ARRGH, Some Idiot Is Defending The Attack On Frost.

[lligrd]

Who in the heck are these people? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=61388&mesg_id=61481

[SeattleGirl]

1. Freeper.

Only 19 posts.

He'll probably be TS'd soon.

[lligrd]

2. Hah, Wants Me to Send Him Some Money

cause he is poorer than that family. What a surprise!

[Blue Diadem]

46. and he makes $75,000-$100,000 according to his my space page

There's a link down thread to his page.

Amazing that he thinks he's somehow poorer than that family.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

3. 33 Posts now

and still not TSd!

[lligrd]

11. They Are Asking For Volunteers

to moderate. I guess they really need them.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

25. I just posted

and I was #119.

[hfojvt]

4. the few and the proud

I have mixed feelings about it myself. That family sure seems to take alot of freebies. Makes over 3 times my income but still cannot afford health insurance. Hmmm. Maybe they could if they didn't have 4 frigging kids!!! How much were these medical bills? Maybe this family should have borrowed from their home equity before they asked the rest of society to pay for their expenses?

From 1991 until 1998 I had my own business - a bookstore. From Feb 1993 until Jul 1998 worked another job to support it. Never made more than $12,000 a year and probably still paid more federal income taxes than this family has in the last 3 years. Never got so much as a nickel of government help. AFAIK, there was none available, since it is all for kids and their mothers. Was even denied unemployment because I admitted that I could not take a first shift job. Even though I was not required to look for work under the terms of the lay-off, the fact that I could not take a 1st shift job (because of my business) meant no unemployment for me. A co-worker who was in jail, had no such problem. I applied for food stamps in 1995, was denied because I had bought some land in 1987 for $4500 and still owned it. It's fine to have an asset restriction, but galling because a $4500 car would have been exempt.

Anyway, why shouldn't anybody in this country, who a) is not as well off as this family in either income or assets, and b) is either not eligible or not getting any government assistance - why shouldn't they resent government assistance going to people who are better off than them? I have health insurance, yes. Through my employer, but I also pay $2700 a year for it, out of my income of $13,000. The government should be helping people like me before it helps people who make 3 times what I do.

[NMDemDist2]

5. they support six people on three times your income

doesn't that make them half as well off as you?

[hfojvt]

7. only if costs are linear

I could house 3 people in the house (3 bedrooms, two baths) where I live and because of the way utility bills always include a minimum, my utility bills would not triple either. Two or three can live almost as cheap as one. Health insurance for one is $444.34 per month. For six, it is $1057.60 per month.

Four of those people were optional. It's fine if you wanna have four kids, but don't keep popping out babies and then expect other people to support them. My parents had five, and my four siblings all have only two children, so I feel it must be possible to stop at two.

[lligrd]

12. Popping Out Children??

Rather disgusting term for bringing forth the next generation. Can't help wondering if you were one of the first two that popped or the last two that shouldn't have.

I think you are missing a whole lot of charges that very extra person incurs as well.

[hfojvt]

14. Does the next generation really need to be twice as numerous.

If every couple produces four kids then America will have 600 million people by the time I am seventy. "A whole lot of charges that every extra person incurs?" All the more reason to stop at two.

I merely stated the obvious, that costs are not linear.

T1 = C
T1 + T2 < 2C because of the things I mentioned, housing and utilities. Naturally Thing2 needs as much food and clothing and towels (except I already have about ten towels) and toothbrushes. Sure, kids require a bit more because of things like diapers, school supplies, diptheria shots and outgrowing their shoes every two months and the fact that they store extra food in a hollow leg, but the fact that they do not cost an extra $300 a month for another house, phone, electric, gas, water, and trash bill (um, did I say $300, better make that $400 even for me and $750 if you live in Baltimore) certainly well-covers those extra expenses.

[lligrd]

15. Oh, I Get Your Point

Just not your terms. I am a strong advocate of population control but I also believe in taking care of the next generation and ensuring that they do have a future. Being born is not the fault of those that "popped" and the poppees deserve health care.

[hfojvt]

17. it is only when they are flying out of the womb at an alarming rate

that 'pop' becomes the verb of choice. One does not 'pop' out one or two babies, but four?

I am not sure about the word 'deserve', but I think society is better served when children are cared for and kept healthy. Still, if their are no costs to having children and reduced costs for raising children, isn't that gonna take away some incentive for controlling their number? An economist would say those costs are externalized from the couple and onto society as a whole. Without altruism or compassion or vision, there is less incentive to reduce costs that are externalized.

[lligrd]

18. Sorry, Can't Go There

Being born is not the choice of the born and everyone deserves health care. If it makes you feel better, I'll include you in that.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

26. 4 people

were optional?


