My Husband, Life long Dem, Just Announced he is thinking of Voting

[QueenOfCalifornia]

Libertarian - Help Talk Me Down!:crazy:

He came down the stairs and said he is finding that he agrees with the Libertarians "more and more":shrug:

I tried all the obvious arguments but he had some good ones too. Mainly, We are being killed by taxes --- I can't even begin to argue against this -- It doesn't help that he is a constitutional expert. He is not an easy person to argue with but I did have him on the ropes for a while...

If he flips me to being a Libertarian I will let you know.... :freak:

Make it stop.... (I locked up all the pistols):yoiks:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. Tell him to build his own private toll road.

In the meantime, he should stay off the government asphalt.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

3. I tried something like that

I put it like this.. "Who pays for the roads and all the rest of the infrastructure?"

He told me that until 1913 there was no federal income tax and that the infrastructure was paid for by tariff's and that if we repealed NAFTA and went back to the tariff system, that would pay for our roads and other infrastructure.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

18. Who pays the tariff?

It sounds promising at first; but then you have to consider that those who are tariffed will pay for it by raising their prices. So who really pays the tariff? You and me.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

19. The countries that

import goods to America pay the tariff - If they raise their prices, it forces Americans to produce their own goods and stimulates the economy -

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. But if those countries choose to embargo...

then where will we find revenue to maintain the infrastructure?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

24. I guess I'll ask him since

I don't know --

Knowing him, he will have a good answer...

I'll write this one down.

Thanks

[liberaldemocrat7]

46. Tell him to hire his own police, firemen and roadmen.

Tell him to hire his own police, firemen and roadmen.

Tell him to put his own outhouse in the back yard. Have him school the children at home.

Tell him to save a lot of money for medical catastrophies and disabilty and retirement and for leaving you money when he dies.

Tell him to swear off collecting social security, medicare.


Libertarian, when local, state and federal government puts you on third base, you call yourself a Libertarian and attempt to steal home.

and have him move to Gilligan's Island LOL. I couldn't resist. LOLOL

[ThoughtCriminal]

20. That's great - if you want a 1913 Infrastructure

I like my roads, you know, PAVED.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

21. That is an excellent argument

I was trying to think of ways to stun him into silence.... I will use that on him tomorrow if he keeps this up.

[Downtown Hound]

22. Yeah, you can always mention that roads didn't cost all that much

to build back then. It was pretty much cut trees and branches down and you have nice road. And even then, much of this country's infrastructure was built by cheap immigrant and/or convict labor.

[struggle4progress]

33. He doesn't know his legal history: the US first experimented with income tax

during the Civil War; income tax was declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS in the gay 90s; and the rectifying constitutional amendment dates from 1913.

[MaryBear]

50. the amendment was not rartified.

but ask him:

how is he going to get us from here to there?

and how manage all the foreseen and unforseen complications of such a change?

[ikojo]

35. There wasn't much of an infrastructure in 1913

The coast to coast highway system was created following WW II, and it was paid for via taxes. If Libertarians had their way small rural communities would not receive mail because it would not be profitable for the private mail industry to deliver mail on a daily basis to those communities.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

40. Yeah, but that was 1913.

Does he want to go back to 1913 in terms of, oh, life?

[rockymountaindem]

48. A tariff is still a tax

Besides, things change. If he wants to get in a time machine back to 1913, that's his prerogative. Here in the 21st century, a country deriving its income solely from tariffs would be a non-competitive pariah state.

[Mojambo]

2. Does he have a food and water test kit?

You guys should probably start cooking your meals a little earlier, because in his Libertarian world, you're going to have to test all your food and water before you eat it.

There will be nothing to ensure that corporations can't poison the fuck out of you.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

5. I used that one too

I said "Who is going to replace the FDA?" he said that he is going to be a moderate and support keeping some govt. agencies. I asked "How will we fund them" He said that he thinks that property tax will take care of this...

I suck at this sort of thing so I just asked him to tell me, with dollar amounts - how it would work.

[Downtown Hound]

26. Property taxes?

I have never heard a Libertarian be in support of any kind of tax, and property taxes are usually second only to income taxes in terms of pure evil as far as they're concerned. I actually flirted with Libertarianism myself a number of years ago, until I realized that as a philosophy, it is the epitome of naivety. Libertarians hate government, but actually think that corporations can be trusted to do what's right if they were left alone. Oh yeah, then they spout some bullshit about how the market will police itself and the bad corporations will be driven out of business. Competition, competition, competition. That's what they always stress will be the saving grace of capitalism. Have they never heard of monopolies? Look at Microsoft. Microsoft rose to power by having so much capital at their disposal that they sued the competition out of business. It didn't matter that their lawsuits were bullshit. They would overwhelm their opponents with legal fees and drive them out of business. If unrestrained Capitalism had its way, you would have a dictatorship that rivaled the worst in human history. Maybe even surpass it.

