DATING MUST BE DIFFERENT FOR YOU YOUNG ONES

[Skittles]

I mean, in "my day", a guy just maybe didn't call but you couldn't ALWAYS be by a phone. Now you'd have to know he didn't call you, leave you a message on the answering machine, or an Audix at work, or a personal email, or a work email, or an IM, blah, blah. You'd like know in 15 minutes if your ass was dumped, in several diffent ways, huh? :o

And you teenagers - what's it like for parents to be able to contact you ANYTIME THEY WANT ? OMG I think that would have SUCKED !!!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

1. I wouldn't know

I don't get dates

(loser)

[JohnKleeb]

3. dont remind me Mag

I am the same way.

[Edge]

18. Maybe you and LPFF should hook up...

nudge, nudge....wink wink. :)

[blondeatlast]

20. C'mon kids; you have at least 250 chaperones, by my estimate!

[JohnKleeb]

47. To be honest

That would be nice but not only are we seperated by miles heh, I do like her much but shes a friend. I do have someone, I would like to date though :).

[VOX]

33. Your time is coming, Mags!

You're a prize catch -- pretty, intelligent, caring, thoughtful, progressive -- what more could any decent guy ask for???

It's all about the boys -- your peer male friends probably aren't mature enough yet to take notice of the terrific girls in their midst -- and specifically, you.

Hang in there -- you'll be fighting 'em off with a stick soon enough!

:hi:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

36. aww

that's sweet, thanks rezmutt! :)

[MAlibdem]

2. Um...

I think we gets a lot more random booty.

And I can live with that.

[Skittles]

4. HEY

you have NOTHING on those of us from the 60's and 70's. We didn't NEED technology to rock the world !!! :D

[short bus president]

6. "didn't NEED technology"

were you one of those who booed when Dylan plugged in?

:P

[GOPisEvil]

7. "I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more..." BOOOOOOOOOO

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skittles]

8. NAH

IT WAS FINE WITH ME ! :thumbsup:

But then, I was never that big of a Dylan fan. :D

[blondeatlast]

21. Heh!

[DS1]

9. So I've heard

[dweller]

5. RROOOWWWRRRRRR......

but you always get the message out there, don't ya?

:D

wink,
dp

[leftist_rebel1569]

10. Dating sucks at any age

no matter how easily contactable you are.

And believe me, it's still hard as hell being a teen in love. Things have never at any point been easy AT ALL for me, and I know people that have had problems worse than mine. Cell phones sure as hell haven't changed my fortunes...

BTW, Yes it would suck to have your parents contact you anytime they wanted...a lot :P

[Rhiannon12866]

45. Yes, it sure does

I had a discussion with a nurse awhile ago about those just starting out discussing STDs just as a matter of course. How would you even bring that up? Help me with this. Eeww... Sorry, but I am a hopeless romantic, but, lately, also unlucky at love.:shrug:

[Alopenia]

11. I had two rules that worked well for me

I gave a guy ONE chance to call and I never put out until I got married.
If a guy didn't call when he said, it didn't matter how many times he called after that, I wouldn't see him. Those I did go out with, I never permitted anything more than kisses. I guess you could call me 'lucky' for getting to marry my soulmate, but on the other hand, I didn't waste time with inferior duds, and so when Mr. Right came around I was ready. So maybe that's not luck.

[Skittles]

12. "PUT OUT" ? WTF ?

Why are you using such an outdated, demeaning expression? Sex is not something to be shared but something YOU GIVE and HE TAKES ? I'm betting your hubby is as uptight as you are, making you the perfect match ???

[Alopenia]

13. I guess you

can call us 'uptight' if you like, but you're correct. We are the perfect match and soulmates, but I did have to go through a lot of horny guys before I found him. Thank God I did! I am also thankful I don't have to complain about how bad dating is. Cheers:)

[camero]

14. he takes?