So, like Communist China, you want to punish people who have more than their allotment of children. As far as I know it is still a couples choice to have more than 2 children. If one of your siblings has more children than they have now, will you pretend that little person is not part of your family?

[hfojvt]

29. is it punishment if I insist that I should not have to pay for each additional child?

Have all the children you want, just don't come crying to me that you are poor because you had more children than you can afford.

[Kali]

30. You seem to assume that someone with "too many" offspring

started off poor. Maybe they were doing fine when the decisions were made and then circumstances changed after. How do you reconcile that? Stuff 'em back in if you lose your job? :wtf:

[hfojvt]

32. Once upon a time I had a job. It paid $11.30 an hour.

I went looking for a house. The realtor told me I could afford a $70,000 house. But I asked myself "What happens if I lose my job?" I had had 20 different jobs in the past without ever losing one, but you never know. So I only looked at houses less than $50,000 and got the best one that I could afford. Four months after I bought it, I lost my job.

What happens if you lose your job, is that you fall. You might first ask your family to help. Then ask your friends to help. You go with your back-up plan. Way, way down at the bottom, just before you hit the ground, there is a safety net (unless you are male and over 17). The trouble arises, for me, when I see a safety net way above me, to catch people before they have even fallen to my level. Then I look down and also notice - I DON'T HAVE A FU$%ING SAFETY NET!! Yet I am expected to help pay for one that is way above me, IMO. It seems like a raw deal when society is taking from me, in order to give to people better off than me.

[Kali]

35. I think you have a very basic math problem.

and while I understand the envy you feel over a family you perceive to have more than you, "getting" to have insurance when you don't, you might want to think about the fact that they are actually a greater number of people dividing those massive excess resources than the one single male you are feeling so sorry for.

[hfojvt]

41. a greater number of people

that were either deliberately, or thoughtlessly, created.

I don't really feel that sorry for myself. Not like I might have in the 1990s when I was working all those hours for so much less pay and benefits. I just don't think I should have to pay for people who are better off than me, or for those who created their own poverty in spite of their sufficient income.

I understand though. Children, even of richer families, deserve sympathy (and hand-outs). Grown men, even those in poverty, do not. Is that what I am hearing?

Envy? Sheesh, I feel like I am arguing with Republicans about the Bush tax cuts for the rich.

[Kali]

42. actually you sound just like a republicon

No empathy for others, why should I help the born?, I worked for what I got why should bums get a hand-out? Black and white view of those with your view of too many kids, no possibility that circumstances can change and SHIT can happen to anybody etc etc etc

damn welfare queens, breeding like flies so they can collect all them foodstamps.

[hfojvt]

44. I have no empathy for others?

Pardonne, but this "the one single male you are feeling so sorry for." did not sound like alot of empathy to me.

It's not about "my view of the proper number of kids" but I think people should support the ones they choose to have, and not ask strangers, who are making much less income and have much less in assets, to chip in for their support.

I did not say anything about 'not helping the born' but I wonder why I should be expected to help families with 3 times my income and five times my assets, just because THEY created a situation where their assets and income were insufficient.

You have done just what the FReepers did. I used myself as an example. So DU attacked the messenger. "I am really richer than them. I am probably lying. I am envious and selfish. I am probably a troll."

My original point was kinda simple. There are 24,857,000 families with income less than $35,000 a year. I am one of them. I have always been one of them. Many of us, such as myself, pay a fair amount for our health insurance. After we have scrimped in order to take care of ourself, should we be happy to see those with higher incomes claim they can't and get a very expensive freebie? I hope, at least, that they were paying premiums into SCHIP and did not just suddenly sign up after their accident.

Is this the future I can expect with Clintonomics? Programs that help "the middle class" - those with two or three times my income, and are expected to maybe trickle down to the poor? (I guess I need to update my journal about Hillary's retirement accounts.)

[Kali]

45. I think my biggest problem with your attitude is that old "personal responsibility"

BS. Sure some people make bad decisions and maybe deserve some sort of karmic punishment for that, but the rest (probably the most) are victims of circumstance BEYOND THEIR CONTROL.

Personally I would much rather help pay for "fraudulent" health insurance than a lot of other things we, as taxpayers are asked to help with. Somebody making more money than me but caring for 4 or 5 other individuals doesn't make me envious. I can grasp the fact that that income is being used to care for more than one person, and I can see well beyond the over-simplified rationalization that they should have know better when they "chose" to have so many kids.

I have more kids than I planned to have. I took in my fucked-up sister's kid. We qualify for all sorts of benefits, but I have only accepted emergency medical help a couple of times, so you can use me as an example to help balance that imaginary greed of poor over-populated families you seem to have.

