Another Nirvana poll: Cobain/Nirvana: Prophetic, Derivative, Other?

[blonndee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ6verXK2xU

Other Nirvana nerds: What influence do you see? Disclaimer: I'm in the TENTATIVE process of doing a research paper that includes Nirvana, Cobain, other early 90s bands.

[mark414]

1. not prophetic but absolutely not derivative

so i guess my answer would be other...

i'm not sure of your music knowledge but if want to get down to the heart of nirvana's influences...look into the Melvins, the Meat Puppets or the Pixies. and old folk singer Leadbelly was one of Cobain's favorites...

[blonndee]

2. Thanks...I know a little about the influence of the Melvins

and definitely know about the widespread discussion about Pixies influence and Meat Puppets. When I learned about Leadbelly and "Where did you sleep last night," I was hooked. =) Already a Nirvana fan, but you know what I mean.

[ghostsofgiants]

3. The bands that immediately come to mind when I think Nirvana are Wipers (especially the song "D-7")

And Killing Joke ("The Eighties")

Nirvana covered "D-7" a lot apparently, but the first time I heard the song, I knew they must've been a big influence on Cobain.

[DarkTirade]

4. It was really just a natural evolution... sure they were influenced by other music before them

but they did their own thing. So I wouldn't call it prophetic or derivative.

[Lethe]

5. A little of both I guess

Every musician or group is somewhat derivative. It's impossible to be isolated in some bubble. When writing a song the artist will unconsciously be influenced by what they have heard in the past.

Prophetic? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this term in this context? Do you mean innovative?

I am having trouble answering this question because I feel very subjective about Nirvana. I was in 7th-8th grade when Nevermind came out - and to me, Nirvana was the coolest thing ever. It was classified "alternative." Alternative to what? Check the Billboard 100 in 1992. It was Paula Abdul and bunch of shit "R&B" type pop music. And we just endured all the ridiculous over the top hair metal of the late 1980's. Then enter Nirvana with this scruffy, disheveled, unpretentious guy dressed in ratty clothes playing some distorted but catchy riffs. It was really pop music, but we didn't realize it at the time. So I guess I am biased in the same way that I love Star Wars. If I was 30 when I first saw Star Wars, (or Nirvana), I would probably have a much different opinion about them. But I grew up loving both.

Another point is from a musician's standpoint. I heard that John Lennon was encouraged to be a musician after seeing Buddy Holly. He said (paraphrasing) that if some nerdy guy from lubbock texas can get up there and be a rock star with those thick black glasses then he could do it too. I think a lot of people felt the same way about Nirvana. The songs were really easy and simple to play on guitar. You could learn how to play powerchords, get a fuzzbox, and do the majority of their songs. And Cobain looked like your average guy, no superstar, etc.

[Droopy]

6. Some of their music reminds me of early rock-n-roll in a twisted way

We're talking 50s and early 60s.

[DarkTirade]

16. One of Kurt's (many) influences was pre-rock blues.

which was a major influence on 50s rock. So that makes perfect sense.

[Fading Captain]

7. Of course, derivative ... but, to some extend, who isn't?

There aren't many pop bands out there who aren't taking and adapting other styles and influences.

But I'm getting a little tired of the Nirvana bashing.

He wasn't the great songwriter or guitar player. But the kid could growl into the a microphone like few others.

He expressed emotions pretty damn well, even if the lyrics often belied the energy he put forth.

[Lethe]

8. Welcome to DU!

:)

[DarkTirade]

13. I'm in the camp that thinks he put a bit more work in the lyrics than it appears.

I think he just focused more on the sound and feel of a word instead of trying to make profound lyrics. :)

[TK421]

9. I've seen it before, with bands like The Doors, Zeppelin, ...but his talents

went to waste with his suicide....

This may start a flame-war, I'm sorry if it does... Curt Cobain had the talent to keep a good thing ( like Nirvana ) going, but he let fame and all that it encompasses go to his head. There are bands out there who have survived decades through this and have learned their lesson, but Curt Cobain is a sad example of what can happen to you if you can't handle the pressure...which, from what I have heard, was the case here....he had some issues with depression, which certainly didn't help his situation.