That's the best workout I ever had. :)

[DS1]

15. wow

So you wouldn't even pick up the phone to hear if they had a good reason why they didn't call in your little timeframe?

*walks off laughing*

[Alopenia]

16. It had to be a really good excuse.

Most of the time it wasn't, so that was it for them.

[Odessey]

28. I agree!

Worked well for me too! Yeah, maybe it's an out-dated notion but it works. Been married for close to 24 years now to my best friend and lover. He was worth waiting for. I went through a couple of guys who were all arms and hands - and a few were REALLY tempting, let me tell ya'! By the way - congratulations for your great match!

[Alopenia]

29. Yep. 'Old-fashioned' rules are there for a reason--they work

But for some reason, people feel they can fly in the face of tired-and-true. Thanks for the kind words and congratulations on your happy long-lasting union, too!

[Dogmudgeon]

30. Such hauteur!

Sorry, it's not for me.

What is for me? Well, I'm entirely capable of waiting for sex and of calling when I say I will. My experience is that haughty women are worth about as much as alcoholics or drug addicts. Nothing is ever good enough, and it's always the man's fault.

I'm glad you did find your soul mate, though. I hope it's a good situation for him, too.

By the way, check out this book: Of Human Bondage (W. Somerset Maugham) It's also in Project Gutenberg since it's about 90 years old.

--bkl

[Alopenia]

31. It's not being haughty

It's really all about following the teachings of Christ. Even if you are not religious, the fact is, some practices have a propensity to fail and some have a propensity to work. It matters not what you believe or don't believe. It is REALITY. If your relationships are working to your satisfaction, then wonderful. If not, then you have to ask 'why not'? Could it be that you might have ignored what has been proven to work time and time again? In these so-called modern times, we often think we are so sophisticated that we can discard 'old fogey' ideas. Well, these old ideas have been around for centuries and there is a reason for that. May things start working in your life!

[Dogmudgeon]

38. Following Jesus?

You described your approach to courtship as having two main parts to it.

First, no sex. And that's fine. Sex is a personal choice for anyone to make. But you described yourself as "not permitting" anything except kissing.

"Not permitting"? Doesn't that put you in a position to give, and to take, permission? This is a master/servant relationship. It is the relationship of Caesar to the Roman Plebians, not the relationship of Redeemer to Sinner.

Second, you set a number of hoops through which a man would be required to jump. Anything less than that, and not only would the man be immediately "dissed and dismissed", but you would also disparage him. Didn't the Nazarene say something about being judgemental?

It worked for you, so you perceive it as being good. You have even worked it into your religious beliefs. But my own experience with such women is that they are high-maintainance, stuck up, and conceited. I understand that they may do this to mask their fear or feelings of weakness, but it would place me, as a courtier, in a masochistic position. Such a position is emotionally crippling and infantile. It is not mature love -- it is morbid dependancy.

The old-fashionedisms and time-worn techniques are not so old-fashioned as you would believe. They have not been around for "centuries". They are later developments of the European royal families. Most of them date back to the middle 1800s. And they never did penetrate places like pre-Communist Russia -- or all of Asia.

So, what is old-fashioned? It used to be that a man would negotiate with a woman's father, who would then give the woman to the man, along with a token payment called dowry. Once the man had the woman in his household, if the wife was not subservient to the man, marital harmony was kept by beatings. Yes, actual beatings, with belts and sticks and fists, often followed by punishment sex (we sophisticates usually call it rape these days). As late as the Depression, many states in the USA had laws on the books allowing men to whip their wives, and even specified the size of the stick that could be used. The "Rod of Discipline" was as often cited for women as for children.

Many women still have these ideas in their head; that a man doesn't really love a woman until and unless he smacks her around after an argument. "He mustn't love me -- he never hits me!" Argue all you want, and then talk to a marriage counselor. There are lots of people, of both genders, who have fundamentally destructive, atavistic ideas about courtship, love, sex, and family relations.

