Excuse me , but rap is not music

[UndertheOcean]

call it whatever you want , but it is NOT music.

Every time I listen to it , to try and widen my horizon, I feel like puking,yuck.

Even metal has some musicality in it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. Like all genres, it has its good and bad.

And good rap/hip-hop certainly is music.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. Oui!

*trots off to listen to some vintage Goodie Mob/Witchdoctor*

:hi:

[UndertheOcean]

3. Give me an example .

[Starbucks Anarchist]

33. Public Enemy, Aesop Rock, Blackalicious, DJ Shadow, Mos Def, A Tribe Called Quest.

Off the top of my head.

[fudge stripe cookays]

154. Yep!

Ever hear Me Phi Me? Kind of "acoustic rap." :thumbsup:

[Danger Mouse]

172. Awesome examples. Love Aesop and Shadow. I would add Buck 65, El-P, and Sage Francis as well.

[devilgrrl]

40. Saul Williams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1llNYAlYrc

Listen hard

[Maestro]

98. He's awesome!

:thumbsup:

[ghostsofgiants]

43. Don't spout off bullshit when you're obviously so very ignorant of the genre...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKM9odw4P6U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afX6VYn48KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF7E23FLiW4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF7E23FLiW4

[UndertheOcean]

55. Thank you , those are really good

[ghostsofgiants]

58. Hip-hop is a hot-button topic for me, so sorry if I came out arms swinging, haha.

But if you seriously want more good stuff, I can see what I can do.

[Cant trust em]

92. You mean the guy with the Souls of Mischief sigline takes his hip-hop seriously?

Those hip-hop math things are hilarious.

[Number23]

93. I know!

And I just clicked on some of his YouTube examples of "good hip hop" and I'm sitting here with a total :wtf: look on my face. Hopefully he was playing (??).

Starbucks named some good ones. Public Enemy is one of my all-time favorites. And if you want something a bit more mellow, some old-school Leaders of the New School, Tribe Called Quest, Gang Starr etc. hit the spot nicely.

[ghostsofgiants]

118. The links I posted (especially The Coup and El-P) are highly respected underground hip-hop artists.

[Danger Mouse]

173. I fuckin love 'the overly dramatic truth'

[ghostsofgiants]

187. One of the best songs on one of the best albums of the decade.

[Danger Mouse]

194. 2007 was an AWESOME year for good music...'I'll Sleep When You're Dead' stands out as...

the best of an already excellent crowd.

[Cant trust em]

121. The Low End Theory is probably my second favorite album of all time

number one is Abbey Road if that gives you any kind of perspective on what A Tribe Called Quest Means to me.

There's a lot of good stuff out there.

[Number23]

153. Low End Theory

The Low End Theory is probably my second favorite album of all time

COMPLETELY agree. Oh, the memories. A boy I dated when I was in undergrad bought that tape for me. I played it over and over until it literally exploded in my boombox.

The only other tape that got played until explosion was "Straight Outta Compton" by NWA. I'd bought that tape five times until I finally bought the CD.

[devilgrrl]

60. Check out this Jay Z remix Can I Get A (Chaiyya Chaiya)

http://www.imeem.com/sabielkh/music/URH3aV8n/jay_z_remix_can_i_get_a_chaiyya_chaiya/

[devilgrrl]

64. ....

:thumbsup:

[cemaphonic]

89. Those first two are great!

I haven't found a whole lot of rap I like either, but I know good stuff is out there, since a lot of people whose musical judgment I respect have found it. So I keep my ears open.

[SeattleGirl]

5. It sure is!

I've heard some very good rap/hip-hop music.

[Symarip]

4. I live in Virginia

They have both types of music here:

Country AND Western.

[UndertheOcean]

8. Country IS music , but it suck nevertheless

There can be good rap , but its still not music.

[SeattleGirl]

10. So, what kind of music DO you like?

:shrug:

[UndertheOcean]

13. Baroque , Classical , Romantic, late Romantic , Atonal , Minimalism

I love Opera and lieder too.

In the pop/rock arena I like the fab four , elton john, kate bush . Thats pretty much it.

[SeattleGirl]

16. Those are all good genres.

I also like some rap and hip-hop too.

To each their own, huh?

[UndertheOcean]

18. What is Good rap ? what are the groups I need to concertrate on?

[SeattleGirl]

31. Here's something to try:

DUer MrScorpio has a radio show on Thursday evenings from 11:00 pm to 1:00 am eastern time on http://www.radioenigma.com/. Just click on the "listen" link.

He plays lots of different stuff, and plenty of good hip-hop. You may not like all of it, but you should check it out.

[ghostsofgiants]

53. You seem pretty predisposed to not like it, so I wouldn't bother.

Just don't go claiming shit like "It's not music." That just makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about.

[bicentennial_baby]

71. He/She almost drove me to post an ODB thread...

But, I figured that wouldn't go over with the more "sensitive" peeps... :P

[ghostsofgiants]

78. Do itttttttt!

:P

[provis99]

79. Atonal? Isn't that the very definition of non-music?

[cemaphonic]

88. He's talking about stuff like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKZt6nPrKJQ

Atonal in this sense means "not using diatonic harmonic or melodic construction" not "not music."

Of course, lots of people hate that stuff too.

[sasquatch]

21. What is it that Midlo listens to as she cruises town looking for hobo's to chase off?

[derby378]

6. I'm gonna tell Public Enemy you said that...

I'm no big fan of rap, either, but these guys helped make rap respectable as opposed to all these wannabe dickweeds running around today.

[Archae]

7. Will Smith is good.

[Juche]

9. Its not all bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-TToJwQwXg

[khashka]

11. Not really my thang

but some is good. When they have good use of words and can combine it with a good beat and a good melody it can work. There was one song years back that combined rap with jazz and 40s music - brilliant. But a lot of it is just really bad poetry and someone should take the microphone away.


Khash.

[Ptah]

12. To quote you:

:Every time I listen to it , to try and widen my horizon, I feel like puking,yuck.:

Then stop.

[UndertheOcean]

15. But what if their is a gem, a masterpiece , that I may never discover

because I was close minded

[Ptah]

20. balance

[Starbucks Anarchist]

108. I could help you out there.

If it's the act of rapping by itself that you don't like, I can point you to many music-only hip-hop albums that stand out.

One of my favorite albums is "Endtroducing..." by DJ Shadow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endtroducing.....

[tjwmason]

112. There are thousands of musical gems which you will never discover

Across many different genres for the simple fact that nobody can have the resources to discover them all.

You've identified a group of genres where you tend to enjoy the music, by chasing after potentially illusive gems in genres which you don't particularly like you'll be missing gems in those which you do tend to like.

Calling genre-based preferences closed minded is just silly; calling rap non-music is, however, closed minded.

[Madrone]

14. You are so wrong.

Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnevMn60Unk

[UndertheOcean]

26. u know , that IS actually good. The music on its own is still garden variety still

[Madrone]

29. I chose them because they are a BAND.

A Rap BAND, can you dig it? :P

Their album "Come Alive" is one of my all time favorites. I'm a huge hip-hop/rap fan from way back - and I'm sure I like things in that genre you would not. The Roots are pretty damned amazing though, and most "rap haters" can appreciate them because ...well... they're a BAND. ;)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

51. I saw them live.

Black Thought autographed a few of my Roots CDs, too. :D

[Madrone]

62. I'm jealous. Completely.

Autographed cds?

Wanna get married? :D

[Starbucks Anarchist]

65. Sure, why not?

;)

[Greyskye]

134. The curtain pullers are outstanding!

:evilgrin:

[bicentennial_baby]

17. Check out

Gza, Liquid Swords...

Trust me. :)

Guru, Jazzmatazz

DJ Krush, although not rap, very cool...

Wu Tang 36 Chambers...

Much more

[SeattleGirl]

19. Wu Tang!

Love it!

[bicentennial_baby]

25. For you:

:D

[SeattleGirl]

34. Hehe!

:loveya:

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Heehee...

:rofl:

and as the GZA would say...I'm low key like seashells...I rock these bells. :D

:loveya:

[Number23]

95. Too funny!

((humming "cash rules everything around me..."))

[ghostsofgiants]

46. Wu-Tang is for the children!

[UndertheOcean]

22. noted !

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. Speaking of Wu-Tang...

http://www.236.com/news/2008/06/11/obama_inspiration_finally_find_1_7098.php

The last track at the bottom.

[bicentennial_baby]

41. !

zOMG!! :rofl:

[Robeson]

23. Lyrics are part and parcel of "music"....

...and much of "rap" provides plenty.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

35. Whoa!

I don't think that's what the OP meant.

