldn't he be listed?

[Richard Steele]

28. I think you understand just fine.

nm

[IndianaJones]

29. It really is beyond understanding. Good thing those that know better are on it.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=111188

[LostinVA]

34. So what?

Sports records also say the USSR beat the US in basketball for a gold medal -- but they didn't. Along with plenty of other controversial sports records.

[IndianaJones]

35. All the homeruns are accounted for. He is the homerun king of baseball.

I do realize it bothers the Bonds haters to no end...such is life.

[LynneSin]

39. They also say George Bush was elected President and that....

50k West Palm Beach Jewish Senior Citizens actually voted for Pat Buchanon back in 2000

[smtpgirl]

84. I know, what was up with that, a predominately Jewish

community voting for a racist.

[smtpgirl]

82. Yep, it's called propaganda & the sports world loves it

[LostinVA]

32. Because he's a cheat -- and he's not the only one

I think all of the records of the last few years should all be "stand alone," and not part of the standing records.

And, of course you understand -- you just wanted to make me say it, so I did.

[IndianaJones]

33. I don't want to get into an argument about this, but how big a sports fan are you,

and how big a baseball fan?

[LynneSin]

41. If you don't want to get into an argument with my sissy

then stop posting in my damn threads!!

And trust me, she loves sports; even though she has the poor taste of marrying a NY Giants fan. (But I adore both of them anyways)

[IndianaJones]

42. Loving sports and having knowledge of baseball don't go hand in hand. nt.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. .

:thumbsup:

Precious!!

[LostinVA]

46. I LOVE MY SISSY!!!

She's responding to the poster so I don't have to.

:loveya:

[LynneSin]

47. I PM'd you the message just in case it goes bye-bye

I found that quote of "I was probably a fan of the game before you learn to shit without a diaper on your butt." to be legendary. Can I have it trademarked as mine?

[LostinVA]

51. Change it to your sig!

[LynneSin]

64. Wow it's still here

Perhaps no one thought to alert on it

:shrug:

[IndianaJones]

48. Having baseball cards in your closet and having knowledge of baseball do not go hand in hand. nt.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaJones]

53. Claiming you know baseball and using personal attacks to score cool points...

knowledgeable about baseball does not one make.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaJones]

57. At least you make rational arguments...I mean the Dubya thing is rock solid...

can't argue with that knowledge.

I'm sure you momma would think I'm an idiot. She probably hates Barry Bonds too.

[Shakespeare]

66. And making idiotic assumptions about others because they disagree with you...

...is a demonstration of profound stupidity.

[LostinVA]

45. Thank you, sissy!

I do love sports -- enough to know that the Giants suck and the EAGLES ROCK!!! And that having to be juiced on illegal drugs so you can beat a record is cheating and not cricket.

Oh, one more: Oksana Baiul did NOT win the Gold Medal in 1994. Kerrigan did, no matter what the record books say. And, that pains me, because I don't like Kerrigan.

[LynneSin]

49. I have to agree about Kerrigan

She should have had the gold and I couldn't stand her either

[LostinVA]

52. Both of her skates were excellent

I suspected some "kickback judging" then, and I've read recently that it was indeed a quid pro quo thing, just like the "skating scandal" last time.

[LynneSin]

54. I know she was the victem with the whole Tonya Harding situation

but somehow she managed to come out just as bad as Tonya - personality-wise

[LostinVA]

55. Hahahaha -- I know!

[smtpgirl]

83. LostinVA you are on a roll, Kerrigan didn't receive the gold

because of the Harding controversy. The Olympic Committee steered very clear of that bombshell.

[smtpgirl]

85. Oksana is tripping in her vodka vomit now anyway

[BlooInBloo]

36. Then why is there no-one bitching at MLB for allowing cheaters to infiltrate?

It's because the outrage is NOT about cheating. It's just that people hate Bonds.

[LynneSin]

58. I'm tired of bitching and trust me I've done plenty of it

Bud Selig has ruined MLB. Because he's the former owner of the Milwaukee Brewers, the only thing that guy cares about is owner profits and he buys into the perception that "homers = attendance". I was sad when they brought in the DH rule & astroturf (before Selig's time) but it's really gone downhill in the last 10-15 years.

