Today's No-Shit! Headline: Parenting lessons don't stop toddler tantrums

[Ellen Forradalom]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080201/ts_afp/healthchildrenpsychologyparenting

PARIS (AFP) - A new study shows that parent training programmes fail to reduce behavioural problems in toddlers, suggesting that coaching on how to rear children may be a waste of time and money.

OK. FIRST of all, we're talking about toddlers here, not older kids who actually can be dealt with. That hardly suggests that good parenting practices are a waste of time and money.

Second of all, they obviously never heard of Harvard's Law, to wit: "Under the most rigorously controlled conditions of volume, temperature, pressure, and humidity, the organism will behave as it damn well pleases."

That one thought got me through my son's preschool years.

[MissMillie]

1. imagine that

you mean, before they reach the age of cognition, they can't be reasoned with?

go figure!

[Ellen Forradalom]

3. My dog trainer talked about the difference between training and management

We learned both techniques for teaching the dog and managing the dog.

Parents mostly manage toddlers, not train them.

[Orsino]

33. I guess the key is managing...

...not to kill them until they're trainable.

[Ellen Forradalom]

42. Truer words never spoken.

There's a reason God made them so cute.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I went on a field trip yesterday with approx. 20 special ed kids

to the grocery store and then to lunch. (It was a lot of fun, they're adorable)

Anyway, a small child was in the basket screaming his friggin' head off while his mother continued to shop. As she passed me, I said LOUDLY. "Interesting that the special education children aren't the ones misbehaving. I guess that is because their mothers would have removed them from the scene before they allowed them to disrupt an entire store".

I know. I'm a bitch.

[Shakespeare]

4. Why do you hate toddlers?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:loveya:

[RadiationTherapy]

5. Wow. You SAID that? Did it help or change anything?? nt

[Midlodemocrat]

6. No, but it made everyone around me who was pissed at her

happy. One woman gave me a thumbsup and another nodded her head vigorously.

My kids NEVER did that because the first time it happened, out we went.

Plus, I didn't take them to the store if they were hungry or tired. This woman was walking around like she was browsing at the mall.

If you HAVE to take a crying kid into the store, and this kid was SCREAMING, at least make a small effort to acknowledge how uncomfortable you are making other shoppers. Hurry a little bit.

[RadiationTherapy]

7. I was just testing to see if you had me on ignore...

I get surprised at comments sometimes, because I try to interact with humans in public as little as possible. I understand where you are coming from, though. My personal pet peeve out here in the land of sun and more sun (AZ) is parents who do not protect their babies from the sun. It is usually the fathers...and I will see this little, sweaty, red-faced thing crying or about to and I just want to pull the hat off of the parent (who seems to always be wearing one) and pop it on the kid's head.

I'm sure some kids hate hats, but you need an umbrella or blanket or something out here. Sunblock is not enough. Little bodies heat up and cool down so, so fast and I wish more parents would realize that. Many parents seem to consider their child cold or hot based on how the parent feels; by then the kid has been cold/hot for an hour! It's basic physics people!!

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Nope. You're not on ignore. Should you be?

:rofl:

[RadiationTherapy]

15. You know, I have so little interaction with the "big leaguers" that I figured I did something wrong.

I have had a few poorly expressed ideas...you never know.

Oh, and these pictures of my family:


my daughter


me!!


my brother


my love

[Midlodemocrat]

22. 'Big leaguers?' What does that mean?

[RadiationTherapy]

28. Just a term from my head. You know, the "cool" people.

I am sure it is just my perception and has little to do with reality. g.

[Midlodemocrat]

30. You're right.

it has little to do with reality. And, I'm not picking on you, it's just that the term 'cool kids' get used here as a term of derision when people who like each other post to each other.

[madinmaryland]

34. Enjoy your anonymity here while it lasts. Next thing you know, LynneSin will

be calling you (like me) "You fucking village idiots need to get over the Delaware Toll Booth thingie"

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

35. But she says it with love.

:rofl:

[madinmaryland]

37. Nice post, LynneSin!

:hi:

[RadiationTherapy]

38. My feet are firmly planted on the road to infamy; Radiation Therapy

coming to an arena near YOU and bringing the mind-boggling aural/visuals to hit your tongue like absinthe!

...and on I-Tunes, Rhapsody and Amazon this March 15th!

H'yaaaaa! Piggies!!! Hyaaaaahhhh!

