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So...years ago. My dad asked me for a quick read. I gave him "The Old Man and the Sea"

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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 03:00 AM
Original message
So...years ago. My dad asked me for a quick read. I gave him "The Old Man and the Sea"
He thought it was a hopeless, nonredeemable story.

He was shaken by it..so that's good but....

Shit.

He said "What's the point of the story that is hopeless from the beginning?"

And I was going to guide him to read "The Pearl" next.

Hey it's just a thin little book...c'mon.

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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. How bout something with a happy ending. I don't know anything about
"The pearl" but I don't like books that are one great big fucking tragedy. Now I love murders and mass killers and true crime stories but they don't make me sad. Strange.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Happily Ever After" is a contrived Disney invention.
Think about it. Most fiction considered Classic or Great does not end on an upbeat note.

Even most "Fairy Tales" in their original versions were very bleak and dark.

A movie version of "Moby Dick" today would probably end with Ahab riding unhurt on the beast ala "Whalerider" and through this transforming experience becoming a passionate protector of whales.
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. And even the Disnified version is a fraud.
Countless films have a contrived "boy gets girl" happy ending, with the credits rolling over the hero and "his woman" locked in a passionate embrace, promising a future of untold connubial bliss. Then the sequel rolls around and the same hero is chasing another girl. What the hell happened to "happily every after?" You mean, after all the tribulations the couple endured in the first movie, after the forge of mortal peril and emotional turmoil welded them into a single, inseparable, soul, all the hero wanted was a quick fuck and then onto the next chick? Well great, that certainly makes a mockery out of any emotional capital I might have invested in the first movie.

So even Hollywood's happy endings eventually reveal themselves to be shallow and meaningless.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sleeping Beauty...ten years later.
"Could you...for once pick up your smelly fucking socks!"
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briv1016 Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. My English teacher actually found a way to frame the ending of "The Pearl" as happy.
Since the husband and wife ended up walking next to each other instead the wife walking behind the husband, it showed that they were equals. But that’s a stretch considering. I'll stop there to prevent a spoiler alert.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'd forgotten that. I don't know that I'd frame that as happy though.
Maybe he just wanted to be sure she didn't bash his head in from behind.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Did you get your training in Guantanamo Naval Base?
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 09:30 AM by DS1
Those books are fucking torture. Hell on Earth. How could you do that to your own father?


What the hell is wrong with you?
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. No V.C. Andrews is torture. I don't think I've read anything more wretched in my life.
"Flowers in the Attic" for anyone not familiar with the name.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. Best quick read that will stay with you a lifetime:
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde,
by Robert Louis Stevenson.

You can read it in a lunch-hour.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E6WTS56SL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I was absolutely enthralled with "The Great Gatsby" which also has no Hollywood Ending.
Not just the story, but the beautiful way it was told.

Just a random clip...

I began to like New York, the racy, adventurous feel of it at night, and the satisfaction that the constant flicker of men and women and machines gives to the restless eye. I liked to walk up Fifth Avenue and pick out romantic women from the crowd and imagine that in a few minutes I was going to enter into their lives, and no one would ever know or disapprove. Sometimes, in my mind, I followed them to their apartments on the corners of hidden streets, and they turned and smiled back at me before they faded through a door into warm darkness. At the enchanted metropolitan twilight I felt a haunting loneliness sometimes, and felt it in others—poor young clerks who loitered in front of windows waiting until it was time for a solitary restaurant dinner—young clerks in the dusk, wasting the most poignant moments of night and life.

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sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I've seen 2 or 3 of the film versions
and I'll have to make a point of reading the book. I always like the story.

There was a made for tv version way back about 30 or 40 years ago that had Jack Palance in the lead role. He was fantastic! Especially as Mr. Hyde. I can't imagine a better Mr. Hyde.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It is an AMAZING piece of writing.
None of the film versions do justice to the
internal struggle of Dr. Jekyll.

Here's a taste indicative of the description and humor of Mr. Stevenson:

"She had an evil face, smoothed by hypocrisy; but her manners were excellent."
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why not "the Pet Goat?" nt
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. How about Christabel.
Excerpt: (It's in the public domain)

'Tis the middle of night by the castle clock,
And the owls have awakened the crowing cock ;
Tu--whit !-- -- Tu--whoo !
And hark, again ! the crowing cock,
How drowsily it crew.

