Death Penalty Poll

[southerngirlwriter]

The murder of the little girl in Florida has me wondering if attitudes about the death penalty among liberals differs a great deal based on personal experiences. For purposes of this poll, "family" means "person I knew well, loved a great deal and considered a permanent part of my life." (i.e. your same-sex partner or best best friend or whatever certainly counts as family, regardless of what the law, the dictionary, or freepers might say)

Please read all options before voting. Thank you!

[Carlie]

1. So far, I have lost no one to murder, yet I

am still ambivalent about the death penalty.

It is impossible for me to support it now as it, IMO, is not applied equally to differenct races and that must be fixed.

But, say it was applied equally and my daughter was tortured, sexually abused and murdered.

I just can't say...

[southerngirlwriter]

2. If such a horrible thing were to happen,

I would be in favor of the sentencing judge asking you what your wishes were and then abiding by them. If you wanted the killer dead, off he goes to be lethally injected. If you wanted life with no parole, that's okay, too. That scenario happens occasionally -- Matthew Shepard's parents elected to give the boys who murdered their son life in prison instead of death -- and I think it should be the general rule (obviously, there are sometimes good reasons not to follow the family's wishes).

[Whitacre D_WI]

3. I voted "other."

I have not lost anyone to murder (crosses fingers).

My take is this: Do some people deserve to die for what they've done? Sure. Is the state the proper organ to carry out capital punishment in a just manner? I have never seen any evidence that this is so.

So I shed no tears when a killer is executed; but I do feel 1) incredibly dirty that blood vengeance (and it is vengeance, plain and simple) is being carried out in my name, and 2) the death of a single innocent person calls into doubt the ENTIRE institution of capital punishment in America.

[gator_in_Ontario]

22. My problem with the death penalty is mis-trust of the government to

be up a task that is so important. They have a hard time paving the damn roads properly.

[SheilaT]

4. What I like to ask people

who favor the death penalty is: How do you suppose other countries manage without one?

If it's such a deterrent, we should have the lowest murder rate in the world, but we don't. I wonder why that is.

Killing people to show that killing is wrong. Yup, that makes a lot of sense.

[southerngirlwriter]

26. Our murder rate is high because guns are so available.

Also, it's not a deterrent because of the time factor.

In countries where the time factor is much less than the average of 14 or 15 years (as it is here), it's a deterrent. Big-time.

A friend of mine ( and I am NOT advocating this, don't even start -- I'm answering her question about other countries!) lived in the Middle East for two years. You murder someone there on Monday, they stone you to death on Wednesday.

The entire time she was there, in the whole freakin' country, there were THREE murders.

There were that many in my *county* in the last two weeks.

[mvd]

30. Those are part of it

Another big factor is the too-high level of capitalism we have here in the US IMO - too many people without hope. That said, when people reach a certain level of craziness, I don't think anything can stop them. I see the death penalty as one of the subjective topics in politics: both sides have points of view that are hard to refute with facts. You can refute certain points, but not really the overall points of view.

[supernova]

5. Opposed to death penalty

What are we really doing when we kill a killer?

- Are we deterring murder? No, capital punishment is meeted out every year in this country, yet we still have the highest murder rate in the developed world. Name me one almost-murderer who said "Gee, I could get the death penality if I kill this person now," and walked away. You're asking for a rational response from an irrational person. Doesn't happen. The deterrance rationale falls flat.

- Are we protecting society by keeping him/her from killing again? Lifetime imprisonment serves the same purpose.

- Giving the victim's family some peace after the crime? Well maybe. And here's where my fortunate lack of experience falls short. I certainly can't pretend to understand the pain of losing someone to violence. However, I don't know how killing the killer mollifies that grief. Is it that the family feels they aren't safe with the killer still living, even if they are in prison for life? The original victim is just as dead. Perhaps someone who has had to deal with this could highlight.

