A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly

[Dr. Strange]

I have become increasingly interested in examining Joss Whedon’s work from a feminist perspective since I had a conversation with another lesbian feminist sister at the International Feminist Summit about whether Joss was a feminist. I am really quite shocked by how readily Joss is accepted as a feminist, and that his works are widely considered to be feminist. I decided to start re-watching Buffy: The Vampire Slayer and also to watch Firefly and the movie Serenity.

I have to say that now that I have subjected myself to the horror that is Firefly, I really am beyond worried about how much men hate us, given that this was written by a man who calls himself a feminist.

I find much of Joss Whedon’s work to be heavily influenced by pornography, and pornographic humour. While I would argue that there are some aspects of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer that are feminist and progressive, there is much that isn’t and I find it highly problematic that there are many very woman-hating messages contained within a show that purports itself as feminism. But Firefly takes misogyny to a new level of terrifying. I am really, really worried that women can call the man who made this show a feminist.

more at http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

Way to go DU. You convinced me to watch Firefly and I like it. (So far; I still have three or four episodes to watch.) Now I find out it celebrates rape and other nasty stuff. I'm withholding everyone's paycheck this week. x(

[Deja Q]

1. So some wanker smoked crack before watching. That's his problem.

If he's referring to the episode "Shindig" (the one where prostitution is given a different slant), it's not about misogyny...

This is what happens when empty crap that parallels society becomes the norm. The shows that actually play with ideas are seen just as literally because the audience is too damn STUPID to think.

Anyone who takes a literal translation of "Firefly" into real life is a damn fool. 'nuff said.

Or, to be less cynical, may I recommend "Blake's 7" as an alternative to "Firefly".

[Dr. Strange]

2. Scary thing is...

she claims to have watched every episode twice and read the scripts. I don't think she smoked crack before watching, I think she just came into it with a very specific pair of glasses and interpreted everything through her vision.

I've only seen one episode of Blake's 7, and it was pretty cool, I have to admit.

[siligut]

3. Ok, in the lounge, sorry folks.

This stuff really went on; supposedly they stopped, but no real way of telling. Nazi scientists were brought over to the US to continue their research, to create the perfect soldier, and the perfect spy. Cruel and bad stuff was inflicted on children, those who had the IQ and propensity to form alternate personalities were used.

As far as Whedons’ work goes, I think he finds ways to inform, ways around censors. I liked the Firefly series and the movie Serenity.

[ThomCat]

4. I mostly agree with that journal review.

I kept hearing how great this show was, and how wonderful Joss Whedon was, so I watched a bunch of episodes.

The characters were all shallow caracatures. The men were hyper-masculine and the women were strictly secondary.

The supposed gender equality was token. To the extent that Zoe was obedient and supportive and often acted masculine it was okay that she was a woman with some authority. To the extent that Inara was powerful, it was only the power to give herself to men.

Some of the women who had real political or economic power in various episodes were very self-consciously masculine. It was like they were able to be powerful only by wrapping themselves in a very male, and violent gender role.

There was nothing in Firefly that stepped out of, or beyond gender roles and even nodded towards equality. It was a salute to the power and glory of gender roles.

You can probably tell that I didn't like it much. Outside of the sexism I thought it was a fairly uncreative mashing of westerns and sci-fi. I kept waiting to see something new and original.

Hypnotoad obviously disagrees, but instead of explaining why he simply insults anyone who doesn't like Firefly. Go figure. :eyes:

[BlueIris]

18. Yeah, the Inara character in particular is horrifying.

A female prostitute who has absolutely no issues whatsoever with her job. Hypocritcal male fantasy, much? Oh, wait, it's okay that her character is an obvious misogynist put-up job, because the "companions" in the "Firefly" universe are some of the most respected professionals around!

"Firefly" was also filled with bad writing/plotting. The only thing I like about it is that no one watched it.

[AnneD]

48. I thought of her as ...

a geisha with more power. There is a big difference between courtesan and prostitute-not in our time or culture-but in other times there have been.

What I enjoyed was how society on the margins was portrayed and enjoyed the SF musings. It was a refreshing change from Star Trek, Star Wars type future world view.

[arcadian]

21. The spaceship Serenity looks like a horse.

That is just stupid.