I hate heavy metal stuff, but that doesn't mean I hate white men.

[harmonicon]

63. yeah...

there's a lot of music that I don't like. Not liking heavy metal doesn't mean that you hate white men, but you aren't denying it a place as a legitimate cultural expression as music, which the OP did. I don't think that he meant it that way, but that's what it is. The sentiment is no different from imperial powers destroying indigenous musics in the lands they conquered and replacing it with other music, because their music is what "music" is.

[SeattleGirl]

91. Sorry, but I don't agree with you.

I don't think the OP was trying to deny people any type of music. He was only saying he didn't like the kind of rap he heard. And maybe he will never like it. Never know.

And, I think that most people don't wander down the road of where music came from, or how it may have been co-opted by others. I think it's more along the line of, "I don't know art, but I know what I like."

I think you are assigning motives to the OP that really aren't there.

[harmonicon]

155. no, he didn't just say that he didn't like it

He said that it's "not music", and I call B.S. - that is the worst kind of value judgement that can be made. He could have said, "I don't like rap", but he said that it's "not music", and I won't stand for it. There is no excusing that.

[newmajority]

70. OK then.... how about heavy metal NOT by white men?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxU6aDJAKUU

[SeattleGirl]

90. Still hate heavy metal.

Don't hate any race that plays it though. :)

[UndertheOcean]

37. Thats a bit extreme

[harmonicon]

66. really?

That's extreme? Wouldn't you say that discounting and dismissing as "not music" the shared culture of tens of millions of people around the globe is "extreme"? I think one is far more extreme than the other.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

42. Rap is far from the only music created by black people.

I don't think the OP is racist at all.

[ghostsofgiants]

47. Nope, just musically ignorant.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

48. Heh.

;)

[ghostsofgiants]

50. You had to know I'd show up when I noticed this thread, haha.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. I had just assumed you'd be first to respond.

:rofl:

[ghostsofgiants]

54. I was busy playing Silent Hill 4.

Accursed video games cutting into my yelling-about-music-on-the-internet time.

[ContraBass Black]

208. I'm glad you're here, so that I can just move along.

[harmonicon]

72. it's not that simple

This is about cultural imperialism. Saying that "rap is not music" is an attack on culture as a whole, and denies cultures, and thus individuals within that culture, equality in discourse. Doing so is dehumanizing, and it's something that I take very seriously. I personally hate almost all music, but it is what I've dedicated my life to. I make music which I would venture to say most people would, at least at first, say is "not music". The culture in which I operate is made up of a few thousand people at most, and we all collectively defend it. For this reason, along with a general concern I have for social justice, I will defend any cultural expression as being equally valid to any other.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

107. Yes, it is that simple.

Even if saying "rap is not music" is an attack on culture, it's an attack on hip-hop culture, not black people as a whole.

Even putting aside the fact that many rap/hip-hop artists are white or otherwise non-black, saying "rap is not music" is not quite the same as denying the African-American culture.

Besides, you said that you yourself "hate almost all music," so wouldn't that make you a denier of many cultures, particularly AA culture, since almost every musical genre has its roots in black artists?

[harmonicon]

156. disliking music is not the same as denying it a place to exist, which the OP did

You're the one who's mentioning black people, something which I didn't do. I'm just saying that denying the equality of one culture to that of another (which is what negating rap as appropriate musical expression is doing) is racist. Race and culture are things in which we self-identify. Race is a cultural construct, but is often perceivable because of other external aspects of the cultures in which people live. To deny a person their culture an equal place with one's own is to dehumanize them based on chosen cultural identifiers, one of which is race. To say "rap is not music" is to say that those engaged in the culture in which rap is music are not experiencing the same things as those engaged in music within other cultures.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

197. You called the OP racist, and rap was created and primarily performed by black people.

You can keep twisting your Pop Sociology 101 clusterfuck of a post, or you can admit that you called the OP a racist, which in the context of rap music, would imply the OP is racist against black people.

You also claimed upthread that you "hate almost all music," so wouldn't that make you a "racist," too?

[fishwax]

198. Starbucks Anarchist, there is a difference between not liking a kind of music and

saying that it is not music. The former is merely a statement of opinion about a kind of music (as is Harmonicon's statement about hating most music); the latter, on the other hand, denies that expression's validity. The OP may well have meant the former, but he *said* the latter: "rap is not music."

Saying "tofu isn't food" is not the same as saying "I don't like tofu." (No surprise that the former is sometimes used to belittle vegetarianism.)

When Truman Capote said of Kerouac's On the Road, "that's not writing, it's typing," he meant not just to say that he didn't enjoy the book, but that the book (and other texts like it) doesn't deserve consideration as art. It's not legitimate.

The same is true of the comment that rap isn't music. It's not merely an opinion about the music. I'm not saying that the OP is racist, but I do think that these distinctions are important and worth making.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

201. But that got muddled in harmonicon's post when he cried racism.

It totally destroyed any point he was trying to make, the main thrust of which was a bizzare rant about demeaning a culture.

And I don't even think the OP literally meant rap wasn't music. This is the Lounge, after all, not a sociology class. People take things way too literally.

[fishwax]

202. I think it is demeaning a culture

to say that rap isn't music. That's exactly why it's an important distinction to make.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the message was clouded. I know the gist of the deleted message, but I didn't see the exact text. For what it's worth, I agree with the sentiment that to deny rap is music is racist. I don't think that means the OP is racist, I think he likely just chose his words poorly.

My point in entering this subthread was just to stand up for the importance of the distinction, because none of the posters who have responded negatively to Harmonicon seem to acknowledge that distinction at all.

This is actually a very common development in threads about racism. One person will point about an insensitive sentiment ("denying the legitimacy of rap music as an art form is racist"). Others will respond not to that particular analysis, but to a distorted version of that analysis ("oh, so anyone who doesn't like rap is a racist"). This new distortion becomes the focus of the discussion, at the expense of the legitimate complaint. That's how the noise machine often works. If it's true that harmonicon's point got unintentionally muddled in the deleted message, it's also true that the point has been unintentionally muddled by responses which have heretofore failed to acknowledge that crucial distinction between not liking a certain kind of music and denying its validity.

And I don't even think the OP literally meant rap wasn't music. This is the Lounge, after all, not a sociology class. People take things way too literally.

This sounds a little bit like the "some people are too sensitive" comment, which is another way that discussion of racism (particularly institutional racism) is often shouted down. I'm certain you didn't mean it that way, but my point is that it's only natural that different people will have different things that they are sensitive to, and since (as he's stated elsewhere) harmonicon is a professional musician, it's not surprising that he might be alert to the function of language in this case. I don't think the OP meant that literally, either, but the thread title is what it is, and it's not unfair for someone to respond to it accordingly. Just because it's the lounge doesn't mean that language isn't important :)

:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

203. So you agree with his assessment?

For what it's worth, I agree with the sentiment that to deny rap is music is racist.

Harmonicon played dumb when I said he was accusing the OP of being racist against black people because of the rap argument.

So if someone loves jazz and claims it's music and also says rap is not music, how are they racist, especially considering both genres were created by black people?

This sounds a little bit like the "some people are too sensitive" comment, which is another way that discussion of racism (particularly institutional racism) is often shouted down. I'm certain you didn't mean it that way, but my point is that it's only natural that different people will have different things that they are sensitive to, and since (as he's stated elsewhere) harmonicon is a professional musician, it's not surprising that he might be alert to the function of language in this case. I don't think the OP meant that literally, either, but the thread title is what it is, and it's not unfair for someone to respond to it accordingly. Just because it's the lounge doesn't mean that language isn't important.

Actually, some people are too sensitive -- not when we're discussing racism, etc., but on subjects like rap music in the Lounge -- and they need to get over themselves before their poutrage short-circuits their brain.

[fishwax]

205. like i said

I think that denying rap is music is racist. (To be more precise, I should say that I think denying rap is music is to buy into/adopt/borrow a structure of racist thought that diminishes non-white cultural expression.) That doesn't mean that I think anyone who says rap isn't music is a racist. I think most people who would say something like that probably just haven't thought much about language (which would hardly make them unusual).

So if someone loves jazz and claims it's music and also says rap is not music, how are they racist, especially considering both genres were created by black people?

Well, first of all, liking jazz doesn't automatically mean that someone is not a racist. I would imagine there have been many people over time who harbored racist attitudes and also liked jazz. "I'm not racist--I like jazz" sounds even more absurd as a defense than "I'm not racist--I have black friends."

That caveat aside, I wouldn't know whether such a person is racist or not. What I would know is that (a) they apparently like jazz and (b) they either choose their words regarding rap quite poorly or they genuinely deny the validity of rap as musical expression. I think that denying the validity of rap as musical expression smacks of racism.