- Then there's the unequal way in which the death penalty is handed down in this country. This, IMO, should throw gasoline on all other anti-death penalty reasons. I shudder to think that we in all probability have executed innocent men.

[southerngirlwriter]

9. I lost a family member to murder.

No more details than that will be forthcoming, sorry.

It gave me peace when the killer was executed. Not in a vengeful sense -- I didn't cheer or feel vindicated or what have you.

It was just that a lot of painful things stopped.

I no longer heard my family member's favorite song on the radio, felt sad that my loved one wasn't here to enjoy it anymore, and then wondered if the murdering bastard was hearing it over in his cell?

I no longer felt the sunshine on my face while taking a walk, remembered the pleasant walks my loved one and I took together so many times, and then wondered if the killer was enjoying the sunshine as he walked around the prison yard on his federally-guaranteed hour of exercise?

A good deal of the mental anguish -- not the emotional pain, and there is a difference -- ended.

Now, I will say that in my case there was unequivocal (DNA) proof of guilt. If there had been even a shadow of doubt that the convicted one was actually guilty, I would have felt much differently.

[grannylib]

13. My heart goes out to you...and while we may disagree, I can certainly

respect your feelings, and I am glad it helped bring you some peace...

[supernova]

18. Thank you for sharing your story,

I am sorry for your loss, southerngirlwriter.

FWIW I wasn't asking for details of the crime so much as effect on the family and you answered my question.

I too, hope DNA evidence becomes more prevalent and that the FBI has cleaned up it's sloppy labwork, but that could be a whole other thread.

Another question: Is grief over a voilent death fundamentally different from grief over a dealth say due to illness or old age?

Peace,

Supernova

[southerngirlwriter]

24. Yes, it is (or has been in my experience)

Death to old age is a natural thing that's expected. When someone dies of old age, it's usually peaceful. My Grandmother went in her sleep.

A violent death is very different. You're going about your life when you get a phone call or knock on the door from the police. You rush to the hospital where, if you're lucky, you get to say goodbye. If you're not, instead of taking you to the ER or the ICU, they take you to the morgue.

Look at the body of someone you love beaten and savaged with dried blood on their clothes after they've died a slow, agonizing, painful death by gunshot or stabbing (or both).

Look at that body and realize that this person you would have given your own life for is gone.

Look at that body and realize that you will always remember them that way and no amount of money or tears or anything else you could give will erase it.

Then watch yourself turn to the policeman and say, "Yes, that's her."

Yes, my friend, it's very different. When my Grandma died she looked like she was sleeping. It was hard, but nowhere near as difficult as the outcome of a violent murder.

I agree with arwalden that the death penalty is barbaric.

However, my attitude is, "So what?"

In the same way that you wouldn't reason with an escaped tiger in the zoo coming at you who wants to eat your 4-year-old for lunch -- you would shoot them -- sometimes barbarism is appropriate.

Sad but true.

[mvd]

25. Again, while we disagree, I respect your position

:hi:

[supernova]

32. Here's where I get off the sympathy train

I agree with arwalden that the death penalty is barbaric.


However, my attitude is, "So what?"

And my attitude is equally that society should not be about the business of condoning, let alone codifying into law, revenge. I do not want the state to commit murder in my name.

I do agree with you that capital punishment is more of a deterrent where it retains the public spectacle aspect. We used to cut their heads off and post them on the spikes of the palace gates. I have absolutely no desire to return to that mentality.

In the same way that you wouldn't reason with an escaped tiger in the zoo coming at you who wants to eat your 4-year-old for lunch -- you would shoot them -- sometimes barbarism is appropriate.

I get your point. However, these days that tiger is more likely to be shot with a tranquilizer gun than a real bullet. Kid doesn't get eaten; tiger gets returned to its exhibit.

To sum up, while I think it is very important to acknowledge the feelings of the agrieved, we should be about the business of finding acceptable alternatives rather than remaining "barbaric."