[wickerwoman]

74. But I think Callie is one of the best female characters on television

She smart and capable, keeps the entire ship running. She has a stereotypically male job (engineer) and totally wears the pants in her relationship with the doctor. And she's capable of being friends with other women without a lot of jealous, catty bullshit. She felt very real to me.

I wouldn't say Wash was hyper-masculine either... he pretty much let Zoe do whatever she wanted. And in the episode where Wash and Mal are abducted by the crazy German torturer, it's Zoe who puts together the posse to come and rescue him. The Shephard is hyper-masculine? The doctor?

Also, the smartest, butt-kickingist person in the whole show is a sixteen year old girl.

Granted, the companion thing was stupid... but the show only had one season. Who knows where they were going with it?

For sci-fi, the "shitkickers in space" angle is pretty innovative. It was done in Alien way back when, but most sci-fi in the past twenty years has been either super-polished utopian fantasy like Star Trek or army/military based like BSG. I liked the angle that even though we're out in space we still have some stuff to sort out. And I think if Firefly had had more time to develop on this theme it could have been something really special. Most show don't hit their stride until the third or fourth season anyway, so I think it's hard to judge.

[DarkTirade]

5. I've read this filth before.

This person is either a very determined troll, or someone who needs SERIOUS mental help.

If you read some of the comments more completely, you'll see that she actually REDEFINES the word 'rape' to be able to accuse pretty much every non-virgin male of being a rapist. Basically she says that ANY form of coercion makes it rape... even to the point of asking for sex when she wasn't already considering it. Seriously. Asking for sex is rape in her mind. In her mind, having ANY mitigating factor that could effect the woman's opinion means that she is incapable of making a rational choice, and therefore it's rape. (and you'll notice that it's only one way. In her mind only men are rapists, and women can't be.) You can also see it in the main post when she refers to prostitution as 'allowing women to chose their rapist', although she doesn't elaborate on that until you read through the comments. Because paying for something counts as a mitigating factor, and therefore in her mind is rape.

This person is not a feminist, this person is someone so full of hate that she's willing to denigrate other women just for a chance to get a cheap shot at men. There are REAL rape victims out there, but she'd rather cheapen what they've been through just so she can get a cheap shot at men in general. On top of that, in her mind, women apparently aren't capable of making rational decisions if there is any kind of mitigating factor whatsoever. No real feminist would deny a woman's ability to make her own choices like that.


*edit* Oh, and I totally forgot about this little gem...

Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.

I cannot even BEGIN to point out the wrongness of this.

Her entire paragraph is about how she doesn't personally know any black women and white men in a healthy relationship. So therefore Wash must be a rapist and abuser.

:wow:

[Dr. Strange]

7. The comment section was fascinating to say the least.

This person is not a feminist, this person is someone so full of hate that she's willing to denigrate other women just for a chance to get a cheap shot at men.

I kept reading it thinking, "This is exactly what someone like Limbaugh would write if he was trying to imitate what he thinks a feminist is." It's like all of the right-wing stereotypes of feminists put on display...but I think she really believes what she says.

[DarkTirade]

10. Yeah, that's why I included the 'troll' option...

because it's hard to think that someone who can write that eloquently can be so unable to string together a logical and/or reasonable flow to the world around them.

Really, the only options I can see are either A) their view of the world has been forcibly twisted via serious mental problems and/or serious environmental factors, or B) this person is purposely twisting their world view around for the purpose of internet trolling.

The really scary part is that other than the title of the review itself, it starts out seeming fairly reasonable... starts out sounding much like Thomcat's comments on why he didn't particularly like Firefly right above mine. But then once you get into it, it just gets twisted. And it's hard to pinpoint exactly where that happens... although I suppose the title was forewarning enough.

[nomorenomore08]

17. Agreed, but such "caricatures" exist for any point of view.

As I was sort of getting at in my post just below, crazy is crazy. One big pathology with different brand labels.

[nomorenomore08]

16. The anti-miscegenation aspect is just nuts. A "radical feminist" channelling George Wallace???

Seems to me that when a person goes far enough off the deep end, the distinctions between one ideology and another become meaningless. Just different names for the same things. For instance, you take Dworkin-esque feminism far enough, and it starts to seem just as misogynistic as medieval Christianity. Or here, we have an "empowered womyn" sounding like an old Southern racist.

[mainegreen]

6. People like that are the people who 'whitened' our food, brought prohibition

and removed all the good toys off the playground.