Actually, some people are too sensitive -- not when we're discussing racism, etc., but on subjects like rap music in the Lounge -- and they need to get over themselves before their poutrage short-circuits their brain.

Perhaps the whole lounge should lighten up, but that seems unlikely. :shrug: People do, after all, get worked up here over the strangest things, and I find denying the validity of rap as musical expression slightly more worthy of response than, say, rolling chicken in cornflakes. Meanwhile, I still think it's worth thinking seriously about language, even in the lounge. :)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

206. What?

Well, first of all, liking jazz doesn't automatically mean that someone is not a racist. I would imagine there have been many people over time who harbored racist attitudes and also liked jazz. "I'm not racist--I like jazz" sounds even more absurd as a defense than "I'm not racist--I have black friends."

That caveat aside, I wouldn't know whether such a person is racist or not. What I would know is that (a) they apparently like jazz and (b) they either choose their words regarding rap quite poorly or they genuinely deny the validity of rap as musical expression. I think that denying the validity of rap as musical expression smacks of racism.

Well, let's assume the best in people and say this hypothetical person isn't a racist and likes jazz but dismisses rap as non-music.

Then how would you explain that re: racism?

[fishwax]

207. Then, as I said in my previous post, I would assume they chose their words about rap poorly

What I would know is that (a) they apparently like jazz and (b) they either choose their words regarding rap quite poorly or they genuinely deny the validity of rap as musical expression. I think that denying the validity of rap as musical expression smacks of racism.

If we're assuming the best about the hypothetical jazz fan, then I guess it would be a matter of them not thinking much about what their words really suggest.

As it happens, I do tend to assume the best in people, which is why I assumed the OP didn't mean to literally deny the validity of rap as music, why I assumed that harmonicon had a more substantial and nuanced point in mind than what some were reacting to, and why I assumed that, when I saw you and harmonicon apparently talking past one another, you might be receptive to a discussion of the actual nuances involved in the language in this thread :)

:hi:

[fishwax]

124. I agree with you that there is a huge difference b/w saying one "hates X music" and "X is not music"

I'm not sure the OP intended the full weight of the latter, but most people don't think about that difference. That doesn't make it any less important as a distinction, though, and I think it's certainly a worthwhile effort to point it out.

[harmonicon]

157. thank you

I wish I could be as polite and to the point about this as you have just been. well said.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

144. Jazz, anyone?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Zavulon]

74. Just out of curiousity,

if I detest and mock country music, which I do, am I a racist?

For the record, I do think rap is music - I just think it sucks. However, it's not only blacks who create rap. There are more whites who do rap than blacks who do country.

Given the choice between the two, rap wins by default because I hate country more than any other form of music. Does this mean I hate whites and refuse to admit the validity of white culture? If so, I've been self-loathing for decades and didn't even know it! :)

[harmonicon]

80. detest and mock all you want

But to deny it, I'd say that is racist. "Racism" is a dicey word, I suppose, but the idea of race was invented for purposes of cultural exclusion. Race is a cultural construct, and just the idea of what constitutes "white" and "black" have changed within the last century, and probably even more recently than that. Denying one culture's musical expression equal validity to another's is dehumanizing and insulting. In the specific case of rap, it is an indigenous music of the Americas, just as country and jazz are. With each of these types of music there is a debate about the race of forefathers of the music, but that likely misses the fact that ideas of race were different 100 years ago when some of this music was first made. When rap music started 30 - 40 years ago the conditions which created it were different than those today. The people making the music today are all over the world and of all different sorts. However, had it's creators couldn't have had this exposure to cultural growth an exchange if they had been denied rap as a form of music.

[Zavulon]

94. Amazing.

It can't just be that the OP hates the music, he apparently hates blacks, too.

Amazing.

You know what I want for my birthday? A list of things someone can say that CAN'T be twisted to the point where the speaker can be called racist. I can't imagine that the list would consist of more than ten or twelve items, so I should be able to fit it in my wallet.

Quick question: if I think ridiculously large watches and absurd amounts of jewelry look stupid, does that make me a racist? Also, if I think wearing a baseball cap sideways makes a person look like a severely retarded douchebag, does THAT make me a racist? If I think letting one's pants droop down far enough so that one's underwear is visible makes him look like a complete asshole, does THAT make me a racist? White kids do these things too, but then again white people perform rap and anyone who hates rap MUST be a racist.

Before you write off my questions as snide mockery like you did with your last post (in an apparent effort to duck my perfectly valid question about country music), be advised that I'm quite serious about every question I've asked so far. I'm at my wit's end because of something that happened about three weeks ago: I said aloud that I think Popeye's chicken sucks, and I was actually called a racist for it. Since I hate seafood of all kinds, this apparently means that I also hate the Japanese. Now I find out that anyone who doesn't like rap is a racist, too.

Amazing.

By the way, I'm sure you'll write this question off as as snide, but what about a certain buddy of mine who just doesn't like music at all (he does not own and has never owned an album, cassette or CD - he really just has no regard for music)? Does that make him a misanthrope?

Also, if I hate teen pop, does that mean I hate children?

Amazing.

[jobycom]

122. I'd answer "maybe" to at least to some of those questions about race.

Racism isn't just hating someone for the color of their skin. That happens, but it's not the most dangerous type of racism these days, since it can be so easily identified and overcome. Racists hate based on identity, not just skin tone, and that identity is often tied up in cultural expressions--music, dress, language, cuisine, attitudes, and all other forms of expression.

It was really popular when I was growing up in Mississippi in the 70s to say "I don't hate all black people, I just hate 'N's. Not all black people are 'N's." What that platitude meant was that black people who acted like white people in terms of dress, language, etc, were acceptable, but that anyone easily identified as black was hated. The identity and expressions of cultural identity were hated. The South was very complicated then (still is), and sometimes that attitude was a positive step towards rejecting racism--it was at least an attempt to begin to change. For others, though, it was a stubborn way to hold on to racism while justifying it as not racist. "I don't hate black people for being black, just for acting black." That's just as bad, maybe worse, as the old-school segregationist attitudes, because it is still attacking identity, it is still dehumanizing.

That form of racism may even be worse than the old separatist attitudes. Old separatists didn't want to eliminate African Americans, they just wanted to keep them "in their place," which usually meant segregated and somewhere else. In some ways they wanted to keep black people around, to prove their own superiority (and for cheap labor). The second type of racism, the "I hate people who act black" type, the Pat Buchanan/Rush Limbaugh type, wants to eliminate black people altogether. They don't want to kill off all people with black skin--heck, I know one who is voting for Obama--but they want to make all black people fit the white people mold, so there are no more black people who act black. They don't hate black people, they just hate everything that black people do that isn't what white people do, and they dehumanize those who do these "non-white" things.

That's still racism. That's the racism that puts African Americans in prison twice as often as and for far longer than white people performing the same acts. That's the racism that keeps black neighborhoods poor by charging exhorbitant interests rates on home loans. That's the type of racism that hires black applicants last, promotes them more slowly, pays them lower wages, and lays them off first. That's the type of racism that lets CNN blame 60,000 "overvoted" ballots in Florida on stupid black people who just couldn't figure out how to vote properly, rather than investigating how those ballots were really overvoted.

I don't know if you're a racist, and I don't know if the OP is a racist. I have to say that when I first read the OP, that was my first thought. When I read your post, I got a bit uncomfortable, I have to admit. But I won't call either of you a racist based on a few lines in a thread that's gotten a little out of hand. But you both say things and ask rhetorical questions that I've come to associate with racism. Can you hate rap, can you hate sideways caps, can you hate baggy pants, etc? Sure, you can, but it's the denial of these things as valid forms of expression ("rap isn't music") and the grouping of them as related that makes me uncomfortable. You don't do that, but I'd be lying if I said your questions didn't make my skin crawl a little bit. My first impression of anyone who went on a rant like yours would be to suspect them of racism, as much for the "why's everyone always calling me a racist" defensiveness as because of the questions. But I don't know you, and haven't noticed your posts before, so I wouldn't make an assumption like that. Plus you are on DU, so that's another mark on your side of the ledger.

As for your country music and seafood questions, they add to that impression by being disingenuous. First, you are still calling country music music, not denying its complete validity as an artistic expression. Second, there's not a history of hating white people in this country on any grand scale, nor of oppression, nor of denying their culture, nor of forcing them to live in segregated poverty that they were at times legally forbidden from escaping. Certainly there were groups of white people--Irish, Italians, Hispanic (depending on how they are classified at any given time and by any given group)--who have faced or are facing horrible discrimination. But nothing, not even close, to what African Americans have experienced in this nation. The only group close to that are the Native Americans. So even if you did hate white people, it just wouldn't matter in the same way that racism against black people matters--it would not give you the collective and historical power to significantly alter the lives of large numbers of people. It might say bad things about you, but that's about it.