[YellowRubberDuckie]

36. Tigers and humans are two different animals...

And if a person acts like a tiger, they should be put out of their misery. A tiger is just fulfilling it's natural instinct to kill for meat. Humans have evolved out of such behavior, or at least should have. Please don't compare apples and oranges. Southerngirlwriter, I totally agree, and I'm sorry for your loss.
Duckie

[southerngirlwriter]

39. My point is that you wouldn't try to bring the tiger up to your level.

You wouldn't reason with him. You wouldn't say, "See here! My daughter has the right to life! You have to find a way to eat without taking a little girl's life!"

Pedophiles and child-killers can't be reasoned with. Attempts to do so are futile, foolish, and a waste of time. Every one of them that's executed is one less using natural resources on this planet.

Harsh? Maybe.

It's still true. I wish human beings were free of both barbarism and the need for barbarism, but we're not.

:shrug:

[supernova]

51. And my point is we non-murdering public

should not, to use your vernacular, be bringing ourselves down to the killer's level. How can you pass judgement on someone's behavior if you're willing to engage in that same behavior? What makes the State's behavior better than the killer's? It isn't. It's illogical and not worthy of a free and open society governed by law -- one that pretends to be, at any rate.

As for punishment vs. reform, I'm not saying we should "reason with the killer." You're debating with something I've not said, neither directly or indrectly, in this thread. Not surprising really. It's a standard straw-man that conservatives love to dance naked around in front of us liberals.

Anybody convicted of murder should remain in jail for the rest of his/her life, preferrably solitary confinement. S/he can exist on bread and water for all I care.

Yes, our brains do have a primitive, animalistic side. There are places and times when it is useful: Had sex last night? Left the vicinity of someone who bothered you recently? Other times, it's harmful, and causes us to lash out against another. While that must be dealt with, there is nothing in nature that says we the public (not the killer) must give in to that impulse and return violence for violence.

If that be the case, then you are condemning humanity to the same cycle of violence that has plagued us since time immemorial. I for one want to break the pattern. And I can think of several others down through the eons who have tried to break the pattern, one person especially.

[arwalden]

19. It Doesn't Mollify Grief... It Mollifies The Desire For Revenge

The execution does not provide "closure" for the loss, nor does it help with the grief. It only provides satisfaction for the desire for revenge and to quench the thirst of anger.

I think the anger and the bloodlust for revenge become so entangled and embedded in the grief that people actually believe that their grief and the sorrow of their loss is somehow assuaged. I do understand how they could feel this way.

It's not justice. It's barbaric.

-- Allen

[Rowdyboy]

6. Yes it does affect your attitude

My baby brother was murdered in 1995.

It definitely affects your attitude.

[bif]

7. Proud to be from the first state to ban the death penalty!

Gotta love Michigan!

[terrya]

8. What would be a worse punishment....

A quick, painless death by lethal injection...

Or life in prison...WITHOUT parole, without cashing in on your notoriety. Your freedom gone forever. Everything you have is gone. A lifetime to ruminate on your crime.

I think the latter.

I can understand the pain of families who have lost a loved one to a senseless murder. I really can. But putting someone to death isn't going to bring that person back to life.

We, as a society, should be better than this.

I know there is a seeming hypocrisy to the idea of "it's barbaric to take a life with the death penalty, but legal abortion is ok". I have my qualms about abortion. But abortion is a private decision between a woman and her doctor.

The death penalty is just morally wrong. At least to me.

Terry

[Superfly]

16. Punishment for whom?

LWOP...

Punishment for the crook or the people who pay taxes to keep him/her alive.

I think the latter.

