Any fans of Burton's BATMAN films out there?

[DerekG]

In the wake of the admittedly superior Batman Begins, geeks have declared open season on these two films, and yeah, they're incoherent and betray integral facets to the mythos. But they were also host to phenomenal performances (Kim Basinger notwithstanding), operatic scores (Descent Into Mystery, anyone?), and some of the most evocative images ever to grace a Hollywood blockbuster (the Batwing silhouette set against the moon).

C'mon, let's show Burton some love!

[Swede]

1. I liked them.

Keaton was a good choice to play the Batman.

[Archae]

2. Agreed...

Jack Nicholson OWNS the role of the Joker.

"This town needs an enema!" :D

[Orrex]

3. I've hated them since early 1989

Where to begin? I'll start with the first one because much that was wrong with it was wrong with the second one.

Casting: Horrible
Michael Keaton (a creditable actor but entirely out of place)
Kim Basinger (what you said)
Robert Wuhl ('nuff said)
Pat Hingle (a veteran character actor likewise out of place as Gordon)
Billy Dee Williams (WTF?)
two exceptions: Jack Nicholson was a fine choice, even if the role was poorly written, and Jack Palance did okay

Music: :puke:
Again, 'nuff said.

Cinematography: Dreadful!
Burton mysteriously gets major props for his allgedly groundbreaking vision of Gotham City, when in fact he gave us what looked like a rough mock-up of somebody's half-remembered description of a sketch they once saw in an old issue of Detective Comics

Special Effects: Awful, even at the time
The "Armor-Up" sequence with the Batmobile was beyond cheesy
The spotlights on the bell-tower and the Joker's fatal fall looked to have been hand-drawn in post-production after they'd realized that they hadn't filmed them.


And FWIW I thought the silhouetted Batwing was such an embarrassingly ham-fisted swipe at cleverness that I'd managed to forget about it altogether until you reminded me.


Incidentally, I saw Batman on Saturday of the opening weekend, with a girl named Robin. I really, really wanted to go to the lobby for popcorn, come back to the theater, and yell "Robin, where are you?" but I didn't have the stones.
:shrug:

[fujiyama]

16. Your dissing Elfman's score?

He had some great themes going in the first two films. Zimmer is a fine director, but the score in Batman Begins didn't feature the grand heroic, themes of the first two.

Not that it wasn't good or didn't fit the mood of Batman Begins...but Elfman's score was good.

[Orrex]

33. Too much of Elfman's stuff from around that time sounds too much alike, but

Actually I think that it fit the films pretty well (and I love his Spiderman score, not to mention The Simpsons).

I was, in fact, dissing Prince's awful awful awful music from the 1989 film.

[nytemare]

4. No one will top Nicholson's Joker.

I love Burton's movies, especially the actors/actresses he has in his unusual casts. Loved Sleepy Hollow, Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands. I really think Big Fish was his best film. Quirky, but feelgood. And I love the scores by Elfman.

[Orrex]

6. Wow--you're, like, totally nuts! (Just kidding!)

First of all, where did you get that picture of Gina Gershon in whiteface?

Second, I kind of can't stand Burton's films. IMO all of his directorial success descends entirely from his casting, when it works. If there were no Johnny Depp, there would be no Tim Burton.

And I thought that Ed Wood was his best film, by the way.

[DS1]

7. Heath Ledger is about to bury Jack's Joker

and I don't mean in a Brokeback sort of way

[Blue Belle]

23. I don't believe it...

Nicholson was born to play the Joker. Jack's comedic timing and the deliciousness of his evil - Heath Ledger is good, but there's no way he can compare.

[DerekG]

24. Ledger will be tackling another manifestation

Nicholson, to me, was the Joker of the O'Neil era: sadistic, but a bit of a dandy. Even when he's poisoning half of Gotham, you kinda like the guy--you certainly don't want to see him die, for the world would be robbed of one her premier eccentrics. Trust me, there won't be anything delicious about Ledger's villainy. He'll be insane. Not nutty. Not jaunty. Insane. He'd eviscerate a child for a good punchline. If Nolan does his job, we're going to be rooting for Batman every step of the way. Anything to get that psychopath back into Arkham.

[DS1]

32. believe it, see link

http://movies.ign.com/articles/822/822520p1.html

[Cathyclysmic]

37. There really should be nothing comedic about Joker.

In the original comics, he was an unrepentant psychopath, not the campy criminal prankster the way Nicholson and Cesar Romero played him. Ledger's going to own Joker.

[Mojambo]

10. Nicholson did a good job playing Nicholson in face paint.

He did not make a good Joker, IMO.

[edbermac]

5. I like them only because the 3rd and 4th were horrible.

Joel Schumacher almost destroyed the franchise.