Second, country music has never been tied up as such a significant part of "white" culture as rap or hip hop are identified so closely with black culture. Third, groups who are clearly racist and white supremacist often attack rap and hip hop as "not music" or whatever, as a way to illustrate, in their pathetic minds, that black culture is inferior, or as I've heard them say, a pale attempt at imitation, to white culture. These same groups attack baggy pants and backwards caps and fried chicken and watermellon (which may be what got you in trouble with the Popeye's comment, though without the context, who can say). These attacks on culture go way back. Rock was hated for the same reasons. Jazz and blues were hated for the same reasons. Much of African American culture through our nation's history has been ridiculed as inferior or deviant, just before being adopted by white youth and made into mainstream culture in the next generation. (I've even heard arguments that the only significant cultural achievements of America have come from African American culture).

So what I'm saying is I don't know if you or the OP are racist, or have a degree of racism in you. I don't know either of you, and couldn't and wouldn't make a judgement like that. But the questions you ask and the denouncement the OP makes are exactly the kind I've grown up associating with racism. You press the wrong buttons, in other words, with the statements, questions, and even defensive attitude. THAT's why the accusation has been made about the OP, and that's why your questions don't help to defend him. They don't mean you're racist, by any means. They just are used by racists so often they make one nervous. I'm rather impressed, frankly, that this thread didn't turn into one long accusation of racism, and that so many people took the OP at face value of simply expressing a musical preference.

No, I don't expect you'll like my post, and I apologize for that. But you seem to want a thoughtful answer to it, and I've tried to provide one, without accusation or namecalling, and with honesty. If you've read this far, thanks, and I hope you understand the spirit of my post, which isn't meant to attack or accuse, just to analyze, explain, and discuss.

[Carnea]

128. Actually disagreeing with elements in so called african american culture is not racist.

Most successful blacks vehemently disagree with an element of African American culture you seem to defend here.

Defending the calling of woman ho's, the use of the "n" word, the anti intellectual stances or the I am owed something attitude prevalent among certain load subsets of this culture does African American culture no favors.

I no more think most rap is indicative of African American culture than Jerry Springer is of white culture.

I like Jazz so I must be pro black I hate rap so I must be racist. I like golf so I must be pro white I hate wrestling so I must be anti-white. See how silly that sounds.

Certain elements of African American culture are inferior and detrimental to African Americans. the success of African immigrants not burden by some of the more damaging African American culture baggage seems to prove this. In fact one such man will be president of the United States next year.\

Maybe that event will insure those effected by certain elements of African American culture to discard them. And if they can get rid of Jerry Springer while they are at it I would be appreciative.

Hating wrap music doesn't mean you hate black people. It probably means you like black people and think they deserve better than this racist misogynist defeatist crap.

[jobycom]

136. Pretty much misses my point with extreme dichotomies that weren't the issue.

I'm not claiming that disliking certain aspects of any culture is hatred of that culture. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm claiming that blanket statements completely denying the validity of a certain aspect of a culture might be racist, when put in a larger context. I said I didn't know enough about the poster to know if he/she was racist.

It is racist to deny an entire culture's validity, just as completely as hating a person because of their skin color. I didn't say that the OP or the poster I responded to had done that. I said their statements raised that reaction in me, and explained why, and concluded that I didn't know enough about them to accuse them of that.

All that "I hate this, I must be this" is a straw man unrelated to anything I posted or responded to.

I will ask you about your last statement, though. "Hating wrap music doesn't mean you hate black people. It probably means you like black people and think they deserve better than this racist misogynist defeatist crap." Rap music (glad you disagree with the OP on that) is not all "racist misogynist defeatist crap," as this thread has pointed out with many examples. Much of it is a powerful statement about society's ills, performed with a driving delivery that emphasizes the anger and frustration of the artist. Much of it can be uplifting and positive, celebrating music, art, identity, even love and sexualtiy. Yet you wrap it all together, equate it with the lowest denominator, and say black people deserve better. To take a page from the misdirected dichotomies that people keep throwing out, would you describe rock music as "misogynist defeatist crap" and say all white people deserve better after hearing "Fuck me like you hate me?"

[Carnea]

141. Bad music is bad on its own.

I even like some music I know is horrible examples below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ENPA6F1Hg Toxic Britney Spears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ25-glGRzI Girlfriend Avril Lavigne

Can I defend either song rationally no of course not. Am I the target audience Hell no. but it is a guilty pleasure like disco. :evilgrin:

As for wrap there are some I like such as

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CszG_bR35Mw Spearhead hole in the bucket.

But in truth I prefer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7WASrQFg8o Michael Franti & SpearHead Yell Fire

The problem I have is if you criticize any particular song or even genre you are often labeled raciest when the opposite is the truth. I'm tired of third rail political correctness.

I appreciate intelligent conversation and I want to thank you for that.

Peace

[jobycom]

149. That didn't address my last question.

I wasn't talking about criticizing individual songs, and not even about criticizing specific genres.

[Carnea]

151. Would I describe rock music that way no..... I would describe country that way.

I have the same level of disinterest in CMT as I do BET. I find both unfortunate but I understand different strokes for different folks.

What those crazy white people want to do with their big hair and faux patriotism is their business but It doesn't make me a racist to say that trailer trash cousin marrying uneducated fucks need to get out of Washington and go back to whatever flyover slum they crawled out of.

An that attitude makes me an elitist. And that is something I can often be guilty off. (and I might add proud off) But I am not racist about it. I look down on both white and black people.

[jobycom]

163. Well

As a southern redneck with the type of family most country songs are about, I guess I can respect that. As long as you hate everyone, you can't really be a racist! :rofl:

[Zavulon]

170. And therein lies the problem.

People can't just think something looks ridiculous anymore - if the thing in question is ever practiced by a minority, then the speaker MUST be racist, even if white people practice said annoying habit as well.

I'll answer excerpts of your post, only because I don't have the time to answer the whole thing:

Racism isn't just hating someone for the color of their skin. That happens, but it's not the most dangerous type of racism these days, since it can be so easily identified and overcome. Racists hate based on identity, not just skin tone, and that identity is often tied up in cultural expressions--music, dress, language, cuisine, attitudes, and all other forms of expression.

This is sad - now cuisine is involved in the racism witch hunt. I hadn't even thought of that. I'll tell you flat out, I don't like Mexican or Indian food at all, but I love Chinese and Italian. There are, no doubt, people who would call me a racist because of the way my taste buds are wired.

It was really popular when I was growing up in Mississippi in the 70s to say "I don't hate all lack people, I just hate 'N's. Not all black people are 'N's." What that platitude meant was that black people who acted like white people in terms of dress, language, etc, were acceptable, but that anyone easily identified as black was hated. The identity and expressions of cultural identity were hated. The South was very complicated then (still is), and sometimes that attitude was a positive step towards rejecting racism--it was at least an attempt to begin to change. For others, though, it was a stubborn way to hold on to racism while justifying it as not racist. "I don't hate black people for being black, just for acting black." That's just as bad, maybe worse, as the old-school segregationist attitudes, because it is still attacking identity, it is still dehumanizing.

If you're going where I think you're going (counting the things I mentioned as "acting black" and then maintaining that anyone who has any sort of problem with them - even merely thinking they look ridiculous), let me ask you this. My true formative years were in the 1970s, and the youth fashion styles then were just as bad as they are today. Bell bottoms, absurdly large shirt collars over Levi jacket collars, platform shoes - and like today, although such "fashion" was widely worn by blacks, it was worn by plenty of whites, too.

So, my question: can't I just think something looks stupid without having to break down the percentages of which demographic wears it more often?

Also, disco was the rage then, not rap. Lots of blacks played disco, but so did lots of whites. Can't I just say I dislike disco without making sure the percentage of black musicians playing it is higher than the percentage of whites playing it, or does it mean that if the black percentage is higher I'm now a racist?

That form of racism may even be worse than the old separatist attitudes. Old separatists didn't want to eliminate African Americans, they just wanted to keep them "in their place," which usually meant segregated and somewhere else. In some ways they wanted to keep black people around, to prove their own superiority (and for cheap labor). The second type of racism, the "I hate people who act black" type, the Pat Buchanan/Rush Limbaugh type, wants to eliminate black people altogether. They don't want to kill off all people with black skin--heck, I know one who is voting for Obama--but they want to make all black people fit the white people mold, so there are no more black people who act black. They don't hate black people, they just hate everything that black people do that isn't what white people do, and they dehumanize those who do these "non-white" things.