They sound like they are on your side, but make no mistake: they are the enemy. They have one goal: the complete and total elimination of freedom. And fun. Dont forget, they hate fun. And reality. God forbid we realize there is a reality.

Some people are just born thinking that a) they're smarter than everyone else, b) somehow they're telepathic and c) they know what's best for everyone.

[YankeyMCC]

29. Bingo

the fact is reality and a full life is full of imperfections and risks, although even those terms are subjectives one person's imperfection and risk is another's fun...as long as there's no harm to others let's just live life and let others do the same and ignore these 'holier-than-thous' who want to impose their own idea of what is right on the rest of us.

[Sheets of Easter]

44. There's a lot of that about. Even here.

Spot-on assessment, mainegreen! :toast:

[no name no slogan]

8. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

The beauty of the internet is that it gives every crank of every possible persuasion a venue to vent their theories, no matter how off they wall they seem.

Firefly was just an entertaining TV show. Some people can't see that, apparently.

[TZ]

9. I have not watched the show, but I think I can make some comments here

First of all, you have a mind of your own..You can certainly watch the show and form your own opinions. I would not let one persons opinion even make me FEEL guilty about watching and judging for myself. I am not into the mental nannies who dictate what I should watch or how I react. And if I happen to like something that someone thinks is "bad" well too FUCKING BAD. My opinion is MY opinion and I'll be damned if I let others judge me based on my personal preferences and enjoyments. If I wanted someone to dictate how I should think, I would join Pat Robertson's group!
Being progressive is, I think, about the ability to watch, evaluate and make a judgement and opinion based on independant thought and rationality.
Read a psychological breakdown of fairy tales sometime..You can find nasty stuff in anything if you dig hard enough.

[DarkTirade]

11. Hell, when you dig into fairy tales you usually find some CRAZY disturbing shit.

:P

[DS1]

43. see #42

;)

[NashVegas]

12. I Couldn't Watch Serenity

I never got into Firefly - not for any particular reason - but made a point of checking out Serenity. It didn't grab me right away, so I started fiddling on the comp and realized the sound track, alone, was amazingly violent. Violence and femininity generally don't mix.

[DarkTirade]

55. The Serenity soundtrack was a rather odd one

it flipped back and forth between the stuff that is downright unsettling and even a bit violent... to some incredibly beautiful melodies like these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=912bBoeTW_4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6xHKfBX2vY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cYF_sdE28w

I always make sure that last one I linked to gets played on my mp3 player when I'm skating... I just love the feel of gliding over the ice with that track playing. :) Also, cheesiest ending dialogue EVER during that track in the movie. Which is something Joss seems to be pretty good at. :P

"Storm's getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

That being said, I don't think anyone would try to claim that Firefly or Serenity were shining examples of feminism. They're adventure stories, and his attempt at dabbling in a future sci-fi universe based on the frontier era of our own history. And Serenity is a fairly harrowing adventure in particular. It gets pretty nasty at times. There are strong women characters, but that's just what Joss does. Also, the way he tends to show the strength of his characters is to put them in a bad situation and let them do their best. In Joss' work, the good guys tend to take quite a beating. And I don't mean physically. In all three of his shows, characters are put into situations that don't just let them be their best, they force them to. And sometimes it's not enough. Sometimes they don't come out squeaky clean. As in the case of Serenity, or season 5 and 7 of Buffy.

[Swede]

13. Whedon is the best thing that happened to TV.

Great characters,great storylines. This alecto person has a twisted view of reality.

[crimsonblue]

14. sometimes an apple is just an apple

or something like that.

[dropkickpa]

15. You're going to go on an anti-sci-fi anti porn wacko's word?

From her crazed diatribe

They also take on board passengers. There is Inara, a Companion (Joss Whedon’s euphemism for women in prostitution). She rents one of the ship’s shuttles. Simon, a doctor and his sister River. And a Shepherd (which means preacher), a black male character.

The first scene opens in a war with Mal and Zoe. Zoe runs around calling Mal ‘sir’ and taking orders off him. I roll my eyes. Not a good start.

Um, dude, Mal is Zoe's military superior, sir is the proper for of address.

I actually read most of her rant, and, beyond the fact that she did not understand ANY subtlety, she makes out EVERYTHING to be sexist and deliberately misinterprets scenes and actions to prove her point. If I asked her to pass me toast, she'd scream and yell about me being a tool of the patriarchy with my subservience to burnt bread or some such crazed shit.

