Name a "just" war

[pokerfan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war

[Lionel Mandrake]

1. World War Two

The US involvement in World War Two was justified, if any war is justified.

What were we supposed to do after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor - turn the other cheek?

What were we supposed to do when Germany declared war on us - become slaves to the Nazis?

[LeftyMom]

5. The counterargument is that the US knew about pearl harbor in advance and let it happen

In any case, I don't know if justified is ever the right word to use for a war, but the US getting dragged into that one was likely inevitable.

[krispos42]

8. I don't think FDR would have done that.

But, who knows?

If we hadn't, Germany would likely have had the bomb first. And London would glow gently in the dark.

The Third Reich would probably have attacked and invaded us in the '50s, after they had consolidated and pacified Europe.

[Lionel Mandrake]

10. FDR loved the Navy.

The idea that FDR let Pearl Harbor be bombed is grotesque. This urban myth is not taken seriously by any historian.

The German project to build a nuclear weapon was hopelessly inadequate, but Allied intelligence didn't know that until 1944.

[pokerfan]

12. On the other hand

The Nazis actually backburnered their atomic program because they believed that it wouldn't produce fruit until too late. Their view was that if they were still fighting the war in several years, it would simply be too late.

Meanwhile, even before Pear Harbor, we had begun development of the B-36 in the event that Britain could fall.

With or without PH, we were gonna wind up in the european war. Some even say that with lend-lease we were already at war.

[Lionel Mandrake]

16. Yes, yes, and maybe, respectively.

I agree with your points about the German nuclear program and about the B-36, but I'm not convinced that US entry into the European war was inevitable.

Although we were officially neutral, our neutrality looked a lot like an unofficial war against Germany. You're right about that. Still, I'm not sure what would have happened if Hitler had not declared war against us. After Pearl Harbor, Americans by and large wanted to fight only Japan, not Germany.

[pokerfan]

20. I hear what you are saying

but consider WWI.

We eventually got involved in WWI, perceived as yet another Euro war in a long series of Euro wars at the time. Wilson even won re-election on keeping us out. Yet we still got involved.

I believe that we knew we were going to get involved in this one sooner or later. Hence, the Lend Lease Act and the B-36.

And while we were intensely sore at Japan, FDR made the war in Europe the priority.

I don't think Hitler's war declaration against us made a hill of beans difference. Hitler was hoping that Japan would declare war against the Soviets in return, which they did not.

Hitler didn't have the infrastructure to invade the British islands let alone mainland U.S.

Now, could the war in Europe have been won without without our overt involvement is an interesting question. Perhaps, but it would have made for an even more depressing cold war.

[Lionel Mandrake]

21. I think Hitler's war declaration against us made a huge difference.

That's where we disagree.

FDR was frustrated. He wanted war with Germany, but knew the public wasn't ready for it. Hitler solved that problem for him and made it possible to give priority to the European war immediately. Without Hitler's declaration of war against us, we would probably have defeated Japan sooner than we did, but neglected Europe, at least for a while and maybe for a long time.

[cobalt1999]

51. I always wondered why Japan allied themselves with Germany

The were allied against Germany in WWI and could easily done the same thing during WWII or, at least, stayed out of any European alliances. They received no real value from the German alliance. Of course getting the Dutch West Indies was a priority for them, but the alliance was not.

Imagine if Japan was officially at war with Germany when Pearl Harbor happened. The US would not have entered the European conflict and Russia would have eventually dominated most of Europe.

History is full of little twists and turns.

[pokerfan]

53. The enemy of my enemy must be my friend

Germany needed the alliance more than did Japan because they thought that Japan would help them deal with the Soviet Union, which Japan never did.

Japan actually broke the alliance in 1939 but then signed the Tripartite pact two years later probably hoping that the war in Europe would split U.S. resources.

Just a giant game of Risk.

With 60,000,000 dead.

[pokerfan]

6. WWII is the obvious choice

Any others?

[Lionel Mandrake]

13. So far, we have only looked at the US entry into WW2.

I would also argue that most of our conduct during the war was justified, but not all of it. I would also argue that the French and British entry into the war was justified.

[pokerfan]

14. How about Poland?

Was their entry justified?

[Lionel Mandrake]

15. They were invaded

by Germany from the West and by the Soviets from the East. I'd say they were justified in fighting as best they could.

[pokerfan]

18. That was tongue in cheek

Were there any allied nations not justified in declaring war?

South Africa?
Peru?
Costa Rica?

[rug]

26. How do you justify 60,000,000 dead?

[Lionel Mandrake]

42. Stalin and Hitler bear some of the responsibility for that.

I wouldn't try to justify their behavior.

[rug]

43. Justify Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Lionel Mandrake]

46. That's not so easy.

Of course, there is a vast literature on the bombing, both nuclear and conventional.

I recommend the book Dresden by Frederick Taylor. It contains arguments pro and con.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

2. WW2.

[Omphaloskepsis]

3. The War on Drugs...

Just Kidding.. I'm wasted right now and thought that would be funny... Ahh fuck, where did I put my ice cream?

[pokerfan]

7. The War on Some Drugs

Alcohol, nicotine, caffeine are all harmless and just fine and dandy.

[Omphaloskepsis]

11. And all of them have a special place in my heart.

A place that will probably have to be operated on in a few years.