With all due respect, I think you're straying a bit from any point made by me or the OP, unless you're actually saying that my thinking the things I mentioned look ridiculous is an attempt to convert all black youth from dropping these fashion statements (without making white kids do the same) and conform to Whitey's sense of style.

That's still racism. That's the racism that puts African Americans in prison twice as often as and for far longer than white people performing the same acts.

No offense, but I'm tired of hearing this. It's a fact that proportionally, more blacks commit crimes than whites do. As for longer sentences, you'll need concrete proof that it's racism by judges and juries instead of the fact that the lion's share of blacks on trial have to rely on public defenders. This is an economic thing, not a race thing - proportionally, more blacks are poor, so more blacks commit crimes and then have to rely on mediocre lawyers with ridiculously high caseloads. That isn't racism unless you can prove otherwise. Feel free to consider it racism if you wish, but I consider it an economic problem. Maybe if we do something about poor urban neighborhoods there will be less minorities on trial, but whatever the case I believe conviction rates are inextricably tied to how much the lawyer is being paid.

That's the racism that keeps black neighborhoods poor by charging exhorbitant interests rates on home loans.

That's business. ANYONE with a low income rate and bad credit gets a higher interest rate (if they get the loan at all). Yet another charge without proof. Whites with low incomes and shitty credit records don't get any better rates than the blacks you're referring to. Banks charge as much as they can no matter who they're screwing. That isn't racism, it's greed. Your charge here is the sort of thing that makes me lose all hope for this country - if it isn't 100% favorable to the black man, it's seething racism. Well, to be honest, if I ran a bank I'd be charging the highest interest rate I could on anyone, not sorting through loan applications to find minorities I could really stick it to.

That's the type of racism that hires black applicants last, promotes them more slowly, pays them lower wages, and lays them off first.

As for the first part of this charge, you may have a point, but I don't think it's a point based on pure racism. I just read an article somewhere in which a bunch of small business owners in Florida admitted that given identical resumes for a black applicant and a white one, they'd hire the white - but not because they hate blacks or don't trust them. The reason: whites are less likely to file a wrongful termination suit (in other words, easier to get rid of if they turn out to be bad employees). As for the rest of this charge, I'd need to see some proof of it. I've heard charges like this thrown around, and have never seen them backed up. I'm not sure you can't, I'm just saying I'd like to see something on it.

That's the type of racism that lets CNN blame 60,000 "overvoted" ballots in Florida on stupid black people who just couldn't figure out how to vote properly, rather than investigating how those ballots were really overvoted.

I've never heard this, but if it's true (and the 60,000 can be demonstrated to be be black-only votes) I think I'd be willing to grant you this one. I do remember the Yahoo News pictures of the whites who "found" supplies and the blacks who "looted" them, so I do know there's some racism in the media.

I don't know if you're a racist, and I don't know if the OP is a racist. I have to say that when I first read the OP, that was my first thought. When I read your post, I got a bit uncomfortable, I have to admit.

Well, I'll come clean. I do think the things I mentioned look ridiculous. Extremely ridiculous. I also have a real dislike for rap. However, if you were to swing on by for a beer and a ballgame and you were to take a look at my CD collection, you'd find a boatload of Robert Cray, Albert Collins, B.B. King, a fair number of old MoTown artists and so on.

Rest assured, when I see a kid with baggy pants and visible underwear, 10+ pounds of jewelry and / or sideways ballcaps, I think it looks really fucking stupid whether it's a white kid or a black kid wearing it.

If you believe that a greater number (or even greater percentage) of black kids wear these things and that fact makes me a racist, then there isn't anything I can do about it and I won't bother to apologize for it. Looking for racism is like looking for violations on a driver's test - if you're determined to find racism or to flunk the license applicant, you can always find justifications that enough others are willing to buy to keep the thought afloat.

But I won't call either of you a racist based on a few lines in a thread that's gotten a little out of hand. But you both say things and ask rhetorical questions that I've come to associate with racism. Can you hate rap, can you hate sideways caps, can you hate baggy pants, etc? Sure, you can, but it's the denial of these things as valid forms of expression ("rap isn't music") and the grouping of them as related that makes me uncomfortable. You don't do that, but I'd be lying if I said your questions didn't make my skin crawl a little bit. My first impression of anyone who went on a rant like yours would be to suspect them of racism, as much for the "why's everyone always calling me a racist" defensiveness as because of the questions. But I don't know you, and haven't noticed your posts before, so I wouldn't make an assumption like that. Plus you are on DU, so that's another mark on your side of the ledger.

First of all, I never said "rap isn't music" - in fact, I said "Yes, it is. It sucks - a lot - but it is still music. Shitty music, but still music." That's my feeling about country music and salsa, too. None of that means I hate blacks, whites or Hispanics.

Second, I'm a bit shaky on what you refer to as "valid forms of expression" and the "denial" thereof. Just because I don't like certain styles of music or certain modes of youth fashion, how is that "denying" said forms of expression? Am I honestly required to like everything in order to be given credit for acknowledging it?

As for your country music and seafood questions, they add to that impression by being disingenuous.

They're not disingenuous at all, I meant them sincerely. You're just taking them that way.

First, you are still calling country music music, not denying its complete validity as an artistic expression.

As with rap, I'm calling country music "music" because it fits the dictionary definition of "music." So does techno, but I hate that form as well.

Second, there's not a history of hating white people in this country on any grand scale, nor of oppression, nor of denying their culture, nor of forcing them to live in segregated poverty that they were at times legally forbidden from escaping. Certainly there were groups of white people--Irish, Italians, Hispanic (depending on how they are classified at any given time and by any given group)--who have faced or are facing horrible discrimination. But nothing, not even close, to what African Americans have experienced in this nation. The only group close to that are the Native Americans. So even if you did hate white people, it just wouldn't matter in the same way that racism against black people matters--it would not give you the collective and historical power to significantly alter the lives of large numbers of people. It might say bad things about you, but that's about it.

Unfortunately, what you just said is exactly why this country will never live in racial harmony, and why all calls for "honest dialogues on race" are a farce. The whole country knows what you just said, but the past - which I'm NOT saying should be forgotten - is and always will be used as a crutch for those who want to cling to hate and bitterness.

I didn't grow up in Mississippi, I grew up in Quebec. I certainly didn't go through what stateside blacks did at the time, but as a kid who didn't speak French I had to learn to fight pretty quickly. Somehow, I got through to adulthood without hating French speakers. Now that I work in downtown DC, I can tell you that some of the urban blacks I've met are the most racist people I've ever known. I can't tell you how many times I've been called "white trash," "cracka motherfucker," and so on, and mostly for things like refusing to part with change or merely walking by someone. You speak as if whites skate on everything, but as someone who grew up in the south you can't be unaware of stereotypes which indicate that southern whites are uneducated white trash and Klansmen who suck on wheat stalks and have 50% or less of their original teeth. If you want to look for racism, there are plenty of rocks to turn over for everyone.

Second, country music has never been tied up as such a significant part of "white" culture as rap or hip hop are identified so closely with black culture.

Not white as a whole, but as for southern white America? We've all heard country music jokes, and the punchlines always refer to the "hayseeds" and "hicks" of southern white America.

Third, groups who are clearly racist and white supremacist often attack rap and hip hop as "not music" or whatever, as a way to illustrate, in their pathetic minds, that black culture is inferior,
or as I've heard them say, a pale attempt at imitation, to white culture.

What about groups who simply dislike the sound? I can name dozens of personal acquaintances who say "Christ, I can't stand rap," but not one who says "Christ, look at that pathetic attempt to transform an inferior culture into a cheap imitation of our superior one." Sorry, but I think you're reaching here. If you can name anyone who has actually said that and can provide a link, I'd love to see it. However, if it's someone like Pat Robertson, save yourself the trouble. Even your most ardent hater of whites would have to admit that Robertson is a racist abberation, not representative of whites as a whole.

These same groups attack baggy pants and backwards caps and fried chicken and watermellon (which may be what got you in trouble with the Popeye's comment, though without the context, who can say). These attacks on culture go way back.

I take it, then, that even though you're not willing to write me off as a racist based on one or two posts that you've seen from me, you believe that the overwhelming majority of those who attack baggy pants or sideways caps are, in fact, racists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's definitely the impression I'm under.

Rock was hated for the same reasons.