The blog girl flat out says she hates men, thinks just about ALL heterosexual sex is rape, and is a bit twisted, she says in her comments section that she thinks that Joss Whedon is a wife-beating rapist. Seriously now?

[Dr. Strange]

22. Nah.

I just found it ironic that I started watching it due to the DU, only to find out how "evil" it is.

I'd love to see this blogger's take on the Lounge!

[TZ]

23. hehehe

Just imagine this blogger's take on YOU, Dr. Pev....You horrible evil man you...
:rofl:

[dropkickpa]

24. Oh man

She'd have a field day with us even if she went by the most innocuous threads!

[Taverner]

26. Wacko indeed - here's another gem from the eyes of a paranoid lunatic

http://allecto.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/men-are-really-really-fucking-dangerous/

[Mad_Dem_X]

27. This woman has MAJOR issues

She's scary. She wants all women to be afraid of men. No man whould *never* be alone with children? :wtf: :crazy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. So...

she's saying women should stay home and raise the babies?

:shrug:

[Taverner]

30. She is NO Feminist

She is to feminism what a fish is to a bicycle

[DarkTirade]

31. Funny how that works out, huh.

And she also believes that women are incapable of making their own decisions when it comes to sex.

[Frank Cannon]

19. The person who wrote that article would find peace in life...

if she would just accept that all males are disgusting and evil and deserve to die painful, horrible deaths.

[Dr. Strange]

36. Don't forget lesbians who use strap-ons.

It is on this basis that I will reject outright any defense of strap-on dildos. The strap-on is a phallus, it is used and manipulated as a phallus and the phallus is a weapon. I don’t believe that any amount of reinterpretation can undo the violent symbolism inherent in strap-ons.

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/17883.html

[lightningandsnow]

49. Good lord.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And, you know, strap ons apparently can be enjoyable for both sexes. There is a G-Spot in there...or a prostate, if you're a guy.

How is being penetrated violent, if you want to?

Oh yeah, you know what this person has in common with the religious right? An obsession with the kind of sex that people are having!

[DarkTirade]

51. If you want to. There's the crux.

This person doesn't believe women are capable of making their own decisions when it comes to sex.

Combine that with the other link someone posted here where she was talking about how women shouldn't leave children alone with men because they're 'dangerous'... that basically means that she believes women aren't capable of making their own decisions about sex AND they should stay home and raise the children.

Which pretty much puts her somewhere to the right of Jerry Falwell when it comes to women's issues...

[sarge43]

69. Worse than the kind of sex, the pervs are enjoying it. The horror. n/t

[sarge43]

20. Allow me to pick and choose my debate points

and I'll probably win.

Yup, Jayne and Mal rag on Kaylee. However, later in that episode Jayne runs a crude insult by Kaylee and Mal in no uncertain terms tells him to get lost or he'll have his head handed to him. Book remarks how protective Mal is. Also Book mentions Mal calling Inara a whore. Inara shrugs and answers, "I've called him worse."

In the episode "War Stories", Inara's customer is a woman, apparently a high ranking one and it's made very clear she didn't drop by for just coffee and a chat. Now, would allecto call this rape or by her bizarre standard only men rape? FWIW, I thought the dialog was quite subtle and insightful about women's POV.

[Taverner]

25. Just the rant of another anti-porn bigot

Look, I'm not going to debate whether Buffy was feminist or not. There is an empowerment angle - and Buffy was the first to work it into a primetime show. Is it Susan Faludi? Hell no - but its more than one expects from TV.

What bothers me is that the writer assumes all porn is anti-feminist. She's wrong, and more in league with the Fundies if she feels that way.

[DarkTirade]

32. I just realized who she reminds me of...

she's like a female version of Jack Thompson.

[PVnRT]

33. You know, after reading the links and comments

there are some serious idiots on the internet. I should have known that already, but damn.

It's one thing not to like the show, but to be deliberately obtuse in order to read whatever bullshit meaning you want into it - ridiculous.