Men -- especially "macho" men -- have a nasty little saying about women. "Treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen." It's a truism, but it's based on the same "old-fashioned" view of women. Again, the sexism emerges. The primary lesson is this: when you treat people with disrespect, a certain large proportion of them will respond with obedience.

Is that Christian? I don't think so.

Yes, I think that making a man "perform" socially robotic tasks under high pressure is a form of disrespect -- just as much as expecting a woman "put out" on a date.

So, what about me? Every time things haven't worked out with a woman in my life, it was because I became masochistic. I gave the woman the benefit of the doubt when she began to act like a princess. After the break-ups, more than one of them told me that I was "too nice." Should I have been abusive, betrayed her trust, acted like a jerk? That would have "worked"!

The old-fashioned things that do work are disgusting. Begging for sex, ignoring someone, treating her like she's worthless, physical abuse, drugs like GHB and Rohypnol, messing with her mind -- it is easy to find people who will vouch for such methods. As for them being old-fashioned, I can only tell you that they are well-described in Ovid's Ars Amatoria -- 'The Art of Love'. He wrote it as a satire on the same kinds of courtship behavior popular among the Romans, at about the time Jesus was on the Earth.

Personally, if I ever had to stoop to that level to find sex, let alone to find love, I'd withdraw from the world and be all the happier.

What do I do now? I simply don't take abuse. Sure, I give my girlfriends "second chances" by the dozens. Nobody's perfect, and if a woman gets snotty with me, I assume it's a temporary lapse in her manners. I am also capable of lapses. But to celebrate haughty discourtesy is the stuff of which Sex In The City and Speed Seduction are made. And to elevate such behavior to the level of religious faith is downright blasphemous. IMHO.

I'm looking for women -- and ultimately, one individual woman -- whose love life is not guided by bourgeouis 19th century Euro-royalty courtship games. Someone who can love me as I would want to love her. A partner, not a social attachment. The Master/Servant mentality is a disease that has badly infected our civilization since its inception. By breaking out of it, relationships become better, and all without missed phone calls, enforced or withheld sex, courtship tests, or any of the other handmaidens of social abuse.

Good luck in your life. But if things should ever stop working so well, please consider a "sophistication" that dates back not 150 years, but 200,000 years -- encounter your partner as if he was the first person you ever met, and without ever having heard a word of courtship advice.

--bkl

[camero]

41. I was wondering why this system is so whacked out.

Now I know. Good post.

[Odessey]

35. Haughty?

Is it haughty for a woman to have respect for herself and the person she is with? Is is haughty to expect that, when someone says he will call, that he will? Don't forget, when there weren't cell phones, you had to wait by the phone when a guy said he was going to call. You couldn't leave the house or HE would think you were avoiding him. So, if he was considerate and didn't want to waste your time, he had better have a good excuse for not calling.

Why is is haughty to say - "I don't want to have sex with you/I don't think we are meant for each other/I don't love you/I'm not ready for a relationship/I don't know you well enough"? Seems to me you have made an unfair judgement about women who choose to wait for the guy they really love. Let's see, I could have married the guy who, eventually, ended up in jail, or the one who is a loudmouth and the best he could do is end up as a night clerk at K-mart (actually, he went out with my cousin after I refused to go out with him a second time - they are now married). I could name several others. I'll bet YOU are picky about whom you date - and who you choose to commit to. Then again, with some guys, as long as the lady's got "all the right parts" it doesn't matter because, when it's all said and the deed is done, they won't be seeing them again anyways.

[Dogmudgeon]

42. About *hauteur*

You're describing something different than Alopenia was talking about.

First, you should read the post I just made ("Following Jesus?"). I go into great detail about respect. What you have described are incidents of petty disrespect. They are mild forms of abuse, and you would be right to not tolerate them.

To "diss and dismiss" a guy after a single failure to perform a social ritual is likewise an incident of petty disrespect. If you treat a man like that, you should not consider the guy your cousin married to be so different. Disrespect has many styles.

