Muscle car fans from the 60's and early 70's: Did the Judge really rule? (1969 Pontiac GTO Judge)

[brentspeak]

That was the line from the Paul Revere and the Raiders' commercial for the Judge: "The Judge will rule!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAzRFbj-F_4

The muscle cars from that era were awesome.

[Oeditpus Rex]

1. No

The '69 Pontiac H.O. 400 engine put out 360 horsepower at 5,100 RPM and 445 foot-pounds of torque at 3,600. The '69 Chevy L89 427 with aluminum heads, solid lifters and three two-barrel carbs had truly awesome numbers (435 HP at 5,800 RPM, 460 ft./lbs. of torque at 4,000 RPM), and in the lighter Corvette would hit 60 in 4.3 seconds and turn 11s in the quarter-mile.

I knew a guy with a '70 Judge and, while fast, it wasn't a neck-snapper.

[GOPisEvil]

2. ...and it got gallons to the mile...

:D

I had a '66 Impala with a 396 for a brief while. I swear I could see the gas gauge move downward.

[billyskank]

3. I suppose there had to be a downside

I just calculated my car's max torque; 206 foot lbs, which sounds puny by comparison. But at least it can get 30mpg so I suppose there is a benefit. And it's still quite quick. :)

[GOPisEvil]

4. I bet your car is roughly half the weight of that Impala, too.

The Impala was a full-size, two door car, all steel body panels.

This is it:

[billyskank]

6. Mine's one of these

The sedan variant, not the wagon. It won't go down a drag strip like those muscle cars (0-62 in 7.3) but it'll manage nigh on 150mph. :)

[GOPisEvil]

9. Plus, yours will corner. That Impala didn't much like to turn.

I've never driven a battleship, but I have a feeling about what it's like.

I've got an Infiniti G20 now. It corners as if it is on rails. It's quick, too. Much better mileage as well.

[billyskank]

15. It does. The suspension's stiffened and it sticks to the road really nicely.

Not that I throw it into the corners, I don't really do that much.

My brother's got one of these:



172bhp in a car the size of a sneaker. It's completely mental, and it handles like a go-kart.

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Funny thing about the Mule (my BelAir)

It wouldn't corner, yeah, but I could put that thing in places you wouldn't think a car that size would go. One time I had to get in the right lane to make a turn, and this bastard wouldn't let me in; he stayed right on my right rear fender. Finally, I had to get over or miss the turn, so I jerked the wheel to the right — and I swear it felt like the car went sideways without going forward. I got in the right lane with about three feet between me and the guy behind me, and when I looked in the mirror he was shaking his fist at me. :D

I guess I just drove it so much that it kinda became part of me. :shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

8. I had one very similar to that

Mine was a BelAir, and it was a freakin' four-door. :(

Had a 283 and a Powerglide, but, oh, I kept that sucker tuned. One night I beat a '65 Olds with a 425 — not because I was faster, but because I out-drove him. :D

[GOPisEvil]

10. The only reason I ever bought an Impala is because my dad had one.

He had a '66 SS with the 283 and the powerglide. He took it to Europe when he was sent by the Air Force. He got many offers from Germans to buy it at a premium, but declined. Turns out he sold it a year after we got back to the states.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. I inherited mine

Folks bought it in '68, and we hauled a trailer to Colorado and back with it that summer. In '74 I put a new engine in it with money I'd saved from my paper route, and my dad signed it over to me. :D

When you're that age, the first thing you care about is having wheels. Having cool wheels is secondary.

[GOPisEvil]

14. My first car was an orange Datsun 210, also inherited.

It didn't do much, but it got me from A to B.

[Oeditpus Rex]

17. Oh, christ

Did it have those hideous "honeycomb" wheel covers? :D

[GOPisEvil]

19. Thankfully, no.

No hubcaps. "Styled steel wheels" I believe they were called. I think the honeycomb wheel covers were on models from the '70s B-210s. Mine was just a 210 - no "B".

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. Ah, gotcha

I had a girlfriend then with a '74 710. It came with those wheel covers, but I talked her into putting a set of Cragar SS wheels and T/As on it. Made all the difference in the world.

[Oeditpus Rex]

5. And they required premium fuel

The L89 had 11:1 heads and the '69 Pontiac H.O. 400 had 10.75:1s. You don't run that kind of heat on 89 octane.

But then, 94-95 octane fuel in 1969 was about 36 cents per gallon. And it had lead in it. :patriot:

(You're lucky you had the Impala 396. With the early high-performance 396s and 427s with solid lifters, you couldn't keep the valves adjusted. There was a joke back then that if you were watching a race with one, you'd better be ready to duck the rocker arms and pushrods flying through the hood.)