[The Straight Story]

4. Revolutionary war, WW2, but not the GD wars against Porn and Receipts

:rofl:

[krispos42]

9. War of 1812

They invaded us.

World War Two, Revolutionary War.

Maybe the Civil War. I think maybe if we hadn't kept the Union together, North America would have been like Europe at the beginning of the 20th Century... all these little independent nations (former states) playing one off against the other. At least until Marxism/Leninism swepth through the slaveholding states and the slaves overthrew their white owners and declared themselves Communist Utopias.

Maybe the Korean War, too. That was the first major test of the United Nations. And it was under threat of nuclear war, too. It proves there was a forum, a process, and international will to discourage aggression, at least some of the time.

[enigmatic]

17. The War On Michael Bolton

I've been fighting on the good side for 20 years! :D

[Downtown Hound]

19. The second Vietnam War

I'm talking about the one that Rambo fought in which he single-handedly wiped out the Vietnamese army. He did it to save his comrades and redeem his country's honor, because after all, Rambo's only desire was to win a war that somebody else lost, and what you choose to call hell, Rambo calls home.

[Jamastiene]

22. Internal war, within an individual...

Deciding what the right thing to do is and doing it. The dilemma between doing what's best and doing what pleases the self in the short term and does damage in the long run.

That's a just was as is a war on poverty, if our sorry ass government ever decides to start one to combat the pitiful conditions poor people have to live in.

[T_i_B]

23. WW2

We were fighting Hitler for goodness sake!

I could also mention the Napoleonic wars and the Falklands for 2 more.

[Lionel Mandrake]

44. You mean la Guerra de las Malvinas?

Some people in Argentina might disagree with you.

[T_i_B]

45. They would be wrong

They were wrong to invade. End of Story.

[RetroLounge]

24. War of the Roses

That one needed fighting



RL

[Orsino]

25. None of them.

War is misery piled on injustice. There may be some just causes in the mix, but the lawlessness of a war zone permits, and covers up for, many atrocities.

[redqueen]

29. Agreed. Some just causes... but mostly situations which were allowed

to develop to the point where war was necessary (e.g. WWII)

We need to get over the war worship already.

[mvd]

33. I agree

War is never started for "just" reasons.

[IndianaJones]

27. Butlerian Jihad. nt.

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. Yes! Absolutely.

The spice must flow!

[Ariana Celeste]

37. haha

:thumbsup:

[Dr. Strange]

38. Bah!

The Zensunni and Zenshiite spit at your jihad!

[LynneSin]

28. RISK!!!!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

39. Funny Thing About Risk

And other games like Civilization. Even we good liberals turn into Donald Freaking Rumsfeld.

You Want a Piece of Me?! HUH? YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME?!!

It allows our "dark side" with an appropriate release.

[LynneSin]

41. Seriously! I'd love to play a massive game of risk with a bunch of DUers

we play until someone either takes over the entire world or basically last person standing.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

47. Wasn't there an online game...

I'm thinking this was 5-6 years ago, where you could start your own country and play in cooperation with, or in competition with, other online players. It predated the current crop of alternate universe games by several years. I signed up for it, but never really did much. The game had its own version of the UN and everything.

[RubyDuby in GA]

30. The Petticoat War

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_history/3032691.html

[Dr. Strange]

32. Star Wars

And maybe the science wars.

[anarch]

34. the timely humanitarian intervention in Darfur

or wait, did you mean things that actually happened?


As far as the history of U.S. involvement, I'd be tempted to go along with WW2, except for those pesky jus in bello considerations...I'm not sure if Dresden and/or Hiroshima & Nagasaki can really be justified, as far as all that goes.

[EstimatedProphet]

35. The War of the Ring - Gondor and Rohan

Clearly the Allied Towers were provoking war with the invasion of Rohan using Uruk-Hai shock troops. Additionally, Sauron's army was the first to attack Gondor. Gondor was entirely justified in fighting back.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

40. Let's not forget the Rebel Alliance against the Empire

Totally Justified...

[skygazer]

36. Actually, the question is deceptive

The world allowed a situation to develop in which Japan and Germany became the threat they did but had that situation not developed, the war would not have been necessary.

There are always people who clearly see the dangers of a given path but they are often shouted down by those who want retribution or momentary satisfaction or some other fleeting thing.

The Civil War was a direct result of the founders not choosing to begin this grand experiment by abolishing slavery. WWII was a direct result of WWI. Vietnam was a result of decisions made during and following WWII. Etc.

Until we pay more attention to history and look more deeply at the consequences of our actions, we will continue to be dragged into wars, some of which may end up being "just" but all of which could have been avoided.

[cobalt1999]

52. True, but hindsight is 20/20

It's a lot harder to see these things while living in the current time. At the end of WWI they called it the Great War and the War to End All Wars for a good reason, most didn't foresee WWII, looking back it seemed almost inevitable though.

I can see many risks in the current world, but only a few may become serious and maybe only 1 or 2 will lead to war. Will we end up in a war with China? What about India? Are Russia and China doomed to go to war?

[AngryAmish]

48. Third Punic War

From Carthage's side. Too bad they lost.

[Arugula Latte]

49. The War on Christmas

The older I get, the more cynical I get about that frickin' holiday. It would be more tolerable if I believed that Jeebus was a magical being who rose from the dead, but, I that shift in my perception ain't gonna happen.

[mwooldri]

50. The English Civil War. (nt)