The fact that the powers-to-be in MLB have turned a blind-eye on steriods PLUS the fact that basketball/hockey season ends in the early summer plus football season starts in late summer - well, I just started to not care anymore.

I still have video tapes of baseball games back from when I first got a VCR back in the late 80s including every game of the Cincinnati Red's 1990 championship season. I still have every program of every game I ever attended including the hundreds of minor league games I saw back when the Harrisburg Senators first came to Harrisburg. I have amazing memories of all the players I've met and a couple I've closed some local bars with (and we're talking major league here). I still keep boxscore when I go to my local Blue Rocks games here in Wilmington (a habit I picked up over 25 years ago) but I just don't care anymore about Major League Baseball. I think I'd rather go to the local minor league games where at least the players care about the game then to see the travesty of what they have out there today

[BlooInBloo]

61. (shrug) Somehow I missed it in the midst of all of the Bonds-bitching.

[IndianaJones]

62. You have to read between the lines of the I hate Bonds to the core of my soul...

and would drown my kids before I acknowledge him threads.

[BlooInBloo]

63. Ah.... *That's* where it is! lol!

[IndianaJones]

59. Spot on. nt.

[smtpgirl]

81. Yep, just like Palmerio, McGwire & Conseco

too bad there aren't any Cals anymore. (I have a spot in my heart for MD natives- like Billie Holiday, Frank Zappa & HL Menken). For that matter Ken Griffey, Jr.

Griffey may not be liked, but he isn't dirty.

And Cal, he is in that echelon of baseball, no one will ever duplicate that.

[sniffa]

37. wow, that's deep.. and i'm sure he'LL care

and i'm sure everyone eLse wiLL too.

[IndianaJones]

40. Joe Momma cares. nt.

[Bjornsdotter]

72. Works for me n/t

[Initech]

75. Only seems fitting since the Resident Chimperor called Bonds this morning!

:rofl:

[Danger Mouse]

76. Bonds is a juiced jerk and a cheat.

And the MLB sucks because they haven't done SHIT about juiced jerks like Bonds. The MLB and Selig are as much to blame as Bonds is, as far as I'm concerned.
Fuck baseball.

[LostinVA]

89. Total agreement about the MLB and Selig

[smtpgirl]

77. You go Lynne, never thought of it that way, I like it

[stuntcat]

80. he's letting himself be some Product

like everyone in the sport's doing it, so now he's gone all the way-beating the records of those legends who got it honestly, and now everyone's paying attention to the doping they all do.. like I don't wanna hate on him for getting this far doing what he thought was okay all along. I guess.. ..alright, I admit everything I know about this is what I saw on PBS tonight.. but I know enough to say it's not fair to take records away from all the men who did it with no help.

[smtpgirl]

86. Kind of like a Deion Sanders , Michael Vick or Michael Irvin

Loudmouths that got the prize, but end up in the has-been bin.

To all of the players in sports, especially Jim Thorpe, you guys deserve it.

Rock on Hank Aaron!!

[LynneSin]

88. BTW - do you know my alternative DU screen name

it's Deleted Message

:hide:

[LostinVA]

90. Haruka informed me of that last night

[IntravenousDemilo]

91. Gotta love The Onion!

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/destruction_of_national_pastime

SAN FRANCISCO—A sellout crowd rose to its feet and exploded into ecstatic cheers Tuesday night as Barry Bonds completed the downfall of America's most revered sport by hitting a thundering 435-foot shot into the left field bleachers for career home run No. 756 and tainting baseball's most beloved record.

Celebrations broke out throughout AT&T Park and thousands of flashbulbs went off as Bonds took his ceremonial trip around the bases, his arms raised in a jubilant gesture of triumph as he completed his desecration of baseball. Fireworks filled the night sky to mark the utter destruction of the national pastime, a scramble for the infamous baseball broke out in the stands, and the game was interrupted for 10 minutes in the bottom of the fifth to mark the shameful occasion.

Mike Bacsik, the pitcher who made the difficult and admirable decision to pitch to Bonds as if he were a normal player, and who will forever be known as the man whose fastball was sent out of the park along with the last remnant of baseball's self-respect, could only watch. Bonds would later present Bacsik with an autographed bat...



And it continues from there.

[Va Lefty]

93. As Ross Perot (impersonated by Dana Carvey) would say...

"That's just pee in your pants funny."