[cemaphonic]

34. Her painfully long and detailed analysis of the episode with Mal's "wife" is especially illustrative

I mean, here you have an episode with a classic femme fatale, which as much as I love my film noir is a distinctly misogynist fantasy, (not to mention the whole aspect of Saffron being a sort of mirror of Mal, only more ruthless) and she gets all hung up on all the stupid shit that Jayne says. She totally misinterprets the whole (mostly humorous) emotional tenor of the first two acts is driven by the fact that Mal and crew find her culture and situation repulsive and unconscionable, but are unable to express that in a way that doesn't come of as rejecting her as a person.

And then, when Saffron is finally revealed as a cruel, manipulative, backstabbing, violent thief, the blogger celebrates this as empowerment, and sees the resolution as that of courageous, independent woman put in her place by a man. (I do somewhat agree with her about the overtly sexualized and violent aspect of the resolution, but again, this is classic film noir stuff.)

And her interpretation of the whole Zoe/Walsh dynamic is just bizarre. Zoe can keep Walsh in line with a raised eyebrow, and somehow, he's clearly a wife-beater?

As for the show itself, I found it enjoyable, but somewhat overrated. The Space Western format is a perfectly workable idea, but they often took the metaphor too far, with the cornpone dialogue, and the cattle rustling. And I never really bought that barbarian space tribe as credible.

[sarge43]

39. Yeah, Wash a wife-beater.

Even if he were so inclined (and he adored her), Zoe would have reduced him to ground round before he got his fist clinched. Hell, even Jayne was afraid of her.

[DarkTirade]

52. That's 'cause Jayne ain't gonna start a fair fight that he knows he's gonna lose.

:P

[sarge43]

68. Indeed. Who said Jayne was totally stupid.

;)

[DarkTirade]

76. ...

[davsand]

35. I dunno. Seems to me you can find an "ism" anywhere you want to see it

I liked Firefly AND Serenity both. Buffy was ok, from what I saw of it, but I wasn't LOOKING or anything to dislike in either series. I think you can probably pick up just about any work of fiction and find whatever "ism" you are looking for (racism, sexism, elitism--insert the "ism" here.)

Seemed to me that Firefly was pretty much based on a world where gender lines are kind of blurred--kinda like they were in the old west. Most of the places Serenity went to were primitive where survival was the fundamental priority. (What you have between your legs really isn't a big deal when somebody or something is trying to KILL you--ya know?)

The character of the companion (Inarra) doesn't really bother me too much, mostly because I think that being a "feminist" means freedom to choose for yourself. If you WANT to, (or make the choice to) have sex for money that is YOUR right just as it is not up to anyone else to tell you you HAVE to sell sex for money.

Buffy was SUPPOSED to be a "valley girl" sort of character--I guess maybe that reviewer must have missed that in the original movie where the character was established. (She kills one vampire by torching him with HAIRSPRAY, fer gawd's sakes!) The whole thing was about her becoming a vampire slayer rather than a useless bit of fluff.

IMO this is a fart in the bathtub--a lot of noise but no substance.



Laura

[Withywindle]

37. Oh man.

This really did the rounds of SF fandom online and was roundly mocked. The blogger's insistence on keeping her comments a "safe space" from all disagreement was the cherry on the sundae of head-desky hilarity. Just like religious nuts who have to keep their families "pure" of all sinful-world influences, it just makes me wonder how sound your beliefs are if disagreement has to be treated as a violent attack. "Demons" and "patriarchy" seem to act much the same way in those paranoid worldviews.

She comes off as someone who lives in such an echo chamber she's sabotaged her own ability to critique anything rationally, because she had no clue about SF subculture and history and has no idea which tropes are being referenced or satirized, so she sounds really ignorant.

Let's not even START with the crap about interracial relationships. :scared:

As for Inara, sure, the happy, unrepentant prostitute is a male fantasy. But it's also true that there have been a number of cultures where upscale courtesans had a LOT more education, power and influence, and personal freedom than the average "good" woman (housewife/mother) of the period, and so that archetype is attractive to women as well.

[Mad_Dem_X]

38. I agree - her silencing of any dissent

voids any point she may have made, because she is not open to debate. If you can't logically debate your views, they are probably not that solid.

She's the type that gives feminism a bad name.

[Chovexani]

58. Allecto IS INSANE

I have run into her all over fandom. SHE IS BATSHIT.

This is the problem when fandom stuff gets posted to mundanes. You get none of the backstory or the context and all of the wank.

[Withywindle]

61. Ah, she's a chronic offender.

I feel lucky to have missed her before. Yikes.

[leftofthedial]

40. what a load of horseshit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Does she think the term "Black Hole" sexist?

Maybe I'll go ask the "feminist" group.

[ismnotwasm]

50. Why dear?

I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself

[DS1]

42. shit-fuck bloggers, there's one for everything I enjoy

[MedleyMisty]

45. I love Joss Whedon

I'm a huge fan of Buffy and Angel and Firefly. I see nothing sexist in any of them, and I am pretty easy to trigger when it comes to female exploitation - for instance, although I certainly do not want to restrict anyone else's access to or ability to make an independent decision to participate in porn, I am thoroughly anti-porn in my personal life. And there was a time in my life when I would pick up a blade and take it out on myself after seeing exploitative images of women and being made to feel like I was just an object that existed for the pleasure of others and not a real person.

Whedon's stuff has never made me feel that way. Dude, come on - Buffy kicks ass.

[BreweryYardRat]

46. I've never really liked Whedon's work.

He has the occasional good idea, but his writing isn't particularly clever or funny. Most of the jokes fall flat. There's also some seriously tasteless bits present, and his villains often fall back on cliches.

If you want specifics, I can respond to those.

[DarkTirade]

54. Hey, you're entitle to your own (wrong) opinions.

I keed, I keed. :P

Seriously, I can't argue with you on any of those points other than perhaps the 'clever or funny' bit, as both are subjective... but I still like most of his stuff anyway. Just a matter of personal opinion. :)

[Mojambo]

47. Just because someone is a feminist (and Whedon absolutely is) doesn't mean all of your work

has to be infused with feminist thought.

Firefly is what it is, a science fiction/western.

Buffy is all about female empowerment though, and entertaining as all get out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. just cos you call yourself a feminist doesnt exclude you from being crazy

and narrow minded

[DarkTirade]

56. I think this speech shows Joss' ideas on gender equality pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q6o4P1zTOM

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. There is no accounting for taste or sense of humor. It is as personal

and individualized as the steps that each human takes on the path of life.

[Chovexani]

59. Hey, you guys? Can I let you in on something?

The woman who wrote this essay is a batshit crazy self-proclaimed BNF (Big Name Fan). She's a known wanker in fandom circles. No one except her equally batshit crazy fangirls listens to anything she says in her tl;dr essays.

Mostly we point and laugh.

[DarkTirade]

67. This shit's crazy enough that I find it hard to laugh at.

[dysfunctional press]

60. some hard-core feminists think that ALL (hetero) sex is rape...

:crazy:

[Mad_Dem_X]

64. That's what I completely do not get

Like a woman would never *seriously* want to have sex with a man? Um, not even to become pregnant? Maybe we enjoy having sex with men? I truly don't get this.

[Frank Cannon]

66. The women who think that DON'T want to have sex with a man

But they shouldn't assume that none do.



"I'll take 'The rapists' for 300, Trebek!"

[WildEyedLiberal]

62. So-called "radical feminists" and right-wing misogynists both think they know what's best for me

Both think that I'm so feeble-minded and delicate that I just can't be trusted to make my own rational decisions or have my own personal preferences because they are inevitably tainted by (take your pick) the Devil/sin/demons or the patriarchy/men/society, which in either case are pervasive and infect my worldview without my direct conscious knowledge. Since I am inevitably corrupted by these horrible influences and thus incapable of REALLY knowing what I want/what's best for me, I need to be shut away from the world, ensconced safely away from any "mitigating factor" that might sway my weak mind into accepting something that, in truth, degrades and objectifies me.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

What especially pisses me off when reading these diatribes is the insistence that any strong woman character isn't really a strong woman because she's "acting masculine." Excuse me? Women are delicate little flowers who are inherently opposed to ass-kicking, name-taking, and being a badass? Fuck that! I will kick your ass, take your name, and make you like it. That's how I am, that's how I've always been, and it's probably how I'll always be. I was the little girl who played with boy toys and GI Joes and read war books because I DID have wonderful parents who never tried to enforce a rigid gender role on me and let me follow whatever interests I developed naturally. Now I'm the woman who still reads war books and loves movies like Lord of the Rings and 300 and Gladiator and likes to go target shooting and has considered a career in law enforcement. But according to assholes like the author of the article above, I'm not a strong woman because I'm "acting masculine." But yet if I were more family-oriented and wanted a husband and kids and a white picket fence, I'd be an oppressed tool of the patriarchy. So what the fuck kind of narrow rigid lifestyle, exactly, ARE women allowed to lead and actually be considered independent women by the radfem contingent? I don't know, but I DO know I want no fucking part of it. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on, and fuck anyone who tries to tell me what I should and shouldn't do "as a woman," because I AM a feminist and in my book that means equality and freedom, not some nasty little checklist of things I'm not allowed to do, say, or enjoy.

