Travel Mercies (Serious request for lounge opinion)

[HERVEPA]

I'd like some (at lest semi-) serious lounge opinions on this.
I am an atheist, and I'm dating a Quaker, who is liberal.
However, I worry about the the religion aspects, as she sometimes signs her e-mail with "Blessings,"
and in a recent note when I was going on vacation wished me "Travel Mercies" on my trip.
Having looked up the term, I'm feeling kind of funny about this.

[supernova]

1. What do you want to know?

I'm not quaker; but I am considering joining them.

[HERVEPA]

2. I didn't explain well, I guess, but

what makes me uncomfortable about this is that she knows I am an atheist, and her including this in an e-mail to me, especially in the subject line, but really at all, is rather uncomfortable for me. Her wishing it privately herself for me is one thing, but "sending" it to me is where I have difficulty.

From what I have been able to find on the internet, it seems she is invoking "god" to take care of me in some way.

Again, thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.

[supernova]

3. If you don't care about God,

why would it bother you what she signs off with? Leave it as a nice sentiment. edit: My guess is she says this or a varient of it to everyone she cares about. I often say "Have a safe trip." because I want them to have a good time and return home safely.

:shrug:

FWIW, as with many denoms, there are two flavors of Quakers. One is very liberal, recognizing an inner light in everyone. The service is basically an hour of silent group meditation interspersed by whatever heartfelt subject someone might want to speak about. Often, no one speaks. They aren't fundamentalists and they don't proselytize. Then there are more conservative quakers who have a more traditional worship service with a minister and subscribe to a more conservative view of theology. Which is she? (If you know what kind of "meeting" she goes to, you'll know.)

OTOH, if her expressing even that small that part of herself really bothers you, perhaps that is a dealbreaker for you.

edit2: Less Likely, but possible -Traveling Mercies is also the name of a famous book by Anne Lamott.

[HERVEPA]

6. Thanks Supernova

We've talked enough that i know she is part of the liberal Quakers, very much so.

[supernova]

8. If this really bothers you

consider talking to trof. Not only is he a big old sweetheart but he's a nonbeliever and Mrs Trof is a believer. Obviously they've figured out a way to make it work. ;-) He might have some useful pointers.

[FloridaJudy]

26. That is a great book!

I recommend it to all my friends. Lamott is one of the funniest human beings on the planet. If anyone told me I'd be laughing my butt off at a description of how someone found Jesus and got sober (in that order), I'd have responded "Yeah. Right", in a sarcastic voice.

But you don't have to be a Christian to appreciate Lamott's quirky world view. The kind of struggles she describes with such brio are universal, and all too human.

[quip]

5. What's wrong with that? She wants (her) God to take care of you!

It is a sign of affection. So you don't believe in God. Then what's the big deal? SHE DOES. If that bothers you so much, then you should maybe think about finding a more like-minded person to date.

[HERVEPA]

10. Her believing in god does not bother me,

Including that in the note, as subject, feels funny. Knowing her being religious, in the reverse situation, I would not include anything indicating her having a safe trip was in the hands of randomness.

[quip]

13. It's not analogous. For religious people, that is the norm. You should respect it.

She believes in SOMETHING; you believe in NOTHING. But you must, out of respect, assume that there IS something for her sake. It's about HER, not YOU. If you can't make that jump, then I think that there might be problems.

[HERVEPA]

14. Don't quite understand your point, temeah

Do you mean I should act as if I believe in something or just accept the fact that she does?
I don't really believe in any concept of god, unless you include the feeling of awe at the beauty in the world and the universe. But for me, there's no need to attribute that to anything god-like or spiritual to appreciate it.

[quip]

18. I'm not advocating dishonesty. I'm saying that when she invokes God, accept it as

if it were true. That doesn't mean that YOU have to believe it. Just respect her beliefs when they come up. It might appear as if you believe them, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. It's just being polite and civil. Does that make sense?

[HERVEPA]

19. Sort of makes sense. Thanks

[China_cat]

15. Tell her. Quakers are pretty cool about stuff like that.

I'm one. And an atheist. And nobody in any Meeting I've ever attended has ever given me grief about that fact. Quakers run the gamut from bible believing (although I've yet to run into a fundy fanatic Quaker) to atheist. I know of Jewish Quakers, Buddhist Quakers, etc. We're a pretty accepting bunch. You have to be to be able sit in silence for an hour.

When I've asked 'why couldn't that still small voice of god just be your own internal thoughts?' I've always gotten the answer 'it could very well be'.

What she is invoking is what she sees as that part of god within you...in other words, for you to take care of yourself. It's an old term, mainly used by birthright Quakers.

[HERVEPA]

16. Thanks for your thoughts, China_cat. I appreciate them. (nt)

[LynneSin]

4. Quakers are extremely liberal - you'll survive

:D

[HERVEPA]

7. Thanks LynneSin

I guess having been in a long marriage where religion was a big issue, I tend to be wary of anything that perhaps even remotely feels like religion being forced on me.

[LynneSin]

9. Well Quakers have some funny habits but I can tell you one thing

They'll be working their asses off if the draft comes around. If you go to Quaker.org you'll see they have information on conscious objectors and how to get that status.

You're in the Philly area - does she go to service at the Quaker Meeting house on Arch & 16th? Even if you're an athiest I highly recommend going to a Quaker service - definately something to enjoy. East coast Quakers do not have normal services you'd find in other religious programs. Quakers just sit there for an hour and if you feel so inspired to speak you'll stand up and say something.

[supernova]

11. They are deadly serious about peace/justice

issues.

Which is why I'm seriously considering joining them. :-) There's a Quaker Meeting in Chapel Hill Iike a whole lot.

[HERVEPA]

12. She's in the Suburbs, and I've been to 2 Quaker memorial services,

They are nice, and I know (the non-Nixon type) Quakers are good people.
In any case, a discussion with her is certainly in order to deal with this up-front to determine whether I can deal with it long-term in a manner not hurtful to her and our relationship.

[China_cat]

17. I think you'll find that the Quaker committment

to justice, equality, non-violence, etc, will more than outweigh the religious aspects. Ask to borrow her copy of Faith and Practice and read the queries. You'll be surprised that very few (if any, depending on the edition) even touch on the aspect of belief.

The concerns are with human dignity, stewardship of the earth, not using more than you're entitled to, working toward a peaceful society.

It gives the non-believer in gods a way to work in concert for the values we DO believe in.

[GirlinContempt]

20. I don't quite understand why you would feel funny.

It's not like she said it while tying you up and dragging you to church. That would be an issue.

People that care about you who believe in God sometimes just say stuff like that. I don't think it means "I believe in God, YOU MUST TOO! I'm using my secret voodoo powers to infuse this email with mind control spores so you will be forced to love god too!". I think it means that she cares about you and is wishing you well in her own way. People who believe in God aren't offended when I wish them well without God or religion being involved, why should it matter the other way around?

My Grandmother says she'll pray for me when something is hard or going wrong in my life. Friends, coworkers, others have said it too. I take it to mean "I care about you and am sorry things are rough. This is my way of showing you I care, because this is what I believe".

It's a nice thing.

If you can't deal with the one line in an email, maybe you'd be better to break it off with her. Because, it sounds like her faith is an issue for you.

[HERVEPA]

23. Thanks for for your thoughts, GirlinContempt

I may be oversensitive, as I escort for Planned Parenthood, and am constantly told by the anti's that they will pray for me.

[GirlinContempt]

24. Well, you need to

differentiate between people who are clearly saying it because they're upset with you, and people who're saying it because they care about you.

Some people suck, religion or no religion :)

[quip]

25. Well put!

It's the same dealing with fellow Christians as well. The dirty little secret is that, oftens times, I have more in common theologically with an agnostic than I do with some Christians! I have MAJOR differences with some Christians. So what? I don't dwell on those differences or go out of my way to point them out. I try to focus on the similarities, which invariably boil down to how we treat our neighbors. :hi:

[supernova]

29. S&M Quakers!!

"It's not like she said it while tying you up and dragging you to church. That would be an issue."


:rofl: :rofl:

That struck me as funnier than it probably should be.


:rofl: :rofl:

[quip]

32. Sounds like a new song title for Spinal Cap! DuStrange, are you getting this????

:rofl:

[ghostsofgiants]

21. You have got to be kidding me.

[HERVEPA]

22. No, I'm not.

Better to be sure now rather than problems later.

[theredpen]

27. Respecting one anothers' spiritual beleifs is really important

It doesn't really matter whether ones personal viewpoint is described as "atheist" or "liberal Quaker."

I think that some of the other posters are correct that your SO will likely respect whatever boundaries you set, and I'm sure you could bring yourself to allow her to continue with her path. The real question is, where is the underlying respect? I tell Christians that I'll pray for them, but I tell atheists that they will "be in my thoughts" or that "I will hope for the best." Telling an atheist that you will pray for them is, to me, like buying a hamburger for a Hindu — as nice a gesture as it might be in my culture, there's an implicit insult in theirs that is ultimate a lack of respect on my part.

I think you are right to be concerned. Even if you reach some sort of agreement to behave in ways that don't step on each other's feelings and boundaries, is there underlying respect, or is this just warehousing the issue? Do you really respect her ways, or do you just tolerate them because they're liberal? What about vice versa? If this is a relationship that you would like to become serious and long-term, this could be a stone in your shoe.

Before you jump ship, though, you might want to look into some information on non-theistic Christianity — a middle ground between mainstream Christianity and outright atheism. The leader in this area of thought is Bishop Shelby Spong who advocates what he calls his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong#New_Reformation">New Reformation. If you want to get into more detail, I recommend http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Non-Religious-John-Shelby-Spong/dp/0060778415/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203095636&sr=8-1">Jesus for the Non-Religious (also by Spong). You might find that you can share an appreciation of Christianity without feeling like you have to buy into ideas that, as an atheist, you find — frankly — silly.

Just a suggestion.

[supernova]

30. Excellent post

You said things that I kinda danced around.

:thumbsup:

Mutual Respect IS the key.

[GirlinContempt]

31. The only thing I would disagree with, as an athiest, personally

is this: "Telling an atheist that you will pray for them is, to me, like buying a hamburger for a Hindu — as nice a gesture as it might be in my culture, there's an implicit insult in theirs that is ultimate a lack of respect on my part."

I don't consider being told that someone is praying for me an insult, unless it is said in such a way. For instance, last week, my grandmother said "I'll be praying for you" due to my current health issues. She knows I am an atheist, but it wasn't an insult in any way, or disrespectful.

If, however, she had said: "What?! You don't believe in god?? You're going to hell, Aly, I'll pray for you" I might feel a little offended.

[HERVEPA]

33. You Hit It, "theredpen"!

Said what I was trying to say. The Hindu/hamburger thing is kind of what I was getting at.
I'll need to think about this more and see what comes from a discussion when I explain that why it bother me.

[qb]

28. I used to be offended when people would "bless" me or say I'm included in their prayers.

I eventually decided to accept that that is the language of their religion and that it translates into general thoughtfulness and caring. It would be different if the words were intended to manipulate you in some way, but I don't think that is the case.

I appreciate the Quakers. It is the "Quaker Oath", or oath in lieu of swearing, that allows me to serve on a jury or testify in court without dishonestly professing belief in a deity. Atheists in Texas have been held in contempt of court for refusing to "swear to God".

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-716456/Remembering-when-from-the-November.html

[pitohui]

34. most of this advice is good in general but you say you are dating

i agree with others who say blow it off, and as a general rule i make no fuss about people who pray for me or bless me, but since you are dating and it's clear that you don't share what is obviously very important to her...that's where your funny feeling of unease is coming in and i don't think it's unjustified

i've been in relationships with strong believers before and it never gets any more tolerable, it just gets more annoying over time, it's hard to respect the intelligence of someone who believes in the invisible cloud being when you don't share that delusion and you don't wish to share it

it's one thing when they're a co-worker or a friend, it's one thing if you're just having fun...but if you want the "dating" to go somewhere, i don't know

if you got serious, how often would you be embarrassed by their public display of faith? pretty often! how often would you be thinking one thing and saying another, because you had to "tolerate" what seems like a silly belief? again, pretty often

it's hard to respect somebody when you can't really respect their ability to think clearly

so i see where you're coming from and at the end of the day, i think you may want to see what else is out there on the dating scene

[GirlinContempt]

35. And this post right here, people, is what is wrong with

some atheists. Makes me want to quit the club.

[HERVEPA]

36. Thank you (almost) all for your thoughts and opinions

I'm off to a dance weekend. I'll be interested to read any more insights then.