Have you settled down and become a Christian?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

My kid was reading his history text, which is a simplified history of the world. It's basically a good text; but occasionally I have to point out misconceptions and add things that have been left out.

Here's how they start the chapter on William the Conqueror:

When Alfred was king, the Danes had raided England.
At the same time, their cousins the Norsemen had raided the coast of France.
King Alfred at last had to give the Danes a part of the English coast, and they settled down and became Christians.

The French king likewise did the same thing. In order to save himself from further raids, he gave the Norsemen a part of the French coast. The Norsemen then, as the Danes had done, settled down and became Christians.

Needless to say, there were some misconceptions that required an explanation. :eyes:

[madinmaryland]

1. Well, I got an email telling me I could get a payday loan from the Christian Credit Providers.

:wtf:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7647703&mesg_id=7647703

[GoddessOfGuinness]

2. I saw that right after I posted this...

Impeccable timing!

[madinmaryland]

3. It was truly bizarro! It went straight to my junk email at work, which normally I don't check,

because the crap normally comes at 2am. So I click on my junk email and up pops this email from them.

I SO wanted to send it to a few fundies that i know!! :evilgrin:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

4. You should!

:rofl:

[madinmaryland]

5. Damn fools will probably buy into it, even as they bitch

about their credit card interest rates doubling and their mortgage payments doubling also.

[newmajority]

9. You should take them up on their offer and visit their office.

Not to actually take out a loan, but to remind them about what "God's Holy Word" says about usury....

(All references are from the New King James Bible)

25 " If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
26 "If you ever take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
27 "For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. (Exodus 22:25-27)
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35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)
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19 " You shall not charge interest to your brother -- interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.
20 "To a foreigner you may charge interest, but to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:19,20)
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10 "I also, with my brethren and my servants, am lending them money and grain. Please, let us stop this usury!
11 "Restore now to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their olive groves, and their houses, also a hundredth of the money and the grain, the new wine and the oil, that you have charged them." (Nehemiah 5:10,11)
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5 He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)
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8 One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)
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24:1 Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the LORD has spoken this word. (Isaiah 24:1-3)
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10 Woe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest. Every one of them curses me. (Jeremiah 15:10)
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7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully -- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 18:7-9)
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13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)
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17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes -- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live! (Ezekiel 18:17)
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12 "In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)
---------
14 " For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 "And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
16 "Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents.
17 "And likewise he who had received two gained two more also.
18 "But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's money.
19 "After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 "So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
21 "His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
22 "He also who had received two talents came and said, 'Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.'
23 "His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
24 "Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 'And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26 "But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 'Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 'For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. (Matthew 25:14-29)
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11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.
12 Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return.
13 "So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business till I come.'
14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.'
15 "And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 "Then came the first, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned ten minas.'
17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.'
18 "And the second came, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned five minas.'
19 "Likewise he said to him, 'You also be over five cities.'
20 "Then another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief.
21 'For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.'
22 "And he said to him, 'Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow.
23 'Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?'
24 "And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.'
25 ("But they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas.')
26 'For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. (Luke 19:11-26)

It seems that God and Jesus were pretty clear about where They stand on someone making a criminal profit from loaning money. So you should suggest that, as Christians, they should offer interest-free loans, which can be paid back "whenever the Lord wills it". O8)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

15. Oh, well you're taking all of that out of context.

That's what they always say when you fight them with their own beliefs. They don't really know what they believe. They just pretend to believe it because they are scared not to. They've probably never read what you've written.
Duckie

[China_cat]

16. Their bible is easier for them to thump

than it is to read.

[Jamastiene]

6. Not yet. There are way way way too many

prostitutes left in this world who haven't gotten some of or all of my money yet. It may take a while even though I know the drill; leave the money on the table. Hey, how else would I know I just got laid? :P

[GoddessOfGuinness]

10. It sounds like you've settled down...

just like a number of christians who've been in the news lately... :rofl:

[BarenakedLady]

7. Let me state the obvious

Is "settle down" a euphemism for we kill you all until you submit?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

11. Probably in part...

I'm pretty sure some of that "settling down" was plain old greed...All that treasure in heaven, y'know.

[avasmom]

26. those damn iraqis should settle down.

:sarcasm:

[Swede]

8. Send in the beserkers.

That's what us Swedes would do.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

12. beserkers?

I'm intrigued...

[Rabrrrrrr]

13. Yes, the beserkers! My father was a beserk, I'm a beserk, and you're a beserk!

:rofl:

I love beserkers.

[meow2u3]

14. I'd send that text to Richard Lederer if I were you

That's a classic example of Anguished English. It belongs in a blooper book, not a textbook.

E-mail Mr. Lederer with your bloopers at [e-mail]

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. Isn't he more of a semantics humorist?

I'd love to send this to somebody...

It was written right after WWI, which explains some of the blatant misconceptions. It was edited and updated in the early 1990s to include more African history. I'm not sure why they couldn't have cleaned things up a little more instead of being so christianity-centered.

[Tikki]

17. Yes and no....in that order.

The two are NOT mutually inclusive.


