A Question for Non-Fundamentalist Christians (or anybody)

[HERVEPA]

Which I believe probably almost all Christians on this board are.

A new friend with whom I've been exchanging e-mails knows that I'm an atheist, and knows that I do altruistic things (platelet donation, volunteer work, and so on). She is a Christian but definitely not fundamentalist.

Why would she say something like the following? (We will have a further discussion about it).


"So I guess the next question is how does your altruism, your generosity, relate to your atheism? Not two qualities I would expect to find together"

[Lars39]

1. You don't have to believe in a god to have empathy for fellow human beings.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Her mind might be open, but it isn't open very far yet.

How very sad, but what a wonderful teaching opportunity you have to dispel for her the myth that without a religious foundation, one cannot have a morally good framework. And also dispel for her the myth that if one has a religious outlook, one has ipso facto a moral character/framework.

I know plenty of moral, ethical, good atheists. And plenty of unethical, selfish, utterly clueless Christians.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Agreed. She should try reading Brian MacLaren's "A Generous Orthodxy" and

see if she can open it up a bit more.

[HERVEPA]

4. I was totally surprised at her comment.

She seems rational, intelligent, kind, altruistic. And a good dancer.

[supernova]

5. This is my answer

Rabrrrrrr said it better than I could.

:thumbsup:

edit: Probably the generous interpretation is that she's never met anyone who openly said they were atheist before. So, she's saying this without thinking. Like Rabrrrrrr said, a teaching opportunity.

[HERVEPA]

7. Since we write long e-mails,

I will definitely try to educate her. I don't really think it will be difficult, though having such a discussion in person is easier. If she can not understand it after explanations, them I will be very surprised.

[grannylib]

19. You said it very well. eom

[laconicsax]

6. Because most people have bought the line that morals come from religion and without religion,

people would automatically become violent, immoral people and society would descend into some sort of post-apocalyptic anarchy.

The religious reason for people to do good things is because God tells them that if they don't, they get punished--acting out of fear or retribution. The atheist (humanist) reason to do good deeds is because they're good deeds.

[HERVEPA]

9. I know about that line of thought, but I don't think she's a heaven/hell type of person. (nt)

[laconicsax]

11. Then you could frame it like this:

If she does good things only because God commands it, then would she really stop doing good things if she didn't believe in God?
If she's doing good things because doing so has its own merit, then how is that any different than you doing good things?

[UncleSepp]

26. Beautiful!

Doing good things because they are commanded is only supposed to be a first step. They are like exercises for the spirit and the heart. To do them mindlessly is... well, to do them mindlessly! Doing them mindfully is the real point.

[UncleSepp]

25. That's not the only religious reason,

Other religious reasons for doing good things are to come closer to the divine presence and to learn to see that same divine presence in other people. An enlightened person wants to do what is good because it is good. A person who follows a list of examples of good deeds will move toward enlightenment - they will learn by doing what it is to be good and to do good. The punishment and reward model does exist in religion, but it's not the only model.

It's also true that some atheists will do good deeds because they rationalize the reward. Either there is a direct reward from the person who is helped, or an indirect reward in the form of a more pleasant society in which to live. Such people are doing good deeds because they expect reward, not because they are good deeds. Fear of retribution also exists. There are also atheists who do not do bad things because they fear punishment from law enforcement, society, employers, or other agents.

In other words, your dichotomy is neat and clean, but not exactly true.

[laconicsax]

31. You're missing the point.

My premise is as follows this, "Only religious people will take a course of action based on the teachings of their religion."

Your argument reads as, "Religious people have more than one reason and atheists will act for non-religious reasons." That's true, and has no bearing on my argument. It is wholly tangential.

I'd like to point out that your first point is based on a false premise. That premise is, "theistic religion is the only path to enlightenment." You have neatly excluded non-religious people and those whose religions have no gods/goddesses from the possibility of ever possesing any form of 'enlightened' thinking.

Additionally, your second point is intellectually dishonest. Read this:

It's also true that some people will do good deeds because they rationalize the reward. Either there is a direct reward from the person who is helped, or an indirect reward in the form of a more pleasant society in which to live. Such people are doing good deeds because they expect reward, not because they are good deeds. Fear of retribution also exists. There are also people who do not do bad things because they fear punishment from law enforcement, society, employers, or other agents.

I took your second statement and replaced "atheists" with "people." You may have noticed that what you said is still true. Now look at this:

It's also true that some religious people will do good deeds because they rationalize the reward. Either there is a direct reward from the person who is helped, or an indirect reward in the form of a more pleasant society in which to live. Such people are doing good deeds because they expect reward, not because they are good deeds. Fear of retribution also exists. There are also religious people who do not do bad things because they fear punishment from law enforcement, society, employers, or other agents.

Your atheists are now religious and your statement is still true. I hope you see my point.

[UncleSepp]

55. Exactly.

"Your atheists are now religious and your statement is still true. I hope you see my point."

Exactly - it's still true, because atheists and religious people are people, and they will do what they do for whatever reasons they do it. That's exactly the point I wanted to make to you, that religious people and atheists can make the same choices for the same reasons.

[skater314159]

50. Well, for Polytheists...

... the reason to act in a moral and good fashion is so that we may become like Gods ourselves or break free of Karma and reincarnation.

I don't see though how any one faith or philosophy has a monopoly on morality... you need to help her realise that.

You might also want to teach her that not all people of faith believe in a single god... it'd be nice if she learned about:
* atheism
* agnosticism
* pantheism
* panentheism
* soft vs. hard polytheism
* non-theistic Christianity (like Bishop John Shelby Spong's Non-Theistic Rational Christianity)
... as I have found most Christians don't know about those other options, and assume all faiths believe in a single, theistic, God.

I'll send some good vibes your way - as sometimes trying to coax peoples' minds open can be draining!
:grouphug:

[HERVEPA]

53. Thanks for the vibes, Skater

[skater314159]

54. You are VERY welcome! nt

[mainegreen]

8. Tell her we believe Richard Dawkins can read minds and will kick our asses if we aren't good.

He's the immortal atheist with superpowers, our own judge, juror and executioner and we all live in fear and worship him and his foolish British blazers.

[HERVEPA]

10. Well said

:rofl:

[PassingFair]

13. He'll send Lalla over to put the SMACK DOWN on us.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Ask her.

This isn't someone that you've know for long enough or well enough to understand the root of that provocative statement. Perhaps she can't believe that you're an atheist and thinks you're just confused. Perhaps she does believe as others have posted that without fear of disappointing a supreme being that people have no incentive to be altruistic. Perhaps she just wants to understand how an atheist sorts out good and evil, or responsibility to others.

So again, ask her why she doesn't expect altruism and atheism to be found together and work from there.

[HERVEPA]

14. I shall, I shall

[Taverner]

15. Atheism has NOTHING to do with ethics

Or morality

Just because you don't believe in a last judgement, doesn't mean you wouldn't want to do good things.

I do good things for others simply because it needs to be done.

[HERVEPA]

16. I know, I know

I shall report back on this very thread after the next e-mail reply!

[trof]

17. I too am an atheist. And I believe we're all in this thing together.

This relatively short period of consciousness we call 'life'.
I did have a Christian (non-fundy) upbringing, so that may be an influence.

But it just makes me feel good to help people.
So maybe I really have selfish motives?
Whatever. Others get to benefit from how I feel.
Lucky them.
:-)

Since I retired, I do volunteer work with our local environmental group, The Friends of the Library, and I've worked on a Habitat house.
I just like helping people out when I can.
Why not?
People have helped me.
Pay it forward works for me.

And some of the stingiest, bigoted, egocentric, pissant people I know are BIG church goers and professed Christians.
Like a previous poster said, she has an open mind, a little bit.
Just a crack.

All 'good' people aren't Christians, and all Christians are not 'good' people.
:grr:

[grannylib]

18. Wow...just...wow. What a disconnect. Seems to be totally disengaged

from the notion that altruism is a quality found in HUMANS, not just Christians or others of faith...
Wow.

What qualities DOES she expect to find in atheists?? Mother-killin'? Father-rapin? Baby-eatin'?
Holy shit.

[skater314159]

52. I know, that's what I wondered too! nt

[RainDog]

20. definitely not fundie?

I've never heard a statement like that from anyone who isn't a fundie, but okay... assume she's not.

rather than answer her question, however, you should ask her why she would ask that question... why would she not make an association between generosity and atheism. do that before you answer (I would.) but that's because I generally detest religious people, and her statement to you is just exactly the sort of reason why. (Or rather I should say that I detest religious people who reveal their "faith" by saying assholish remarks like that.)

Does she believe the bible is literally true? Does she question evolution? These are qualities that I find usually go with her question, too.

Is that supposed to be flirting? I dunno. Hey, ask her.. if you're a christian, does that mean you're a raving lunatic? Those are two qualities I expect to find together. (okay, don't say this.)

Sorry. I wish you well. If I heard that from someone, however, I would also have a huge siren going off in my head saying RUN RUN RUN! but I'm a female, so ymmv. I could never have a relationship with someone who defined himself by a religion.

[HERVEPA]

33. We have both ruled out a relationship from the beginning

[Cabcere]

21. Ignorance, maybe?

:shrug: Or possibly just indoctrination. I imagine a lot of people are taught from a young age that atheists are "bad," and so any good things they might do "don't count," or something like that. Me, I think it's possible to believe (or not believe) anything you want, and still do good things to help your fellow human beings. :)

[TheCentepedeShoes]

22. Just thinking

Is she saying that a person wouldn't perform an unselfish act without the direction of some authority figure?

[youthere]

23. She would say something like that because...

she is spiritually ignorant, and immature..and that's not an attack on her character, simply her life experience. She's lucky to have made friends with you so that she can grow. Cool.

[Dukkha]

24. Because the opposite is usually the case

Fundamental religious people usually treat their beliefs as a blank check for acts of inhumanity against the non-believers and infidels. The martyrs of their causes don't respect life, including their own, since their focus is only on the afterlife and don't feel life in this world is sacred. Any atrocity they commit can be justified through their own interpretations of their religion's word.

The acts of charity and generosity is to some motivated only out of fear of purgatory or to rack up more self indulgent rewards in the afterlife. It doesn't come from a genuine care for their fellow humans.

[Firespirit]

27. Ask her this

Ask her what her feelings towards her fellow human beings would be if she had never heard of Jesus or any sort of God. Ask her if she would be a selfish, greedy person, or if she would still be an altruist.

I am not an atheist (I'm in the process of becoming Neopagan), but I went through an agnostic period. It didn't affect my sociopolitical beliefs. People either care about others or they don't. Religious organizations can be very beneficent and charitable, certainly, but I think that ultimately a person chooses to be religious primarily to find personal peace, not to help humanity. That can definitely be a part of one's religion, but it's not the main reason why one becomes religious.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Well, you could get into a discussion about evolutionary psychology, but...

I can see where that might make someone's eyes glaze over.

I once encountered a couple who attributed their faithfulness within their marriage to the biblical commandment against adultery. Seriously. The only reason they did not stray sexually was because a book told them not to? Mutual esteem and respect had nothing to do with it? Love and regard for their marriage was apparently not enough.

Here's the rub. I find it odd that anyone would think altruism and atheism did not go together. Altruism cannot exist as a basis for ethics if someone is relying on revelatory commands. Ergo, altruism and ethical monotheism are what do not go together. How can it be altruistic if you are doing something because a higher being has instructed you to?

[zingaro]

37. Absolutely.

If one isn't self-motivated, then one cannot be altruistic, so her (the friend's) Christian "ethics" aren't altruistic at all but merely following orders. And altruistic that is not.

[alarimer]

29. Since when does religion=morality?

some of the most immoral (and amoral) people in the world are religious. See Pat Robertson and his diamond (I think) mines. Or the late, unlamented Jerry Falwell. Or any of those assholes with bumperstickers saying "I'm not perfert, just forgiven". Apparently being forgiven in advance means you can do whatever the hell you want, like cheat on your wife or your taxes or poison your kids with Cajun spices (a case here in Corpus in which a woman was convicted of murder for killing a foster kid with Cajun spices. He died of a sodium overdose and her fundie supporters think she got railroaded.) Freaks. I could go on but you get the picture.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

46. Since they said so...

Fundamentalists don't distingish between religious faith and basic human decency. They believe that Jesus Christ is the "way, the truth, and the light" and that nobody can enter heaven without faith (and that's fair enough, it's their religion, after all). But because they conflate the two, Fundamentalists also believe that nobody can be a decent human being without faith and are genuinely shocked to find atheists and agnostics who are kind, caring, honest people.

There's probably a really good name in Latin for this logical error, but it escapes me right now.

[HERVEPA]

47. I don't believe it's heaven/hell related with this woman

and I don't believe she is a fundie.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

49. Don't necessarily have to be a Fundamentalist...

Not in the sense we use it around here, anyway. Even mainstream Christians fall into the trap that says, "I am a decent person because I am Christian" rather than "I am a decent person and I am a Christian."

You know how recently Bill O'Reilly was shocked (shocked) to learn that he could eat in a African-American owned restaurant and find all the customers orderly and well-behaved? It's because Bill is a racist pinhead, of course, but it's also because we live in a segregated world, and Bill probably has little to no social contact with African-Americans. He lives in a universe of his own preconceptions.

Christians (and other people) suffer from the same problem. Because they tend to hang out only with people of their own background and experiences, they gradually grow to assume that nobody (especially those other people) could possibly be like them. And especially when every week, they enter an environment that reinforces that perception.

It's good that you're engaged with this person. She'll be better for it.

[theredpen]

30. As a non-fundamentalist Christian

I suggest you politely tell your friend that her presuppositions are insulting. Sugar coat it (or not) as you see fit, but it's an offensive statement, IMO.

The question part isn't offensive by itself, but the qualifier following it makes it insulting. Altruism is an application of a value system and we should all know that our values come from a position of strength. A lot of theists think that they have an easier time than atheists because they can always claim, "Well, Jesus said I should do this." In fact, Jesus provides very little specific instruction. Instead, he lays down some broad — but firm — guidelines. "How does your generosity related to your belief system," is a fair question to ask her as well.

Of course, if you added, "Generosity and Christianity aren't two qualities I would expect to find together" (just look at and "Gospel of Prosperity" crap), and she'd be insulted — as you should be.

Edit: Jesus told his followers to judge others by the standard by which they would themselves be judged. Prejudice and presuppositions aren't something she'd want applied to her, I imagine.

[Kat45]

32. Perhaps her altruistic traits come from her Chrisitanity, and

she associates the two, and she's curious about where yours come from. Since she's not a fundie, the two of you could have an interesting discussion about these things. You could even ask her why she wouldn't expect to find these two qualities together. I don't think she was being insulting toward you.

[HERVEPA]

34. I know she wasn't being insulting.

And I'll find out more when she answers tomorrow.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. I'd say that altruism and generosity have as little to do with Atheism

as they do with any religion. Morality can stand by itself, without some belief (or non-belief) to prop it up. That's why separation of church and state works.

Those who require fear of hell or promises of heaven to make an effort to be decent human beings are suffering from a character flaw...possibly even a mental illness.

[Duer 157099]

36. Tell her that atheists, knowing there is no body else coming to the rescue,

pick up the slack. Simple.

[Dinger]

38. Hell, I'm A Sunday School Teacher & Go To Church (Almost) Every Week,

In have a bumper sticker on my truck (full-size 2003 GMC) that says "Better a bleeding heart than none at all,"
and another that says, "Yeah right, like Jesus would own a gun and vote republican." I park in front of church when I go, just so people who drive by can see.
That's a strange comment though. When I first read it, I thought "Does thqat mean she's gonna "work you over"
some time soon? My sister is Pagan, and my best friend is an Atheist. We talk about spirituality and religion regularly, and they are great, interesting, fun, respectful, and insightful conversations.

:)

P.S. I swear like a sailor, like to party, and raise hell whenever I can.

[quakerboy]

39. we try to understand what we do not know

I have known my share of atheists, and at this point I have very few immediate questions left. If this person is similarly experienced, then it dosn't really make sense. But many Christians know mainly Christians. Those with open minds want to understand what is outside this immediate circle. So they ask.

I would take it as an honest question, most likely. For someone who comes from a mostly typical Christian background, the basic understanding of "why be altruistic" is "because of God" so then when looking outside at someone who does not share that reason, "why" is a fairly logical question.

[MrsBrady]

40. because....

some Christians think that being atheist somehow means that you don't believe in good, or doing good.

She's probably stuck in that loop. To me, it never mattered if people believed in God or not. I figured it was none of my business...certainly Jesus never pushed himself on other people, despite how some Christians live today. To me, God is there, belief or not.

I consider myself Christian; I know plenty who called themselves that, but never did any good for others.

My husband is an atheist, but he sure does act like a good Christian much of the time. He would never call it that, but that's how I see it.

[Lethe]

41. i never understood that

so if someone puts a gun to your head and says "be altruistic" and you are, does that make you altruistic? Or are you just performing a duty to avoid punishment? (being shot in the head or burning in hell)

now take another person that is free from threat of bodily harm, who gives freely to those around him/her......

who is the better person?