Sir Leoline, the Baron rich,
Hath a toothless mastiff bitch ;
From her kennel beneath the rock
She maketh answer to the clock,
Four for the quarters, and twelve for the hour ;
Ever and aye, by shine and shower,
Sixteen short howls, not over loud ;
Some say, she sees my lady's shroud.

Is the night chilly and dark ?
The night is chilly, but not dark.
The thin gray cloud is spread on high,
It covers but not hides the sky.
The moon is behind, and at the full ;
And yet she looks both small and dull.
The night is chill, the cloud is gray :
'Tis a month before the month of May,
And the Spring comes slowly up this way.

The lovely lady, Christabel,
Whom her father loves so well,
What makes her in the wood so late,
A furlong from the castle gate ?
She had dreams all yesternight
Of her own betrothéd knight ;
And she in the midnight wood will pray
For the weal of her lover that's far away.

She stole along, she nothing spoke,
The sighs she heaved were soft and low,
And naught was green upon the oak
But moss and rarest misletoe :
She kneels beneath the huge oak tree,
And in silence prayeth she.

The lady sprang up suddenly,
The lovely lady, Christabel !
It moaned as near, as near can be,
But what it is she cannot tell.--
On the other side it seems to be,
Of the huge, broad-breasted, old oak tree.

The night is chill ; the forest bare ;
Is it the wind that moaneth bleak ?
There is not wind enough in the air
To move away the ringlet curl
From the lovely lady's cheek--
There is not wind enough to twirl
The one red leaf, the last of its clan,
That dances as often as dance it can,
Hanging so light, and hanging so high,
On the topmost twig that looks up at the sky.

Hush, beating heart of Christabel !
Jesu, Maria, shield her well !
She folded her arms beneath her cloak,
And stole to the other side of the oak.
What sees she there ?
There she sees a damsel bright,
Dressed in a silken robe of white,
That shadowy in the moonlight shone :
The neck that made that white robe wan,
Her stately neck, and arms were bare ;
Her blue-veined feet unsandal'd were ;
And wildly glittered here and there
The gems entangled in her hair.
I guess, 'twas frightful there to see
A lady so richly clad as she--
Beautiful exceedingly !

Mary mother, save me now !
(Said Christabel,) And who art thou ?

The lady strange made answer meet,
And her voice was faint and sweet :--
Have pity on my sore distress,
I scarce can speak for weariness :
Stretch forth thy hand, and have no fear !
Said Christabel, How camest thou here ?
And the lady, whose voice was faint and sweet,
Did thus pursue her answer meet :--

My sire is of a noble line,
And my name is Geraldine :
Five warriors seized me yestermorn,
Me, even me, a maid forlorn :
They choked my cries with force and fright,
And tied me on a palfrey white.
The palfrey was as fleet as wind,
And they rode furiously behind.
They spurred amain, their steeds were white :
And once we crossed the shade of night.
As sure as Heaven shall rescue me,
I have no thought what men they be ;
Nor do I know how long it is
(For I have lain entranced, I wis)
Since one, the tallest of the five,
Took me from the palfrey's back,
A weary woman, scarce alive.
Some muttered words his comrades spoke :
He placed me underneath this oak ;
He swore they would return with haste ;
Whither they went I cannot tell--
I thought I heard, some minutes past,
Sounds as of a castle bell.
Stretch forth thy hand (thus ended she),
And help a wretched maid to flee.

Then Christabel stretched forth her hand,
And comforted fair Geraldine :
O well, bright dame ! may you command
The service of Sir Leoline ;
And gladly our stout chivalry
Will he send forth and friends withal
To guide and guard you safe and free
Home to your noble father's hall.

She rose : and forth with steps they passed
That strove to be, and were not, fast.
Her gracious stars the lady blest,
And thus spake on sweet Christabel :
All our household are at rest,
The hall is silent as the cell ;
Sir Leoline is weak in health,
And may not well awakened be,
But we will move as if in stealth,
And I beseech your courtesy,
This night, to share your couch with me.

They crossed the moat, and Christabel
Took the key that fitted well ;
A little door she opened straight,
All in the middle of the gate ;
The gate that was ironed within and without,
Where an army in battle array had marched out.
The lady sank, belike through pain,
And Christabel with might and main
Lifted her up, a weary weight,
Over the threshold of the gate :
Then the lady rose again,
And moved, as she were not in pain.

So free from danger, free from fear,
They crossed the court : right glad they were.
And Christabel devoutly cried
To the Lady by her side,
Praise we the Virgin all divine
Who hath rescued thee from thy distress !
Alas, alas ! said Geraldine,
I cannot speak for weariness.
So free from danger, free from fear,
They crossed the court : right glad they were.

Outside her kennel, the mastiff old
Lay fast asleep, in moonshine cold.
The mastiff old did not awake,
Yet she an angry moan did make !
And what can ail the mastiff bitch ?
Never till now she uttered yell
Beneath the eye of Christabel.
Perhaps it is the owlet's scritch :
For what can aid the mastiff bitch ?

They passed the hall, that echoes still,
Pass as lightly as you will !
The brands were flat, the brands were dying,
Amid their own white ashes lying ;
But when the lady passed, there came
A tongue of light, a fit of flame ;
And Christabel saw the lady's eye,
And nothing else saw she thereby,
Save the boss of the shield of Sir Leoline tall,
Which hung in a murky old niche in the wall.
O softly tread, said Christabel,
My father seldom sleepeth well.

Sweet Christabel her feet doth bare,
And jealous of the listening air
They steal their way from stair to stair,
Now in glimmer, and now in gloom,
And now they pass the Baron's room,
As still as death, with stifled breath !
And now have reached her chamber door ;
And now doth Geraldine press down
The rushes of the chamber floor.

The moon shines dim in the open air,
And not a moonbeam enters here.
But they without its light can see
The chamber carved so curiously,
Carved with figures strange and sweet,
All made out of the carver's brain,
For a lady's chamber meet :
The lamp with twofold silver chain
Is fastened to an angel's feet.

The silver lamp burns dead and dim ;
But Christabel the lamp will trim.
She trimmed the lamp, and made it bright,
And left it swinging to and fro,
While Geraldine, in wretched plight,
Sank down upon the floor below.

O weary lady, Geraldine,
I pray you, drink this cordial wine !
It is a wine of virtuous powers ;
My mother made it of wild flowers.

And will your mother pity me,
Who am a maiden most forlorn ?
Christabel answered--Woe is me !
She died the hour that I was born.
I have heard the gray-haired friar tell
How on her death-bed she did say,
That she should hear the castle-bell
Strike twelve upon my wedding-day.
O mother dear ! that thou wert here !
I would, said Geraldine, she were !

But soon with altered voice, said she--
`Off, wandering mother ! Peak and pine !
I have power to bid thee flee.'
Alas ! what ails poor Geraldine ?
Why stares she with unsettled eye ?
Can she the bodiless dead espy ?
And why with hollow voice cries she,
`Off, woman, off ! this hour is mine--
Though thou her guardian spirit be,
Off, woman. off ! 'tis given to me.'

Then Christabel knelt by the lady's side,
And raised to heaven her eyes so blue--
Alas ! said she, this ghastly ride--
Dear lady ! it hath wildered you !
The lady wiped her moist cold brow,
And faintly said, `'Tis over now !'


It gets better from there. http://etext.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Christabel.html

I love Coleridge.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. That's not going to end well...is it?
:D
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Nobody knows...
Coleridge didn't write an ending for it...it ends at the end of part II...Sir Leoline falls for Geraldine and a messenger is sent (behind Leoline's back) to find help from neighboring lands and investigate Geraldine's claims; presumably parts III and IV would have been the travels of the messenger, the rallying of armies against Geraldine and the confrontation. Coleridge never wrote another word on it that we know of, only that he conceived it as a four-act poem. Thus, it ends at its' darkest moment, possibly the darkest moment in the history of English literature...an ultimate (if possibly temporary) triumph of evil over good.

The name "Christabel" is archaic English for "Voice of Christ"...it's not a coincidence that the character is struck mute; ironic (or perhaps appropriate) that the verbose Coleridge was confronted with writer's block and a dread of the work in the middle of it.

He took a hiatus at the end of part one (of which the posted is approximately 1/4) of two years before writing part II. He described the writing of Christabel as draining and complained to friends in correspondence that it was killing him...literally. He was a laudanum addict and biographers theorize that he wrote specifically of his opium "visions". His greatest works: Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Kublai Khan, and Christabel correspond to the periods of greatest tumult in his life and probably also his periods of greatest usage.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. But...Geraldine is a f'ing vengeful Corpse!!!!
Am I right?