[GOPisEvil]

7. Unfortunately, I wasn't THAT much of a wrench-head back then.

I could keep the thing running ok, but I think it had issues beyond my abilities. Certainly the body work needed was beyond my skills (and budget). Now that I know more, I'd like to give it another try, but with a car in better condition.

Back then I wouldn't have known what you meant by your post. Now I do.

[Oeditpus Rex]

11. I wouldn't have known, either :)

I mean, I knew what a compression ratio was, but not what it did. I didn't understand that everything in an engine has to be tuned in harmony. I figured stuff like big pistons + big cam + big carb = faster.

I did a ton of very-amateur body work on the Mule, too. For awhile, it was three different colors of primer. :crazy:

(I did do a fiberglas job I was pretty proud of, though — replaced a rusted-out bit of a fender panel behind the right rear wheel. You couldn't tell unless you got close.)

[GOPisEvil]

13. I'd love to have something to play with again.

Something within my budget and skill level this time. Maybe a mid-60s Chevy truck.

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. That's what I have now

That is, if you consider an El Camino a truck, which I do.

I don't play with it anymore because of financial concerns. But when I do maintenance on it, it sure is fun to work on a car I can work on.

See? :D

[GOPisEvil]

21. That would work.

Financial concerns suck. x(

[Oeditpus Rex]

25. Seriously

The last thing of consequence I did to it was to start re-doing the interior; that was two summers ago. I still don't have the new headliner in, and I've still gotta build new enclosures behind the seat for all six speakers, because I'm NOT cutting the new door panels. But I did get the seat, carpet and dash re-done.



During:





After:

[RetroLounge]

18. Nah, the judge did not rule...

neither did the Impala, but I had one.

1965 Impala Super Sport, 327, 4bbl, Powerglide, 2000 stall speed converter, 4:11 Posi Rear End, Black on Black.

Looked something like this:



My bro had a '63 Impala SS. All my friends had 60's cars. THis was the late 70's, when you could get a Super Sport for $200, like I did.

:hi:

RL

[GOPisEvil]

22. Former Impala owners of the world, unite!

:hi:

[RetroLounge]

27. Word!

:hi:

RL

[Oeditpus Rex]

29. I had BelAirs

I'll sit in the back of the room. :blush:

[RetroLounge]

32. Actually, my favorite has become the lowly Biscayne

Post and a Big Block!

Those are bad ass!

With black suede primer. :drool:

RL

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. Sleeper

Run it through some low-dB Flowmasters and nobody'll know. :evilgrin:

[RetroLounge]

35. Exactly...

Sleepers rule!

RL

[The Traveler]

39. My first car was a 1965 Impala

327, 4 bbl carb, etc. After some, uh, modest modifications (of which my father remain ignorant until he borrowed the car one day) it performed quite well. It was universally known as "The Green Machine" (because of its color, not its gentle impact on the environment). It was definitely a neck snapper. It also had a roomy back seat .... :evilgrin: ... lots of good memories around that car ...

[AngryAmish]

45. I had a 76 Impala

I inherited the family car. NOT a racer, but it was huge.

[Oeditpus Rex]

23. Yeah!

Loved the taillights on those. :thumbsup:

Which 327 was it? They made 'em with 250, 300, 350 and 365 horsepower.

[RetroLounge]

26. The 327 was from a Vette with a 4 bolt main

with ported .202 heads, or some shit like that...

It had some balls, even for a huge monster of a car...

But I loved just cruising and letting the cam lobe over at idle, and hear those Horses speak thru the headers...

Plus, it was a bedroom on wheels :D

RL

[Oeditpus Rex]

28. If it had .202 heads

it was either the 350 or 365-horse; I'm not sure. Only difference was the 365 had solid lifters (and, one assumes, a slightly different cam grind). Either way, those are some nice ponies, even for a 4,000-pound car.

Mine was a highway cruiser; it had a 3:08 rear, and I always thought the 1-2 was too early, so I removed the linkage rod from the carb and made it into a shifter. When I needed acceleration, I'd keep it in low and throw the shift when I felt the curve peak.

The thing about Powerglides is you can't break 'em. The one in my El Camino is the original; it has 335,000 miles on it. :thumbsup:

And, yeah — I lost my virginity in my BelAir. Several times. :D

[RetroLounge]

31. "I lost my virginity in my BelAir. Several times"

:rofl:

yeah, me too... :D

RL

[brentspeak]

36. $200? Now that's what you call the "good ol' days".