Not really being a music fan ( I've always been a T.V fan ) Nirvana was one of the few bands I really enjoyed listening to back then, because they sounded DIFFERENT from everything else I was listening to on the radio. I was sorry to hear about Curt Cobain's suicide, but at the same time I was a bit angry about it, as well. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone...

[Jamastiene]

11. Well, not to flame you, but

Kurt is spelled with a K. :P

I pretty much agree with most of what you said, but fame never went to his head, unless it went there to drive him nuts. He just never expected to get as famous as he did. Or at least that's what I think happened.

Your post is not exactly something I would think would get flamed. It seems pretty respectful and well thought out.

[TK421]

18. You see? I never even thought to spell his name properly!

that's how much of an influence he had on me!

Is it spelled with a C or a K? I just...didn't....know! But nevertheless, I liked their music...it just seems like such a waste considering what he did to end all of this.

We may still be hearing new material from him today, if he were still alive, that is...

It's a shame, really...

[Jamastiene]

21. Agreed. He would have further revolutionized the music world

had he lived.

His name is spelled like this: Kurt Cobain

It is truly a shame.

[DarkTirade]

14. The only problem there (other than the aforementioned spelling of his name :P )

is the amount of suspicion surrounding his suicide. There's a fairly good chance that he was murdered. Yes, he was having some problems adjusting to the fame... but whether that drove him to suicide or not we'll never know because the case was closed before it was ever really opened.

[TK421]

20. I suspect Courtney Love

I just can't think of anyone else at the moment, but has that ever entered your mind?

Maybe I'm paranoid

[Jamastiene]

23. Welcome to ignore.

Nobody disses Courtney Love without making it to my ignore list. Period.

[DarkTirade]

25. Actually a lot of people suspect her.

I don't know enough to try and claim that I suspect anyone myself, but TK421 isn't alone in his suspicion.

[TK421]

43. Are you serious about that? I didn't mean anything spiteful...

the whole situation just seemed kind of weird to me :( I usually don't point fingers, but something didn't quite seem right about the whole thing...and when that happens, alarms go off in me

[Jamastiene]

10. Other, putting on 2, count 'em 2, flame retardant suits...

Kurt Cobain was the Messiah of Punk Rock. There, I said it.

I stand behind that statement until y'all burn through BOTH of my flame retardant suits, then I'll stick by it until I turn to ashes.

Why?

Because, 70s punk rock was the greatest music ever and Kurt was a big fan of 70s and 80s punk. He took a basic core idea of minimalism and added a flair to it that updated and rejuvenated it for the 90s crowds. That man was a genius. He was still an original, who definitely had great influences.

So, those two options in the poll really do not leave room for an in between answer, which is what I think the best answer would be. His music was original, but his influences were definitely punk rock that had come before him. The real answer, IMHO, would be in between the derivative and the prophetic.

And, yes, I meant it when I said he was the Messiah of Punk Rock. I still remember the 80s mainstream music and the misogynistic attitudes of those metal bands. Kurt brought the sensibility of good punk rock and the love of women to a mainstream audience. He revitalized punk rock in a way that totally got my respect. RIP Kurt.

[ghostsofgiants]

12. That's still the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[DarkTirade]

15. I don't know if I'd call it punk... it was the beginning of the a new genre.

But other than that I pretty much agree with you. :)

[TK421]

19. But punk rock was well before Kurt Cobain made a name for himself

and it may have had an influence on him...but how does that make him the Messiah of something that was before "his" time? He wasn't that much older than I am, and punk rock peaked at maybe the late 70's ( possibly early 80's? ) He was influenced by it, amongst other things. He just didn't have to throw it away like he did.

[Jamastiene]

22. Well, a messiah is usually from another generation if you think

about it long enough. He would be the son of punk rock. Hence, the messiah comment.

Actually punk wasn't before his time, it was perfectly timed to his age. In the late 70's he would have been hitting his teens.
Yeah, that's what I said. He was influenced by it. And I hate that he's gone.

[aaronbees]

24. I hate it too Jamastiene

I think he would've made some amazing music had he lived on.