Did I miss something??
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. A vampiric lesbian succubus?
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 06:44 PM by Chan790
A demon or possibly a tree spirit...the manifestation of Satan, ghost of a dead vengeful love, personification of the papalcy, or the anti-christ. Never really clear...it's less important who or what Geraldine is than what her effect on Christabel is. Christabel is the personification of ultimate chaste good. Geraldine dominates her completely, emotionally and sexually. Conquers her and steals everything of value in her life.

Part of its' terror is that more is left to your imagination than answered. It's hard to make sense of 1/2 a poem. Different people have interpreted it as:

*a polemic against religion and Catholicism specifically.

*an early work of proto-feminism. (Self-empowered-and-sexual Geraldine takes what she needs in the world from pathetic virginal Christabel weighed down by obedience to man and God.)

*a piece of misogynistic trash.

*a bad piece of erotic fiction from the addled-mind of a dying pervert.

*being told from the negativist POV of a biased narrator. (That is...Christabel is the villain, imparting a false supernaturalism to ordinary events and positing Geraldine as evil, jealous that her widower father has found new love and she is no longer the center of his attentions.)

*a parable for vigilance against letting evil into your life naively.

*a work of gothic horror comparable to that of Coleridge's cohort and friend Mary Shelley (to whom the poem is supposedly dedicated. Apocryphally, it came from the same night of ghost stories as Frankenstein. Frankenstein in-turn contains allusions and references to Rime.)

*a suggestive poem about the dynamic between Dominant Geraldine and submissive Christabel. (and role-reversal at that as in most D/s relationships as much or more of the power (that of consent) is held by the submissive than vice-versa.)

* a love-letter to (Coleridge's) estranged wife.

*Dozens of other theories...and any and all combination of the above.

Read the poem, it's only 207 pages of verse and it's all online. You could read it in an hour easily. Form your own theory, it's equally-valid as mine or Harold Bloom's or Camille Paglia's or Henry James or Mary Shelley's or William Wordsworth's or Naomi Wolf's or anybody else's analysis of the piece. The poem is used in many introductory-level comparative literature courses precisely because there are so many "right" answers and no "wrong" ones. (I know, I should have been an English teacher.)

Edit: formatting to make easier to read.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. He may prefer "Jonathan Livingston Seagull"
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Oh...He'd of hated that. He probably would have enjoyed "Illusions" though
That's also by Richard Bach.

He really didn't hate "The Old Man and the Sea" as much as I gave the first impression though.

He mentioned it often after that.

And he would have "gotten" the Hemingway response to

Q: "Why did the chicken cross the road?"
A: "To die. In the rain."





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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Would he have liked "Our Town?" or Lewis' Main Street?" or even Steinbeck?
Edited on Thu Jul-10-08 12:44 PM by tigereye
I'm sure there are some other books and short stories from that time period that are a bit more hopeful, too. Failing that there's always Anais NIn! ;)


This raises interesting questions about whether books (short or long) are required to be hopeful and whether many books written in the early part of the 20th century/ or between/ after the World Wars emphasize hope in the face of great adversity...


One of the reasons I love Barbara KIngsolver's novels is there seems to be some hope mixed in with all the adversity and some wonderful strength and breadth of mind that the characters show.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. His father forced him to quit school out of spite. He always sided with the underdog.
He had read "The Grapes of Wrath" and always respected Henry Fonda for his portrayal of Tom Joad and other Fonda roles...which were, nearly always, socially aware movies.

My father had an amazing intellect, there was probably no limit to what he could have achieved if he'd have been given half the chance. But then WWII happened, a family to support happened, and 40+ years of soul crushing work in a steel mill happened.

He had a touch of meanness in him. I've got to admit that...but that tendency didn't run very deep.

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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I don't think we always realize how tough some of our parents had it
(not that we don't in our own ways) - but I think it was so much harder then than it is now to follow your spirit.



I think roles were so proscribed back then - and taking care of family meant that people really had to limit their creativity in more ways.


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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The children of the depression who then fought back facism were amazing,
There is a resolve there in nearly every one of them that is every bit as admirable as that of the so called "founding fathers."

Those who remain anyway. There's so few of them now. :cry:
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. that book dragged
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. It's depressing as hell. All of Hemmingway's work is.
I can't bring myself to read much of it.

But he had a very interesting writing style.

A very distinctive "voice."
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