[Mojambo]

11. There's no almost about it. He did destroy that franchise.

Nolan resurrected it.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

14. What you didn't like the bat-nipples? nt

[DS1]

8. Only the first one, the second one with DeVito as Pengiun was just stupid

not even Walken in maximum Walken mode could save it

[Mojambo]

9. Not a fan of Burton in general

And the Batman films are no exception.

I did like the pseudo-gothic set design somewhat.

[Downtown Hound]

12. I thought they were decent but ultimately very flawed

I remember seeing the first one in theater when I was about 12, and the picture was so dark that you sometimes could barely see what was going on. I found out later that they actually brightened the picture for the video release because other people had this problem.

Jack Nicholson's performance was outstanding, and Keaton made a decent Batman. And the guy who played Alfred the Butler was outstanding (forget his name). The cinematography was good but too dark like I said before. The story alternated between moments of greatness and moments of stupidity. But, I don't think Batman Begins would ever have been made if it weren't for these movies. Burton had the boldness and vision to bring Batman back to its roots after having been given the camp treatment by the 60's TV show. It was that goofy image of Batman that had been ingrained in the public's mind for years. I can still remember people being very surprised that the movie wasn't anything like the TV show, because that was all they knew of Batman. They had never read the comics.

So I give credit to Burton for what must have been a very daunting task, and even if he didn't hit a home run, he didn't screw it up either. And his vision of Batman and Gotham City definitely laid the groundwork for the new Batman films coming out now.

[Orrex]

13. Frank Miller did all the heavy lifting years before Burton's film was greenlighted

You're probably correct to say that Nolan's film wouldn't have been made if not for Burton's work, but Burton's work would never have been funded if not for Miller's work.

Burton had the boldness and vision to bring Batman back to its roots after having been given the camp treatment by the 60's TV show.

That's an amazing statement IMO, because I'm hard-pressed to think of a film that was more campy than Burton's Batman!

[DerekG]

19. But then, Batman '89 made possible the animated series

I think those 22 minute gems were more lustrous than anything Miller or Burton gave us, so it was all for the good.

[Downtown Hound]

20. I don't know if it's AMAZING

Whether you like Burton's film or not, it took itself seriously. The 60's Batman didn't, it was tongue in cheek. That was what I meant by Burton moving the series away from campiness. I think you may be confusing camp with cheesy. Camp generally means that something is trying to be funny, whereas I don't think Burton's Batman was. Yes, we were supposed to laugh at Nicholson's Joker and a few other parts, but the movie had a very dark undertone that wasn't very campy at all.

The comic books portrayed Batman as The Dark Knight. The 60's TV series portrayed him as a stuffy goofball. Whether it was Burton or somebody else that decided to move away from the 60's image, which was quite strong in the public's mind at the time, the point is they did. Whether or not Burton can take full credit for that, I don't know and don't really care.

[Orrex]

38. A note on campiness

Any time someone in the Lounge mentions The Silence of the Lambs, two things are guaranteed to happen (except maybe this time):

1. Someone gushes about the awful film Manhunter, specifically how much better he or she believes that Cox protrayed Lecter.

2. Someone derides The Silence of the Lambs for its campiness.

By that latter metric, I think I'm on safe ground. Campiness can be self-conscious but need not be. In fact, some might argue that unconscious campiness is even more campy for that reason.

Burton's Batman will always be campy to me, in a way that even Invaders from Mars was not.

YMMV, of course.

[NewJeffCT]

34. how about the Batman movie with Adam West & Burt Ward

for something with more campiness?

[Orrex]

39. West's incarnation was closer to the obsessed crimefighter than was Keaton's

I don't fault Keaton for that, because it was a problem in the writing. But the Burton incarnation of Batman was simply a gadget-fetishist who liked to mingle with unstable women and to fight crime when the mood struck him. He was Bruce Wayne who occasionally dressed up as Batman

West's Batman was a caricature, to be sure, but he was a tireless warrior not distracted by fancy parties or pretty faces. He was Batman who occasionally dressed up as Bruce Wayne.

Warning: The preceding was written with a consciously super-serious vibe, hyperbolic perhaps but not IMO inaccurate!

[fujiyama]

15. I love the first Batman movie

It's eerie in its own light. Nicholson was a riot and Keaton wasn't bad as Batman.

And Elfman's score kicks ass. In fact, the motifs used in the original two Batman movies, is the only redeemable quality about the later junk made by Joel Schumaker.

[Broken_Hero]

17. I liked the first Batman(burton)

but Batman Returns was...well, not all that great. The first installment of Burtons was good, and I only have a few gripes, the biggest one being: Killing of Joker, and a few minor ones that don't bare much weigh, aka Wuhl being in the flick(just didn't like his character at all)....