[havocmom]

30. my big brother wanted one

He bought himself a brand new 'cuda in 71. He still drives it.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Hugin]

37. Yes.

:P

[brentspeak]

38. Here's a picture of the Judge

[Fire Walk With Me]

40. Prolly the Hemi 'Cuda or the Hurst/Olds AMX. Or the 63 split-window Corvette.

[flvegan]

41. Not even close. 1969 ZL1 Corvette could eat anything.

Thank you, Zora. The ZL1 was an option on top of the L88 option that year. They tried this with the LT2 (454) engine as well, but I don't think that they actually built any of them.

Take that, Cobra.

[jrandom421]

42. Not even close

A list of muscle cars that would eat a Judge for breakfast:

1969 Mercury Cyclone GT/Ford Torino Cobra Jet 428
1970 Dodge Daytona/Plymouth SuperBird
1970 Plymouth Hemi-Cuda
1970 Ford Mustang Boss 429
1966 Chapparal 2G
1967 Ford GT40
1970 Olds 442
1962 Ferrari GTO 250

[Gold Metal Flake]

43. Chapparal?

Trying to see if we are awake? That's a race car, not a street car.

The Boss 429 was a homologation special what had tremendous potential with it's massive hemi heads, but was undercammed and had a tiny 735cfm carb. A Judge could mess with a stock Boss 429 due to the Pontiacs torque.

Judge against a Cobra Jet? Bye, bye Pontiac.

But, the 428CJ was only rated at 335HP, right?

Yeah, that's right. Heh heh.

Anyways, I have here a January 1969 issue of Car & Driver with a test of six "Econo racers" of which the Judge was one. All had automatic transmissions, a stipulation of the test. All had the pathetically skinny factory Ployglass GT-type tires that muscle cars rode on in those days.

Chevell 396 (3.55:1 gears)

Plymouth Super Bee 383 Magnum (3.55:1 gears)

Ford Cobra 428 CJ (the stripper Torino, not the aluminum-bodied race car with race engines that no stock 'Vette or Camaro could touch, sorry Flavegan) (3.50:1 gears)

Mercury Cyclone 428 CJ (3.91:1 gears, to contrast with the Cobra)

Road Runner with a Hemi (3.55:1 gears)

Da Judge (3.54:1 gears)

Slolom and braking tests were performed but lets look at...
1/4 mile times:

Chevell 396 14.41 @ 116mph

Plymouth Super Bee 383 Magnum 14.04 @ 129mph

Ford Cobra 428 CJ 14.04 @ 129mph (same as Bee, Bee lighter)

Mercury Cyclone 428 CJ (3.91:1 gears, to contrast with the Cobra) 13.94 @ 116mph

Road Runner with a Hemi (3.55:1 gears) 13.54 @ 142mph big surprise there

Da Judge (3.54:1 gears) NOT TESTED!! It was a ringer car with a '68 4 speed engine, non-stock cam, jetted richly (all cars had to have emmisions crap on and operational) and timing bumped AND non-stock wider tires.

Pontiac Cheated and was busted for it.

With all ofnthose cars, stuff changed greatly with the addition of headers, deeper gears, better timing and carbs and free-flowing air cleaners. The were places to start.

[brentspeak]

44. Reading all this complicated car terminology, I really wish I took a high school auto class

How'd you wrench-heads learn all this stuff?

[Oeditpus Rex]

46. Mostly by reading

[flvegan]

49. Hold on...you want to put a 14 sec 428CJ against a 10 sec ZL1?

Jeebus, I can name 5 cars off the top of my head that'll make that CJ look completely stupid, and the 428 driver can pick his/her gears.

[Gold Metal Flake]

50. Um, no...

I wrote:

the stripper Torino, not the aluminum-bodied race car with race engines that no stock 'Vette or Camaro could touch, sorry Flavegan

Read more carefully next time.

[Auggie]

47. What about the AMC Javelin?

One of the cars I learned to drive on. It had a huge engine -- a V-8, I think, with a four-speed manual.

[Gold Metal Flake]

48. It would have had the 390 as an optional engine.

I think the 401 came out in 1971. The Javelin and the similar but shorter two-seat AMX were cool cars. While they had limited success, the AMXs did battle it out with the Camaros and the Mustangs on the road courses in Trans Am. AMC built some audacious Street performance cars in the late 1960s. The Rebel Machine and the SC/Rambler with their wild graphics are so cool. AMCs have a loyal following, and make frequent appearances in Car Craft magazine, which is also Mopar-friendly.