Some of the best brass playing in the nineteen sixties...

[WileEcoyote]

Wasn't even done on the trumpet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQCi6ASHVUM

On the EXTREMELY DEPRESSING Beatles "For No One" tune there still remains the best recorded short French Horn solo in history. The soloist, Alan Civil plays it twice.

His obituary is here: http://www.hornplayer.net/archive/a51.html

Makes you almost forget about David Mason's piccolo trumpet solo on "Penny Lane".

I own both instruments: Pic and French Horn. Not the descant horn as i strongly suspect is used on this Lennon/McCartney song though. Just the single B flat. However even if I had the descant version i suspect it would still be a tough blow.

Accurate is what it is.

Another characteristic: A lot of Beatles tunes used a sped up version of the vocals and the instruments on the final mix. Hides a few weak spots and tuning matters. I believe that "For No One" uses this trick*.

Reason? It's in a terrible key. You can blow it on your flugel horn but it will be in the key of D Flat. Add all the friggin 1, 2 & 3 valve combinations to 2 & 3 back & forth played on the left hand and you've got some tricky fingers in it's existing play back key. It's nearly the same fingerings on the B flat side of the French Horn. True you can play a D Flat second valve (B Flat horn only) but most horns go low in pitch on that note.

And in concert pitch it is located somewhere in between the key of B Flat an B Natural. Rock guitarists are notorious for doing crap like that. They can do whatever the hell they want so long as the neck and fretboard is well balanced. With a brass instrument you can only go so flat or so sharp without screwing up the instrument.

No brass instrument (especially the French Horn) even plays in tune with itself.

A single B flat French Horn is the functional equivalent of a valve trombone.

Now even if you use a descant horn I'd expect that this would only alter it to another miserable key for the left hand like G Flat or A Flat. Not much of an improvement.

Trumpet and most other brass instruments: Played righty.

French Horn with your left.

So my guess is that it was recorded a half step lower (Key of "C" for B Flat instruments) and sped up a notch on final feed. Otherwise it's the equivalent of your B Flat below Double C in the harmonic series. A pure octave lower but very "scream like" with all the partials so close together.

I can take a stab on it with my single B Flat but again hard to get a perfect pop on each high tone tone. And my left hand is only "close enough for jazz". I must play it a half step lower to get it in the ballpark. Just too hard to do the tricky fingerings quick with the left hand. And I'm nowhere close to as good a hornist as the bloke blows that one down.

The poor chap Alan Civil passed away in 1989 just short of his sixtieth birthday. From the Royal Philharmonic I believe.

So go listen to the tune now. That's an order! Just make sure your girlfriend didn't dump you within the last month.

"And when she says her love is dead you think she needs you"

That is so depressing of a lyric it makes me laugh my tail off. Excuse me...

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHA

:lol:




*Beginning vocals on "Magical mystery Tour" are clearly sped up a tad. Not like Alvin & The Chipmunks but may a whole step higher. Ditto "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" I think. Clever!

[dbt]

1. Lovely post!

Speaking of the piccolo trumpet on "Penny Lane," the single version released in the US had the most poignant little seven-note riff at the end--where most versions one hears nowadays has only a piercing sustain from the rest of the instruments. Pity, that!

With your obvious grasp of horn technique, could you please explain a little about (what I am taking to be) the big, meaty saxophones on "Savoy Truffle?" How did Sir George get them to snarl and growl like that?

dbt

[WileEcoyote]

2. George Harrison or George Martin?

Both were/are beyond phenomenal musicians.

Saxophone isn't my instrument. None of the reeds are actually. I even flunked Flute Techniques in my sophomore year of college.

Getting a raspy tone on a sax for Rock & Roll is best referred to a solid sax player. My guess is the reed quality plays a part. That and the mouthpiece and ligature.

Reeds come in various numbers. Lower the number, like a #1 reed probably refers toa soft one. #3 a stiff one. Check another source though. Presumably with a stiffer reed you can get more volume and a raspier jazz tone. i think they wear out less quickly.

Brass instruments use air blown through compressed human lips as the vibrating medium or "reed". The tone is processed far differently through the horn than with a reed instrument. In any long tube you may blow a bugle call. i do this at the local plumbing supply for laughs. The gas flex lines of approximately five foot length are best. I leave then in stitches with basic calls like Reveille, Taps, Charge etc. all played on a standard flexible gas line for a water heater or stove. Funny as hell.

In fact it is not the amplification of the vibrating lips that makes the tone. It is the occilation of the standing wave inside the horn.

Ever played the various harmonics on a guitar or other stringed instriment?

Well the second harmonic is played at the middle of the neck. This corresponds to the lowest harmonic playable on the trumpet though not the same pitch. Guitars favor sharp keys like E, D A B etc. A low Concert B Flat played with all valves open if the lowest playable open valved note on the trumpet. The third harmonic is a concert pitch F then the B Flat above is the fourth and so on.

Each harmonic gets closer and closer together as one ascends. It isn't until the extreme upper register that the tones become scaler.