You can't kill off the Heroes main/central nemesis in the first film, and I was pissed when they killed him off(as far as villians go, I have the Joker in my top three fave villians)....

Nicholson I believe did an above average Joker, not super duper, but not crappy...he did good. I can't wait to see how Ledger does the role in the upcoming The Dark Knight flick coming out next year....

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. My dear petersond!

Excuse the thread-jacking...

Haven't seen you in ages!

Hope all is well in your world, sweetie... :hug:

[Broken_Hero]

21. Things are going...

Okay, not great...just a lot of off DU crap I'm dealing with...its been physically/and financially taxing...but hopefully, the situation will be over in the next couple of weeks...

My wife and I, are working on her cousins house down in Oklahoma, and trying to fix it up, to sell off...and in doing so, my wife and I have taken a gamble financially to help fix the house, and we keep hitting road bump, after road bump with the house..it seems the m inute we fix something, we discover some new thing, that needs to be fixed, which in turn...cost bucko bucks to fix up! My wife and I have been doing most of the fixing up too, so its rather taxing....seems like we have no down time, and I have been feeling absolutely exhausted, that I find it hard at times, to fulfill my DU duties...its been rough, but hopefully...its over soon.

[bridgit]

22. "Burton's Batman Franchise" got too Burton'y all dark & little other; too many don't care for...

Schumaker as a filmmaker (which i disagree with as a practical matter), but at least he brought some fresh visuals...the new Batman Begins Franchise is superior to Burton's


you wanna show Buton some "love"...Sleepy Hollow: http://www.timburtoncollective.com/sleepy.html Willy Wonka: http://chocolatefactorymovie.warnerbros.com

[Mythsaje]

25. Jack was the perfect Joker....

The first movie was great...The 2nd one hit the skids and it kept skidding...

[DarkTirade]

26. My only complaint with the Burton versions is that there was too much of him in them, rather than

focusing on Batman. Don't get me wrong, I like Burton's style... it's just that the movie should be about Batman, not Burton. When you're doing your own thing (I.E., Nightmare Before Christmas, ect.) it's okay to make it mostly your style... because that's your thing. But Batman is an icon that is a huge part of pop culture, so you have to balance your style with that of the character and stories that came before. The first one was about 1/4 Burton, 1/2 Batman and 1/4 80s movie. The second one was a lot more timeless, that one was a good 3/4 Batman and 1/4 Burton.

Other than that they were good though. :) Much better than Schumacher's crapfest that followed. Personally, I thought Val Kilmer did a perfectly good job... with the crap he was given. He was a good Bruce Wayne, and a decent Batman.

But for me, Kevin Conroy will always be Batman, and Mark Hamill will always be The Joker. :) And for the love of all that's good and unholy in this world, I never want to see a dumb brutish stupid Bane, or a huge, muscular Mr. Freeze ever EVER again.

[lildreamer316]

27. Keaton was genius.

I just love him in the part.

[Frank Cannon]

28. Michael Keaton was the best thing about the Burton Batfilms

Pretty much everything else blew, though those movies were masterpieces compared to the Joel Schumacher shite that followed.

I didn't particularly care for Jack Nicholson's take on the Joker. It just seemed like a slightly more malevolent (and just as campy) version of Cesar Romero's Joker from the TV series.

As a Batman fan since toddlerhood, I can say that Begins was the Batman movie I'd waited my whole life for.

[Orsino]

29. Loved the first one...

...but having seen it again recently, I'm no longer that impressed by Nicholson's performance. Great look, but he seems so...awkward in the role.

A Tim Burton movie is going to be darkly gorgeous, and the second Batman was no exception. The characters weren't as engaging, but I could enjoy it with the sound off.

[Bassic]

30. Yes, they fucking rocked.

Worst mistake they ever did was chose Joe Shumaker (I don't know how to spell it) to do the nex two.

[Bassic]

31. Burton was responsible for the best manifestation

of the Batmobile ever. :thumbsup:

[NewJeffCT]

35. I liked that one when it came out in 1989, however

I don't think the movie has aged all that well.

[kay1864]

36. Michelle Pfeiffer saved the second movie

and almost made up for Danny DeVito's silly Penguin.

[Akoto]

40. Yes, Returns is my favorite of the Batman movies.

It had that great, dark atmosphere and interesting characters. The chemistry was great between Keaton and Pfeiffer (who, by the way, really went all out in portraying a really twisted Catwoman). It managed to be adult without taking itself too seriously in some respects.

[Richard Steele]

41. The first one. It was flawed, but it got the mileu right.

It was all downhill after that.

[truebrit71]

42. No. They were f**king awful.

The only thing that made the first one bearable was Micheal Keaton and Jack Nicholson...