[Mad_Dem_X]

65. It's a double-edged sword, isn't it?

Act too "girly," and you're a typical helpless female who needs a man to do everything for her; act too tough and independent, you're acting like a man. :shrug:

[Withywindle]

70. Oh, but women are naturally morally superior beings, you see.

Without patriarchy, we wouldn't even have dreamed of violence because that's only a male thing and we'd all make love in lavender-labia'd waves of pure womon-energy with no nasty genitals involved.

We're nurturers, you see.


If there were only women in the world there'd be no war ever.

:puke:

(You have only to see how vile and hateful allecto acts towards women who disagree with her to see what a crock of shit THAT notion is.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

63. Oh, this is just reprehensible

I actually started perusing this insane blog and came upon this post:

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/39173.html

Clementine, you are an incredible, brave and amazing woman to stand up and put yourself out there for the rights of women and children everywhere. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your courage, strength and commitment to women's social, emotional and political integrity. If only more women had your courage. "I am very much pro-life. I'm pro the life of women who have lived for years as opposed to cells that have lived for weeks. I am in favour of women having babies when and if they choose them." I am 100% with you there, sister. Incidentally, I am a lesbian separatist, who chooses to have nothing to do with men and their supremacy. I have found that refusing intercourse with men is an even better way than condoms, of ensuring that one does not get pregnant. Instead of 'birth contol' which is usually risky to women's health and never 100% effective, I believe that the pro-lifers would be better served by promoting lesbianism. Just my two cents.

That is beyond disgusting and NO different from the right-wing fundies who run "ministries" to "help" gay people "become" straight. You can no more "promote lesbianism" than you can "promote heterosexuality" and the suggestion implies that sexual orientation is a personal choice that can be made on a whim to support a particular lifestyle or political agenda, which is the EXACT SAME LOAD OF BIGOTED FILTH gay people have been fighting from the right-wing for 30+ years. This woman is either a) a clueless, delusional member of an EXTREME fringe minority living in an echo chamber utterly divorced from reality or b) a right-wing troll trying to rile people up against feminism/gay rights. DO NOT fall into her trap and take her seriously.

[Withywindle]

71. I read more of it too and had a similar thought.

It's not the first time I've heard of women "choosing" to be lesbian for political reasons, but it's just the flip side of the "ex-gay" thing: can't imagine it making you happy for much of a lifetime unless (a) you're actually bisexual and have a strong attraction to women you can build on (and as a bi person I've found it's actually much more possible to develop a capacity for attraction than to shut one down) or (b) you don't have much of a sex drive at all.

Otherwise, I hate to say, the crotch-brain leads us ALL around sooner or later. Not just men, oh no.

But since her blog is full of how much she hates and fears men, she's certainly not "voting her hopes instead of her fears," now is she? Most lesbians I know don't hate men, certainly aren't terrified of them--they just don't think about 'em much, 'cause they don't have to!

[WildEyedLiberal]

73. Yeah she is not like any real life lesbian I've ever met

Maybe because real lesbians don't cherry pick their sexual orientation to serve some strategic purpose in a bullshit gender war :eyes:

I can't decide if she's a right-wing agitator trying to make feminists and lesbians look militant and unreasonable, or if she really is just truly batshit.

[sarge43]

77. I'll vote batshit.

Most agitators and trolls are much more cunning and have at least a nodding acquaintance with rationality. She's somewhere beyond the Third Cataract of Denial.

[Mobius]

72. How the HELL does Firefly

advocate rape? Do you watch it, really???? Cite me one episode and I'll refute it guaranteed.

[DarkTirade]

75. The OP isn't agreeing with the article, just being sarcastic.

The person who he linked to is the crazy one, not him. :)

[Dr. Strange]

78. Well, certainly not the same brand of crazy.

:patriot: