How Much of a Carnivore are you?

[Mass_Liberal]

?????

Vote number one if you are a veggie. And don't read the other options. Unless Robb is a vegetable.

[Mass_Liberal]

1. kick

so people can see the results

[DenverDem]

2. Vegans live longer and better quality lives.

Another reason I support DK.

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. You don't live longer-- it only SEEMS that way!

j/k :P

[DenverDem]

6. I haven't missed meat a single time

since I started my veg run in 1975. (Actually 1/1/75)

It is a pain in the ass to take all the crap I have over it for the last 29 years. If we would all go vegan there would be no starvation in the world (if we could get the distribution problem solved) and we could immediately reduce a huge ammount of pollution problems.

Don't believe the carnivore hype!

[AndyTiedye]

7. Forcing Everybody to Give up Meat, Milk, Fish & Eggs Won't Solve Anything

> If we would all go vegan there would be no starvation in the world (if
> we could get the distribution problem solved)

Distribution IS the problem, and forcing everybody onto an all-vegan
diet won't do anything to solve it.

People can't eat grass, but cows and sheep can.
People can't eat plankton, but fish can.

[DenverDem]

12. Incorrect, sir.

First of all, people can eat plankton, I do every day and it is the best source of minerals and micro nutrients you can get.

Cows and sheep are not primarily grown on grass any more, and the protein conversion of the tons of grain fed to cattle is hugely inefficient. Feed that grain directly to people and you would solve the hunger problem in one fell swoop.

Of course, you can't FORCE everybody to veganism, and I resent you implying that I proposed that. Veganism WOULD solve many health and environmental problems. If you rationally look at the health and environmental benefits of veganism it makes complete social responsiblity and economic sense.

Carnivores are strangely militantly defensive about challenges to the effacacy their diet and I have been putting up with abuse about my diet choices daily for three decades.

[Whitacre D_WI]

18. Grass-fed cattle do taste better than grain-fed.

Well, they do! :)

[amazona]

29. we don't all live in denver

I want to point out your claim that cows are not primarily fed on grass is just wrong. In the third world, that's exactly what they are eating. Cows, goats, sheep, chickens are turning areas too poor for raising plant crops into protein. If everyone went vegan tomorrow, it would be genocide of the Maasai people of Kenya, for example. Even in Louisiana, I can think of at least two well-known areas off the top that have quite worthless areas for rice, crawfish, sugar, etc, hell, even cotton -- so they have cows there instead. Colorado is a very rich state. It is wrong to presume that because your ranchers can feed your cattle grain, everybody does.

People went to the trouble of messing with cows, goats, etc. because they turn thorns into protein -- literally in the case of goats, in Kenya I could watch them eating thorns that nothing else could eat, on land where the only vegetable that could grow might be the introduced prickley pear -- and even that not everywhere.

I shouldn't rant but I think people should be aware -- grain fed cattle is a rich person's luxury. It is not why most people worldwide raise and eat cattle.

Call it defensive, but I used to share your beliefs about a vegetarian diet. After some years of investigation, I had to accept that I was wrong. Thousands of different peoples of the world were not stupid or crazy. They deal with large, dangerous livestock for a reason, and the reason is, in areas where food crops can't be grown, the livestock can turn grass and thorns into calories.

[DenverDem]

35. Perhaps there are too many humans on the planet

and they shouldn't be living in inhospitable places in the first place.

[amazona]

27. because so many of us would be dead so fast

I hope you understand that some of us -- many of us ? -- have inefficient metabolisms and would quickly be dead on a vegan diet. I struggle to consume enough calories to maintain weight. Worldwide, the problem is not people eating too much, it's people not eating enough.

I've also watched a close friend go through his dad's pernicious anemia, which a significant number of people would suffer from on vegan diets. It is not pretty, and the neurological damage is not reversible.

It's dangerous to universalize. What works for a minority -- and vegans are a minority -- doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Please don't take food out of my mouth. I've got it tough enough as it is. I'm not trying to give anyone "crap," although it probably sounds that way -- I'm fairly tactless and for that I certainly apologize. I'm just tired of watching girls and women die and injure themselves because of our hysterical fear of food. Meat may be a small part of the diet but it is very, very, VERY difficult for some of us to get enough fat/calories from vegetables. Meat-eaters may be technically in the majority but we are hammered with anti-food and anti-meat hysteria and propaganda every day of our lives. You can hardly watch the news without being hit with some piece of "reportage" trying to convince you not to eat.