Now that is the reason Baroque trumpet during the time of Johann Sebastian Bach were very long: Brought these scaler notes LOWER in pitch. Still some of the most demanding work ever made for classical trumpet was written by Bach for the natural trumpet. The Brandenburg Number II the most noted one. Easy to give even a strong player a heart attack.

It was THAT particular piece by Bach that inspired Paul McCartney to choose now retired orchestral trumpet player David Mason to record the piccolo trumpet lines in "Penny Lane". Paul has heard that sound the day before and simply had to duplicate the style in his song.

British have always given brass players a lot more respect that here in the states.

But back to physics: Why did the invention of valves (circa 1815) help the Trumpet, Cornet, Tuba and French Horn players? The valves could open or close off different lengths of the horn at the will of the brass player. Where once he had only one specific length horn available to only blow the wide intervals of bugle calls now he could regulate the instrument to play ALL scale tones.

Another way to regulate the length of a modern brass instrument is through the movable slide. Like is found in the trombone. This is a well machined device that needs lubrication regularly and a good innate knowledge of where the specific positions are for a relative note. The quicker a trombonist can find these seven positions the better or faster player he is.

The trombone has it's limitations in technique. Very hard to play songs like "The flight of the bumblebee". The slide must move relatively long distances very fast. Meanwhile all the Trumpet or Cornet player has to do is depress a specific valve.

But slides and valves aren't the only trick: The brass player must have a strong and coordinated "embouchure". He pressurizes his air, sets for a certain note with the correct fingering and hopes and prays the correct tone comes out. A wrong note played by a a tired or incorrectly set embouhure is called "Clam:...

Some trumpet players have a natural gift at upper register production. The greatest high note player of all time was Maynard Ferguson who passed away just over a year ago. Effectively ending the era of the Big Bands though most people regard that as happening inn the fifties. Not so!. Maynard kept his big band traveling and performing most of the year and he was off the road only a week or so before dying of an abdominal infection.

The world may never know a better trumpet player again. To his fans he was considered next to God and holier even than Miles Davis who actually admitted that he admired Maynard.

Miles rarely applauded other trumpet players particularly White dudes which was sad that he expressed so much bitterness to people simply because they were White. But he and Maynard shared the stage at the old "Birdland Dream" Club in New York back in the fifties. They got along well.

Me? I'm a good player but playing mostly in the bush leagues. Have had a few notable gigs. Like with Little Anthony ("Think I'm Goin Out Of My Head), Max Roach and a few other good players.

The trumpet is a HARD instrument to play really well. Especially in the upper register. Long hours of practice and /or pure luck play a role in goo sound production. But when you're cookin' there's no more expressive tone. Not even the human voice.

[dbt]

4. Dayum! You sure know your stuff!

FYI: My reference was to George Martin, whose horn/brass/string/whatEVER arrangements in Beatles songs were always DEAD ON--never a note more or less than the song required, and always the epitome of taste. The "Savoy Truffle" saxes/horns seem to have started a trend for bands like Foreigner and Heart years later.

Heck, one can still hear Beatle Echoes forty years on.

I can play anything with strings on it, and have always envied those witht the gift of (literally) breathing life into an instrument. Thank you for the enlightenment!

[WileEcoyote]

5. Look for George Martin's piano solo during...

"In My Life". Also by Lennon/McCartney, but on the "Rubber Soul" album.

Another top of the line albeit short solo played at symphonic orchestra quality. My guess is that Martin's solo was also sped up a tad during the playback into the final mix recording. Reason? Just a little TOO perfect. A level of keyboard articulation seemingly impossible to arrive at during playback at conventional speeds.

Listen for it: Quite fast, extra "pop" on the attacks and slightly more treble in the tone than a standard piano.

[MilesColtrane]

6. The "Savoy Truffle" saxophone parts were written by Chris Thomas at George Martin's suggestion.

Chris Thomas later went on to mix Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" and the Sex Pistols record.

The part sounds especially meaty because it was written for two baritone, and four tenor saxes. George Martin then distorted the heck out of it by passing it through two high-gain amplifiers. This produced a tightly compressed signal that really saturated the tape.

Genius.

[MissMillie]

3. the french horn is my fav brass instrument

and coincidentally it's featured prominently in the Theme to The West Wing, one of my favorite shows.

[Faygo Kid]

7. Very impressive. I kinda liked "Whipped Cream and Other Delights."

A little Tijuana Brass, a little Hugh Masekela, some Tower of Power and Herbie Mann on the flute, with Ian Anderson, too. I make no claim to sophistication, as you can tell (hey, I at least left off "Winchester Cathedral).

[Bullwinkle925]

9. we also listened to that album when i was growing up . . .

there is hardly a mention here on du of herb alpert & the TB. i liked 'em.

[Bullwinkle925]

8. dayum .. . .. ... .

you're one smart fella. i'm going to listen to the beatles again with a new *ear* thanks to you.

i'm in awe - truly!

:hi: