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Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:14 PM
Original message
Look what Jesus says about rich people:
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 12:26 PM by Edge
Luke 18:25--"Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."--New International Version.

I found that kinda cool...I thought I'd share. :)

Edit: Here's where it's from:

Here it is, from The Rich Ruler, Luke 18:18-30--

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother."
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, but he meant "other" rich people...not rich Republicans....
:eyes:

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Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Heee...I think he means rich Republicans...
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 12:22 PM by Edge
that's the way I see it. :D

Here it is, from The Rich Ruler, Luke 18:18-30--

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother."
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, OK, so he means everyone...
It appears all who call themselves Christian have not gotten the message. Maybe they need to be smote! :-)
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, but by "camel" he means "thick piece of thread"
It was a mistranslation, it's just tough for rich people going to heaven, not impossible.

At least this is what the fundie told me when I told her Jesus thinks rich people are evil and they're going to go to hell.
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Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Look who told you...a fundie. n/t
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I was told this in school (christian school all growing up)
Cities in Egypt in that day had walls around them. They had entrances that were for camels to come through. The were called the eye of a needle because of their shape. But for the camel to go through, everythign had to be taken off and the camel had to almost crawl through.

In other words, to get into Heaven, a rich person had to be willing to remove everything (lose all possessions) and humble him or herself enough to crawl.

I think that is at least in line with biblical teachings although I can't say if it is historically true.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Another definition of "the eye of the needle"
City walls often had a small door located somewhat away from the main gates. this was called the "eye of the needle". Picture a doorway so thin you had to turn sideways to go through and you'll get the picture.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Once again
My slow typing skills mean that someone beat me to posting.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. "you'll get the picture" ... like the weight-challenged couldn't get in?
I resemble that appearance

thanks for that tidbit ... I had not heard that expression used that way ... walls and gates were big things back then ... makes sense ...
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I heard that too
It still means that the camel needs to be unloaded just as the rich man needs to unload his wealth.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, well they skip over the part where Jesus teaches us how to pray
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Roy Moore obviously never saw this verse

:shrug:
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Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Neither has Pat Robertson.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Those parts have been redacted...
Ditto with thing about not praying in public...

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I have lots more pro-socialism scripture
on my website if you'd like to see some. :)
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AirConditionedGypsie Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. So what should
the Clinton's do with their multi-million dollar book advances?

Give it all back?
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. somebody's been exposed
I was wondering how long it would take for them to come.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It's a legitimate question
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 01:12 PM by Rabrrrrrr
if we're going to despise the rich (and I don't, BTW, since I think wealth is as neutrally moral as poverty), then we have to despise ALL the rich.

So in this case, it's a fair question - what about the Clintons? What about George Soros? What about Ted Turner?

As others have pointed out, "eye of the needle" is a doorway.

And as no one else has pointed out, Jesus' response is directed solely toward the person asking it. He asked, "What must *I* do?" and Jesus answered, "*YOU* must...."

Jesus is telling the guy specifically to give up his wealth; but Jesus is saying to us, through this story, that we need to give up whatever we cling to. It's not wealth, or money, that is sinful - it's the LOVE of wealth and money, and what we do or do not with it.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I agree. it applies equally.
When I was a child I did childish things. The same rule applies.

I was just waiting for him to go on a Clinton penis rant...lol :)
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AirConditionedGypsie Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I think that materialism
is a TWO party issue.

There is something wrong when we say, "Their rich people are bad" while we pretend our own don't exist.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You could make a case for it.
But most of "our" rich at the very least have some empathy for the rest of us below. Not so on the other side. As Rabrrrr said, It is the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. And That's Only the Tip of the Iceberg
If you can find it, read "The Politics of Jesus" by Edward Yoder, who is a Menonnite.

He goes through the gospel of Luke chapter by chapter and discusses the social and political implications of everything Jesus says. The gospels will never seem the same again. The rich do not come off very well.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Don't forget the "tax cut" imposed by the Pharoah (according to
Joseph)

Where, in preparation for the 7 years of famine, the Pharoah raised the taxes to 20 percent (one fifth!).

Rush and company continually try to spin this as a tax CUT!
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
20. That's why the Repubs are pushing the...
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 02:00 PM by CanuckAmok
"Needle-Eye Enlargement Act (NEEA)" throgh Congress, along with the attached "Camel Area Reduction Bill (CARB)".