[Whitacre D_WI]

4. Show me some evidence.

This is not a flame, I'm serious. I hear this comment a lot, but have never seen a single SHRED of non-anecdotal evidence to back it up.

There are definately health risks from consuming too many animal fats, that is established. However, it requires a great deal more effort and determination to get all one's needed nutrients on a vegan diet.

I believe it is possible that a wholly vegan diet COULD be, with a great deal of care taken, the healthiest diet. Not that I'd choose that path (I also smoke), but I recognize the possibility.

However, my (non-medical professional) opinion is that humans evolved as omnivores, and are therefore naturally BEST suited to a varied diet.

I would never question someone for being a vegetarian/vegan on religious or moral grounds; but before making medical claims, you should be able to provide medical evidence.




Oh, and BTW -- I loves my meat, but I also suppork DK (he and I had a discussion once about West Side Market's fine kielbasa vendors, even though he no longer eats them).

[DenverDem]

8. Vegan health facts

This is a good place to start:

<http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health1.html>

There are plenty of studies linking animal sourced foods to digestive system diseases, heart disease, obesity, and cancer.

A vegan diet is easy with a little knowledge.

I disagree with the "omnivore" claim. Humans don't have the right teeth or intestines to eat meat. Meat is not completely digested by humans and the rotting residual intestinal plaque is the toxic source of some of the diseases above.

Above and beyond health benefits are the environmental and animal rights issues. I started veganism for health (and general hippie-ness) but have come to appreciate the moral and spiritual benefits over the 29 years I have been doing this.

[Whitacre D_WI]

9. Thanks for the link.

I don't necessarily buy the thesis, but I will read these studies with an open mind. I'm always game for more info.

[Mass_Liberal]

10. if humans weren't evolved to eat meat

we wouldn't naturally eat meat. But we have. Since the beginning of humanity.

[DenverDem]

13. Humans don't naturally eat meat,

it is a product of socialization.

[Endangered Specie]

15. Bullshit

That is false my friend, human biology needs many things that can only be gotten in meats.

[DenverDem]

20. No, THAT'S total bullshit.

I've been a vegan for 29 years and haven't wanted for a single amino acid. There is no element humans need that is not found in a proper vegan diet.
I am a 6'2" man in perfect health with perfect blood work and super low cholesterol.

[Whitacre D_WI]

16. Erm.

The fossil records suggest omnivorous humans for as far back as we have found human fossils.


Sure, there was socialization going on back then; but we weren't there, don't have a written record, so we cannot say with any honesty what that socialization was.

Come on, DenverDem, that was a bit disingenuous.

[DenverDem]

22. A vegan can't win in this argument

after centuries of socialized carnivorism and misinformation by special interests.

I stand completely behind the fact that human intestines do not digest meat fully and the toxic residue is the source of almost all non pollution caused disease and I am not in the least disingenuous about it.

It sure is funny how militant carnivores are.

[Whitacre D_WI]

25. Pot? Meet kettle.

I'm not militant in the least. I disagree with you, but I'm not trying to force anybody to see it my way.

I am speaking to facts (fossil record). You claim to be speaking to facts as well, though I haven't read all the material on that link. And it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to know what if any socialization occurred in pre-historic humanity to lead them to eat meat. We do, however, know that they did eat meat.

I am not, and will never, criticize you for choosing to be a vegan. Therefore -- I AM NOT BEING MILITANT.

You are criticizing me for having the temerity to speak my mind. Therefore -- well, that seems like the definition of "militant" to me.

[DenverDem]

34. I'm not talking about you

as a militant, but your cronies on this thread. You, at least, had the pretense of an open mind.

I stand by my position that veganism is the only socially responsible diet.

We haven't even gotten into the animal cruelty issues, which are massive. The things we do to sentient animals so that we can have 99 cent whoppers are unconscionable.

Read John Robbins' book "Diet for a New America" and get back to me.

[Mass_Liberal]

21. not a product of socialization

we've been eating meat since our species came into being. It's not like a bunch of stone-age humans got together and said they wanted a bit of boar with their caviar.