Life sometimes doesn't go the way you plan. Does that mean you should not have kids because "something" bad might happen to you financially down the road? Maybe we should just kill ourselves now, because you never know - something bad might happen in the future and we might need some kind of help. Help that some other person doesn't qualify for. OH MY GOD! Stop living now!
:sarcasm:

[FunkyLeprechaun]

6. How much do you pay for health insurance?

The Frosts' business has no employees and they can't afford health insurance. There are plenty of decent hard-working people who cannot afford their own health insurance and if they get into an accident, that will bankrupt them.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

[hfojvt]

8. $2,666.04 not including what I pay for dental

Indeed, for seven years, much of which I was working 70 hours a week, seven days a week, I had no health insurance, and even after that, as recent as three years ago.

Imagine what they could afford if they only had two kids.

There are plenty of decent, hard working people frittering away alot of money on trifles too. Before I believe that they "cannot afford" it, I wanna see their budget.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

10. Is that for a month or for a year?

The Frosts were looking into getting their own health insurance but it would cost them 1,200 a month (which would be $14,400 a year for them).

Also, this question is for everyone, were his parents in the accident as well?

They may have been injured as well and... seeing that they had no health insurance, they probably had to pay for their own bills. It was very lucky that Graeme and his sister were covered by SCHIP.

[hfojvt]

13. it would be kinda tough to pay that each month

on an annual salary of $13,000.

[Tyler Durden]

24. You make minimum wage, correct?

Well, if you worked 261 days a year, 8 hours a day, you'd make $12,006.00

I have my doubts here. I won't say "Fibber, fibber" but I have my doubts.

[lligrd]

9. Hard To Compare Costs, Really Depends A Lot On

Where You live. In California, their income would be very low and their assets extremely moderate. One reason assets (to a point) are usually excluded is because they are not easily liquidated. Say you have a house worth 400,000 in California. If you sell it, which would take a while and possibly require other major changes (e.g., daycare, schools) you still have to find another place to live. For that you need a good credit rating and at least 2k a month out here for a family of 4. Your equity would be eaten up in no time flat.

I really hate it when people say others shouldn't get something just because they aren't getting it. But, it is the reason that Single Payer or government run health care is the only answer. Health care really is a right. Especially since they have taken the right to treat ones self with drugs away. And, it is in the interest of any society to ensure that all of its citizens are in good health so that they don't sicken the entire population.

[hfojvt]

16. I was making the same point to the marine, really,

when my internet explorer crashed. Still, depending on the medical costs. If they were, say, $40,000, why couldn't that family get a home equity loan or refinance with cash-out and pay their medical bills that way? Shouldn't a family with $400,000 in assets do that before they rely on public assistance? Assistance which many people, such as say, myself, do not get in spite of having much less in assets.

As far as California goes. According to my 2001 SAUS, the poverty rate in California was 13.8%, compared to 11.8% nationally. And the Federal poverty level does not make allowances for California's higher costs and higher incomes. So I am guessing that California also has many people below 200% of the federal poverty level. Even in California, that familiy's income and assets do not qualify for "very low" or "extremely moderate".

It's not about me and them, but I make that a Kantian absolute that people making $3X should not get public subsidies that people making $X do not get.

I argued the same thing with the Bush tax cuts. Bill Gates should not get a $20,000,000 tax cut because a) he doesn't need it, and b) other, needier, people are not getting diddley-squat.

[lligrd]

19. We Can Agree On Some Things

And I would like (and think the country as a whole would as well) things to be more equitable to everyone. I would advocate "free" health care and school lunches for all but I would not give tax deductions for having children or being married. I would however grant tax deductions for those living in a household (related or not).

[Missy Vixen]

22. So it's better that the family mires themselves in debt they'll never be able to repay

than to get their children the health care they needed from SCHIP?

By the way, none of us actually know what the assets of the Frost family are. We're taking the word of the right-wing, and they're so honest, aren't they?

The argument about the four kids? Frankly, it's none of my business how many kids they chose to have. Why is it yours? Furthermore, perhaps you might want to take a look at how much the hospital stays, schooling and continuing physical therapy costs for the Frost children. I submit that the supposed proceeds from their house and other assets would be gone in less than a year, and they'd be living in a cardboard box. I guess that's okay, though. They're not getting something you didn't get. :sarcasm:

What is happening to that family right now is absolutely vile. Anyone who'd support the high-tech smearing of a twelve-year-old has far deeper problems than I can address here.

Julie

[hfojvt]

31. What is debt they will never be able to repay?

My little brother recently bought a house. He's 42 with a 30 year mortgage. He's gonna be in debt until he is 72, isn't he?

It isn't any of my business how many kids they have, until they come into the public with their hand out saying "pay for my kids' health care because we can't afford insurance". Maybe, just maybe, they should have gotten insurance for their first two kids before they had the 3rd kid, and then the 4th kid.

I asked how much the health care costs were. Would they have bankrupted the family - $300,000 in health care costs in one year? That's crazy. Somebody is making alot of money off of their misfortune if that is the case.

