When did this country start going to hell?

[taterguy]

[wildhorses]

1. from the moment of our pinnacle of success

there was no place to go but down from that point...

[taterguy]

3. What point was that?

[wildhorses]

4. i am thinking -- june 6, 1944

of course we thought at the time that we were soaring but, in hind sight...i think that was our finest hour. downhill from there...

[MrCoffee]

2. Morning in America, man.

fuck St. Ronnie

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

5. When it was stolen away from the Native Americans ...

and then there is slavery and other crimes...

[wildhorses]

25. ding .ding .ding.

we have a winner!!!

[qnr]

40. Hah! They were immigrants too! Back to Asia with them!

Just teasing.

[QMPMom]

6. Election night 1980, I stood in the Democratic Headquarters in my small town,

where my Grandpa had been a big cog in the Republican Wheel, and cried like a baby. His political and business rivals were stunned to see a relative of "His" so upset at a Republican win.

Reagan was the beginning of our shame. The fact that he was elected still embarrasses me.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

13. I couldn't believe that he was elected...

I couldn't believe when an elderly gent, whose opinion I had respected, said to me, "Ronald Reagan would make a good president!"

[Skittles]

37. you are correct, QMPMom

1980 truly was the start - reagan was a true piece of shit and it boggles my mind to this day that so many people fell for his act

[Yavin4]

7. Reagan Thoroughly Destroyed The Roosevelt Coalition

and from that point onward, our government has been openly hostile to working class Americans.

[Crabby Appleton]

8. 1492 nt

[ThomCat]

10. Hell, yes.

I think this question implies a time before it this country was hellish. It comes in cycles, but we've never been as good a country as some people think we were.

[dysfunctional press]

9. the moment that the enola gay dropped her payload on hiroshima.

nt

[Sequoia]

11. Okay.

That sounds about right.

One thing I find puzzling was after reading "Fatal Voyage" who had on their ship some of the stuff to drop the bomb yet there were no escort ships with the USS Indianapolis. If bombing Japan was so important to the war effort why was there no escort ships when know Japenese submarines were in the area and could have eaisly blown up the ship before it reached its destination and off-loaded the bomb material?

[krispos42]

28. Probably because task forces draw attention

A single ship will not draw too much attention from bombers. And the trip from San Fransisco to Tinian in 1945 was probably pretty safe, with the Japanese surface fleet nearly non-existent and long-range Japanese aircraft out of the area. A destroyer or destroyer escort did not have the fuel capacity to travel at those speeds for that long of a time either. For example a Fletcher-class destroyer's range was 5,500 nautical miles at 15 knots. Trying to keep up with the Indianapolis would probably only give the destroyer a 2,500 mile range.

Only a cruiser or capitol ship has the capacity to travel long distances at high speed. Bringing the components of "Little Boy" to Tinian, the Indianapolis set a new record. Google Earth says it's 5,670 statue miles from the Golden Gate to Tinian, which she did in ten days. That's 567 miles a day, on average. That's not quite 24 miles per hour, about 21 knots, on average, pretty good for a ship. And if she was zig-zagging to make it hard for a submarine to hit her, you can add about 10% to her distance traveled and thus her average speed.

It is hard for a submarine to intercept a fast-moving ship because the sub had to stay submerged to avoid detection by radar. Underwater, those old diesel-electric boats could only move at about 10 knots, and only for an hour or so. Against a fast-moving target, the sub already had to be just about smack-dab in the path of the ship. The torpedoes of the day were not guided, they simply ran straight out of the tubes. The submarine captain had to determine the target's course, get into position, determine a firing solution, then wait until the target was at the right bearing before firing torpedoes, usually from less than two miles. If the target changed course or speed, the firing solution was trashed and you had to start over. And there was about a two-minute delay between the firing of the torpedoes and the impact, during which the wakes of the torpedoes might be spotted by a lookout and evasive action taken. The wakes of the torpedoes pointed right back to where the sub was, by the way.

And radar could pick up a periscope, too.

The Japanese submarine I-58 got lucky. CINCPAC didn't escort the Indianapolis from Tinian to Leyte Gulf with destroyers (which they SHOULD have done). The Indianapolis wasn't going all out like she had been before, only 17 knots, and apparantly she also wasn't zig-zagging.




I suppose if you break out the :tinfoilhat: you could come up with some theory about how the Navy wanted the cruiser sunk to hide some sort of evidence, and they got the ship sunk in some of the deepest parts of the Pacific.

[Sequoia]

34. Thanks for the info.

The captain of the I-58 said it wouldn't have mattered if Cap'n McVay was zi-zagging or not because he still would've been able to hit the ship. McVay was the ONLY one who lost a ship who was court-martialed. The Navy brass did know about Japenses subs in the area but didn't relay the info. Crazy.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. Nov. 22, 1963 (n/t)

[Bullwinkle925]

29. Hear, Hear my friend! . . .

I second your emotion!!!!! Nothing has been *the same* since that damned day.

:cry:

[sarge43]

44. Second that n/t

[KitchenWitch]

14. Three words (six letters each) - Ronald Wilson Reagan

[taterguy]

15. Rearrange the letters and it spells Insane Anglo Warlord

I didn't make that up, I saw it on a t-shirt

[KitchenWitch]

16. That is funny!

in the ironic way.