Rich folks only use the Bible to advance their cause. Hadn't you noticed?
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. I believe this is something put into the bible to keep the poor poor...
I don't trust that man (King James) actually translated this book of what is supposed to be God's words and not add stuff that he thought would help him keep his power and his opinions around for centuries. I believe in God, but this book, I have a really hard time with because of all the contradictions, the control, and the way it's so misinterpretted.
Duckie
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. You shouldn't take that literally
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 07:16 PM by Kamika
Jesus didn't mean that if you are rich you have to give it all away or you'll go to hell even if you've been mother Theresa..

It's more that if you are rich you should still CARE about your fellow man.


If you'd take everything in the bible literally you'd go crazy
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. literalism is for people with no imagination
Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 07:28 PM by Rabrrrrrr
IMO. And you're spot on - to try to take everything literally SHOULD drive one insane, and I think we see taht happen fairly often. And trying to take everything literally makes an idol out of the scritural text, which is sinful.

In my opinion, as one who has seriously studied Scripture, faithful life embraces the discontinuities, the contradictions, and the ambiguity, and makes the most reasoned response to that that one can. That is to say, we approach God with our imaginations - with our minds open, our hearts open. Which is to say, as I see it, that we are to love God with all our hearts, and all our minds, and all our souls, and love our neighbor as ourselves. That's what it really boils down to. And within that is letting God be God, whatever God wants to be, instead of trying to place God into a box (e.g., "God hates fags" or "God is a republican" or "God doesn't want women leaders in His Church").


It is easier for a Borg to enter heaven than it is for a religiously rightwing fundamentalist Biblically-wife-beating Christian freeper. :evilgrin:
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. Kewl! And much like the passages that denounce greed,
the pastors and clergymen of churches in wealthy neighborhoods are sure to revise the Bible or never speaketh of these passages.

Hey, religion has been perverted all throughout humankind's history. Sodom and Gomorrah spoke for itself; for its original meaning was of the townspeople being uncivil and selfish (like circa 2004 America). Homosexuality had nothing to do with it... until some creeps came in and rewrote it to further their political aspirations.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. and the rest about
feeding me when I was hungry, visiting me while i was in prison, clothing me when i was cold. Seems the new take doesn't take that into account, but they sure do go to the tithe passage enough. WWJD the shirt said as the pastor got out of his lexus suv to walk to his home in the gated community. wwJd? He'd kick his ass outa the church is what he would do.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ok, here goes...
This is a cut and paste from an email I put together for a good friend who wondered why I cared for the dregs of society. Warning, it is LONG:

--------------------
If the right-wingers really studied the matter, they'd find they have more in common with Muhammad than with Jesus. Muhammad was a merchant, a businessman and entrepreneur - a capitalist. Before Jesus walked off his job, he was a carpenter, a common laborer - and with his talk of brotherhood, no doubt would have been a union man.

He hung out with the dregs of society: the poor, prostitutes, tax collectors, and finally thieves. Not exactly the kind of person to whom you would entrust your most precious and eternal possession: your stock portfolio.

Jesus revealed his anti-business agenda as soon as he threw the money-changers out of the temple. To the orthodox for whom taxation is government organized theft, Jesus' clear advocacy of paying taxes by "rendering unto Caesar" is a complete abomination. Scholars are still divided over whether the raising of Lazarus was to escape the death tax or an intent to pay it twice.

--------------------

Jesus mollycoddled the poor and went out of his way to condemn the rich. His warning that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to get into heaven was typical socialist blather. The affluent have had to devote themselves to breeding smaller camels and building larger needles ever since.

------------------
Jesus' purpose in life was to do the will of His heavenly Father. Wherever He went, He brought goodness. He never hurt or injured anyone, although He did get angry at others who did wrong. He called self-righteous church-going people vipers and once turned over tables in the temple where money-changers were taking advantage of the people.

Jesus was friends with the outcast of society—sinners. He reached out to the publicans, thieves, prostitutes. He never scorned anyone. He knew what was in the heart of a man (or woman). Just because they were religious did not mean that they knew God.

----------------------

Jesus challenged the Pharisees’ purity system by almost everything he did. It’s no coincidence that there are so many stories about Jesus getting into the everyday dirt and grit of life. Touching lepers, being touched by a hemorrhaging woman. Forgiving an adulteress. Going into an unclean graveyard to cast out demons and send them into a herd of unclean pigs. Eating with outcasts like tax collectors and prostitutes, and drunkards — all of those people at the very bottom of the Who’s Who of the Impure.