[Midlodemocrat]

39. That just gave me a seizure.

[madinmaryland]

40. Wow! That's awesome, Dude!

[RadiationTherapy]

41. Thanks! Loads more at my website in my sigline...

I also make videos that are teh trippiest.

[Ellen Forradalom]

18. That falls under the rubric of management, not training

I kept my son out of stores as much as humanly possible.

It helped that my husband and I split shopping/child duties.

Some do not have that luxury. Some who do don't really think that far ahead.

[Midlodemocrat]

23. Oh, I know that. Been there myself with a sick/crying child and the

pharmacy located at the back of the store.

My beef with this woman was her callous indifference to both her child and the other shoppers. I know some mothers think that they are 'teaching their child a lesson' by not leaving, but in fact, they're not teaching them anything and just pissing people off.

[redqueen]

9. It takes a village!

:thumbsup:

[AngryAmish]

13. Remind me to stay away from you

I don't think I could stand the brilliant white light of your self righteousness.

[Midlodemocrat]

21. Yeah, because we all have the right

to make other people incredibly uncomfortable.

Get a grip. :eyes:

[MissMillie]

25. I wouldn't call you a bitch

And you know I think the WORLD of you.... but consider this, please.

I have always been a single mother.

I couldn't afford a sitter when I grocery shopped, so I brought my kid w/ me.

98 times out of 100, he was well behaved.

Those other 2 times? If he threw a tantrum, was I going to leave? No. I needed groceries. Am I just supposed to leave empty-handed? Go home w/o the milk, bread, eggs, etc?

I got in trouble on this board for saying this once, but I'm going to say it again.

No human being can control any other human being. We do the best to teach our kids proper behavior, but once in a while, they're going to do what they're going to do and that doesn't make us bad parents.

If I don't want to hear screaming kids when I shop, I shop in the evening, when all the toddlers are home in bed.

The only person in the world I have complete control over is me. So the solution to the problem is to change my own behavior, and not to worry about how to make other people behave the way I would like them to.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. My point about this woman was, she didn't make ANY effort

to control her child. Nor did she even pretend to hurry.

I've been there, too. Mr. travels a lot. But when I had a sick/crying child and the store's pharmacy was in the back of the store, I hustled in and out as quickly as I could, throwing milk, diapers, etc into the cart.

The Stepford Woman looked like she was browsing in Barnes and Noble.

[MissMillie]

27. Well.. again, I ask you to just consider...

There is a school of thought out there that ignoring the tantrum is the best way to get it to stop quickly.


I know lots of people who have made that claim.

To elicit a "conditioned response" in this instance, the mother may be training her child that such behavior will not get rewarded w/ any kind of attention.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Who knows? I sure as hell don't.

Do we know for sure that this woman wasn't doing what she thought was best?

I won't sit in judgment.

The only person I can control is me. I shop in the evening.

[Midlodemocrat]

29. Yes, you're right, but that theory is only partially correct.

If you are at home and the temper tantrum starts, the correct thing to do is ignore it. In public, the correct thing to do is to leave the area, put the child in his/her stroller or car seat or just stand outside in an isolated area and let them go to town.

Problem in public is that the child is getting reinforcement from strangers. You know, the well meaning types who say 'what's the matter, honey?' and things like that. The best outcome for a child having a tantrum, (and I should preface this that this child looked about 4, not 2) is that they realize that their screaming isn't going to get anyone's attention. Much like ignoring whining.

Hell, the first episode of TM's colic, I was in Brooks Drug and this elderly woman practically broke a leg trying to get to me and her and 'soothe' her.

[MissMillie]

44. I understand your view

and I wasn't trying to argue that either method is best. I was only trying to point out that what we often view as inaction may very well be just a different tactic that a parent is trying.

So, I tend to withhold judgment.

That's all.

[hunter]

10. Nothing stops toddler tantrums, but you can shorten the duration.

I've got strong arms -- when my kids were toddlers I'd simply pick them up and hope they didn't bite me.

[badgerpup]

11. I did something once...

Kid was screaming, and I asked mom (who was about to fly) if I could talk to her...mom said yes.
Told child that I knew she didn't mean to do this, but everyone in the store could hear her, and it was making them very unhappy.
Kid took a deep breath, and GOT CONTROL of her sobbing and pulled it together...think she was just tired and had Had Enough. Told her she'd done a good job, and thanked her.

Did I feel like a hero?
HELL NO...I felt like a total rat, manipulating a small child like that...even if it did get her to stop screaming and mom had said OK and was standing right there...