I'm not making unfair judgements. I'm calling for people to be less judgemental and more connected to what's actually going on. Nearly every time I failed a woman's social "test", the test itself was a form of disrespect. The prize was humiliation; but ultimately, I learned who not to get involved with.

The real mistakes I have made with my partners have been more 'subtle' and more from my stupidity than willful disrespect. And when it hasn't worked out in a long-term relationship "because of" the woman, again, it wasn't from her being haughty, it was from an actual, real problem in our relationship. But missing a phone call or getting our sex signals crossed? Not hardly!

I am fairly picky about who I date, but I don't evaluate anyone based on rituals, looks, sexual access, or how easily I can bully them. There really is only one rule -- does she treat me well? She can fart in public and joke about it, she can get sloppy drunk from being nervous, she can put off sex for months or take me home for a boink fifteen minutes after we've met, she can lose my phone number or call obsessively at exactly 11:32 AM, 6:36 PM and 10:41 PM every day, she can be a Feminazi or a practitioner of Fascinating Womanhood®, but if she treats me well, that's all that matters. And it ensures that I will treat her well.

Life is not perfect. Neither are men, nor women. I don't like to judge imperfect people by even-less-perfect social devices. Because every time I've done it, the real idiot was ME.

--bkl

[Alopenia]

44. You shouldn't be 'judgmental' about a prospective life partner?

Excuse me, but that notion is nutty as hell. Yes, you shouldn't be judgmental about the new family that moves in two doors down. Yes, you shouldn't be judgmental about the new child in your son's class, but this is a life partner we are talking about! Everyone, whether you admit it or not, conducts some sort of mental test about a prospective partner. If you don't, you're an idiot
I am very sorry things haven't worked out in your romantic life. But for you to cast my relationship in such a way that implies some sort of dominance and servitude is just ridiculous.
There is a reason most religious traditions call for abstinence outide marriage. It isn't for control or any other selfish reason. It is because it WORKS. And it works regardless of whether or not you believe it will. Sure, there are exceptions in both directions. But the fact is, study after study shows relationships which include sex outside of marriage have a high preponderance of NOT lasting. Relationships that are abstinent outside of marriage show a high tendency of lasting.
In searching the causes for your own lack of success in relationships, perhaps you should look at what people in successful relationships instead of slamming them in such a knee-jerk fashion.
You can rationalize your failures if it makes you feel good, but you if blame everything but the cause, you're destined to repeat the failure.
Let me give you some food for thought about your statement that some of your relationships have failed because you are 'too nice' and gave too many second chances: First of all, being a doormat has nothing to do with being nice. If yourwoman friend does something completely rude, such as standing you up or otherwise disrespecting you, you don't stand for it. Make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable. If she walks, she walks, but at least you aren't wasting any more time on someone who is not worthy. If, on the other hand, the woman is right for you, and if the bad behavior is an aberration, then she will probably straighten up and respect you even more for standing up to her.
I have had roommates who have given guys the runaround time after time. The guy calls asking for a date, and she says she might have plans, but call back later to just in case. So the guy calls back and INVARIABLY, my roommate is still unavailable, but still throws out a 'hook' that she might be available later and that he should call back. This is CRAZY. The guy is a doormat. She doesn't respect that.
My relatively strict policy with guys has been that I don't take any crap like that. If he doesn't do what he says he'll do, especially initially, he might get one chance if it's warranted, but otherwise he's history. The result? I've saved both of us time, and I had room when a respectful man showed up in my life. I married him, and we have done well for a long time. So plese don't put down my successful approach. Address your unsuccessful one!

[Skittles]

37. THANIK YOU BKL

it all sounds quite distasteful, doesn't it? Clinical. YUCK.

[Alopenia]

46. Distasteful? Clinical?

Nothing distasteful about a happy relationship. Nothing clinical about choosing life partners wisely.