What? You just said "there's not a history of hating white people in this country on any grand scale," and rock is and always has been performed by whites far more often than blacks. PLEASE give me an example of how "rock was hated for the same reasons." What were whites picked on for when it comes to rock?

Jazz and blues were hated for the same reasons.

I'm not sold on this, either. In the days of white and black water fountains, white and black bus seats and so on, there were still lots of black performers who were universally loved in this country. I admit that I don't know much about the history of these forms of music, I know only that they're well represented in my CD collection (blues in particular), but I'd like to see some evidence of what you say here. I'm not saying I'm sure you're wrong, but I am saying that this is the first I've heard of it.

Much of African American culture through our nation's history has been ridiculed as inferior or deviant, just before being adopted by white youth and made into mainstream culture in the next generation. (I've even heard arguments that the only significant cultural achievements of America have come from African American culture).

I would argue that your last statement here is as racist as anything you've accused me or the OP of saying - actually, more so.

So what I'm saying is I don't know if you or the OP are racist, or have a degree of racism in you. I don't know either of you, and couldn't and wouldn't make a judgement like that. But the questions you ask and the denouncement the OP makes are exactly the kind I've grown up associating with racism. You press the wrong buttons, in other words, with the statements, questions, and even defensive attitude.

What you call a "defensive attitude," I call "Christ, not this shit again - isn't it possible to just dislike something without being accused of hating a whole race?" I view these claims of racism as a verbal form of the Chinese water torture - eventually, it makes you want to scream. There's a whole lot of crying wolf going on with accusations of racism, and the bullshit claims mask the valid ones effectively enough that a lot of us just don't want to hear it anymore, even when it's warranted.

What bothers me, though, is how you wrote off my questions as disingenuous. Anyone who tries to defend himself in the face of racism claims is obviously a racist, I've heard (sort of like denial is the first sign of denial). I was quite sincere, but you'll note that the person who I posed them to has made no effort to answer them - and you just wrote them off as being flippant. Think about that the next time you hear some naive dupe calling for an "honest dialogue about race."

THAT's why the accusation has been made about the OP, and that's why your questions don't help to defend him.

No, my questions don't help merely because anyone who makes a claim of racism is going to cling to it. NO questions would help.

They don't mean you're racist, by any means. They just are used by racists so often they make one nervous.

My question about country music is "so often" used by racists? Another new one on me. In fact, I had no idea that ANY of my questions were used "so often" by racists. I'm sure if they have been, though, they've all been dismissed as snide shots rather than taken at face value.

I'm rather impressed, frankly, that this thread didn't turn into one long accusation of racism, and that so many people took the OP at face value of simply expressing a musical preference.

Maybe because that's what it was. Maybe my laughing at sideways ball caps is the same thing.

No, I don't expect you'll like my post, and I apologize for that. But you seem to want a thoughtful answer to it, and I've tried to provide one, without accusation or namecalling, and with honesty. If you've read this far, thanks, and I hope you understand the spirit of my post, which isn't meant to attack or accuse, just to analyze, explain, and discuss.

Actually, I thought your post was very thoughtful, civil, respectful, insightful and all the other positive stuff that goes into something well-written. You seem to believe it's possible to dislike something just on face value rather than on a racial level, but I get the impression that you think such cases are the exception to the rule. I didn't dislike your post, although as you can see in some cases I don't agree and in others not willing to simply accept blanket assertions without backup. Quite frankly, the questions I've raised are questions I've never heard before, but while you write them off as disingenuous the person I posed them to is sidestepping them.

Basically, what I've come away with from this thread and others is that anyone who launches an accusation of racism (which you didn't, I know) is unwilling to discuss it. You're willing to discuss it, but you're also not jumping to the immediate conclusion that the OP and I are racists. YHou'd better watch out, because genuine race-baiters might well take your open mind towards anyone accused of racism (not just the OP, I mean anyone) AS racism.

Now if the OP had claimed that all rap music is about killing cops, doing drugs and "bangin' ho's," I'd be right there with those making accusations of racism. However, I firmly believe that the OP dislikes the sound, irrespective of race. So do I.

That said, it's nothing we're going to solve today, and I've got to hit the road and be at the mall in 25 minutes or the young lady I live with will make accusations of racism seem like a stroll through the park. Thanks for taking the time to reply with reason and not hysteria.

:hi:

[nomorenomore08]

176. "You're a racist!" "No, YOU'RE a racist!"

[Zavulon]

178. Good choice of picture.

I wish the post that my original post was responding to hadn't been deleted. You should have seen it.

[harmonicon]

160. what's amazing is the way in which you've missed the point

If you said that a ridiculously large watch didn't tell time, you'd just be a fucking idiot, and that's a better analogy. I could care less what watch you like, but to say that one tells time and that another doesn't would be absurd.

[Zavulon]

169. What's amazing is how non-applicable your post is to mine.

If you're refusing to answer my questions, fine - but I don't understand why you're babbling on about if the watch tells time or not. That's not even remotely relevant to my point, and it's only thinly tied to one of my points.

Will you answer my questions or not? Does me not liking the things I mentioned make me a racist in your eyes or not?

[fishwax]

174. did anyone actually say that not liking rap makes someone a racist

You keep implying that people are saying this, but I'm not seeing it.

[Carnea]

175. Try post #122. NT

[fishwax]

180. post #122 doesn't say that not liking rap makes you racist n/t

[Zavulon]

177. Yes.

Look at my first post in this thread and trace your way up to what I'm responding to. You'll see "deleted message." I wish it was still there. You may or may not agree with what I'm writing, but I can assure you that the accusation was there. I wouldn't have bothered with that first post at all if the accusation was not clear and unequivocal.

[fishwax]

179. I don't know--the poster who had that post deleted has said quite clearly that there's nothing

wrong with hating a specific kind of music. It seems to me that poster took issue with the suggestion that rap is not really music, not with the suggestion that rap isn't good music.

[Zavulon]

181. You really should have seen the post before it was deleted.

I may have strong opinions, but I don't go looking for a fight. The accusation was clear, I assure you. I wouldn't have gotten involved on an implication that could go either way.

[fishwax]

183. but you've said similar things in response to posts/posters who said no such thing

and all of Harmonicon's remaining posts say otherwise.

I think there is, as I've stated elsewhere on this subthread, a difference between not liking rap and claiming that it isn't even music--but it's true that I didn't see the deleted message, so I'll never really know what it said ...

[Zavulon]

184. Fine.

There was no overt accusation of racism, I just grabbed on to the most tenuous reference I could, twisted it my own way and jumped right in because I was itching for a fight.

And even though I made it clear that I wasn't accusing jobycom of calling me a racist (Quote: "Basically, what I've come away with from this thread and others is that anyone who launches an accusation of racism (which you didn't, I know) is unwilling to discuss it"), and even though the name was removed from the original post and you don't even know who wrote it, it's only fair to assume that there was no such accusation against the OP and I simply wanted to stir up shit because I had nothing better to do.

Okay?

Have the last word if you want, because I've already spent way too much time on this. I saw the original post and you didn't, but even though you admit you'll never know what was said, you've already made up your mind. Since I don't care either way, I cordially invite you to assume that I'm just being an asshole and that the post I responded to was little more than diplomatically reasonable sweetness and light.

[fishwax]

185. wow

There was no overt accusation of racism, I just grabbed on to the most tenuous reference I could, twisted it my own way and jumped right in because I was itching for a fight.

I never thought or suggested that you were just itching for a fight. :shrug:

And even though I made it clear that I wasn't accusing jobycom of calling me a racist ... and even though the name was removed from the original post and you don't even know who wrote it, it's only fair to assume that there was no such accusation against the OP and I simply wanted to stir up shit because I had nothing better to do.

I never thought or suggested that you accused jobycom of calling you a racist. :shrug:

I never thought or suggested that there were no accusations of racism in the deleted post.

It's true, the name has been removed. I concluded, perhaps inaccurately, that (based on the further development of the subthread) it was Harmonicon who had made the deleted post. Perhaps I was wrong about that. But regardless of who posted the deleted message, the fact remains that, while you have several times complained that merely not liking rap will draw accusations of racism, there are apparently no posts on this thread that currently say that.

I saw the original post and you didn't, but even though you admit you'll never know what was said, you've already made up your mind. Since I don't care either way, I cordially invite you to assume that I'm just being an asshole and that the post I responded to was little more than diplomatically reasonable sweetness and light.

Now that's just silly. I haven't "made up my mind" about that post b/c I didn't see it, and I certainly never said, suggested, or believed that the post you responded to initially was "little more than diplomatically reasonable sweetness and light." I'm not sure how you got that idea.