[DenverDem]

23. Not true.

Humans had to learn how to kill animals before they could eat them. Until they developed weapons they were eating defensless fruits and vegetables.

[Whitacre D_WI]

26. What about carrion?

And -- this may be the time to ask -- do you believe in evolution?

MANY animals other than humans hunt and kill, some use tools. We didn't need to "learn" anything that wasn't already present in our instinct.

Humans don't need weapons to eat meet. Sure, we needed weapons to eat a friggin' mammoth, unless it was already dead. But humans could catch squirrels plenty easy with nothing but their wits and their hands.

And maybe a nice rock.

[amazona]

30. primates killed before they were human

You've got the cart before the horse here in my humble opinion. We now know, with better observation, that the higher apes do kill and eat animals. Do you think that our ancestors had less knowledge or get-up-and-go than a chimp or a gorilla? Everything I've seen suggests that even the earliest humans were meat-eaters and killers.

Where I live, in south Louisiana, 10,000 years ago, we used to have rhinoceros. They didn't just jump off a cliff and get out of the way because humans came to live here. People killed them. And ate them. And probably swapped stories that they were more virile as a result, but that's neither here nor there.

We have records of massive mega-fauna extinction in North America, and to the best of my knowledge, worldwide, from prehistoric times. I just don't think people were going to all that trouble to kill all the big animals because they didn't have TV and were bored.

[mobuto]

39. So?

Lions had to learn to hunt antelope before they could eat them. Its not so easy.

Evolution works.

[mobuto]

17. What are canines and incisors for?

Leaf lettuce?

Meat is not completely digested by humans and the rotting residual intestinal plaque is the toxic source of some of the diseases above.

Residual instestinal plaque? Really? And I believed in the germ theory!

[Endangered Specie]

14. You suffer longer, that is

[Slice]

32. Yeah

but you don't get to eat meat. Meat tastes so good. Who cares if you die 5 or 6 years early? And I've seen plenty of vegetarians who smoke, so their vegan lifestyle is cancelled out by that.

I eat red meat, and I like it. I love hamburgers and hot dogs, and I love grilling up a good steak. I like grilled chicken and turkey and ostrich and any kind of seafood.

[supernova]

5. I eat beef

but I've never eaten steak tartar.

I don't have a problem with those who want to be vegan; I've found that that diet just doesn't satisfy me and makes me gain weight, oddly enough. :crazy:

I'm better off with my little bits of meat and veggies every day.

[mobuto]

11. Really?

Because if you don't eat steak tartar, you might as well be a vegetarian. What's the point?

Mmmm. Meat.

[supernova]

24. LOL!

You must have been one of those hunters back in the day who ate the kill right out in the field, not bothering to cook it over the fire. :D

[mobuto]

36. What do you mean "back in the day?"

You must have been one of those hunters back in the day who ate the kill right out in the field, not bothering to cook it over the fire.


I can neither confirm nor deny the terrible rumors that I've gone on repeated rampages in the Central Park Zoo. Cooking kills the taste of wildebeast.

[Bonhomme Richard]

19. When I had a physical my doctor asked.....

what my eating habits were. I told him mostly fried but I have been cutting back on the bacon fat fried bread in the morning.
Then he asked me how many times a week I ate meat. I looked at him in all seriousness and asked if it was a trick question.
Asked if I smoke and told him a pack a day.
He ordered the cholesteral test, the blowing in the tube test, and lung x-ray.
Hah, I passed the cholesteral test, broke the blow tube tester (I'm a singer, lungs I have) and the x-rays were clear.
I know......I'm living on borrowed time.

[Darranar]

28. Won't eat mammals...

a compromise between my leftist urge to boycott animal-abusing companies and my human desire for meat.

[MrSandman]

31. Vegan

Ancient word for bad hunter

[FDRrocks]

38. and...

good gatherer. :D

[democracy eh]

33. I used to eat wild meat

when I lived in the north country. mmmm caribou, smoked whitefish, musk ox, char Yummy

now that I am back to civilization mostly vegetarian with occasional treats of fish and grass fed beef or free range chicken.

and yes my friends, grass fed tastes better

[name not needed]

37. I AM GORTHON THE DESTROYER

GET IN MA BELLY!!!