Here's something you can use. Japan, South Korea, and Europe all have WAY faster internet than the United States does. Many Americans do not know this, but it's true. Why is this? Because the governments there built the infrastructure to accommodate it. They did it because they felt it was in the public's interest. And yet here in the U.S., the nation that invented the freakin' internet, we let the corporations do it. And we are currently lagging far behind the rest of the developed world. In my hometown, all the telecommunications companies got huge tax breaks to lay down fiber optic wiring a few years back. Well, they laid it, but guess what? They're not using it. Instead they're milking the public dry on the old phone cables. And why not? It's profitable. And that's all that matters. Only a corporation would do something so stupid.

Also tell him to do a little research on how the United States became such a powerhouse in science and technology. Newsflash, it wasn't the corporations. In the 50's the government became very worried about the Soviet Union, and realized that the only way we could defeat them would be to have better scientists. So they invested heavily into making that happen. Contrary to Libertarian propaganda, the government has done many things right in its time. It's when they listen to the corporations (a la Iraq) that they fuck up.

Oh, and one more thing you can try; tell him to watch the movie The Corporation. One of the best movies ever on why our economic system is so fundamentally flawed.

[Pushed To The Left]

4. The current Republican Party is actually very anti-Libertarian: Patriot Act, right-wing Supreme

Court nominees, warrantless wiretapping, etc. One of the most libertarian things somebody can do is to try to defeat the hardcore right-wing Republican Party. Democrats are still in the best position to do this. Let him know that voting Democratic is still the best way to keep the authoritarian policies of the right wing from happening!

[Mojambo]

7. This is probably the most effective advice to try and drag him back.

Good call, PTTF.

[AlCzervik]

6. taxes pay for things like the fire department, police and education, tell him if

a libertarian wins (republicans that like pot) you all better have access to your own water and high pressure hoses cause in a libertarian's worlds (republicans that like pot and love free trade) there will cease to be a fire department or it will be privatized so if your house burns down hopefully your check book wil be on your pocket when the trucks to pull up.

[FloridaJudy]

29. "Republicans that like pot"!

BWAhahahahaha! Snort. :spray: :rofl:

Good one!

[struggle4progress]

34. "Great! We can use Blackwater to replace the police!"

[prolesunited]

8. I hate Libertarians

the party of I've got mine, fuck the rest of you.

The problem is not necessarily the tax burden, but the fact that it's not being used to benefit the people. How many billions have been spent on this useless war? But we don't have enough for health care and education and housing? I want some return on my investment, not more bombs.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

9. All of this is what I think of

after the fact-

I did say something to the effect of "So, you don't want to help those who need it?" He said that of course he does but he doesn't want to lose our home because of the income tax and property tax and state tax and sales tax... (Note - we are really ham strung financially and when you look and the percent that the govt. gets -- it does make you wince, cringe and recoil in horror.)

he totally agrees that the govt. spends money like idiots - he hates how it is so ineffective - He has never sounded like this before but I really think the way we are being fucked by this administration is making him think that he has to protect his family first - keep a roof over our heads and food on the table and THEN share. He is not the kind of person who is not caring -

He has been against this war from day one.


When he says stuff like "I can't help anyone if I end up on the street" I have no argument.

[Breeze54]

10. Ask him why he wants to make his grand kids lives more difficult.

And then threaten divorce! :P

[QueenOfCalifornia]

11. My first words

out of my mouth were:

"So, you want a divorce or what?"

[Breeze54]

12. And what was his reaction or was there one?

He probably thought you were kidding.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

14. He is an attorney

he just ignored me and proceeded making his point.

I just rolled my eyes and tried to keep watching the Science Channel...

[Mz Pip]

13. They won't win

so he'll just end up throwing his vote away. Maybe he doens't care (that's kind of Libertarian in its own way)

But I can see his point. When the government is as broken as ours seems to be, the thought of less government sounds pretty good. But they won't win.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

16. He knows they wont win

he wants to vote for a "principal" and "Idea" because he wants change and he doesn't see it coming from this Democratic party - he is freaked out that impeachment has not been pushed by this Congress. He has lost his love for what he sees as a party that is kissing th ass of the Republicans.

