Any graphic designers or other folks who do work for friends and family? I need help!

[grace0418]

Okay, I have a situation and I'm looking for some input from you all. I've been helping my actor/director/musician brother whenever he needs a cd cover or poster or whatever for years. He's my brother and I'm happy to do it. He never has much money, but he's always a very easy client and pays me back in other ways so that's not an issue.

He's collaborating with a woman in another state on a new play and has commissioned me to design the poster and cd cover. They are paying a small sum of money but I would've done it pro bono for him. The problem is that he doesn't trust his own design sense (which makes him a very easy client when he and I are working one on one), so his writing partner has taken on the roll of decision-maker for the show's aesthetic. And, quite frankly, she's a pain in the ass. She knows just enough to throw out some design buzzwords but not enough to actually understand what any of it means. The poster has been through 8+ permutations, all of which my brother liked just fine. His partner, however, keeps wanting to frankenstein completely disparate elements of the different versions together into some kind of crappy, lunatic, multi-fonted design collage. Which, at this point, I wouldn't even care about any more if she would only PICK ONE. I told her, nicely, when I sent her versions 7 & 8 that I needed to move onto other projects so I hoped that one of these might work for her. Now I hear that "she has a few more suggestions" for me that she will be emailing me sometime soon. My brother knows how I feel and seems to sympathize but is still letting her call the shots.

So, do I:

a. tell her I won't be making any more changes and she'll have to pick between versions 1-8 or find another designer

b. tell her that I will make version 9 but that's it

c. keep making changes because he's my brother and I don't want to screw him over

d. make my brother deal with it

e. suggest that maybe my design style is not what she has in mind and that she shouldn't feel obligated to retain my services just because I'm her partner's sister

f. some other option I hadn't considered

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

[KitchenWitch]

1. I would say optioin E. But speak to your brother beforehand so he does not feel betrayed.

[quip]

5. As another graphic designer, I concur wholeheartedly with KitchenWitch's advice

Good luck. (Good advice, KW!) :hi:

[grace0418]

7. Thanks temeah!

My friend said when she suggests referring clients to another designer they quickly change their tune because they don't want to start all over. So that may do the trick.

[grace0418]

6. I've been leaning towards that.

Thanks!

[Auggie]

2. From one designer to another:

I suggest Option A, or, tell her you'll do an option 9 for more money. Let her put it where her mouth is.

If that fails, then I suggest Option E.

My credentials: I've been in the ad business for 28 years, 14 as a freelancer.

[grace0418]

8. I just don't feel good taking more money from my brother. I hate taking any

money from him at all, really. He was there for me in a lot of tough situations and is having a hard time financially right now. But I may lean towards E or A. Thanks for the advice!

:hi:

[bif]

24. I second that

And I've been in advertising since 1980.Sometimes the KMAs are the biggest pains.

[skater314159]

3. I would tell your brother

that she is a total pain in the ass, and that she is taking advantage of you both. I think you have already done more than enough to accomidate someone who "knows just enough to throw out some design buzzwords but not enough to actually understand what any of it means". But how do you tell someone, especially your brother, this? Well, it can be touchy, but here is my advise:

I would first affirm your brother's sense of aesthetics, and let him know that he is more than competent to decide what design he likes for himself. Then, tell your brother, politely but firmly, that it is HIS cd/project and his partner is trying to take it over - like a bad "stage parent" or something... this may upset him, but tell him that it is straining YOUR relationship with him, and that you don't want this to end you guys' relationship.

Also explain that you would really like to do this for him, but that if it continues like this, you will have to recommend he go to another designer. Gently remind him that you have produced EIGHT different designs, all of which he liked, but that SHE is the one who shot them down. Once again, just tell him what you stated in your letter... he is your brother, so he should hear the stress, strain, and frustration in your voice as you tell him. Be sure to tell him that you really care about his project, and that you KNOW this cd is a dream of his, and that you dont want his dream to be destoryed because of others who might'nt wish him the best.