I would rather buy $1000 hammers for NASA with my tax dollars than keep murderers, rapists, and child molesters alive.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

37. Terry, that's what they gave Susan Smith...

And now she's looking for pen pals telling them that she chalks up the murder of her children to her IMMATURITY...Most of the people locked up don't sit and think about what they've done. They take classes and work for nothing, sometimes getting to go outside. No. Living is too good for some people.
Duckie

[pansypoo53219]

10. the death 'penalty'

is usually far a more pleasant way to die compared to how vitims die, and if there IS a MISTAKE, well, too bad, the guy is dead. of course for PROVEN serial killers? then it's ok if you kill them the wa they killed.
and of course i favor the death penalty child molestors and rapists.

[bif]

11. Would George Bush be tried in a state that has the death penalty?

I guess I'd make an exception to my opposition to the death penalty in this case.

[grannylib]

12. I lost my daughter, not to outright murder, but to vehicular homicide

(drunk driver) and I am opposed to the death penalty (not that it would have been imposed in this case, it was the driver's first offense) for several reasons:
- The thought of a mistake being made and an innocent person being executed is just too much for me;
- I don't believe it's much of a deterrent;
- I believe life in prison to be a more severe punishment (if it's PRISON and not a country club; I believe in basic humane treatment of prisoners but have a problem with some of what seem to be benefits that members of free society don't always have), although I also realize the enormous costs to society (monetary and otherwise) of lifetime incarceration
- I believe the death penalty is very unevenly applied

Just a few of my personal reasons for objecting to it

[SixShooter]

14. I live in Sarasota

and lost friends of the family up in Georgia to double homicide. This guy needs to die, period. Anyone who kills an 11 year old knowingly needs to die.

An eye for an eye in my opinion.

[southerngirlwriter]

15. There are philosophers who would agree with you.

They would say that the death penalty is just, and therefore it should be carried out by a society that is aiming for justice, regardless of cost, deterrence, etc.

I'm not saying I hold that view, but there are respected philosophers, some of whom I studied in college, who do.

[arwalden]

17. My Grandfather Was Murdered

(I'm now the same age as he was when he was killed. Forty-three.)

It was 1954. My grandfather was a deputy sheriff in Lowndes County Georgia. My dad was 17 and my grandmother was 8 months pregnant with their fourth child.

It was a routine traffic stop for speeding/reckless driving. Only, my grandfather didn't know that the guy he was stopping had just shot someone in a fight. When my grandfather approached the car, he pulled out his gun and shot him three times in the chest. He died a couple of hours later at the hospital.

After more than 45 years in prison, the man who shot my grandfather died (in prison) in the late 90's.

-- Allen

[NNadir]

27. My Grandfather was murdered too.

He probably was on a bender drinking up the money he should have been giving to my Grandmother and their four children (one of whom was my father) when he got stabbed 40 times and thrown in the East River. They found the body a few weeks later and I'm sure no one even looked into the matter of who the killer might be.

As I didn't know my Grandfather, and almost no one would even speak of him except to mutter vague curses, I don't know whether I can fairly claim to constitute someone who lost a family member to murder. I can say though that I oppose the death penalty under all circumstances.

[flamingyouth]

20. My friend Sara was murdered in 1978

They still have not caught the killer, although every day I am hopeful that the cold case detectives will take another look, maybe find some DNA evidence. I like to watch forensics shows like "Cold Case Files," et al.

Having said that, I'm ambivalent about the death penalty. I think I would be against it if I hadn't known someone who was brutally raped and murdered when she was only 15. I definitely agree that it can change one's opinion of it.

[mvd]

21. While I'm tempted to want it for cases like Carlie Brucia's case..

I remain opposed in all cases due to wanting the system to be completely fair and due to not wanting us to lower ourselves to the level of the murderer. I've never had a friend or family member murdered, but if I did, of course I'd want the person dead - but probably not in a state-sanctioned way.

[Cuban_Liberal]

23. I've lost a family member to murder, and I oppose it.

It is revenge, pure and simple, and I'm not some animal whose most atavistic desires must be appeased--- I am a civilized human being who wants to see justice done. Lock 'em up for natural life at hard labor, because that's punishment, but don't throw blood on my cousin's tombstone, and try to convince me that that's justice.