Glad I've got cats not human-type kids- I'd be a lousy parent.
You can't really spoil cats; they have an infinite capacity for entitlement.

[Arugula Latte]

14. I've got both kitties and kids. It's funny --

the sense of entitlement is absolutely adorable and charming in kitties and totally aggravating in humans. :)

[Ellen Forradalom]

17. You did something smart--you diverted the kid's attention.

Often parent and child are so wrapped up in their dynamic that outside interruption is the best thing that can happen.

[AngryOldDem]

12. I'm shocked, I tell you, absolutely shocked.

[Deja Q]

16. Okay, so let's not teach kids anything. Let a school of minnows raise them; see how they fare.

I call bullshit. :7

[MissMillie]

24. I don't think that's the point of the study, or the original post.

and Ellen is right when she distinguishes between training and management.

There is a fundamental truth that cognitive reason doesn't kick in until around age 5, 6 or 7.

Of course, there is such a thing as conditioned response, and there is always rote memorization (A,B,C's, etc) but the "if this, then that" stuff just doesn't work w/ children until cognition kicks in.

You can't reason w/ a 2 year old, they're simply not capable.

That doesn't mean there aren't other methods to use, but reasoning isn't one of them.

[Aristus]

19. "Okay, stop that now, or you'll get a time-out? Do you want that? Hmm?

Okay...stop it right NOW! That's another time-out right there. Do you want that? Another time-out? Hmm? Okay, now, that's THREE! How many time-outs do you want, anyway? Another one? Hmm? Four time-outs?"

Yeah, that's parental discipline... :eyes:

[ccinamon]

20. Midlo: Good for YOU!! I do the same type of thing when I'm out

In fact, Saturday night I told several 10yr olds running around that this was NOT a playground and they needed to settle down before someone got hurt....I was very angry and upset and used my "I'm not joking" mom voice (which has been known to scare adults as well)...we were at a dance recital and they were being a major pain in the butt to everyone in the back of the performance hall...of course, their parents were no where around.

Once, I even got in a shouting match with a clueless bitch in Joann's fabric store, she would NOT quiet her child, and I walked by and made the comment that it was very hard to concentrate with her screaming child, and maybe she should find something to quiet/calm her down (child was about 5 years old). Mother went off on me..I got snarky back, she left in tears. There was only 2 other customers in the store...don't know how they felt about the whole thing...don't much care. I'm tired of having to suffer because some parents don't care about teaching their kids proper behavior.

My kids got compliments from store staff when we were shopping...they knew the rules and if they didn't follow them, home we went. The first compliments they received on their behavior, they were 3 and 4 and we were in Penneys -- there were several rowdy kids near by and the sales clerk made a point of compliment my kids when the other mother was close enough to hear!!! LOL

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. My mom the former kindergarten teacher was of the firm opinion that

raising small children is a demanding job and requires constant monitoring to anticipate and ward off trouble. "Think two steps ahead of the kid," she always said.

I've seen several examples of her handling out-of-control small children (mostly relatives) in a gentle but authoritative way.

[Ellen Forradalom]

43. A wise woman, indeed.

It is a stressful and underappreciated job.

I had one kid and that's all the stress I can handle, thank you very much. My hats off to mothers of larger broods. I don't know how they do it without killing someone.

[MsKandice01]

32. My son is 4 1/2

And is extremely well-behaved...out in public and at home. He's very sweet and wants nothing more than to make me happy. In fact, when he gets any indication that I'm upset with him at all, which is rare these days, he just crumbles and I end up doing more consoling him than disciplining him.

When he was 2 though, he was hell on wheels. He was a violent little thing too...smacking, scratching, pulling hair, kicking, biting, etc. He had a speech delay and he would lash out at me when he got frustrated because I didn't understand him. His pediatrician told me children that age just don't have the capacity to control their emotions. By the time he was 3, the tantrums were gone and he's been a very happy, loving boy ever since.

Sometimes it really is just the age.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

36. I thought parenting classes were for parents, not kids.

Any parenting class that claims to eliminate tantrums is pure snake oil.

I've never spent money on a class; but I have read books and articles and watched TV shows in search of info that I could find helpful. And I think I learned a lot from it. Probably the most helpful thing I learned was how to step outside my kid's rough moments instead of becoming emotionally invested in them. As a result, my kids' tantrums were quicker to pass, because I could really be there for them instead of having to tend to my own emotionally distraught state.