Well, I hope that helps!
:hippie:
skater314159

[grace0418]

9. Thanks skater314159.

I don't know if she's taking advantage of him or not. Maybe they made this decision jointly and he just failed to mention to me that she would be calling the shots. I don't know. I do know she has some credentials that are getting them the financial backing for the show, so he may feel indebted to her in that respect. Anyway, it's not so bad that it would ever end my relationship with my brother. She's just a pain in the ass. I did reply to his email with your advice in mind. So thank you.

:hi:

[atomic-fly]

4. tough one...e

I've done similar stuff for a in law. Bottom line, make sure you are happy with it.


If your stressing, I'd say e.

If not, look at it as a very bad client and try to learn from it.
Perhaps steer her in your direction (that is a skill also).


I meant to say e also.

[grace0418]

11. You're right, it's a skill I have yet to master.

One version was actually an attempt to show her *exactly* what she had requested and just how bad it would look, along with my suggested remedy. She seemed to understand her ideas wouldn't work, but that didn't stop her from second-guessing me.

Thanks!

[grace0418]

13. By the way, your sig line is one of my favorite movie quotes ever!

:)

[democracyindanger]

10. Bad client.

FWIW, I'm a creative freelancer, and I'd do the ninth version--only because you haven't given an ultimatum yet--and tell the woman that you can't spend any more time on it. You did it partially as a favor for your brother but it's reached a point where you've got to move on to projects that you've been delaying for this.

If the project calls for it, I put out front the number of revision rounds in the contract. It's important to set limits, and let the client know that after a certain point they have to pay more. Seven or eight rounds of revisions is insane, IMO. I give 'em two.

[grace0418]

12. Yes, my regular clients get a set number of revisions (I usually do three). I fell prey to the fact

that my brother has never been anything but the easiest client imaginable until now. I assumed he would be calling the shots despite having this collaborator and I never have a contract for my work with him. I guess from now on I will ask him point blank if anyone else will be involved with the project before I get started.

Yes, she's definitely a bad client. I should've figured that out when she asked if my measly design fee would also include the cost of printing the posters and cd covers. :eyes: Again, for my brother, I would do the work for free but good grief. Some people think the world should cater to their whims.

Anyway, thanks!

[Coyote_Bandit]

14. Ummmmm

Your brother does have some responsibility to step forward and address this situation. Talk to him and give him the opportuity to do so. Explain your concerns and frustrations in a way that is also sensitive to his concerns. Compare your efforts in this situation to those in the past so he knows how much additional effort you have put ito this venture.

You might find that he has similar frustrations with his partner. Usually folks that are hard to please are not selectively difficult - they are picky about everything. Your brother may be in a situation where his own efforts are never good enough to satisfy.

You need to tell your brother very firmly that you have done the work contracted EIGHT times and that further modifications will detract from your ability to complete work for other paying clients. Indicate that you are willing to continue making modifications requested but will require additional compensation if those changes require more than a clearly stated token investment of time, effort and resources. Offer to return any monies paid if they opt not to use your work and go to another designer.

Put your brother and his partner in a position where they have to choose (1) one of the eight permutations, (2) very minimal modifications to one of those permutations, (3) paying additional monies for your services (and define how much you can invest in time and resources for that sum) or (4) to find another designer.

You might also consider limiting future communications and dealing directly with your brother rather than his partner. This assures that he has meaningful input in the design and does not feel excluded. He is less likely to exploit you than his partner. It also puts him in the position where he is aware of your efforts on his behalf - and lessens the possibility of a nasty exchange with his partner.

[grace0418]

18. Thanks. I think this partnership is a one-time deal (thankfully) so my brother

and I will go back to our former working relationship in the future. I also believe this woman is the one who's credentials got the backing (grant) they needed for this show, which is probably why my brother is deferring to her. So I may have to continue communicating to her, I will just have to put my foot down. I think I may end up doing a combination of "hey, I have to move onto other projects so you need to pick one NOW" and "if my designs aren't working for you, then you need to find another designer"- all said more diplomatically that of course. :)

Thank again. You have no idea how much this has helped me.