Tikki

[GoddessOfGuinness]

19. They aren't?

:eyes:

[TexasBushwhacker]

18. Too bad the author didn't settle down and learn to write!

"had raided"

Jeez! This is supposed to TEACH our children?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. I think the grammar is correct, though archaic...

The text was originally written after WWI.

[TexasBushwhacker]

24. It was originally written after WWII?

I realize the facts of history don't change, but our perspective of them certainly does. Why are they still using archaic language (and attitudes!) in a modern textbook?

[petronius]

37. I think the grammar is off - at least, the tenses are odd

The way it's phrased does not make clear that the raids were continuing (which is important - if the raids were over, why give up the land?)

</high school Latin flashback>

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. It certainly could have been written with greater clarity.

"When Alfred was king, the Danes had been raiding England."
"The Danes had been raiding England since before Alfred became king."

I can't imagine why they didn't revise it, since they were revising other things.

[Ellen Forradalom]

22. No, I'm still all hyped up and heretic

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

34. WooHoo!

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

[spoony]

23. The conversion of the Norse and German tribes DID help

settle them into civilisation. It not only created commonality, it had profound impact on the development of order and education. I know it's gauche at DU to credit religion with anything good, but to deny its importance in advancing the region would be dishonest.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

30. Those tribes were as "civilized" as any Christian countries...

They also had religion. I can't believe they wouldn't have evolved without Christianity.

[spoony]

36. No one said they wouldn't have, but they didn't in actual history

As for your first point, no they were not. The tribes that replaced Roman rule were in no way the civil equal of the Romano-Britons inhabiting the isle when they invaded, nor were later invading Scandinavian tribes the civil equal of Anglo-Saxons after THEY converted and began re-establishing the civilisation left crumbled after Rome's collapse.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

39. The Romans were not Christian until after they invaded Briton...

Their conversion did not occur until well after their civilization was established.

[spoony]

42. Yes, I know. I didn't say they were. I said that

after they left civilisation did not rise again from the vacuum they left until after the tribes converted. They were roving war parties and the introduction of Christianity was important to how they developed. There really is no argument to be made to the contrary.

[Lethe]

43. this whole premise is ridiculous

did help for what? to destroy the rich heritage of the norse polytheistic religion which had survived and sustained their people for thousands of years?

[spoony]

44. Their "heritage" is not the issue, but it certainly wasn't "destroyed"

either. The issue is the tribal progression to a politically stable region (Britain/Normandy), of which Christianity was an important catalyst. It was not a forced conversion but the slow change that followed their leaders converting for the sake of political alliances, so nothing was "destroyed" or anything so silly as you breathlessly cry.

[Lethe]

48. breathlessly cry?

i look forward to the time that my brothers meet your brothers on the battlefield. We'll see who "breathlessly cries."

[JVS]

46. The Norse didn't start writing books until the missionaries converted them.

Prior to that there were runic inscriptions, but those provide very little information. Ironically Christianization is one of the major factors contributing to our knowledge of what was, as the earlier bookkeeping didn't exist.

[avasmom]

25. really weird language

was this a secular text? the wording "settled down and became christians" implies that without christianity, they were violent and/or otherwise "unsettled" or uncivilized.

really strange. i've only seen language like this in christian homeschool texts.

[Ellen Forradalom]

27. Very poorly written

Arguably could apply to the Magyars, who were rambunctious and pagan until they converted under king Istvan.

I wouldn't say that the Christianization of the Norse put an end to raids, trade and colonization.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. It was written just after WWI, and added to

over the years. It is a homeschool text; but not a Christian homeschool. Still, this particular selection screams with evidence of religious presumptuousness in the USA.

The book is not unlike history books my mother used in elementary school back in the 1940s. I like it because I want my son to learn about various religions from a historical standpoint, without being preached at to subscribe to one. It's a good opportunity to talk with him about being careful not to gullibly swallow whatever has been written.

[BeachBaby]

28. Hell no!

:hi:

At the age of 39, happily unsettled and living in sin. :evilgrin:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

32. "living in sin"

I think that's one of my least favorite catch phrases.

Why do they use that for people who feel loving and passionate with one another? Why not describe hateful people as "living in sin"?

[BeachBaby]

47. I know - I was being facetious.

:hi:

There's nothing sinful about being happy and loving someone.

Peace. :)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. Never in a million years!!

Godless secular humanist Unitarian here, 53 and living in sin happily!!!

:evilgrin:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

33. I've decided I'm going to apply that term where it belongs...

Racists and mysoginists live in sin.
People who make up lies so they have an excuse to invade countries live in sin.

You're living decently. :toast:

[Chan790]

35. Um, no.

I settled down and accepted my true Lord and Savior...me. Master of my own destiny.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

38. Good for YOU!!!!

Humanists believe that humans can do great things.

What a concept.

:toast:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

41. Oy...One of those heathen types, eh?

:rofl:

[YankeyMCC]

45. I've settled down and become a Secular Humanist

close enough? ;)

Actually giving the authors the benefit of the doubt I think they just meant to convey that the Norse raiders ended up just settling down and become assimilated into the local culture, which would've included taking up the local religion which was christiantiy at that time and place.