[southerngirlwriter]

43. Where do murderers get "hard labor" ??

In my area, murderers go to maximum security lockups and spend their days watching TV and enjoying their federally-guaranteed hour a day of exercise outside.

I am unaware of any prisons that require "hard labor." Mopping up bathrooms, etc., sure. Picking up trash on the highway happens all the time but NOT for maximum-security prisoners.

People with life-no-parole sentences are at highest risk to escape (what do they have to lose, after all?) and so generally are kept in their cells almost all the time.

If your loved one's murderer sitting in a cell eating three meals a day that you are helping to pay for and laughing at Friends, keeping up with who's voted off the island this week, etc., gives you peace, then I wish you well.

[Duckiesplaything]

28. The death penalty

Is far too lenient, there is always a chance for reincarnation. Need to find a way to stop that...

[Lostmessage]

29. My 26 year old cousins husband killed her

She went to the hospital to get her appendix out and when she came home he accused her of going out of town with another man.
He blew her head off that night and she was only 26 years old and the guy is living a full life with a new family in the South.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ratty]

33. Something a civilized culture doesn't do

I was ambivalent about the death penalty for years, but I finally realized I categorically oppose it. There's lots of arguments against it: It's racist and classist. Mistaken convictions can never be undone. It's hugely expensive. But finally I listened to my gut reaction. A civilized society simply doesn't put its citizens to death. I say let's move beyond ancient Rome.

[Liberal Christian]

34. Oops ... I didn't read the options well enough

I have lost an acquaintance to murder, and I am not in favor of the death penalty. (I marked, "I have not lost a family member to murder and I am not in favor of the death penalty.")

I will never be able to understand why if I believe it was wrong for a murderer to kill someone in the first place it's suddenly right for me, through my tax dollars, to kill the murderer.

My mama taught me "two wrongs don't make a right" and, fundamentally, that's always guided my thinking on the death penalty.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

35. I am only for the death penalty when it comes to a few cases...

I am a liberal when it comes to most things, but when it comes to death pentalty cases, I'm probably almost freeper like. I believe that if someone is going to be put to death, there should be some kind of absolute proof that fingers them. I'm not talking witnesses because they are very unreliable. I'm talking DNA, confessions, hair and fingerprints at the scene.

I also believe they should give the death penalty to those that molest children. There is no hope for them, and if they do it once, there is significant evidence that says that they will do it again. My cousin, Lisa, is the most beautiful person that I have ever met. Her step father (Who happened to be my uncle on my dad's side of the family. Her mom is my mom's sister) molested her when she was 9. Her mother would never believe her. She's now made sure that no man ever finds her attractive, and is scared of men. She's a lesbian and has made herself unattactive to keep them away. I'm glad that bastard died in horrible pain of pneumonia gasping for breath. It was way too good for him.

Rapists deserve it too. If you think putting them in prison is going to reform someone who raped someone, think again. There's a significant chance that if someone rapes another person, they're going to do it again. It's about power, it's about violence, and it's about being dominant over someone else. Taking something like that away from someone else is one of the worst crimes you can commit. That person has to see that for the rest of their lives. It never goes away.

Of course murders deserve it. If you kill you should expect to be killed. Plain and simple.

I know I'm going to totally get flamed for what I have just said. I don't care. It's the way I feel. But I think that they should be 100% positive that the person they have behind bars for that crime is the one that did it. I don't want them to just kill someone to make themselves feel better. I think that if they have the right person, the death penalty is completely justified. Sorry for the long post. This is just something that I'm very passionate about.

Duckie

[Dennis Quaranta]

38. Traumatic Experiences

<<She's now made sure that no man ever finds her attractive, and is scared of men. She's a lesbian and has made herself unattactive to keep them away.>>

I don't think traumatic experiences make people gay.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

45. I don't either...but I think this is the reason she's scared of men.

[Dennis Quaranta]

49. Fear of Men

Fear of men doesn't turn women in to Lesbians, either.

[southerngirlwriter]

40. I agree with you for cases of unequivocal guilt.

A grown man whose semen is found on an 8 year old girl?

Gee, there's plenty of food, air, and water that someone else can use after he's gone.

DNA evidence that proves guilt in a murder beyond any reasonable doubt?

Bye-bye. Enjoy your stay in wherever you end up (I am not sure about the afterlife).

A man kidnaps, rapes, and murders an 11 year old?

Tough shit. Strap him down and put the needle in his arm.

Reason, mercy, and compassion are for human beings. Sexual predators and serial killers and the like aren't human.

Next will come the accusations of fascism "Yeah, well, if we execute people for raping and murdering little girls, next they'll execute you for reading the wrong book!"

:puke:

The thing that makes me the most disgusted is that when this animal goes on trial, we'll get to hear all about his pitiful childhood. Guess what? I had a childhood that has made four shrinks CRY. I don't rape, murder, molest, and kill.

This animal may have had a bad childhood.

Carlie will never have to worry about having a bad childhood.

She'll never have a childhood again, nor an adulthood to contemplate her childhood in.

[mvd]

44. In my mind they are human, but..

they have serious mental problems combined with aggressive tendencies. Unfortunately, some people have those. I definitely feel for you, but I'm also firm in my position.

[BL_Zebub]

41. I'm the CEO of Hell, and I get to torment murderers for all eternity

so the means by which they arrive in Hell are irrelevant to me. All that I ask is that if it's a major serial killer like John Wayne Gacy, or The Green River Killer, or George Dumbya is that I have adequate time to prepare a fitting eternal torment for them. I barely got Jeffery Dahmer's new home built when he showed up unexpectedly, after his little "accident" in prison.

[Pithlet]

42. Lost someone, and against it.

I've heard gut wrenching accounts from families, and all sorts of reasons why a person deserves the death penalty.

I can't argue with those feelings. I have them often, myself. No one has ever convinced me that we should give into those feelings, rather then being a just society. A vengeful society kills. A just one does not. No one has the right to decide to take a life, period. There was an example someone used of a tiger and a child. That is a case of self defense, and does not apply. You bet I'd kill to defend my child's life, human or beast. And I'd back up anyone else that has done so. That isn't even an issue, IMO.

We're talking about making the decision and carrying it out in a methodical manner. That I can never accept. Human beings are fallible. As long as the possibility of making a mistake is there, the chance that an innocent person dies is there.

It is not worth it for even one person innocent killed. Not one. There is no way to guarantee that will not happen, because human beings are infallible. If the state gets into the business of killing people, eventually it will kill the wrong one, no matter how careful they are.

[ProudGerman]

47. Eventually?

Innocent people have been executed since the punishment was re-instated. There is no chance of it, its happened. Even one is far, far too many.

[Pithlet]

48. Oh, I know that.

Another major reason I'm against it. I was talking from a general standpoint. Any society that instill one will eventually kill an innocent, just as we already have, and will continue to do so as long as it is in effect.

[nini]

46. At first I'd want to kill the person myself.

but when it came time to put them to death, I wouldn't be able to go through it or have it done.

At least I believe that's how I would feel, but thankfully I don't know for sure.

[Loonman]

50. Does society really need human garbage like Carlie's murderer?

Do we really need scum like him drawing breath?

[populistmom]

52. While there are those evil enough to deserve the death penalty,

I can not reconconcile that with two serious truths on the subject:

1. If someone if put to death, there is no "taking it back" in the event of an unjust conviction.

2. The discrepancies regarding the disproportionate number of people who are poor or of color that are executed.

I have never lost a family member to murder, and perhaps that would cloud my viewpoint on an emotional level, but it still wouldn't negate these two truths.