[opiate69]

27. Actually, I'd say the true genius behind Nirvana was Butch Vig...

[Fading Captain]

34. Except the band sounded even darker and more soulful

With Albini twisting the knobs.

[aaronbees]

17. They were absolutely genius

Influences? Pixies, Beatles and the blues. The B side to "Nevermind" was the greatest magical mish-mash of pop/punk/grunge ever. And to think they followed it up with "In Utero," a seminal album that swam closer to the dark, strange heart of Kurt and both scared and thrilled the fuck out of me. That took some guts.

I guess I'm not sure about your question -- to say they're purely derivative has pretty much been handled by the popular response to Nirvana. They were completely unique and that's why they were loved in the way they were, even if they had some obvious influences. Were they prophetic? Harder to say ... I think they were a great synthesis of what came before to be transfigured into a new animal. Damn, that sounds cheesy but I'll stick with it.

Sounds like a kick-ass fun research paper! :)

Honestly, I think Nirvana is way underrated.

[Jamastiene]

26. Good post. n/t

[ghostsofgiants]

35. Completely unique?

Ha!

[Guava Jelly]

28. The group that killed pussy love ballad metal

They should get an award or something.
Groups like warrant,white lion,poison and 300 other shitty every rose has it's thorns/Angel eyes etc bands
...the music of the late 80's early 90's was getting very lame and needed to be vanquished.
"Smells like teen spirit" May be the greatest song ever written..Not that it is any good but for the simple reason that it made mtv stop shoving shit like "If i close my eyes forever" down our throats.
:rant:

Thank you Nirvana!!

[DarkTirade]

30. GETTING lame?

The entire 80s was nothing but lame. I know, I was there. :)

[Guava Jelly]

31. I had fun with groups like Anthrax,SOD and even early Metallica

there was some good music.
It just got pretty cheesy towards the end

[DarkTirade]

33. Eh, some of the music was okay.

And the 80s DID produce the Back to the Future trilogy, so it wasn't all bad.
But I still shudder every time I look back on 80s fashions.

[SoxFan]

38. Not true at all

Sure, if you watched MTV and listened to mainstream radio, it did, but those of us who listened to college and alt radio know that there was a ton of great music in the 1980s, far more than in the 1970s.

REM
U2
The Alarm
English Beat
The Cure
X
Guadalcanal Diary
Lone Justice
Hoodoo Gurus
Jason & the Scorchers
Tommy Keene
Long Ryders
Midnight Oil
The Pogues
Red Rockers
Translator
Connells
Firetown
Echo and the Bunnymen
Neighborhoods
Magnolias
Husker Du
Scruffy the Cat
The Turbines
The Lyres
Outlets
The Three O'Clock
Concrete Blonde
Dream Syndicate
Let's Active
dBs
Winter Hours
Waterboys

[Carrieyazel]

46. Don't forget Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and others had a lot to do with killing hair metal

It wasn't just Nirvana. And don't forget the contributions of Jane's Addiction and others.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

53. Somewhere there are 40-something guys in acid wash denim jackets...

..teasing their balding hair and cursing Kurt for making them irrelevant

[Deja Q]

29. How about neurotic?

:)

[GirlinContempt]

32. All I know is I'd rather listen to Killing Joke

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bOL5cpwTkes Nirvana
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-Zlf_17hecY Killing Joke

[ghostsofgiants]

36. I'm still entirely convinced that aside from that riff, Nirvana's entire sound was lifted from "D-7"

By Wipers.

[GirlinContempt]

42. It's not even just the riff

The whole construction of the song, the breaks, the intensity, the slow

But, I hear ya

[Downtown Hound]

37. A band

with a few great songs, a number of good songs, and a few bad songs. There was really nothing prophetic or derivative about them. Although they did more than any other band to inspire the "grunge" look of the early 90's.

[leftofthedial]

39. all rock bands are derivative

Nirvana were good, overrated, slightly more derivative than unique, less influential than one might have thought given the absurd level of hype they received. Their greatest accomplishment was to drive Whitney Houston forever out of the rock charts.