[Edge]

17. hahahaha...

I didn't allow my parents to contact me on a date when I was in high school...hell, I didn't even have a cell phone. (I still don't.) :)

[Kamika]

19. It's actually ok that they are able to reach me anytime

When I was like 13 and me and my friend were out abit late my Mom would like worry to death, and send Dad out searching for me.


In my later teens she would just call :D

If I were out on a date I just set the phone to buzz and like send a message to her when my date would be busy

[BlondieK143]

22. Boys are silly.

lol or something like that? (putting on flame-resistent clothes).
My best friend just got out of a serious relationship and she thought things were great. He broke up with her by a text message. *rolling eyes*

Sometimes I like the fact that people can get ahold of me anytime. In case anything were to happen, I'm right there. But then again, drunken calls at 3AM start to get a little annoying.

[Hubert Flottz]

23. My entire life would have been a clusterflop!

I migh have sneaked ever so quietly into old widow Hogjaw Twaddle's yard and silently climbed up in her prize June apple tree, trying to avoid detection by the old widow's radar ears! I might have gotten well up into the upper branches out of sight and just taken my first big bite of a BIG juicy stolen apple and the cell phone would have started ringing! "HELLO G#$%@#n*T!" "Hello I'm calling for the FOP and I was wondering" Well anyway you get the idea! Big Bubba is watching us all now, they even know what sticky fingered Dick Halliburton is stealing, so I guess stealing a kiss is out of the question!

[trof]

24. THE RULES

Here were the rules when I was 17:
1. You HAD to call the girl.
2. The girl could NEVER call you. Not under ANY circumstances. If your mom found out a girl called you she wouldn't let you take her out because she was obviously a slut because she called you.
3. The ONLY exception to rules 1 and 2 were the annual Sadie Hawkins Day at school. Girls had to ask boys to the dance that night.
4. The "three call" rule. You could call a girl and ask for a date THREE TIMES, and no more. If she had prior plans each time, that was the polite way to tell you that she thought you were a total slob and loser and would never consider going out with you under any circumstances.
5. If you hadn't kissed her by the third date, IT WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!
Sex? You're kidding, right?

[HEyHEY]

25. Just turn your cell off

[TrogL]

26. My daughter's idea of a date

is to play yahoo games and gossip in the chat window.

She's beend dating this guy for two years and I've yet to lay eyes on him.

[trof]

27. Wow! She doesn't even know

if he's a good kisser.
My, how times have changed.

[OhioStateProgressive]

32. I suppose I qualify as young

I don't know...cell phones are probably the least of my dating problems:)

[jus_the_facts]

34. I'd have hated havin' a cell phone back in the day.....

.....I NEVER called my parents...if they'd been able to summon me home at their whim....oh there'd been many more *dysfunctional* episodes goin' down around the ol' homestead...can't even begin to imagine the control cell phones have over the kids today. *shudder* :scared:

[Lady Freedom]

39. well...

Skittles= And you teenagers - what's it like for parents to be able to contact you ANYTIME THEY WANT ? OMG I think that would have SUCKED !!!


I am 25 years old and muy parents still call to cheek on me when I'm on a date!

[Dogmudgeon]

43. Parents

I live with my mother and my grandmother. My father died in 1996.

I have good relationships with each of them. And, when he was alive, with my father, as well.

At 25, you're still closer to being an actual child. I'm 45. However, women can be enormously judgemental about that, assuming I'm a "mama's boy" or some such nonsense.

Your parents may also be a little too protective. At 25, they should expect you to handle yourself, even being capable of going home with your date or boyfriend for the night if it's appropriate.

Don't push your parents away. As an adult, you're allowed to convince them that you really are an adult. Rebellion against one's parents after about age 22 is pretty regressive. Few parents are so sick that they can't see the difference that adulthood brings.

--bkl

[LoZoccolo]

40. What is an "Audix"?

Same as a voicemail?