So Jesus came to confront the heart of this system — the temple — by driving out the money-changers and the sacrificial animal dealers; by exposing the profits and the kickbacks that the temple elite received “under the table” when he said that the temple authorities had turned his Father’s house into a “den of robbers,” as it’s recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

----------------------

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments'" (Matthew 22:37-40, emphasis mine).

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

The counterfeit Christ and his followers have long lists of "do's and don't's" that are preached as "Gospel." And everyone who doesn't subscribe to their legalistic list are condemned. We see them protesting with signs that read "God hates fags," "God hates baby-killers," and "God hates !"

But the genuine Jesus has just two laws: love God and love people. True followers of Jesus may not agree with the lifestyles and opinions of everyone (in fact, they shouldn't), but they will be the first to show compassion to those they disagree with. That's why Jesus hung out with drunks, prostitutes, "tax collectors," and "sinners." He loved people. He didn't love all their actions--and didn't join them in all their behaviors--but He showed them that he loved them. True followers of Jesus are not preaching against people with addictions; they are volunteering at rehabilitation programs at local shelters. They're not bombing abortion clinics; they're working in the pro-life Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

--------------------------

Jesus also had withering words for the wealthy who oppressed--or simply ignored --the poor.

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort" (Luke 6:20, 24).

Genuine followers of Jesus have a sense of joy and satisfaction in who they are--at whatever "level" on the social or ecclesiastical ladder they may find themselves.

Jesus said, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11).

----------------------------

5. His earthly father was a carpenter, a humble hewer of wood with whom He lived and laboured, conforming to our human ways of life, custom, language and living that He might understand and love us better and communicate with us on the lowly level of our own limited human understanding!--He learned to LOVE Mankind. He saw their suffering and had great compassion on them, longing to not only heal their sick and broken bodies, but also to save their immortal spirits!

6. When the time came and He began his life's work, He went about everywhere doing good.--Helping people, loving children, healing heartaches, strengthening tired bodies, saving whom He could. He not PREACHED His message, but He LIVED it amongst us. He not only ministered to their spiritual needs, but He spent a great deal of time ministering to their physical and material needs, miraculously healing them when they were sick, feeding them when they were hungry and sharing His life and His Love!

7. He was so simple and His religion was so simple that He said you must become as a little CHILD to receive it! He didn't preach Temple worship, He didn't preach going to synagogue nor going to church, He didn't preach any complicated ceremonies or difficult rules.--All he did was preach LOVE and show Love, as He strove to lead God's children into the True Kingdom of God, whose only laws are to "love the Lord with all thy heart" and "love thy neighbour as thyself".

8. He had very little to do with the high-fallutin', rich-robed, churchy scribes, pharisees and hypocrites--the religious leaders of that day--except when they insisted on annoying Him with their critical questions. Then He would sock it to them, publicly exposing them as the "blind leaders of the blind" that they were, even telling them that they were like white-washed SEPULCHRES, which indeed appear beautiful, clean and holy on the OUTSIDE, but WITHIN are full of rottenness, corruption and stinking dead men's bones!

9. He was not a mere religious reformer, He was a REVOLUTIONARY! He refused to compromise with the false religious system, but rather worked totally OUTSIDE of it, reaching and sharing His Love with the poor and common folk who had long ago abandoned and been abandoned by organised religion. He never went into any bar with whip in hand, breaking up the bottles and throwing out the bartender. Nor did He ever enter any brothel, beating up the poor girls, overturning their beds and throwing the men out the window.--But He DID make a whip, go into their big beautiful religious Temple, overturn the tables, spill out the money and drive the money-mad money-changers out of the church, condemning them for turning what was supposed to be a house of prayer into a den of thieves!

10. He made Himself of no reputation, and was a companion of drunks and prostitutes, publicans and sinners, the outcasts and downtrodden of society. He even told them that they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven before the so-called "good" people, the self-righteous and religious leaders who re jected Him and His simple Message of Love. The power of His Love and of His appeal was so great and gave such great faith to the sincere truth-seekers that they didn't hesitate to drop everything they had and forsake all immediately to become His full-time followers!

----------------------------

From Matthew 25:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are
blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for
you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life."
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. Jesus says Donate to DU
See - the grovelbot will show up now
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. OMG! You're a prophet!!
Tell me who else I should send money to, O Wise One!!
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Me
Send money to me.

All of your money
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:20 PM
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
32. Not all wealthy people
deserve to go to hell, it depends on what you do with the money. :think:
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