[Taverner]

40. Janes Addiction opend up new doors. Nirvana kicked them in.

[blonndee]

41. Thanks for all the replies--these were good posts

and I very much enjoyed reading what you guys had to say.

:hi:

[Shakespeare]

44. The genius wasn't just Cobain's--Grohl's work was astonishing, too. n/t

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

54. and let's not short-change Novoselic (sp)

who's turned out to be one hell of an activist, post-Nirvana

[Carrieyazel]

45. Yes, they were a seminal band. But so was Alice in Chains and Soundgarden

I liked all three bands, but AIC was definitely the most underrated. They were great.

[Lethe]

52. yep AIC just sounded like nothing else

and it's a wonder how they even got on the radio at all with Dirt? Damn that album is pretty hardcore in terms of song themes....very dark!

[vi5]

58. Alice in Chains?! Hah!

They were a hair metal band until the tide turned to grunge and then they got all dark and brooding. I wasn't a Soundgarden fan either but at least they were doing what they were doing before it was popular to be a dark, brooding band from Seattle.

[idgiehkt]

47. I don't know if the music was prophetic

what came across in the lyrics wasn't enough info, it was more obvious in the videos and their attitudes that metal had ballooned into ridiculousness with Guns and Roses type bands that were an embarassment (their conduct, outlook) and Nirvana killed that genre in one fell swoop. It was kind of like a mini-men's movement, they and Pearl Jam said 'you know, men actually do like to do more then drink and drug and fuck.' I think that whole metal almighty male attitude needed to be killed. As far as influence I think Nickelback and the 47 clone bands still out there have killed whatever influence Nirvana had initially, it's souless grunge past it's prime without a point; it's like the undead yet it's unkillable. Nirvana and Pearl Jam showed male vulnerability and introspection in a time when men were nothing really but cartoons in pop music. I'm glad it happened, it kind of re-introduced male sensitivity from 80's new wave but kept it rough around the edges

[ghostsofgiants]

55. Please don't liken Nickelback to the undead...

I have a special fondness for the undead that I'd like to keep in tact.

[Rising Phoenix]

48. I know it sounds a bit extreme

but Nirvana saved my life....in more ways then one....I get sad of thinking all they could have accomplished had he lived...but I understand the pain he went through...and that it just wasn't meant to be. I hear he was an incredible visual artist....and would loved to have seen that side of him....

[Jamastiene]

50. You are not alone.

Great post. :thumbsup:

For me, between Nirvana and Hole, my life was saved LITERALLY on more than one occasion. I'll never forget the power that Kurt Cobain's music had to bring me back from the brink. Same with Hole, for me. That is why I have such a hard time when people diss either of them. It's like they do not understand a most basic human connection. Those people are missing something major, IMHO. The pain/punk connection has always been there as well for me. That's something no one can ever take away. More punk = less pain. Less punk = more pain. It's as simple as that.

[Throd]

49. Obligatory "Sonic Youth" reference inserted here

[Skittles]

51. overrated

WAY overrated

[HuffleClaw]

56. utter and complete crap

the sound of nails on a chalkboard is far more soothing

[vi5]

57. Absolutely derivative...I mean direct song rip offs.

Honestly, Smells Like Teen Spirit is little more than the exact chords/structure/riffs from Boston's "More Than A Feeling" played in a more scrappy, punky way. Come As You Are is the exact riff to Killing Joke's "Eighties" slowed down. Both with meaninglessly obtuse and vague lyrics sung over them. And Territorial Pissings is simply generic 80's hardcore song. How anyone could possibly have thought Nirvana was anything other than right place/right time genius marketing is beyond me. I mean maybe if you were 13 or 14 when you heard them or were strictly a mainstream rock fan. But anyone other than that I just don't see how.

I mean it wasn't just derivative it was literally other songs played at different speeds and with different production. And yes, I'm fully aware that most music, especially rock music is derivative. Which is fine. I'm a punk/hardcore/indie rock fan to the bone for 25 years at this point so it's not like I'm some prog rock goofball who just doesn't get it. I get it. It's fine. Just don't try to pass it off as something revolutionary or original which is what we get when it comes to Nirvana.