There is a problem with "free" health care that we on the left do not want to talk about. It's the reason I support co-pays. We could all be bankrupted if everybody goes to the doctor and gets unlimited health care that everyone else pays for. Do I NEED physical therapy? Well, if it does not cost ME anything, then I will probably take it. Or closer to home, my knee hurts all the time, especially after my job, which requires standing and walking the entire time. Do I NEED knee surgery?

Obviously not. I will not die without it at this point. My decision to get it or not, is going to depend on the cost to me. $5,000? Nope, don't need it. $50 (with an insurance company or government paying the other $4,950)? Then, what the heck? It's worth $50 for me to be able to walk without pain. But is it fair to ask society to pay for something that is for my convenience? Will unlimited free riders since the lifeboat? Or is that just my medication talking?

[Missy Vixen]

40. Oh, that makes it all okay then.

We own a home. We'll be in debt until we're seventy, but it's also shelter and a tax-deductible investment.

Those with children must have a residence. Not a cardboard box, but a residence. It would be much more expensive for them to rent an apartment than pay the mortgage on a $55,000 residence, which is exactly what their home was purchased for fifteen years ago according to the State of Maryland. Reading your response tells me that you have never read an accounting of the injuries Graeme and Jemma Frost sustained in the car accident they were involved in. http://www.kennedykrieger.org/kki_touch_article.jsp?pid=4884 The article outlines brain injuries that are significant, required much physical therapy and medical intervention to even offer any quality of life for either child, and surely outstripped $300,000 per year in cost.

The injuries and subsequent recovery has probably also affected their parents' ability to hold jobs that earn more money. Even with two other children at home, I have no idea whether or not they can be left alone for any period of time, so one parent must need to be on the premises during all after-school hours and in the evening.

>But is it fair to ask society to pay for something that is for my convenience?<

Is it fair to ask others to pay exponentially more to repair the injury you already have when you have aggravated and increased it due to ignoring it over the years, until it becomes unusable? As Bill Clinton would say, that dog won't hunt. Most of the issues in health care today are due to the lack of preventative care, which is CHEAP, and yields a healthier population as a result.

If you're going to argue that the Frosts should have simply allowed their children to die or to NOT receive the therapy and the surgery that ended up giving them some quality of life to save the rest of us money, I can only wonder what your motivation is.

Julie

[alarimer]

27. Universal health care for all, right now

Then we can stop having these arguments about who deserves it and who does not. Everyone is covered for everything, no matter how much money they make.

[Tyler Durden]

23. Tried buying outside healthcare recently? I have.

For $700 bucks a month. Essentially catastrophic. When I tried to get PPO they turned me down (pre existing bla bla) so the only one who'd take me: BCBS for $1000/month.

Let's see:

$45,000
-12,000 BCBS
-14,400 (their mortgage)

LEAVES $19,000 BEFORE TAXES FOR A FAMILY OF 6.

Personally, I think they'd STARVE.

[sniffa]

20. and stiLL no granite

[Tyler Durden]

21. WHY isn't that fucker TOMBSTONED????

He pasted a post from FR VERBATIM and then proceeds to DEFEND IT????

Followed by childish taunts and insults?

WHERE are the mods? HELLO?

[Burma Jones]

28. Did a little research....a few quotes from elsewhere

Facts have never stopped idiots from trying to sell their story. And only an idiot would listen to anything involving Howard (the a$$ bag) Stern. But alas there are quite a few idiots out there. That�s why a good percentage of the populous should NOT be allowed to vote. They�re just to f***ing dumb. No wonder America is approaching third world status in education. Listen to Rush and actually LEARN something. God gave you a brain � use it� or listen to Howard and remain a moron indefinitely. Your choice!


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bill1usmc | 22 de julho de 2007
OK, so you're a liberal douche bag that watches FOX News a lot. We get it. So go drive your left wing solar powered ass off a cliff and take your poverty pip friend Al Sharpton with you. The world would be a better place.


He's also a member of the Asian Massage Group on Yahoo.........


What will you wager that he has a wide stance as well?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

37. He's got a myspace page

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=221152173

[jonnyblitz]

38. he has listed the "left behind" series in the "books" category.

that is all I need to know about ThAT wackjob.

[ThomCat]

39. And Fox News in the TV category!

Grade A Troll. x(

[Javaman]

33. That guy was a brainwashed hoot. LOL

He never did answer the question regarding a single payer system. funny how that is.

another tool into the dustbin of the banned.

I think he got all his 36 posts on that thread alone. LOL

his gross overuse of capitalization was amusing.

[Danger Mouse]

34. a very enjyoable TS'ing for that one.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

36. He's TS'ed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=208931

[regnaD kciN]

43. Always speak good of the dead...

He's dead. Good!