[pokerfan]

42. I could not deal with anyone who thought I was evil

It's kind of an odd place from which to begin a relationship.

Ask her if she only does good because she fears punishment and eternal damnation.

http://godbegone.blogspot.com/2008/02/only-atheists-can-act-morally.html">Only Atheists Can Act Morally

[The Animator]

43. I am a proud athiest, but I used to be Catholic

it helps if you speak a little of her language.

Bring up the parable of the Good Sumeritan.

Some Christians were talking smack about people of other religions, claiming all other religions to be inferior. Jesus then says "Hey, knock that shit off! Your gonna make us look bad you self-righteous jackasses! Sit down and let me tell you a story...

A guy is walking down the street when he gets mugged, and left for dead out in the middle of friggin' nowhere. A Christian walks past and the guy calls out to him. 'Fellow Christian, help me, I've been mugged and I need some help.'

The Christian responds 'sorry dude, I'm late for church.' Another Christian passes by and the victim calls out again.

'Fellow Christian, please help me, I've been beaten robbed!' Sorry, all the money I have on me is going to help fund the Super Mighty Fundie Tower, which will be able to receive satellite transmissions directly from God's colon!'

'God's colon?'

'sorry gotta go!'

A third Christian passes by, the helpless man cries out again. 'Fellow Christian! I've been beaten, robbed and left for dead, please, for the love of God help me!'

'Sorry, I'm flying out on my private jet to do some important missionary work out in Vegas.'

'Fucken hell! Don't you get it? I'm literally DYING here! I'll do anything please just help me! I'll even be your altar boy!'

'Sorry son, you got a pretty mouth and all, but your just too old for my tas... I mean, you don't fit the Lord's specifications for that role.'

'You know what? Fuck you.'

'The Lord doesn't like bitter people son'

'KISS MY ASS!'

Another traveler passes by, by this time our tired, beaten, and fragile friend has almost given up hope that someone would help him.

'Dude, are you okay? You look like shit.'

'Well I've been robbed, beaten, left for dead, and I've been begging for someone to help me for the past two days so yeah, I'm feeling just peachy.'

'Crap that's horrible! Here, I've got some water, uh... half a sandwich, well hell, let me give you a ride to the nearest hospital.'

'Are you seriess!!11!! Oh thank you! Bless you! I've been begging, praying for someone to help me. Thank fellow Christian, thank you."

'Um... actually, I'm not Christian, I'm a Sumeritan.'

'really?'

'yeah.'

'... really?'

'... yeah.'

'Wow, an altruistic Sumeritan, not two qualities I would expect to find together.'

'Want me to pull over so you can try to flag down another Christian?'

'No, no, point taken, I'm good.'

...and thus ends the Parable of the good Sumeritan." Jesus then asks "Any questions?"

"Yeah what denomination of Christianity do you belong to Jesus?"

"Dude... I'm Jewish."

"... really?"

"... yeah."

"...... really?"

"(idiots!) ... yeah."

[HERVEPA]

44. Thanks all for posting

For those who may not have read the whole thread,

The woman is a friend, there is no possibility, from both sides, of a relationship.

She is not a fundie who thinks I will go to hell.

From her first response to my asking her about her statement, I think she has not really thought about this much, and it was just an offhand, not well thought out comment.

We will have more conversations about this.

I will provide some "education" to her, and I will try to get from her where this thought came from, and discuss it.

When dealing with a generally reasonable person, which I believe she is, I think it's better to try to talk about this stuff rather than write the person off as a friend.

If anything interesting or informative comes from these conversations, I will post what is appropriate.

Again, thanks all for your thoughts on this.

[unpossibles]

45. you could point out that not only is altruism not related to belief/no-belief

but that many other animals besides humans have shown examples of altruism, and not just primates, but many social animals such as canines and dolphins.

I don't do good because of a Cosmic Boogeyman, I do good because I want to. It makes me feel better, and it improves society even if just one person at a time. Maybe it's just a trait which we evolved in order to survive better.

[Kajsa]

51. Here's a GREAT story that proves your point, unpossibles.

From Seabiscuit's thread yesterday,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2997362&mesg_id=2997362


:D

[Orsino]

48. "I believe in my fellow man, though not in any deity."

The less polite version is, "I don't require a threat of divine punishment to muster goodwill for others."

[distantearlywarning]

56. Because people think that morality can only come from religion.

This is a worldview which puzzled me the first time I encountered it as well.