A Church / State Question for Fellow Atheists

[Ladyhawk]

I sing in a local community chorus that's based at a public junior college. I've never had a problem singing classical music and some Christmas music that's Christian. I consider such things "heritage" pieces. But tonight I learned we're doing two hymns, one of which I absolutely hate: "Amazing Grace."

The lyrics express the repulsive idea of original sin and Jesus being the only way to heaven. I especially want to puke when I hear the "that saved a wretch like me" part. I actually got physically ill when the chorus sang it this evening. I was raised strict fundy and the scars still hurt.

Is "Amazing Grace" appropriate for a chorus that receives state funding? I hate to raise a stink, but I'm really quite upset.

Input?

[onebigbadwulf]

1. Lyrics express no such thing.

The lyrics are ambiguous and non-specific. Just like the term "In God we Trust".


There is no problem with the song.


No mention of Jesus or heaven.


Chorus:
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now am found
Was blind but now I see

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved
Oh how precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed

Chorus

Shall I be wafted to the skies
On flowery beds of ease
While others strive to win the prize
And sail on bloody seas

Chorus

[ConcernedCanuk]

9. "While others strive to win the prize, And sail on bloody seas " . . . .

.
.

I don't know about the REST of the song, ...

But I do know who comes to mind here,

and he sure ain't religious (just claims to be)

[LearnedHand]

2. It's sickening and inappropriate for a state-funded school

It means nothing BUT the implied grace of some omnipotent god for our inbred sins. It not only implies, it states clearly, that we need "saving." Furthermore, it has always been appropriated by people who divide the world into those who are going to hell and those who are going to heaven. I might not raise a stink, but I'd surely lodge my protest.

[Ladyhawk]

4. You're absolutely correct about the meaning of the song

and the meaning that fundamentalist Christians ascribe to it. The man who actually wrote the song was a wretch (a slaver), but the doctrine of original sin contends that we are all wretches unless we accept Jesus. Therefore, I'm a wretch.

I felt sick to my stomach just typing that. All my life I heard, "Humans are basically evil" and "you have no worth without Jesus."

Yes, I've rejected the religion, but some of the nasty stuff has really stuck with me, especially since I have no atheist friends. The wounds get opened anew regularly.

[Ladyhawk]

5. The difficulty is that this is a mostly fundy county.

If I lodge a protest or refuse to sing the music, the others will think I'm raising a stink and be angry with me.

[ProudGerman]

3. I wouldn't raise a stink

But I also would refrain from participating in any concerts where that song will be showcased. You don't like the song, you have your reasons, don't sing it.

[madrchsod]

6. amazing grace

ok amazing is ok but grace is a bad word.
"saved a wretch like me",now that sounds ok but it was the bad word (grace) that saved me so it not ok to be saved from my wretched life if i am grateful or gracious?
"i once was lost but now i`m found- was blind but now i see" i guess i should never change my life, if lost- stay lost,if blind- stay blind to those things around me.
i chose to live by the meanings in this song.

[Ladyhawk]

7. The question isn't whether you agree with the lyrics or not,

the question is: Is this an appropriate song for a state-funded class? Basically, it says that people are "wretches" that need to be saved by the Christian deity.

[Ladyhawk]

8. Kick

Sorry about the thread-pimping, but I'd like to get some more opinions. This is preying on my mind.

[Iverson]

10. subtext, context, and all that

You are responding to the connotation of the song, and we all know that the "real" meaning of the song is more important than the literal meaning of the words. Unfortunately, since the interpretive act is subjective, you'd have a hard time making your case up against that literal meaning.

Also, a rousing chorus of Vivaldi's "Gloria" or the Hallelujah chorus from Handel's Messiah aren't that far off the same message.

Maybe you can lodge a slightly different kind of protest. Demand equal time for Randy Newman's Faust. It's a scream!

:D

[NoPasaran]

11. It gives me the creeps when I hear it

I don't think it's appropriate in a secular setting.

[RainDog]

13. It's a beautiful song with a long tradition in America

..in the same way that slave spirituals are beautiful songs and also, in my opinion, are rightfully sung in any setting, like the famously great Fisk Jubilee Singers, for instance.

No song, no text is inherently forbidden, it seems to me, and to think or act as though it is is intellectually stunting and stupid.

It's the context in which things are presented that matter, as far as where someone is in their intellectual development.

To sing Amazing Grace as though no one in America is familiar with evangelical ideas and will thus have a moment of revelation is, frankly, funny to me, but then I have relatives by marriage who are American Christian missionaries to the former Holy Roman Empire, so what do I know about amazing grace? :)

Some of the greatest songs of liberation in America have been songs based upon Biblical messages, like Go Down Moses or John the Revelator.

It's important for each of us to development an awareness of the ideological foundations of various attitudes in our country, and education is the way to do this, including education about songs which have been part of our entire history.

I also think The Internationale is a beautiful song, though I do not support the abuses of history that took place in the name of the ideals embodied in that song. That doesn't mean the song is corrupt, even though Stalin was.

He doesn't "own" that song.

I think that song is as important for Americans to know as any other in order to be aware of world history and also the history of America in the 20th century.

[Loonman]

12. Does the chorus sing songs with sentiments from other religions?

?