[raccoon]

35. Thanks for sharing that. nt

[Flaxbee]

17. Eisenhower warned us, and very few listened

When big business/the MIC realized what HUGE profits there were in war. Exacerbated, of course, by that shit RWReagan, who actually managed to produce a very fine, thoughtful child in Ron Reagan Jr. Go figure.

I think the decision to drop the bombs in Japan was horrendous, though really very much in line with the slaughter of the Native Americans, slavery, etc. The very calculated manipulations after that to incite wars whenever, wherever, for money, signal the real insidious decline of this country.

It has almost ALWAYS been profit before humanity, exploitation of the weak - whether in this country or others. It just seems we have practiced it to perfection, all the while wearing the innocent mask of the valiant protectors of democracy and human rights worldwide. Who, us? We do good everywhere we go! Yeah, right.

[Xipe Totec]

18. When Beelzeboob became emperor of the USA n/t

[NoPasaran]

19. When Dylan went electric

[Initech]

20. Reagan pretty much marked the beginning of the end

Huge corporate criminal asshole, who catered very well to the other huge corporate criminal assholes in the country.

[Joe Fields]

21. Right after Paul Lynde left Hollywood Squares

[taterguy]

36. That was a dark dark day for America

[Art_from_Ark]

39. I thought it was when Mrs. Peel left The Avengers

Things just weren't the same after that

[sarge43]

45. When Star Trek (OS) was cancelled. n/t

[Kali]

22. about 13,000 years ago with the arrival of us

nah, that is too anthropocentric

[Va Lefty]

23. June 6, 1968

RFK was our last best chance for government based on fairness, compassion and justice. Bobby gets elected in '68: Vietnam War ends in '69, no Nixon, no Nixon-no Watergate, no Watergate-no Carter, no Carter-no Reagan etc etc. We have an entirely different history if RFK is not killed

[yellowdogintexas]

31. excellent point. nt

[mvd]

24. Nixon's election

Nixon - the root of today's neocons.

[baldguy]

46. That's it: all of today's neocons want to be Nixon.

He was the ur-neocon.

[Danger Mouse]

26. Saint Ronnie. Without a doubt.

Our country was in the toilet. Ronnie flushed it.

[ashling]

27. 1607

Jamestown founded - all downhill from there

[HughBeaumont]

30. "Let's make America great again"

I think it went to hell before them. These two merely widened the entrance.

[underpants]

32. I blame Beckham

actually it all started with a memo by Lewis Powell to the chamber of commerce

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/powell_memo_lewis.html

[underpants]

33. I blame Beckham

actually it all started with a memo by Lewis Powell to the chamber of commerce

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/powell_memo_lewis.html

[Seabiscuit]

38. I recall first mentioning this country had gone to hell in a handbasket shortly after

Ronnie was elected.

I couldn't believe that after what happened with Nixon that some fourth-rate right wing moron actor could be elected President. It was about the time he cut school lunch program funding and called ketchup a "vegetable".

[enigmatic]

41. Two Words

"Moral Majority".

[RFKHumphreyObama]

42. Election Day 1980

Nixon and his associates were a bunch of corrupt and devious crooks but they nevertheless were quite centrist in terms of the way they ran the country in terms of policy. And there were still a considerable number of liberal Republicans both in Congress and in the Nixon Administration to ensure some balance and perspective in political ideology.

Reagan, by contrast, did much more damage in terms of domestic and foreign policy and many of the philosophies, ideals and values that today's Republicans adhere to were developed during the Reagan Administration. His election coincided with the election of a number of right wing conservative ideologues to Congress -such as Duncan Hunter -which ensured that the GOP's policy agenda shifted to the radical Right and it marked the beginning of the end for the liberal and moderate Republicans in the party. This in turn meant that, by the time of the Republican Revolution in 1994, the party was dominated by right wing partisan ideologues who insisted in pursuing their own zealous agenda which in turn has had a serious negative impact on the nation.

[HughBeaumont]

48. Nixon at least started the EPA, an idea noble at least in principle.

Reagan sodomized the middle class, set the precedent for crony capitalism and made hatred fashionable again. Notice how many hate/skinhead/white power groups expanded ten-fold during his and 41's rule?

[Maccagirl]

43. I agree with all the posters about RR Superstar

With all of the terrible history of discrimination against Blacks, Native Americans and women, at least it appeared the country was righting some wrongs and PROGRESSING toward a fairer, more just society. That is, until Reagan and his neo-con pals took over. He was the perfect frontman (with the calming, syrupy voice and the "aren't we the greatest" meme. Along with the anti-government government, he really laid the foundation for ruin with the takeover of the judicial system. That is the branch of government that is the least accountable and hardest to change-and possibly the most powerful-and Reagan knew it. To this day the media is "on bended knee" re Ronnie and it bewilders me to no end.

[regularguy]

47. When the trilateral commission

instituted the designated hitter rule. That and Reagan.

[Deja Q]

49. The day we handed more money over to Shell?

(that'll nix my urge to copycat this thread...)

[kernelfarmer]

50. When Ronnie fired the Air Traffic Controllers

That was a major hit to organized labor everywhere.