[Kali]

49. he should write that down and send it to all the Dems in your area.

He shouldn't throw a vote away, but he sure as hell ought to threaten the spinless a-holes with it. I know EXACTLY how he feels.

[Jamastiene]

15. Ask him why he hates America.

Go into full fledged Republican mantra mode to remind him who he is dealing with. Every pro Libertarian thing he says, say some Republican mantra like "Why do you hate America?" or something like that. Keep doing it until he relents and votes Dem again. If it works for them, maybe it can work for us.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

17. He's an attorney

Not an idiot.

He would laugh at me if I asked him why he hates America.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Tell him that there are many countries where Libertarian ideals are in place:

El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Congo, Haiti, and any other Third World country where the rich buy everything they need, from education to health care to bodyguards, and the poor live in tin shacks, eat mostly starches, and own one item of clothing each. Not surprisingly, you can hire servants really cheaply there, too. :sarcasm:

[ashling]

27. Step #1: STAY CALM !

He is probably just pulling your leg. If this is the case, there is no reason to get hysterical.

In the event that you come to the conclusion that he is not, in fact, pulling your leg, proceed to the next step

Step #2: HYPERVENTILATE! This is cause for serious concern.

Step #3: Determine if he is he is just delusional or if he has really gone over to the dark side.

If he is merely delusional, have him committed right away.

If he has reallly gone over to the dark side, I am afraid there is little if any hope for him.

In that case you must have him put down immediately.

[bridgit]

28. pft, that's nothing, my husband used to canvas for the libertarians when they first...

started out down in SoCal in the early 70's, but split with them and their idiot positions regarding a host of issues :thumbsup:

tell him to just vote republican and be happy with his (and possibly your) destruction of the civilized world if he has the guts :rofl:

[struggle4progress]

30. "If we have no laws, nobody will need lawyers, dear"

[bridgit]

31. no shit, plus you have to patch your own pot holes on the street where you live...

even if others contribute to their existence x(

[TZ]

32. Suggest that you buy all your medicine from China....

where there is little oversight on quality or safety. See how he likes that since libertarians aren't big on regulations.
Fake chemo drugs anyone?

[Mythsaje]

36. My wife IS a Libertarian, more or less...

And a social darwinist. :shrug: It's annoying sometimes. Thankfully, I'm the one with the real interest in politics. I can usually talk her down from some of the more extreme notions, and she's definitely voting Democratic in the next election--as she did in the last one--but sometimes I :banghead:

She's only half-Libertarian...she supports universal healthcare... she just has issues with what she sees as America's tendency to micro-manage our lives. She lived in Germany for eight years and came back and couldn't believe how bad it had gotten here with the mandatory seatbelts, insurance, smoking bans, etc...

[WritingIsMyReligion]

41. I thought Social Darwinists more or less kicked the can with TR.

And in the years that followed. That's like a hold-out from the Gilded Age, man. Who knew?

:shrug:

[Naturyl]

47. How I wish that were true...

But Social Darwinists are still with us, hiding under every rock and lurking in every dark corner. Recently they have been coming out in droves, spamming every piece of political content on the Internet with ads for Ron Paul. The "libertarian" movement in America is full of them, all convinced that the mentality of a pack of hyenas fighting over a scrap of food is humankind's highest moral standard.

[Orsino]

37. You can tell him...

...that Congress loves anti-tax "rebels" like him. Any excuse to cut corporate taxes is a good one, as far as the Hill is concerned.

[GOPisEvil]

38. Libertarians should be forced to live in their own utopia.

Got a pothole in the street in front of your house? Fix it yourself. If we had a Libertarian existence taken to the extreme, we'd have people charging a toll to walk on the sidewalk in front of their house. THere would still be a lot of taxes and fees, just the entity being paid would change.

[ileus]

39. Can't reallly blame him @56% average tax rate...

we're being punished enough already tax wise.

[kath]

44. 56% average tax rate?? For whom?

Cite, please.

[OzarkDem]

42. Dems in Congress are losing US voters

because they are so weak, unwilling to speak out and give voters no alternative.

When they should be growing stronger, they are doing the opposite.

Fuck Emmanuel, Hoyer and the rest of the DLC crud, along with the Dems too stupid to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

[Wapsie B]

51. Yes they are.

For all those reasons.

[baldguy]

43. Libertarians are children.

I have no patience for people who whine about taxes. the old cliché is true: Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society. You should budget for them just like you budget for anything else.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

45. You guys are great!

I am really thankful fior all your suggestions...