[Ladyhawk]

21. No. eom

[Bertha Venation]

14. Do what I did in 7 yrs w/ non-profit community chorus: ACT.

If you hate to raise a stink, don't. I guarantee you, Ladyhawk, it will cause you far more stress than it's worth. Your pointing out this conflict, which most folks wouldn't see as a conflict at all, won't become a case before SCOTUS; ACLU won't be interested merely because they have bigger fish to fry; etc.

I'm not slamming you for your concerns. I share your concerns. I sang for seven years with a GLBT/friendly community chorus, and the director brought in "sacred" music from Judaism, Christianity, and a couple of African-god and African-spirit chants & the like, each season. Honestly, people only cried "FOUL" when it was a Christian theme.

Most of us didn't like the Christian stuff because most of us came from Christian backgrounds where we were told we're shit because we're gay. But in time I, and most everyone else who hated singing the Christian stuff, got over ourselves (no offense meant but that's what it was) and learned to lose ourselves in the music and ACT when it came to the text.

That's my two cents.

edited to add: yes, we rec'd public funds

[Ladyhawk]

18. Somehow I can't imagine Christians NOT crying foul if Muslim music,

Hindu music, or even--gasp!--freethought music was the subject matter in a community chorus. Our chorus only sings neutral secular and Christian sacred music. I have no doubt that the fundies in our chorus would come unglued if presented with the same predicament I'm in. Can you imagine the ruckus if the chorus was expected to sing something like "Freedom from Religion" by Dan Barker?

Honestly, I think that any "heritage" pieces that are religious are fine, but hymns come too close to the border between acceptable and unacceptable...at least for me. "Amazing Grace" makes me feel sick to my stomach.

>I sang for seven years with a GLBT/friendly community chorus, and >the director brought in "sacred" music from Judaism, Christianity, >and a couple of African-god and African-spirit chants & the like, >each season. Honestly, people only cried "FOUL" when it was a >Christian theme.

[fudge stripe cookays]

15. Just mouth the words?

Would anyone know? ;-)

[Ladyhawk]

16. The song makes me feel like vomiting.

I really don't know what I'm going to do.

[baldguy]

17. The personification of Grace is a greek idea.

http://groups.msn.com/TheGreekMythologyAge/thethreegraces.msnw

snip

Graces, in Greek mythology, the three goddesses of joy, charm, and beauty. The daughters of the god Zeus and the nymph Eurynome, they were named Aglaia (Splendor), Euphrosyne (Mirth), and Thalia (Good Cheer). The Graces presided over banquets, dances, and all other pleasurable social events, and brought joy and goodwill to both gods and mortals. They were the special attendants of the divinities of love, Aphrodite and Eros, and together with companions, the Muses, they sang to the gods on Mount Olympus, and danced to beautiful music that the god Apollo made upon his lyre. In some legends Aglaia was wed to Hephaestus, the craftsman among the gods. Their marriage explains the traditional association of the Graces with the arts; like the Muses, they were believed to endow artists and poets with the ability to create beautiful works of art. The Graces were rarely treated as individuals, but always together as a kind of triple embodiment of grace and beauty. In art they are usually represented as lithe young maidens, dancing in a circle. I Greco-Roman mythology, the three Graces (or Charites, plural of Greek Charis, meaning grace). The sisters Euphrosyne (mirth) and Thalia (bringer of flowers), Aglaia (splendor) belonged to a triad of female deities who were venerated as spirits of vegetation in ancient Greece and were later adopted in Roman mythology. They were the daughters of Zeus and the sea-nymph Eurynome, daughter of Oceanus, and they lived on Mount Olympus with the other immortals. Their task was to attend to Aphrodite, goddess of sexual love. The Graces are related to other offspring of Zeus, the nine Muses (deities of the arts and inspiration) and the three Seasons (or Hours; Horae). The Graces can be further related to the motif of the "Triple Goddess", which occurs in many different mythological traditions. The youngest of the Graces, Aglaia was reputedly the most beautiful. During the Middle Ages, the three Graces were used in Christian iconography to represent beauty, charity, and love.

[Ladyhawk]

19. Fundies define it differently, however.

It doesn't matter how the Greeks defined it. The author of "Amazing Grace" had something quite different in mind.

[Ladyhawk]

20. The song is borderline, but probably falls under the category of

a "heritage" piece. That doesn't mean I have to like it or sing it. I know what it means and I know what the fundies think it means: I'm a wretch who is going to hell. I was a fundy for 18 years. I should know what they're thinking.

Luckily, the director and I reached an understanding today. I won't be required to sing the hymns. That puts me in the same position of the kid in class who won't say the pledge of allegiance: on the spot.

I do feel there's a double-standard here. I know for a fact the Christians in the chorus would have a fit if we sang something from another religion, or something that was blatantly "freethought" like "Freedom from Religion."

I've sung in the chorus for years and have never before found a piece offensive, most probably because this time it feels personal. "Amazing Grace" was a staple in my church and fundy school. I got more than my share of crazy fundy ideas when I was growing up and it still hurts. I have to find some non-religious friends. Where the hell are they???

[BlueJazz]

22. I can only tell you how I feel.

If it was me, I would refuse to be a part of the song or the singing
of such a song.

I (naturally) would not expect you or anyone else to go to such extremes.

On the other hand, if you think that someday, in the future, you'll be sorry that you didn't stand up for your beliefs ( Now)...Well then, you know what to do.. :)

[displacedtexan]

23. Think of it as history.

a relic of a time when the enlightened were completely oppressed by Puritans.