[DS1]

15. a nice moody photograph, with some correctly placed words in the right font should do

plenty of successful cd covers with that formula

[grace0418]

19. I have as well. This is a cd cover (and poster) for a staged musical though, so it is

a bit more complicated than a regular music cd.

[radfringe]

16. send her a bill

equal to the amount you have previously agreed to and then ask her for an advance against estimated additional hours to make all those changes

usually when you start talking $$$$ - they make decisions real fast

if you feel weird about doing that then I would go with option E or F

[grace0418]

20. So far I think the consensus (here, and from all my designer friends) is

to tell her I'm done making changes, I'm going to have to start charging her by the hour, and if she doesn't like any of the designs we've already done then she needs to find a new designer. So I think you are right on the money. Thank you! :hi:

[Throd]

17. I start with two options, and two revisions after an option is chosen

After that, the meter is running at an hourly rate. I am always willing to be flexible if the client is somebody who is easy to work with. This is more to protect myself from doing countless chickenshit revisions for clueless people with delusions of "design director".

Once they know the meter is running you'll be amazed with how content they become with your design.

[grace0418]

21. Oh I know, that's pretty much my standard operating procedure with clients. Depending on the

project (i.e how complicated the project is, how much money I stand to make on the project, and how tightly focused my initial direction is) I will start with anywhere from 2-4 initial concepts. Then I allow for two rounds of revisions to one of those concepts. Beyond that is hourly.

I just never work that way with my brother and didn't know at the time that his partner would be calling the shots. If I had, I would've presented my usual contract. That's my fault (well, a little bit my brother's for not telling me in advance).

Thanks!

[Akoto]

22. Speaking of, I need a graphic designer!

I really need a custom logo for my site, but man, so many companies offering services at so many different prices. It's a little overwhelming. :)

[grace0418]

23. LOL! Well, I have my hands full at the moment but it looks like we have a lot of

designers around here. If you still need some quotes, I know a lot of designers so let me know.

[China_cat]

25. Sorry, hadn't read the whole thread. deleting reply.

[grace0418]

27. I can always use more input.

Thanks though! :hi:

[China_cat]

29. I was just going to mention contracts

but I see you got plenty of advice on that score.

I was thinking later though that my family used to volunteer my services to third parties and then act like I was doing it for them. Is it possible that this is what's happened here? In a discussion on the budget the amount a graphic designer would cost was being discussed and your brother said 'hey, my sister's a graphic artist, she'd do a good job and probably do it for us real cheap'. Then he asked you without telling you that he didn't really have any control?

[grace0418]

30. I don't think he's that sneaky, at least I hope not. What did you do when that happened?

I know he genuinely digs my work or he wouldn't recommend me, because he has other designers he could hire. I honestly think he expected his partner to work the way he does. He generally trusts people to do what they've been hired to do and doesn't micromanage. I think he was a bit surprised by her behavior as well, but because she secured their grant to fund the project (they both applied for grants but hers was the only one approved), he defers to her. I do wish he'd made that more clear, but I don't think it was intentional on his part. I would be really mad at him if it was, and I'd have to tell mom. ;)

[China_cat]

31. I finally got fed up and just started saying no

to anything my family asked and told them that they were the one who had to explain to whoever they volunteered my services to just why it wouldn't be happening.

The only ones I don't turn down...and who have never asked me to do something for somebody else (unless it was for a gift)...are the kids. They've always been straight up with me.

I don't think of it as 'sneaky'...just as getting carried away with the enthusiasm of the moment, a desire to help whatever they're involved in, a chance to shine by reflection of a family member's accomplishments (even when you have your own, you can't help but be proud of a sibling's abilities and want to show them off to others) and a true belief that family will be happy to honor requests without even thinking about the fact that what they're asking might be an imposition.

Think about it. You don't want to disappoint your brother, you don't want to charge him but you'd show any other customer the door. He knows this but I don't for a minute think it's deliberate or calculated. Just one of those things that happen when family members are close.

[Orsino]

26. E is a nice, polite way to give her the brush-off...

...while making it her idea.

[grace0418]

28. You're right.

Hopefully it will just kick her butt into gear, but if she agrees to look elsewhere then that saves me some aggravation. Thanks!