But I think that those who have spoken about racism through the rest of this subthread (jobycom and Harmonicon) have, in the posts that remain, consistently argued not (as your posts suggest) that it is racist to not like rap; rather they have argued that to deny rap is even really music at all is problematic.

[harmonicon]

193. ok, here's a recap

I could give a damn what someone likes or doesn't like. However, saying that one culture's music is not music is a racist and imperialist statement. I have yet to see some one even try to refute that point.

[harmonicon]

192. again, you've utterly missed the point

Try applying logic to your arguments next time, and maybe I'll respond in kind.

[Zavulon]

210. I doubt you'd respond at all.

I asked sincere and entirely reasonable questions, and you've bent over backwards to duck them.

You can have the last word. I won't be reading whatever you write; I've wasted way too much time on you and your drivel already.

[harmonicon]

211. You have yet to respond to anything that I've said

You come back with some crap about preferences and tastes and this and that, which has nothing to do with what the discussion is about. I've responded to you at every turn, but you refuse to engage with the real topic at hand. Your questions had nothing to do with my point, what-so-ever, but you put them up as a screen to ignore the real point of contention.

[Carnea]

101. Is there anything worse than french rap???? No

Are a lot of rap songs warmed of karaoke. Yes

Are a lot of rap song materialistic anti-woman screeds yes.

Does rap music suck more than say folk music? I other words I'm locked in a room and my choices are Little bow wow or Pete Seeger which makes me poke me eyes out with a fork faster. Doesn't matter I'm still blind.


I like some rap music. (Even though on another thread I claimed Rap Music was an oxymoron)

Is it racist to hate most rap music. No of course not anymore than it is raciest to hate Godzilla Films or French New Wave.

Many modern Rap "artists" are not musicians and are talentless fucks. But good lord the same thing could be said about heavy metal or pop or any genre.

Rap Music is like Chick flicks most are pain inducing awful but there are some diamonds that transcend the genre. Oh and fans will cry racism/sexism if you make blanket statements about the genre.

I don't know what the fuss is about the two best rap songs were by white people anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8 (First million selling rap song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEpNh2wm-28 (Greatest rap song of all time)







B-)

[JackBeck]

27. Yes, it is music, regardless if you like it or not.

There are other options, if you want to be a musical purist.

Gregorian chants or, more so, merely banging rocks together, if you want to go back that far.

[UrbScotty]

28. Agreed (nt)

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DS1]

110. How the hell can there be a deleted message over "Agreed (nt)"

:wtf:

[Forkboy]

30. Yes it is, it's just music that you don't like.

I don't like Opera, but I know it's music. Different strokes for different folks. :shrug:

[Lex]

32. Translated: "You kids get off my lawn!!!"

nt

[Symarip]

39. You were asking for examples

I typically listen to 60's Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae, Motown and Stax...

But one rap album I've always liked quite a bit is Paul's Boutique from The Beastie Boys. Probably one of my favorite albums of all time.

[crim son]

44. And e e cummings is not poetry.

You cannot be blamed for not getting it, but neither should you make blanket statements like the one in your OP. MHO, and I am not a huge rap fan, though now and again I hear something really poignant that equals any Roberta Flack song I loved as a girl.

[ghostsofgiants]

45. Nope, you're wrong.

Try again.

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. Excuse me, but, sometimes, GOPisEvil gives good advice.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7825450&mesg_id=7825450

:)

[MrScorpio]

56. Try the Roots, A Tribe Called Quest and Quasimoto

Some of my faves

[bicentennial_baby]

57. In honor of this thread I just purchased 3 Ol' Dirty songs on ITunes...

:woohoo:

N**ga Please

Shimmy Shimmy Ya

Got Your Money

:patriot:

It's that ODB type shit... :P

[ghostsofgiants]

59. Nice!

Have you seen Rock The Bells, by any chance?

[bicentennial_baby]

61. Nooo..Where can I get 'dat?

:D

"You give me your number, I call you up, you act like your pussy don't interrupt...I don't have no trouble with you fucking me, but I have a little trouble with you not fucking me..."

:rofl:

RIP ODB

Yes, I just spent all of my Feminist cred...Damnit. That's what I get for lovin' Osirus, aka Big Baby Jesus, aka Ol'Dirty Bastard...

:P

[ghostsofgiants]

67. Haha, it's a great song nevertheless.

I torrented it. Problably mininova.org, but I forget. Definitely on my list of DVDs I need to own. Suspenseful as hell, which is surprising for a documentary about a hip-hop concert, haha.

[bicentennial_baby]

68. I will seek it out...

Thanks! :D

[Number23]

96. omg!

The "Got Your Money" video was one of the best in the entire HISTORY of music video. Absolutely classic....

[Madrone]

69. Some good suggestions in this thread.

Here's another - my homeboy, Apollo's Sun.

http://www.myspace.com/apollossun

[Zavulon]

75. Yes, it is.

It sucks - a lot - but it is still music. Shitty music, but still music.

[Fox Mulder]

76. I think it's crap...

but I wouldn't go as far as calling it non-music. :shrug:

[ThomCat]

77. People said that about rock and roll in the 50s,

and then about heavy metal and punk.

You're just as right now as they were then. :shrug:

[ghostsofgiants]

85. In other words...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7826746&mesg_id=7826844

:P

[ThomCat]

116. That's a very good way of saying the same thing.

:P

[Sultana]

81. Who gave you the right to be the decider?

:eyes:

[Mojambo]

82. It's music. It's not really my bag, but it's absolutely music. n/t

[MrSlayer]

83. Most Metal musicians can play circles around the lesser genre musicians.

Your "even Metal" comment is ridiculous and insulting.

You want to hear some good rap? Check out some old school Rakim, the dude's flow itself is music. KRS-1, Chuck D, Ice Cube, BDK and a host of others are brilliant poets, artists and story tellers.

Rap is music, you just don't get it, you can't feel it. It's your loss.

[Athens30603]

84. Which is more musical...

Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?

-John Cage

[raouldukelives]

86. Many great rap artisits

I love the music but it did take awhile for it to grow on me. I'd have to say that if all I had ever heard was the top 40 stuff I would probably still not like it. Over the years groups like the Beasties, Solesides and PE really changed my listening habits.

Anyways, all the cool kids are into playing buildings now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1D30gS7Z8U&feature=related

[cemaphonic]

87. Minimalism eh,

I bet you could find a lot more people (like my wife) who would claim that this isn't music before they would claim rap isn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCZEckS5X94
They'd be wrong of course. Hell, Reich practically invented the sort of looped sampling that rap producers use all the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCZe6eL9gDE&feature=related

If you like 20th century classical, you must be familiar with Varese's Ionization. That's even more lacking in any melodic or harmonic content than about 99.99% of rap. Is it music?

[Phillycat]

97. So, because you don't like it, it's not music?

Seriously, you sound like a Republican.

[Blue_Tires]

99. someone reset the counter on the

"Days since the last 'Rap Sucks' thread in the lounge" to zero...:eyes: :nuke:

[Inchworm]

100. I'm not a fan of rap

but when new stuff comes out I give it a try again. It is music and all music is different, even in its own genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXwmDGJAB8

I've found this dude to have some ok rap that I can listen to over and over.

:hi:

[asthmaticeog]

102. You're wrong.

It's music. Nobody's requiring you to like it, but it's music.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

103. Why did I click on this thread

Ok so You don't like rap music,its not for you and you have decided that it sucks (it does'nt to some) then move on.Basing your opinion off of one song or few that you have heard is just stupid.Just like there are good or bad groups,singers,artists, songs you name it - in every genre of music,that one group,singer,artist or song does not represent the entire genre.I don't like Conway Twitty but I don't think country music songs because I love Shania Twain and Faith Hill.And I like Rascal Flatts too - and I like Jay Z and Kanye West. Everything is different.Its called DIVERSITY.

[Brewman_Jax]

104. The standard "I don't like it, so it isn't music"

in that case, metal and country ain't music, either/

[bertha katzenengel]

105. I know this thread has been up for quite a while but I have to add:

:popcorn:

[BlueJazz]

106. Not my thing really..(being a Jazz Musician) but I'd like it a lot more if...

..so much of it didn't have the Shitty drum beat attached to it.

I mean, usually...Rap has a downbeat that sounds like someone beating on a old tin shed. (Where in the hell did THAT come from??)

I think it would "Go Over" much better if the producers would let a good drummer play the beat (s) and do away with the
"stick hitting a tin can sound"

Other then that ...It's OK.. :)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

109. Check out The Roots.

A real hip-hop band with "?uestlove" on drums.

