I played backgammon online for the first time tonight

[RainDog]

and it CHEATED!

or maybe I don't know how it works online. but it would move a piece I didn't choose, and then kill me!! but, even so, I still beat it... at level 9!! I think I'll go for 10 now.

but if you wanted to play a backgame and they moved a piece for you to cover another one... is that how it always is?

[defendandprotect]

1. Are you playing a real person or a computer --- ???

Don't know anything about the game ---
I play checkers on line --- real people ---

[RainDog]

2. I was playing against a computer

and I would select a piece to move and the thing would move another piece!!! it did that over and over - I played 7 games... I wondered if I'd done something wrong.

but also, when it's gonna get backgammoned (yeeeeh, I backgammoned the computer!) it doesn't try to move its pieces out of the back board. it was weird.

I'm too much of a wimp to play someone else.

[defendandprotect]

3. Well, maybe you can try for another backgammon site . . .

usually there are a few options for games ---

You might find one that works the way it should ---

Playing against a computer is usually a lot harder than against a real human --- IMO.

They have no emotional reactions --- no distractions ---

[pokerfan]

4. Try Jellyfish Backgammon

It's one of the strongest programs out there,

http://www.jellyfish-backgammon.com

Download the free version.

[RainDog]

5. thanks! I just beat level 10 3 out of 4 games.

which is weird. do computers let you win? :shrug:

[pokerfan]

6. It shouldn't be that easy or maybe you're very good

Have you tried match play?

What version did you download? The version I play (3.5) has only 7 levels. I generally play matches to 7 points and can beat it about a third of the time.

[RainDog]

9. um, no (see below)

I guess the computer was having pity on me.

I learned to play from someone who used to play (casually) for money. He financed his bar bills in college via backgammon.

I didn't download a version. I just googled backgammon and chose one. it was sponsored by nabisco. nabisco? I thought it would be okay... for a non-gambling wimp like me.

I've never tried match play. I don't even know what it is. what is it?

[pokerfan]

10. Holy crap!

Was that me? Backgammon was "hugh" when I was in college back in the seventies. I had read a couple of books on strategy so that gave me an advantage over 99% of the players out there. I won a few tournaments and always had my backgammon set with me. It paid for the beer.

Backgammon is actually a very difficult for a computer to play well. I had a program for my Palm Pilot that was just terrible. Chess is actually much easier for a computer. Fewer moves on each ply and no dice.

The funny thing about backgammon is that a good player will simply look like the luckiest son of a bitch in the world. That's because the player has maximized the number of rolls that are "good" for him while doing the opposite for his opponent.

Anyway, Jellyfish is pretty sophisticated. It implements a neural net and is considered to be one of the strongest programs out there. There's another one called Snowie, but I haven't played that one.

So give Jellyfish a try and let me know what you think. You can download a free version from their site. The pay versions have more features like game analysis. The free version just plays games.

Match play uses the doubling cube and inviolves a series of games. I usually play the 7 point matches against the computer.

[RainDog]

11. Was that you!?!

Hi! Did you also play blues harmonica and also play pool for cash? I'm a really terrible pool player, but I like to play. Sometimes I get lucky. I did learn a little about it, too, but I don't know if any lesson could overcome my spatially challenged brain. I sort of knew how to play a while back, but forgot. So I relearned in the last decade.

My friend also likes to play with the doubling cube. For me, that's not as fun for a game b/c I won't take chances... I'll just give the game because the odds don't ever look too good to me.

As far as play... one thing I thought was so weird for the computer is that, instead of trying to build a block, it would pile up pieces on the... six spot.. or the 18 spot. But still make a good block. That's when I got so ticked because it would move a piece I didn't want to, and then it had a total block so I couldn't get in. That was cheating.

But I really didn't notice that much difference between level 1 and level 10 on the game I tried. I'll try the one you mentioned.

[pokerfan]

13. LOL

No it wasn't me. Never played much pool. Darts was more my game. Played that for money too.

Interesting principle of the doubling cube: What do you think your chances would have to be before you accept a double? Would you believe 25%? Neither did I until I looked at the math.

Let's assume that you are playing for $1 and that you will win 25$ of the time when your opponent doubles. If you play four games, you will win one and lose three.

If you refuse the double all four times, you are out $4.

If you accept the double all four times, you win $2 and lose $6, netting a $4 loss, same as if you refused all four times.

Therefore, 25% is the break-even point for deciding whether to accept doubles! If you think you have a better than a 1 in 4 chance of winning, you should accept.

Absolutely the best introductory book on Backgammon is Phil Magriel:



It's over thirty years old and computers have greatly expanded our understanding of the game since then but it remains an excellent starting point. It's long our of print but I found a used copy on the internets. And oh yeah, it's also over 400 pages long!

Wow, I just checked and it's back in the form of a 2004 edition. $28 is a steal. I spent around $70 for a used copy.

[RainDog]

14. ummmmm

why would I think I have a better than one in four chance of winning?

I'm not joking when I say I'm a spatially challenged math phobic stereotypical femme (sorry, sisters, it's true) who has the same reaction to math that I have to mice... which is to say I scream and stand up on chairs until it goes away.

I play... ummmm... zen backgammon. yeah, that's what it is. I look at the board holistically and decide how I can beat the crap out of the computer player.

[pokerfan]

16. Say you're playing the game with the cube

and you opponent offers you a double.

If, in your estimation, you think your chances of winning are 25% or better, you should accept the double.

If you think your position is so bad that you are doomed to only win less than 25% from that point, then you should refuse.

But it's hard to evaluate your position that accurately so it's more of a general principle. Basically it means, just because you are behind you should not necessarily give up on a game.

[cbayer]

7. Computers always let you win

until they decide it is time for you to lose.

[RainDog]

8. really?

damn, I was just going to get out my backgammon queen tiara. I guess not... sigh.

[RainDog]

12. it's for windows

and I'm a mac head. :(

[pokerfan]

15. I thought Macs could run Windows programs

[RainDog]

17. with virtual pc

which I do not have installed, tho I have it. it takes up so much space, it's not worth it to me - plus I had it on a mac and I never could get it to cooperate, tho I have used it on another mac... not my own. I looked at other online backgammon and it looks like it's all about betting, or it's something I don't know and since it's about gambling, I'm not too excited about using an exe to download. Am I a luddite?

so I'm stuck with a computer game that cheats?!!? it really does. and every time it does, it does so in a way that forces me to leave a piece unprotected.

[pokerfan]

18. Try GNU Backgammon for MacOS X

It's free:
http://www.gnubg.org/index.php?itemid=23

Not as strong as Jellyfish or Snowie but at least I don't think it cheats.

http://www.learnplaywin.net/backgammon/backgammon-training-software.htm

[RainDog]

19. zut alors!

I can't get this one to download, either. I give up.

here's the one I tried. tell me if it tries to move your pieces too.

it's from freakin' nabisco. I am such a playa.

http://www.nabiscoworld.com/Games/game_large.aspx?gameid=10036

[RainDog]

20. ooooo hey!

we could play each other online via that site. then you'll get to kick my backgammon arse. If you wanna, send me a pm.

[pokerfan]

21. Shockwave doesn't play well with my Firefox

I will try to fool with it this weekend.

[RainDog]

22. oh well.

don't worry about it. I've never played someone else online. I probably wouldn't do it right anyway. with the mac thing, I have apple x11 but when I tried to download the gnu thing, I got a web page that said 404 and when I dragged the thing onto my desktop it wouldn't open at all.

I wish I were higher on the geek factor. It would make my life a lot easier.

oh, and another thing I found with that game. You know, when you're taking off, you want to position your pieces for maximum take off... but when I (or you, I assume) try to, say, move a four to a two space (with a two on the three point, it takes off the three point instead. If you're in a shoot out at the end of a game, that can make a difference b/t winning and losing, so I don't understand why the game isn't programmed to do that for itself, not just flesh and blood players.

And it should also be programmed to argue "if this, then" for when there are no longer any pieces from the other player between it and its home. it still tries to make points with pieces inside the home space, rather than bring all other pieces around... which is also why it's easier to backgammon or gammon the game rather than a real person.

[pokerfan]

23. Bearing off

Jellyfish has a setting called "Greedy Bearoff" that pretty much does what it says provided you and your opponent have broken contact and it's just a race. As you know, you don't have to use your rolls in the most efficient manner possible and sometimes you shouldn't to avoid leaving a blot.

As far as gnubackgammon goes, you might try googling around for other download sites.