[BlueJazz]

111. Sure..Thanks....I'll do that!

[AlCzervik]

131. i love the Roots, that's on the loop right now.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

135. They just had a new album come out.

Which one are you playing?

[AlCzervik]

137. Phrenology. I may go to the indie music store this weekend and pick up their new one

i have been spending so much money though in the past month that i shouldn't be buying anything.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

139. That one was kind of disappointing to me.

Not a bad album, but way too much of a change from their previous ones.

[AlCzervik]

140. The seed is my favorite song off that album, i have some other songs from

their other albums but thats the only cd i have so far, my birthday is coming up so i'll be asking for a gift card to the indie music store from my husband.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

142. I bought a Cody Chestnutt double album because of that song.

I'll have to listen to it again, but it's a weird lo-fi R&B/hip-hop mix, and it has the original "Seed" song on it.

When's your b-day?

[AlCzervik]

143. it's in July, i'm trying not to think about it though.

:D

41, here i come.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

145. Is that an actual number?

:hide:

I kid, I kid. :P

[AlCzervik]

147. yes, that's the number that require a fire extinguisher when they bring the birthday cake out.

You suck.


:D

[Starbucks Anarchist]

148. Indeed, I do.

:rofl:

[Iggo]

113. I hate it, but it's music....(n/t)

[bigwillq]

114. It is music.

It's just music that you don't like.

[tjwmason]

115. I can't stand the stuff

It lacks just about everything I look for in my musical choices - that does not diminish its status as music by the slightest amount, it merely makes it into a genre of music which I don't particularly like.

[SteppingRazor]

117. Sure it is.

It has a beat, vocals, varying degrees of instrumentation ... what else would you call it? Hell, some of it (The Roots, for example) is all live instrumentation, just like your standard rock band.

I've heard this "rap is not music" bit before, and I've never understood it. It's a very difficult case to try to make, IMO.

[ghostsofgiants]

119. There was one person here back in the day who kept insisting that it wasn't music because...

There was no melody. Her husband was a professional drummer, so she knows these things. :eyes:

Needless to say, I laughed.

[unpossibles]

120. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but that's one of the most closed minded things I've read

it has rhythm and it has a melody, therefore it's music. Furthermore, people dance to it.

Sure, a lot of it sucks, but you can say the same about country, metal, pop, etc.

If you don't like something - or don't understand it - that's fine. But to say it's not music (or art) is silly.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

123. i dont like most rap but what i like/understand isnt the basis to decide

what is or is not music

[underpants]

125. Do you know why rap music is so ANGRY?

Because the guy with the rhythm and the melody didn't show up

[Book Lover]

126. Fail, epic

[Carnea]

159. I don't know a couple of hundred responces with half the folks partially agreeing

I wouldn't say fail. Certainly not on an epic scale. more of a Jay-z fail than a Falco fail.

[dolo amber]

127. Excuse me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRz0U619HYA

[China_cat]

129. As I always say

the 'c' in rap is silent.

[Greyskye]

130. Musical Rap

As much as I personally dislike rap as a genre, there are always exceptions to the rule.

Check out Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, featuring Victor Wooten on bass and vocals, Future Man on percussion, and the incredible Bela Fleck on banjo. :) http://youtube.com/watch?v=dqLbemgstQA&feature=related

The rap starts around 1:50. Extremely musical and socially aware/uplifting. Check it out!

[AlCzervik]

132. your threads are always entertaining to watch. Don't wanna look yet can't look away.

[sniffa]

162. You have to train your ear to appreciate the threads

:D

[AlCzervik]

165. D00d, i'm not a serf like you are! I keep Madame Butterfly on loud to drown out the cry of

the peasants that wander my estate.

I love the op's threads, like crack without the sweats.




:7

[DarkTirade]

133. 'Rap' in and by itself is just poetry with a rhythm... however most rap songs will try to at least

use music, if not adding some melody in some way shape or form to the rap itself.

[tigereye]

138. no, no, no not this stuff again!

:banghead:

Please listen to some old-style rap, some verbal styling, some ska, some poetry, and the internal rhyming.

Plus some hip-hop. It's music, it simply is.

[Zuiderelle]

146. Now, now, no need to attack him.

j/k :D

He just hasn't had good rap yet. :D

[tigereye]

152. it's just a really old lounge argument...

[Zuiderelle]

158. Oh, I know.

I was attempting humor. :)

[grace0418]

150. So you have to like in order for it to be called music?

I'm not crazy about most rap (although there is some stuff I like here and there) but it's still music. I can't stand most modern country and western yet it's still music.

[frickaline]

161. I used to like some rap, but I was never a huge fan ...still even I can see this one is pure genius:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UdoO9TwJc_M

some rap (or rap-ish) music I've liked:
Public Enemy
Paris
Beastie Boys (hillarious, love the lyrics xD)
Disposible Heroes of Hiphoprisy
MC 900 ft Jesus (yeah I'm pushing the definition now)

I think I might have to hear more of this asheru guy. I love that theme song.

[DBoon]

164. I don't understand rap

but given what my parents thought of Jimi Hendrix, I don't think I'm one to criticize

[woofless]

166. rap

The C is silent.

[Athens30603]

167. I personally own over 200 rap/hip hop LPs

Yes, LPs. But over the past couple of years I've been getting pretty exhaustedly tired of hip hop. For a while I was thinking that I hated hip hop and then I realized what I was really tired of was rapping as a vocal style. I still love many thousands of backing tracks. But rap vocals have started to get on my nerves.

Even so, rap vocals are, indeed, musical vocalizations.

[elshiva]

168. Don't know too much about rap, but I heard that it comes

from the blues tradition, like a talking blues. Some of Leadbelly's work is kind of a rhythmic Chant storytelling, like "Packing Up A Trunk." In that song he talks some of the lyrics about a woman packing her bags to leave her man and then he sings the refrain. This reminds me of some of the rap I've heard. However, I'm just a white girl living in a very white part of rural MD so I don't know a lot about rap. There was a good song that was a black rap about being from Baltimore they played on radio, which was great. That was some serious music and some serious truth.

[Danger Mouse]

171. There is some damn good rap out there if you know where to look.

Check out Sage Francis, El-P, Aesop Rock, and Buck 65.

[Taverner]

182. It's music - it just happens to focus and rhythm and cadence

As opposed to Melody, Counter Melody and Harmony.

I'm no big fan, but like all genres there have been one or two raps that I like.

Consider that many could have said Classical isn't music due to its simple rhythms and everything being 2/4 or 4/4 time.

[cemaphonic]

200. Leonard Bernstein told a great story about hosting some virtuoso Indian musicians

He took them to a performance of Mozart's C-Minor Mass, fully expecting them to be blown away by its awesomeness, but noticed midway through that they were looking restless and bored. Upon asking them what was wrong, they explained that they couldn't believe that Westerners went all gaga over such simple baby-rhythms. And all the complex harmony and motivic development didn't even register for them, because Indian music doesn't work that way.

[Sewsojm]

186. Agreed,

Rap Sucks, its not music , it Sucks plain and simple!!

[Amerigo Vespucci]

188. Gregg Allman, interviewed at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame:

...he was asked by an MTV reporter "What do you think of rap music," and I'm sure she felt the question would be greeted with a diplomatic response.

Allman paused for a minute, mumbled "Rhymes with CRAP" and walked away.

I live in a neighborhood that has a lot of "gangsta" assholes who like to drive down the street with their earth-shaker car stereos blasting rap, be it early morning or late at night or any time in between. Living here has made me see the wisdom in Allman's statement.

[flvegan]

189. The Beastie Boys are the embodiment of good music.

And yes, most of it is rap.

[Merrick]

190. Similar to Country: Lots of bad rap, but the existence of a handful...

of good ones prove that the genre itself isn't intrinsically barren or illegitimate. For example - the Dead Presidents, Mos Def, Beastie Boys.

same with country IMO as the country tunes Neil Young and Johnny Cash have done prove that it can be good if done right.

[Neoma]

191. Fett's Vette is music!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z9XTeeA43o

[Tikki]

195. To me this is..

rap....One of my very favorite songs..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbVVD9xRlyg

This song catches what is in So Cal as well as a Beach Boys' song....

Tikki

[Skittles]

196. sure it is

it's just not your kind of music

[PunkinPi]

199. boo. :PPPPP

that is all. :)

[BlooInBloo]

204. hahahaha!!!!

[Pushed To The Left]

209. Rap is music. It just happens to be a form of music you don't like.

I tend to like rock/alternative/metal better myself, but I do like some rap.

[Mutley]

212. Just because it doesn't suit your personal taste doesn't mean it isn't music.

I don't like Tide, but that doesn't mean it isn't laundry detergent.